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u forget thats not just terrans who will struggle with queens
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On May 10 2012 13:44 sc14s wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 13:43 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 13:40 emjaytron wrote:
^^ yeah I can still see 35 siege tank damage being handy even at 0-0, if you can set them up and kite back, the protoss army does tend to clump up narrowly when chasing bio. And -4 damage from zealot armor at 3-3 isn't going to be nearly as big a deal due to the high burst damage of tanks compared to 6+3 attack marines Chargelots close the distance too fast to tanks / the terran army while also beeing able to significantly withstand siege tank fire. thats the thing though.. good T will target fire with their siege tanks. Have you ever watched 3-4 tanks target fire collosi?
Its basically impossible to kite well enough , dodge storm and also focus fire your tanks on all their shots. Siege Tanks will allways hit some part of your army which is not a good idea .
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On May 10 2012 13:55 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 13:48 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 13:43 Inty wrote:On May 10 2012 13:35 sc14s wrote:On May 10 2012 13:32 doffe wrote:On May 10 2012 13:23 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 13:19 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 13:12 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 13:10 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 13:05 m!st wrote:
[quote]
you didnt answer most of my question. Yes they are more expensive, but they are the similar to a colossi (cost wise) and I was discussing a way for terrans to spend all their gas late game. I'm sure a large seeker missile hit on my army would be as damaging as a storm on yours.....and the argument that I would just feedback the ravens is just like saying "why get HTs, you will just snipe them". if your floating 2K gas, why not add some high tech units, Zerg and Protoss do :D Its not . Siege Tanks deal have bigger Splash than Seeker Missiles . At best the first target gets hit for 100 , 1-2 targets get hit for 50 and 2-3 get hit for 25. Seeker Missile is good against Air Units since they stack up easily but against ground its just bad. Why not add tanks then, Its very hard to engage a terran force backed up by seige tanks. Because Sieged tanks don't move .... . The late Terran army need to avoid the masses of AOE Protoss has with kiting. Sieged tanks kind of not move .... . I mean they barely have more HP then Marauders and can't be healed as easily. They dont need to move if you engage properly, you can put them behind your army and kite back to the safety of seige tanks. There has to be units other than MMMVG to use against protoss late game. Instead of rejecting every unit except those, try to work out a way to use units with insane splash damage late game. the problem is that chargelots make siegetanks costinefficient due to splash on own units. You can try to use them all you want but as long as chargelots autoconnect and siegetanks splash friendlies I doubt they will be implented other then in a few timing attacks or maybe to defend locations where your army is not. And the second issue is upgrades. While the toss army share upgrades across the board a few 0-0 siegetanks wont do much against 3-3 armies. And upgrading both mech and bio is not realistic when the mechuse is so limited. so so wrong <.< i've seen plenty of games from MKP and MVP in particular where they work wonders.. so i have to completely disagree with you considering those two are certainly some of the top Ts in the world. Seige tanks are good against protoss in the early to mid game before charge and templar colossi, and archons are present. It is also before protoss begins to get a lot of ground upgrades and everyone is at 0-0 maybe 1-1. After this it becomes unfeasible to upgrade air attack, bio, and mech upgrades while getting vikings and medivacs meaning your tanks will be severely out upgraded. Add to that the fact that chargelots auto hit your army causing your tanks to do more aoe to your army(dying easier to storm/colossi) you end up doing more harm than good with tanks. The supply/cost is better used on vikings and ghosts. These are the reasons why pro players( including mvp and mkp) only get tanks for certain 1-1-1 builds (including expo into 1-1-1) and then stop producing as they transition into 3 base economy. They have the same range as colossi yeah? if so couldn't your bio deal with zeals while tanks and vikings deal with colossi? seems like they both fit a similar role but siege tanks are more fragile if you loose the battle, cant run away very easily. there has to be a way use your gas, whether it be more upgrades for your existing units, or upgrades and higher tech units. I guess Terran will keep complaining until a Pro figures out a way to use units out of the standard composition(which is fair enough :D) There was a time just about everything was used not just MMMGV. It just complely died out because outside of timing pushes MMMVG is by far stronger then anything you can build. Everybody plays it in later stages . I would like to do anything then MMMVG but after losing countless games with non-MMMVG i just resigned .
