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Vatican City State582 Posts
On May 04 2012 06:26 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:11 Sajaki wrote:On May 04 2012 05:59 ACrow wrote:On May 04 2012 05:53 Seam wrote:On May 04 2012 05:45 Sajaki wrote:
YAY! Terran winrates are absolute garbage. Now maybe blizzard will actually pay attention to our race when it comes to any game past 13-14 minutes! :D Are we looking at the same graph? let me translate: "Terran winrates are absolute garbage" = Terran winrates are below 50% for the first time evar Terran winrates are garbage = terran dropping from 62-46 and 58-44. That is a BIG change. Of course the Korean rates matter the most because metagame changes usually happen first in korea, and blizzard is balancing the games for the top level of play i.e. korean server. I would assume the korean section of the graph would actually matter the least.Mainly due to having a very, very small sample size.
Despite being a very small sample size compared to the international scene, the Korean section of the chart presents the data collected from the highest level of play.
Not to say that low play does not matter, but in reality, it just does not matter as much as the absolute highest level.
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On May 04 2012 03:07 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 21:39 ZenithM wrote:
It may be the first time in the history of the game that Korean Terran have less than 50% winrate overall.
How the mighty have fallen. Expect this to fall more. Even internationally, win rates have failed to dip below 50% for the reasons below. However, they will also follow the Korean trend. ----- Rank 1 master Terran here and I'm astounded DK would not address Late game TvP. I've kept track of my win % on sc2gears and passed 20 in-game minutes -- I have only won a single TvP this entire season. Given this disparity on an anecdotal level (my own), it may not have much significance. However, coupled with many other Rank 1-8 Master Terrans who also fail to win passed 20 in-game minutes, and have tracked a similar rate of failure on sc2gears, I'm guessing that this data exists within the released win rates per MU at least on our level, if not elsewhere. A few explanations of the win rates: Many of the weaker Terran players have left the race entirely and switched to Protoss or Zerg. The evidence of this is in the proportion of Terran players to their Zerg and Protoss counterparts in the GM and Master leagues within NA and EU. Terran players have dropped to 1/4 of the race selections. (In KR, the Korean Terrans are on another level, and yet their representation is only equal). Note that it is a possibility that the win rate of the remaining Terrans never changed, but the overall win rate of Terran simply increased from the reduction of the weaker Terran players. Thus, this is one explanation of relatively even win rates TvP. An alternative explanation of these win rates is that Terrans are opting for more All-in or Semi all-in mid game timings. Most good Terran players recognize that our Win % peters out as the game goes on, and so we go for timings when we have the greatest chance to win. A more thorough discussion on balance would occur when Win % of Races were determined per unit of time (0-3 minutes, 3-6 minutes, etc.) and also by League and Server. I feel that Terran has been pigeonholed into the Terran that we have today. All races should be able to perform relatively evenly at all points in the game, and the winner should be determined by the criterion of his skill, not overwhelmingly by the strength of a race at a certain point in time. If Blizzard finds that Terran has a disproportionate win rate from the 6-9 minute mark, but also a disproportionate loss ratio passed 20 minutes, then there should be adjustments made to weaken Terran at the 6-9 minute mark and strengthen Terran's late game options. I'll take another Rax/add-on timing nerf (given all of the implications) if it means Ravens get faster movement and HSM speed and something is done with BCs.
If your advantage occurs before mine, then who is at an advantage?
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On May 04 2012 06:29 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:26 Seam wrote:On May 04 2012 06:11 Sajaki wrote:On May 04 2012 05:59 ACrow wrote:On May 04 2012 05:53 Seam wrote:On May 04 2012 05:45 Sajaki wrote:
YAY! Terran winrates are absolute garbage. Now maybe blizzard will actually pay attention to our race when it comes to any game past 13-14 minutes! :D Are we looking at the same graph? let me translate: "Terran winrates are absolute garbage" = Terran winrates are below 50% for the first time evar Terran winrates are garbage = terran dropping from 62-46 and 58-44. That is a BIG change. Of course the Korean rates matter the most because metagame changes usually happen first in korea, and blizzard is balancing the games for the top level of play i.e. korean server. I would assume the korean section of the graph would actually matter the least.Mainly due to having a very, very small sample size. I disagree. You have to realize for the internation graph that it counts games such as stephano vs no named joe. Korean graph is almost purely GSL with code A/S players. International counts tournaments even if the top foreigners don't play in the smaller tournaments. So hard to take the international seriously at all since it goes from super good player thorzain vs no named xxx player who is mid masters.
