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NHL Fever
Canada104 Posts
On May 04 2012 19:49 aintthatfunny wrote: In which the terrans played absolutely awful and completely deserved the result. By that you mean they played standard. Standard right now is awful, that's why this entire discussion/thread/topic exists. | ||
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DropTester
Australia608 Posts
Honestly I think we have to give it a bit more time before anything can be argued. In February I remember someone discussing with me that protoss was imbalanced, with them hitting a winrate higher than terran but then in the next month they simply dropped back down. I believe this is more with the metagame and terran just needs some time to figure things out. | ||
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CDR
Poland84 Posts
I guess that is pretty significant  Metagame changes and winrates change, Terran players seem to fail to adapt but soon someone will figure some new timings out and things will go back to normal (which is T being imba ). | ||
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Maindi
Finland104 Posts
On May 05 2012 06:18 NHL Fever wrote: By that you mean they played standard. Standard right now is awful, that's why this entire discussion/thread/topic exists. Did you even watch those games? | ||
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j1nzo
Germany367 Posts
internationally viewed the game seems to be very balanced. can't get much better than that. from what i see in the gsl terrans have problems with protoss, as korean protoss seem to use much more templar based play. also terran tends to loose too many vikings (in case they blindly build 1-2) or medivacs during a fight with a templar-army. as a result they can almost never keep up with a colossus tech switch. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
On May 05 2012 18:13 CDR wrote: Does Korean stats include only GSL? What about Koreans playing in foreign tournaments? Which chart are they in? I guess that is pretty significant Metagame changes and winrates change, Terran players seem to fail to adapt but soon someone will figure some new timings out and things will go back to normal (which is T being imba ).Korean stats include games played as part of Korean competitions by anyone (usually) in Korea. So foreigners playing in GSL comes under Korea, ESV weekly comes under Korea. Players playing in non-Korean competitions, be they Korean or other, come under international, so two Koreans playing on the Korean server in the NASL would be International. You can check the TLPD yourself and see which competitions are under which classification. The stats are just taken from the games in the TLPD database. F.ex, Korean competitions: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/individual-leagues http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-korean/team-leagues One thing relevant to the Korean numbers is that due to the small pool of games, a reasonable proportion will come from the ESV competitions, which use ESV maps. These may not be as balanced as other maps which have been in use for longer periods, and players are likely to be less familiar with the maps, which in a small sample of players can potentially skew numbers. | ||
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Vapaach
Finland994 Posts
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MtlGuitarist97
United States1539 Posts
On May 05 2012 21:13 Vapaach wrote: Korean sample size is too small to get any actually reliable data from there.. the balance seems quite nice. You can say that the level of play at foreign level is too low and you can't get reliable data from there...the argument works both ways And also, Terran's have just been getting smashed recently. Like..it's not even close most of the series. I don't honestly think that late game TvP is balanced, and a Blizzard employee (a moderator) even said that TvP late game is not supposed to be balanced because of the fact that our early game "is much stronger than their early game," which just simply is not true anymore. Look at many Protoss players. They do gateway all ins and timing pushes and are showing that Protoss is just as strong as Terran in the early/middle stages of the game. 15 nexus is basically impossible to punish on many maps. Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4838104108 I don't think win rates tell us enough about balance though, I think balance has to mean that the game is fair and fun at all stages. WIn rates don't tell us how those players won and about the skill differentials in each series. | ||
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convention
United States622 Posts
On May 06 2012 01:53 MtlGuitarist97 wrote: You can say that the level of play at foreign level is too low and you can't get reliable data from there...the argument works both ways And also, Terran's have just been getting smashed recently. Like..it's not even close most of the series. I don't honestly think that late game TvP is balanced, and a Blizzard employee (a moderator) even said that TvP late game is not supposed to be balanced because of the fact that our early game "is much stronger than their early game," which just simply is not true anymore. Look at many Protoss players. They do gateway all ins and timing pushes and are showing that Protoss is just as strong as Terran in the early/middle stages of the game. 15 nexus is basically impossible to punish on many maps. Source: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4838104108 I don't think win rates tell us enough about balance though, I think balance has to mean that the game is fair and fun at all stages. WIn rates don't tell us how those players won and about the skill differentials in each series. The gateway all-ins work because the army values are significantly different. That does not mean that protoss have a strong early/mid game, just that if they have a massive army value advantage they might be able to win (I have seen gateway all-ins fail because a few bunkers despite having more than double the terran army value). When the medivacs come out, it gives terran so much map control, they need to take advantage of that map control - which is what Blizzard is saying. If one race has an advatage earlier in the game but doesn't use that advantage, then they should be behind. And those maps where 15 nexus can't be punished, are the same maps that 15 cc can't be punished either. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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doffe