I know its the standard for a reason, if we didnt go colossi/storm/chargelot we wouldnt win either. But there has to be a way to supplement your composition with something else. Im talking about your buildup of gas when your bio is easily replenishable, there has to be something to put in.
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Queen range is way over the top :'(
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So soonish as in in the next few days? xDD. I wonder when this will take place for Korea. Before or after GSL finals?
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On May 10 2012 14:00 m!st wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 13:55 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 13:48 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 13:43 Inty wrote:On May 10 2012 13:35 sc14s wrote:On May 10 2012 13:32 doffe wrote:On May 10 2012 13:23 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 13:19 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 13:12 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 13:10 s3rp wrote:
[quote]
Its not . Siege Tanks deal have bigger Splash than Seeker Missiles . At best the first target gets hit for 100 , 1-2 targets get hit for 50 and 2-3 get hit for 25. Seeker Missile is good against Air Units since they stack up easily but against ground its just bad.
Why not add tanks then, Its very hard to engage a terran force backed up by seige tanks. Because Sieged tanks don't move .... . The late Terran army need to avoid the masses of AOE Protoss has with kiting. Sieged tanks kind of not move .... . I mean they barely have more HP then Marauders and can't be healed as easily. They dont need to move if you engage properly, you can put them behind your army and kite back to the safety of seige tanks. There has to be units other than MMMVG to use against protoss late game. Instead of rejecting every unit except those, try to work out a way to use units with insane splash damage late game. the problem is that chargelots make siegetanks costinefficient due to splash on own units. You can try to use them all you want but as long as chargelots autoconnect and siegetanks splash friendlies I doubt they will be implented other then in a few timing attacks or maybe to defend locations where your army is not. And the second issue is upgrades. While the toss army share upgrades across the board a few 0-0 siegetanks wont do much against 3-3 armies. And upgrading both mech and bio is not realistic when the mechuse is so limited. so so wrong <.< i've seen plenty of games from MKP and MVP in particular where they work wonders.. so i have to completely disagree with you considering those two are certainly some of the top Ts in the world. Seige tanks are good against protoss in the early to mid game before charge and templar colossi, and archons are present. It is also before protoss begins to get a lot of ground upgrades and everyone is at 0-0 maybe 1-1. After this it becomes unfeasible to upgrade air attack, bio, and mech upgrades while getting vikings and medivacs meaning your tanks will be severely out upgraded. Add to that the fact that chargelots auto hit your army causing your tanks to do more aoe to your army(dying easier to storm/colossi) you end up doing more harm than good with tanks. The supply/cost is better used on vikings and ghosts. These are the reasons why pro players( including mvp and mkp) only get tanks for certain 1-1-1 builds (including expo into 1-1-1) and then stop producing as they transition into 3 base economy. They have the same range as colossi yeah? if so couldn't your bio deal with zeals while tanks and vikings deal with colossi? seems like they both fit a similar role but siege tanks are more fragile if you loose the battle, cant run away very easily. there has to be a way use your gas, whether it be more upgrades for your existing units, or upgrades and higher tech units. I guess Terran will keep complaining until a Pro figures out a way to use units out of the standard composition(which is fair enough :D) There was a time just about everything was used not just MMMGV. It just complely died out because outside of timing pushes MMMVG is by far stronger then anything you can build. Everybody plays it in later stages . I would like to do anything then MMMVG but after losing countless games with non-MMMVG i just resigned . I know its the standard for a reason, if we didnt go colossi/storm/chargelot we wouldnt win either. But there has to be a way to supplement your composition with something else. Im talking about your buildup of gas when your bio is easily replenishable, there has to be something to put in.