While it's true that it does show only GSL level players, you also have to consider not all players are at the same level, even in GSL. With a sample size that's really small, there's a lot of viables.
Or, for example, take the MVP vs Naniwa games. MVP beat Naniwa due to playing better, and out controlling Naniwa.(And 2 cheeses) Does that show anything about balance? 2 of the 4 games were cheese.
Overall, I'm saying we shouldn't use this in any way, shape, or form as a means to base aruguments of balance on. It's good to bring up, yes, but with small sample sizes it can't be trusted as an accurate scale of balance.
(I'm tired and having trouble wording things)
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Finally the problems lower terrans(masters NA) have been dealing with for months have finally hit the upper echelon, not that I needed this confirmation as I've already jumped ship , anyways, Good luck 'fellow' terrans!
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On May 04 2012 06:37 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:29 blade55555 wrote:On May 04 2012 06:26 Seam wrote:On May 04 2012 06:11 Sajaki wrote:On May 04 2012 05:59 ACrow wrote:On May 04 2012 05:53 Seam wrote:On May 04 2012 05:45 Sajaki wrote:
YAY! Terran winrates are absolute garbage. Now maybe blizzard will actually pay attention to our race when it comes to any game past 13-14 minutes! :D Are we looking at the same graph? let me translate: "Terran winrates are absolute garbage" = Terran winrates are below 50% for the first time evar Terran winrates are garbage = terran dropping from 62-46 and 58-44. That is a BIG change. Of course the Korean rates matter the most because metagame changes usually happen first in korea, and blizzard is balancing the games for the top level of play i.e. korean server. I would assume the korean section of the graph would actually matter the least.Mainly due to having a very, very small sample size. I disagree. You have to realize for the internation graph that it counts games such as stephano vs no named joe. Korean graph is almost purely GSL with code A/S players. International counts tournaments even if the top foreigners don't play in the smaller tournaments. So hard to take the international seriously at all since it goes from super good player thorzain vs no named xxx player who is mid masters. While it's true that it does show only GSL level players, you also have to consider not all players are at the same level, even in GSL. With a sample size that's really small, there's a lot of viables. Or, for example, take the MVP vs Naniwa games. MVP beat Naniwa due to playing better, and out controlling Naniwa.(And 2 cheeses) Does that show anything about balance? 2 of the 4 games were cheese. Overall, I'm saying we shouldn't use this in any way, shape, or form as a means to base aruguments of balance on. It's good to bring up, yes, but with small sample sizes it can't be trusted as an accurate scale of balance. (I'm tired and having trouble wording things)
No offense, but you seem to be saying that games containing early aggression vs extremely greedy build should be invalidated.. why? What if your opponent blindly takes 5 bases without making any army, are you supposed to obey some blind no rush 40min rule and wait for his economy to sky rocket and wreck you?
God...
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On May 04 2012 06:38 IshinShishi wrote:
Finally the problems lower terrans(masters NA) have been dealing with for months have finally hit the upper echelon, not that I needed this confirmation as I've already jumped ship , anyways, Good luck 'fellow' terrans!
My guess is that the international graph is more relevant to you since the jump from you to GSL players is much larger.
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Only 157 Korean games for April... that's 1/3 of the previous sample size. Hopefully that number gets filled in more as it goes, as of now that's averages to ~52 games per match up, better than nothing, but within 5% of even seems pretty good considering the sample size.
Will be interesting to watch PvT over the next month, to see if the domination gets solved, if there's imbalance, or if Parting/Squirtle are just skewing the results that much.
Edit: Remember in beta when zealots had 100 shields? Yeah.... think about those zealots now lol.
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On May 04 2012 06:31 Chemist391 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 03:07 zmansman17 wrote:On May 03 2012 21:39 ZenithM wrote:
It may be the first time in the history of the game that Korean Terran have less than 50% winrate overall.