Sweden636 Posts
On May 06 2012 02:11 tomatriedes wrote: So amusing the way the terran whiners constantly try to dismiss the win rates as being meaningless because they don't like the fact that they look pretty balanced. and its equally amusing that protoss players (note that I am random so I dont really have any race bias) think that 50 - 50 winrations constitute PROPER balance. As said before, if your only option to win hypothetically is to cheese else it goes into a period of advantage for the opposite race. And this then resulting in a 50 50 winration should the gamebalance be considered good still? Sure in a way it is balanced but from a competative standpoint it is fucking awful not to speak from a spectator. I cant recall more then a handful of games where ive seen the terran win after both reach 200 supply. I would so prefer terrans getting nerfed at their strongpoint whatever timings that may be just to have them be competative lategame. As of now noone can really argue that past 20min PvT is balanced. You can then argue that the terran should use his somewhat superior midgame to get into a good position for the lategame but again, this makes the game stale since in the end it all will come down to the protoss defending towards a maxed army of ZSSCT every single game. I think blizzard really need to take a look at the winrations at certain timings then overall. Strongpoints should cycle there should never ever be a endcomp that has no valid counter. a > b >c >a doesnt exist atm. (where a, b and c are comps not units). There currently is no figured out counter to the storm, collosi gw ball for terran. It is possible to beat it but its hell of a lot rarer and takes a ton more apm then for the protoss. TLDR: the MU might have a balanced winratios but does that make it a good one? Can someone honestly argue PvT lategame to be balanced as of now? Give us MUs balanced cross the board with every comp having a valid counter please. | ||
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doffe
Sweden636 Posts
On May 06 2012 02:06 convention wrote: The gateway all-ins work because the army values are significantly different. That does not mean that protoss have a strong early/mid game, just that if they have a massive army value advantage they might be able to win (I have seen gateway all-ins fail because a few bunkers despite having more than double the terran army value). When the medivacs come out, it gives terran so much map control, they need to take advantage of that map control - which is what Blizzard is saying. If one race has an advatage earlier in the game but doesn't use that advantage, then they should be behind. And those maps where 15 nexus can't be punished, are the same maps that 15 cc can't be punished either. Im not sure every pro would agree that if 15nexus is safe so is 15CC, dont quote me on that though I just got an iffy feeling about that comment, need to consider it a bit more GW pushes are only good cause they are hard to scout more or less. Scouted a terran seldom looses to a gw push. that said, being forced into a timing where you must do damage or else you will inevitably be behind due to a less then balanced lategame doesnt constitute a good MU. Balanced winratios is good and all but its still a pretty broken mu as of now. Well see if the metagame will switch else I do think that PvT winratios the coming months in games going to lategame will look horrid at the very top. As a spectator I somewhat feel, atleast when watching Code A/S PvTs that once lategame has kicked in I might aswell stop watchin cause its pretty much over. Thats just not good entertainement. | ||
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mEtRoSG
Germany192 Posts
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AsymptoticClimax
United Kingdom249 Posts
On May 03 2012 21:39 ZenithM wrote: It may be the first time in the history of the game that Korean Terran have less than 50% winrate overall. How the mighty have fallen. and how the whiney have whined | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On June 07 2012 05:26 Aterons_toss wrote: I think in int zvp you bolded the wrong rates, charts show zerg 50,3 and toss 49, 7 That's why I bolded Z, I don't see the problem? | ||
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IMoperator
4476 Posts
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
You'll have to bug him politely  | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
Every month people whine their hearts out regardless. Do the graphs "support" your whine? Awesome Do the graphs don't "support" your whine? Make up something about them being meaningless. Whiners gonna whine | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On June 07 2012 08:05 windsupernova wrote: Every month this graphs come out and show the winrates are reasonably even. Every month people whine their hearts out regardless. Do the graphs "support" your whine? Awesome Do the graphs don't "support" your whine? Make up something about them being meaningless. Whiners gonna whine I always find them interesting. I've seen many people use them as evidence that balance is quite alright. Whether you use them for good or evil is up to the you. | ||
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