Anything but Bio is not cost effecient enough against Warpgate units considering how slow it rebuilds. Warpgate units trade well with high tech Terran units but rebuild so much faster. I mean most of those units do ok in fights ( but not any better than Bio ) while also not rebuilding as fast. You can add in stuff but it just doesn't make your army any stronger. In fact you if add in bad upgraded stuff it weakens your army considerably.
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On May 10 2012 13:55 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 13:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 10 2012 13:52 VPFaith wrote:On May 10 2012 13:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 10 2012 13:41 sc14s wrote:On May 10 2012 13:38 VPFaith wrote:On May 10 2012 13:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 10 2012 13:23 VPFaith wrote:
Again I am really disappointed in Blizzard's decision of not nerfing Terran...
1. Increase bunker build time to 60-70 seconds.
2. Increase Ghost Build cost to 300 min - 150 gas
3. Increase Queen starting energy to 50 - 75
4. Increase Raven build cost to 300 min - 300 gas
5. Increase Tech lab build time to 50 seconds
6. Decrease Collosus build time to 50 seconds
7. Decrease Protoss shield upgrade to 100- 100
8. Decrease Sentry cost to 50 minerals 50 gas
9. Decrease High Templar cost to 50 min 100 gas
10. Observer should not cost any supply I don't understand why people will continue to whine about Terran repeatedly getting nerfed throughout the early months of SC2 when they were winning everything and statistically much stronger than Zerg and Protoss. Guess what? If your race is overpowered, you get nerfed. Sometimes it takes more than one nerf to balance your race. That's why the earlier months were so ridiculously in your favor, and now the winrates are more balanced. The nerfs did their fucking job. Stop crying. Lol, I want Terran to have less ability and ways to win the game. I specifically said I am disappointed at Blizzard's failed effort to nerf the already OP Terran.... Are you okay? Understand English or no? fairly certain he detected the sarcasm in the post? Since you are a T player as well as the changes you stated are ridiculous? Indeed, especially since this thread has already seen a dozen other people whine about Terrans being royally screwed by non-stop nerfs as proof that Blizzard hates them.  Nope, Blizzard doesn't hate Terran. Blizzard just hates MVP for being in GSL round of 4. Haha =) Only if he makes cloaked units I suppose  Otherwise, this patch will have no effect on him. Naturally, he should be making a truckload of ghosts >.> Parting's pretty good at making extra observers anyway, so I don't think the buff would change his playstyle much. Well, the observers are also useful for scouting and such-- and the reduced build time also helps get out immortals more quickly to defend all-ins and stuff right? Not saying that there's a problem with the unnecessary observer buff, just that observers serve multiple purposes, and so do robos.
Sure, if you're constantly queueing robo units (as you should), the unit after your observer will start 10 seconds earlier  The whole line will have moved 10 seconds faster than before.
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Remove energy on thor/ battle cruise plz
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On May 10 2012 13:48 m!st wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 13:43 Inty wrote:On May 10 2012 13:35 sc14s wrote:On May 10 2012 13:32 doffe wrote:On May 10 2012 13:23 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 13:19 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 13:12 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 13:10 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 13:05 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 12:59 ig0tfish wrote:
[quote]