How the mighty have fallen. Expect this to fall more. Even internationally, win rates have failed to dip below 50% for the reasons below. However, they will also follow the Korean trend. ----- Rank 1 master Terran here and I'm astounded DK would not address Late game TvP. I've kept track of my win % on sc2gears and passed 20 in-game minutes -- I have only won a single TvP this entire season. Given this disparity on an anecdotal level (my own), it may not have much significance. However, coupled with many other Rank 1-8 Master Terrans who also fail to win passed 20 in-game minutes, and have tracked a similar rate of failure on sc2gears, I'm guessing that this data exists within the released win rates per MU at least on our level, if not elsewhere. A few explanations of the win rates: Many of the weaker Terran players have left the race entirely and switched to Protoss or Zerg. The evidence of this is in the proportion of Terran players to their Zerg and Protoss counterparts in the GM and Master leagues within NA and EU. Terran players have dropped to 1/4 of the race selections. (In KR, the Korean Terrans are on another level, and yet their representation is only equal). Note that it is a possibility that the win rate of the remaining Terrans never changed, but the overall win rate of Terran simply increased from the reduction of the weaker Terran players. Thus, this is one explanation of relatively even win rates TvP. An alternative explanation of these win rates is that Terrans are opting for more All-in or Semi all-in mid game timings. Most good Terran players recognize that our Win % peters out as the game goes on, and so we go for timings when we have the greatest chance to win. A more thorough discussion on balance would occur when Win % of Races were determined per unit of time (0-3 minutes, 3-6 minutes, etc.) and also by League and Server. I feel that Terran has been pigeonholed into the Terran that we have today. All races should be able to perform relatively evenly at all points in the game, and the winner should be determined by the criterion of his skill, not overwhelmingly by the strength of a race at a certain point in time. If Blizzard finds that Terran has a disproportionate win rate from the 6-9 minute mark, but also a disproportionate loss ratio passed 20 minutes, then there should be adjustments made to weaken Terran at the 6-9 minute mark and strengthen Terran's late game options. I'll take another Rax/add-on timing nerf (given all of the implications) if it means Ravens get faster movement and HSM speed and something is done with BCs. If your advantage occurs before mine, then who is at an advantage?
Let's play a game, I'll give you a gun with 2 bullets and then start running around a city. If you can't kill me within 15 minutes you explode. Sound like a fun game?
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Protoss has the highest win rate (In korea at least) for the first time ever! Makin history :D
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On May 04 2012 07:04 Nibbler89 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:31 Chemist391 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:07 zmansman17 wrote:On May 03 2012 21:39 ZenithM wrote:
It may be the first time in the history of the game that Korean Terran have less than 50% winrate overall.
How the mighty have fallen. Expect this to fall more. Even internationally, win rates have failed to dip below 50% for the reasons below. However, they will also follow the Korean trend. ----- Rank 1 master Terran here and I'm astounded DK would not address Late game TvP. I've kept track of my win % on sc2gears and passed 20 in-game minutes -- I have only won a single TvP this entire season. Given this disparity on an anecdotal level (my own), it may not have much significance. However, coupled with many other Rank 1-8 Master Terrans who also fail to win passed 20 in-game minutes, and have tracked a similar rate of failure on sc2gears, I'm guessing that this data exists within the released win rates per MU at least on our level, if not elsewhere. A few explanations of the win rates: Many of the weaker Terran players have left the race entirely and switched to Protoss or Zerg. The evidence of this is in the proportion of Terran players to their Zerg and Protoss counterparts in the GM and Master leagues within NA and EU. Terran players have dropped to 1/4 of the race selections. (In KR, the Korean Terrans are on another level, and yet their representation is only equal). Note that it is a possibility that the win rate of the remaining Terrans never changed, but the overall win rate of Terran simply increased from the reduction of the weaker Terran players. Thus, this is one explanation of relatively even win rates TvP. An alternative explanation of these win rates is that Terrans are opting for more All-in or Semi all-in mid game timings. Most good Terran players recognize that our Win % peters out as the game goes on, and so we go for timings when we have the greatest chance to win. A more thorough discussion on balance would occur when Win % of Races were determined per unit of time (0-3 minutes, 3-6 minutes, etc.) and also by League and Server. I feel that Terran has been pigeonholed into the Terran that we have today. All races should be able to perform relatively evenly at all points in the game, and the winner should be determined by the criterion of his skill, not overwhelmingly by the strength of a race at a certain point in time. If Blizzard finds that Terran has a disproportionate win rate from the 6-9 minute mark, but also a disproportionate loss ratio passed 20 minutes, then there should be adjustments made to weaken Terran at the 6-9 minute mark and strengthen Terran's late game options. I'll take another Rax/add-on timing nerf (given all of the implications) if it means Ravens get faster movement and HSM speed and something is done with BCs. If your advantage occurs before mine, then who is at an advantage? Let's play a game, I'll give you a gun with 2 bullets and then start running around a city. If you can't kill me within 15 minutes you explode. Sound like a fun game?