Ravens are more expensive than HTs, and building a raven requires a starport with tech lab. you didnt answer most of my question. Yes they are more expensive, but they are the similar to a colossi (cost wise) and I was discussing a way for terrans to spend all their gas late game. I'm sure a large seeker missile hit on my army would be as damaging as a storm on yours.....and the argument that I would just feedback the ravens is just like saying "why get HTs, you will just snipe them". if your floating 2K gas, why not add some high tech units, Zerg and Protoss do :D Its not . Siege Tanks deal have bigger Splash than Seeker Missiles . At best the first target gets hit for 100 , 1-2 targets get hit for 50 and 2-3 get hit for 25. Seeker Missile is good against Air Units since they stack up easily but against ground its just bad. Why not add tanks then, Its very hard to engage a terran force backed up by seige tanks. Because Sieged tanks don't move .... . The late Terran army need to avoid the masses of AOE Protoss has with kiting. Sieged tanks kind of not move .... . I mean they barely have more HP then Marauders and can't be healed as easily. They dont need to move if you engage properly, you can put them behind your army and kite back to the safety of seige tanks. There has to be units other than MMMVG to use against protoss late game. Instead of rejecting every unit except those, try to work out a way to use units with insane splash damage late game. the problem is that chargelots make siegetanks costinefficient due to splash on own units. You can try to use them all you want but as long as chargelots autoconnect and siegetanks splash friendlies I doubt they will be implented other then in a few timing attacks or maybe to defend locations where your army is not. And the second issue is upgrades. While the toss army share upgrades across the board a few 0-0 siegetanks wont do much against 3-3 armies. And upgrading both mech and bio is not realistic when the mechuse is so limited. so so wrong <.< i've seen plenty of games from MKP and MVP in particular where they work wonders.. so i have to completely disagree with you considering those two are certainly some of the top Ts in the world. Seige tanks are good against protoss in the early to mid game before charge and templar colossi, and archons are present. It is also before protoss begins to get a lot of ground upgrades and everyone is at 0-0 maybe 1-1. After this it becomes unfeasible to upgrade air attack, bio, and mech upgrades while getting vikings and medivacs meaning your tanks will be severely out upgraded. Add to that the fact that chargelots auto hit your army causing your tanks to do more aoe to your army(dying easier to storm/colossi) you end up doing more harm than good with tanks. The supply/cost is better used on vikings and ghosts. These are the reasons why pro players( including mvp and mkp) only get tanks for certain 1-1-1 builds (including expo into 1-1-1) and then stop producing as they transition into 3 base economy. They have the same range as colossi yeah? if so couldn't your bio deal with zeals while tanks and vikings deal with colossi? seems like they both fit a similar role but siege tanks are more fragile if you loose the battle, cant run away very easily. there has to be a way use your gas, whether it be more upgrades for your existing units, or upgrades and higher tech units. I guess Terran will keep complaining until a Pro figures out a way to use units out of the standard composition(which is fair enough :D)
That would require micro! How dare you suggest that a Terran should do anything but press "1" "T" "A"
The NERVE!
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On May 10 2012 14:04 Rygasm wrote:
Remove energy on thor/ battle cruise plz
If you do that, Strike cannon and Yamato on cooldowns? that would be a bit borked. unless the cooldown was quite large.
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Thank you blizzard for finally giving us a little bit faster overlords. Not sure about queen range but ill take it.
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Even animation-wise it doesn't make any sense. It's obvious the Queen attack is more of a melee type rather than range projectiles or something. That's like raising Ultralisk range from 1 to 3.
+ Show Spoiler +Now THAT would be scary right? xD
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Queen range is... I have no idea how to put it. My hellions will probably lose 1 more HP than they usually would after harassment now. Maybe I don't play Zerg enough, but it seems so redundant. Oh well, guess it is better than nothing. Love the Observer and Overlord buffs!
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On May 10 2012 14:06 Dosey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 13:48 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 13:43 Inty wrote:On May 10 2012 13:35 sc14s wrote:On May 10 2012 13:32 doffe wrote:On May 10 2012 13:23 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 13:19 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 13:12 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 13:10 s3rp wrote:On May 10 2012 13:05 m!st wrote:
[quote]
you didnt answer most of my question. Yes they are more expensive, but they are the similar to a colossi (cost wise) and I was discussing a way for terrans to spend all their gas late game. I'm sure a large seeker missile hit on my army would be as damaging as a storm on yours.....and the argument that I would just feedback the ravens is just like saying "why get HTs, you will just snipe them". if your floating 2K gas, why not add some high tech units, Zerg and Protoss do :D Its not . Siege Tanks deal have bigger Splash than Seeker Missiles . At best the first target gets hit for 100 , 1-2 targets get hit for 50 and 2-3 get hit for 25. Seeker Missile is good against Air Units since they stack up easily but against ground its just bad. Why not add tanks then, Its very hard to engage a terran force backed up by seige tanks. Because Sieged tanks don't move .... . The late Terran army need to avoid the masses of AOE Protoss has with kiting. Sieged tanks kind of not move .... . I mean they barely have more HP then Marauders and can't be healed as easily. They dont need to move if you engage properly, you can put them behind your army and kite back to the safety of seige tanks. There has to be units other than MMMVG to use against protoss late game. Instead of rejecting every unit except those, try to work out a way to use units with insane splash damage late game. the problem is that chargelots make siegetanks costinefficient due to splash on own units. You can try to use them all you want but as long as chargelots autoconnect and siegetanks splash friendlies I doubt they will be implented other then in a few timing attacks or maybe to defend locations where your army is not. And the second issue is upgrades. While the toss army share upgrades across the board a few 0-0 siegetanks wont do much against 3-3 armies. And upgrading both mech and bio is not realistic when the mechuse is so limited. so so wrong <.< i've seen plenty of games from MKP and MVP in particular where they work wonders.. so i have to completely disagree with you considering those two are certainly some of the top Ts in the world. Seige tanks are good against protoss in the early to mid game before charge and templar colossi, and archons are present. It is also before protoss begins to get a lot of ground upgrades and everyone is at 0-0 maybe 1-1. After this it becomes unfeasible to upgrade air attack, bio, and mech upgrades while getting vikings and medivacs meaning your tanks will be severely out upgraded. Add to that the fact that chargelots auto hit your army causing your tanks to do more aoe to your army(dying easier to storm/colossi) you end up doing more harm than good with tanks. The supply/cost is better used on vikings and ghosts. These are the reasons why pro players( including mvp and mkp) only get tanks for certain 1-1-1 builds (including expo into 1-1-1) and then stop producing as they transition into 3 base economy. They have the same range as colossi yeah? if so couldn't your bio deal with zeals while tanks and vikings deal with colossi? seems like they both fit a similar role but siege tanks are more fragile if you loose the battle, cant run away very easily. there has to be a way use your gas, whether it be more upgrades for your existing units, or upgrades and higher tech units. I guess Terran will keep complaining until a Pro figures out a way to use units out of the standard composition(which is fair enough :D) That would require micro! How dare you suggest that a Terran should do anything but press "1" "T" "A" The NERVE!
I want to see you dodge storms and kite while making sure tanks don't friendly fire. Its impossible to tell tanks to not fire they will allways shoot at something . Even 1-2 shots of FF against a Bioball can be devastating ( Marines have only 55 HP and Marauders get bonus damage ) .
If tanks had a hold fire button ( like Ghosts have ) adding tanks in TvP actually could work. But they don't have that.
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On May 10 2012 14:09 ZenithM wrote:Even animation-wise it doesn't make any sense. It's obvious the Queen attack is more of a melee type rather than range projectiles or something. That's like raising Ultralisk range from 1 to 3. + Show Spoiler +Now THAT would be scary right? xD
u remember the spine crawler "root" change ?
he breakdanced for whatever seconds without a real ending animation.. :D
ill expect the queen to hit with her claws?! or wtf like a spine crawler now
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On May 10 2012 14:09 ZenithM wrote:Even animation-wise it doesn't make any sense. It's obvious the Queen attack is more of a melee type rather than range projectiles or something. That's like raising Ultralisk range from 1 to 3. + Show Spoiler +Now THAT would be scary right? xD
iirc They already said they were changing the animation. Incontrol brought up this issue in an episode of SotG
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On May 10 2012 13:55 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 13:54 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 10 2012 13:52 VPFaith wrote:On May 10 2012 13:48 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 10 2012 13:41 sc14s wrote:On May 10 2012 13:38 VPFaith wrote:On May 10 2012 13:35 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 10 2012 13:23 VPFaith wrote:
Again I am really disappointed in Blizzard's decision of not nerfing Terran...