I think this post should be used as an example of where balance discussion inevitably leads.
It's either this or Hitler, folks.
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Apparently if I so a 5 Command Center build before barracks and I get killed it doesn´t count because nobody should attack me while I am macroing up.
Has someone told Blizzard that they need to change the rules of the game to conform my own imaginary rules?
On May 04 2012 07:15 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 07:04 Nibbler89 wrote:On May 04 2012 06:31 Chemist391 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:07 zmansman17 wrote:On May 03 2012 21:39 ZenithM wrote:
It may be the first time in the history of the game that Korean Terran have less than 50% winrate overall.
How the mighty have fallen. Expect this to fall more. Even internationally, win rates have failed to dip below 50% for the reasons below. However, they will also follow the Korean trend. ----- Rank 1 master Terran here and I'm astounded DK would not address Late game TvP. I've kept track of my win % on sc2gears and passed 20 in-game minutes -- I have only won a single TvP this entire season. Given this disparity on an anecdotal level (my own), it may not have much significance. However, coupled with many other Rank 1-8 Master Terrans who also fail to win passed 20 in-game minutes, and have tracked a similar rate of failure on sc2gears, I'm guessing that this data exists within the released win rates per MU at least on our level, if not elsewhere. A few explanations of the win rates: Many of the weaker Terran players have left the race entirely and switched to Protoss or Zerg. The evidence of this is in the proportion of Terran players to their Zerg and Protoss counterparts in the GM and Master leagues within NA and EU. Terran players have dropped to 1/4 of the race selections. (In KR, the Korean Terrans are on another level, and yet their representation is only equal). Note that it is a possibility that the win rate of the remaining Terrans never changed, but the overall win rate of Terran simply increased from the reduction of the weaker Terran players. Thus, this is one explanation of relatively even win rates TvP. An alternative explanation of these win rates is that Terrans are opting for more All-in or Semi all-in mid game timings. Most good Terran players recognize that our Win % peters out as the game goes on, and so we go for timings when we have the greatest chance to win. A more thorough discussion on balance would occur when Win % of Races were determined per unit of time (0-3 minutes, 3-6 minutes, etc.) and also by League and Server. I feel that Terran has been pigeonholed into the Terran that we have today. All races should be able to perform relatively evenly at all points in the game, and the winner should be determined by the criterion of his skill, not overwhelmingly by the strength of a race at a certain point in time. If Blizzard finds that Terran has a disproportionate win rate from the 6-9 minute mark, but also a disproportionate loss ratio passed 20 minutes, then there should be adjustments made to weaken Terran at the 6-9 minute mark and strengthen Terran's late game options. I'll take another Rax/add-on timing nerf (given all of the implications) if it means Ravens get faster movement and HSM speed and something is done with BCs. If your advantage occurs before mine, then who is at an advantage? Let's play a game, I'll give you a gun with 2 bullets and then start running around a city. If you can't kill me within 15 minutes you explode. Sound like a fun game? I think this post should be used as an example of where balance discussion inevitably leads. It's either this or Hitler, folks.
Lol that is hilarious. Should be made a real sport tbqh
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On May 04 2012 06:38 IshinShishi wrote:
Finally the problems lower terrans(masters NA) have been dealing with for months have finally hit the upper echelon, not that I needed this confirmation as I've already jumped ship , anyways, Good luck 'fellow' terrans!
Yeah because strategies and control trickle up from low Masters NA to pro level......