1. Increase bunker build time to 60-70 seconds.
2. Increase Ghost Build cost to 300 min - 150 gas
3. Increase Queen starting energy to 50 - 75
4. Increase Raven build cost to 300 min - 300 gas
5. Increase Tech lab build time to 50 seconds
6. Decrease Collosus build time to 50 seconds
7. Decrease Protoss shield upgrade to 100- 100
8. Decrease Sentry cost to 50 minerals 50 gas
9. Decrease High Templar cost to 50 min 100 gas
10. Observer should not cost any supply I don't understand why people will continue to whine about Terran repeatedly getting nerfed throughout the early months of SC2 when they were winning everything and statistically much stronger than Zerg and Protoss. Guess what? If your race is overpowered, you get nerfed. Sometimes it takes more than one nerf to balance your race. That's why the earlier months were so ridiculously in your favor, and now the winrates are more balanced. The nerfs did their fucking job. Stop crying. Lol, I want Terran to have less ability and ways to win the game. I specifically said I am disappointed at Blizzard's failed effort to nerf the already OP Terran.... Are you okay? Understand English or no? fairly certain he detected the sarcasm in the post? Since you are a T player as well as the changes you stated are ridiculous? Indeed, especially since this thread has already seen a dozen other people whine about Terrans being royally screwed by non-stop nerfs as proof that Blizzard hates them. Nope, Blizzard doesn't hate Terran. Blizzard just hates MVP for being in GSL round of 4. Haha =) Only if he makes cloaked units I suppose Otherwise, this patch will have no effect on him. Naturally, he should be making a truckload of ghosts >.> Parting's pretty good at making extra observers anyway, so I don't think the buff would change his playstyle much. Well, the observers are also useful for scouting and such-- and the reduced build time also helps get out immortals more quickly to defend all-ins and stuff right? Not saying that there's a problem with the unnecessary observer buff, just that observers serve multiple purposes, and so do robos.
Exactly. Observers help with the banshee harass as they get out right as the banshee gets to the main of the toss player. And it helps with scouting zerg alot faster (because we're obviously not HerO who can hide probes around the map to scout later) and being able to then prepare for the most likely roach push or muta/ling or w/e else people run into. Really will help with getting scouting out and then being able to pump out immortals for the roach push that is likely to happen as it seems to be a hot strat to use now against toss. Instead of relying on the perfect FF's to defend (which we've seen only pro's can do 95% of the time. (pro's make mistakes too)).
Faster scouting the push more time to prepare and not have to depend on 1 ability and be stuck gg'ing if we screw up those crucial FF's.
So just because you terran players cant use banshee's to harass for an extra 5-10 seconds doesnt give you the right to QQ as you all end up getting a nice stack of units to put pressure on and toss is forced to read it right or have the wrong early game comp to defend.
Less QQ and more practice >_>
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On May 10 2012 14:07 m!st wrote:If you do that, Strike cannon and Yamato on cooldowns? that would be a bit borked. unless the cooldown was quite large.
Remove strike cannon and yamato, too. I think all terrans would be fine with it.
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On May 10 2012 14:14 KiNGxXx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 14:07 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 14:04 Rygasm wrote:
Remove energy on thor/ battle cruise plz If you do that, Strike cannon and Yamato on cooldowns? that would be a bit borked. unless the cooldown was quite large. Remove strike cannon and yamato, too. I think all terrans would be fine with it.
Yamato has its uses and serves its purpose. Strike Cannon on the otherhand takes way too long and Thors are so clunky and clumsy you never see it used.
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On May 10 2012 14:14 KiNGxXx wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2012 14:07 m!st wrote:On May 10 2012 14:04 Rygasm wrote:
Remove energy on thor/ battle cruise plz If you do that, Strike cannon and Yamato on cooldowns? that would be a bit borked. unless the cooldown was quite large. Remove strike cannon and yamato, too. I think all terrans would be fine with it.
Blind strike cannon decimated my one-base Colossi push once, and is somewhat good against Immortals. Yamato is a battle-changing spell when massing Battlecruisers; however, if you are implying that Battlecruisers are useless, then that is somewhat true. Other than that, Yamato is always crucial when having BCs.
EDIT: yay 100th post
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EPT