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On May 04 2012 06:37 Seam wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 06:29 blade55555 wrote:On May 04 2012 06:26 Seam wrote:On May 04 2012 06:11 Sajaki wrote:On May 04 2012 05:59 ACrow wrote:On May 04 2012 05:53 Seam wrote:On May 04 2012 05:45 Sajaki wrote:
YAY! Terran winrates are absolute garbage. Now maybe blizzard will actually pay attention to our race when it comes to any game past 13-14 minutes! :D Are we looking at the same graph? let me translate: "Terran winrates are absolute garbage" = Terran winrates are below 50% for the first time evar Terran winrates are garbage = terran dropping from 62-46 and 58-44. That is a BIG change. Of course the Korean rates matter the most because metagame changes usually happen first in korea, and blizzard is balancing the games for the top level of play i.e. korean server. I would assume the korean section of the graph would actually matter the least.Mainly due to having a very, very small sample size. I disagree. You have to realize for the internation graph that it counts games such as stephano vs no named joe. Korean graph is almost purely GSL with code A/S players. International counts tournaments even if the top foreigners don't play in the smaller tournaments. So hard to take the international seriously at all since it goes from super good player thorzain vs no named xxx player who is mid masters. While it's true that it does show only GSL level players, you also have to consider not all players are at the same level, even in GSL. With a sample size that's really small, there's a lot of viables. Or, for example, take the MVP vs Naniwa games. MVP beat Naniwa due to playing better, and out controlling Naniwa.(And 2 cheeses) Does that show anything about balance? 2 of the 4 games were cheese.Overall, I'm saying we shouldn't use this in any way, shape, or form as a means to base aruguments of balance on. It's good to bring up, yes, but with small sample sizes it can't be trusted as an accurate scale of balance. (I'm tired and having trouble wording things)
And the better player won. What's your point?
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On May 03 2012 21:40 Raid wrote:
Can terrans use the same arguments that zerg and protoss used of that we should "balance the game at the highest level" and since terran doing so bad in korea they need buff?
No silly.... Terrans are still ruling GSL! GOMTVT!
Oh wait...
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On May 04 2012 07:15 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 07:04 Nibbler89 wrote:On May 04 2012 06:31 Chemist391 wrote:On May 04 2012 03:07 zmansman17 wrote:On May 03 2012 21:39 ZenithM wrote:
It may be the first time in the history of the game that Korean Terran have less than 50% winrate overall.
How the mighty have fallen. Expect this to fall more. Even internationally, win rates have failed to dip below 50% for the reasons below. However, they will also follow the Korean trend. ----- Rank 1 master Terran here and I'm astounded DK would not address Late game TvP. I've kept track of my win % on sc2gears and passed 20 in-game minutes -- I have only won a single TvP this entire season. Given this disparity on an anecdotal level (my own), it may not have much significance. However, coupled with many other Rank 1-8 Master Terrans who also fail to win passed 20 in-game minutes, and have tracked a similar rate of failure on sc2gears, I'm guessing that this data exists within the released win rates per MU at least on our level, if not elsewhere. A few explanations of the win rates: Many of the weaker Terran players have left the race entirely and switched to Protoss or Zerg. The evidence of this is in the proportion of Terran players to their Zerg and Protoss counterparts in the GM and Master leagues within NA and EU. Terran players have dropped to 1/4 of the race selections. (In KR, the Korean Terrans are on another level, and yet their representation is only equal). Note that it is a possibility that the win rate of the remaining Terrans never changed, but the overall win rate of Terran simply increased from the reduction of the weaker Terran players. Thus, this is one explanation of relatively even win rates TvP. An alternative explanation of these win rates is that Terrans are opting for more All-in or Semi all-in mid game timings. Most good Terran players recognize that our Win % peters out as the game goes on, and so we go for timings when we have the greatest chance to win. A more thorough discussion on balance would occur when Win % of Races were determined per unit of time (0-3 minutes, 3-6 minutes, etc.) and also by League and Server. I feel that Terran has been pigeonholed into the Terran that we have today. All races should be able to perform relatively evenly at all points in the game, and the winner should be determined by the criterion of his skill, not overwhelmingly by the strength of a race at a certain point in time. If Blizzard finds that Terran has a disproportionate win rate from the 6-9 minute mark, but also a disproportionate loss ratio passed 20 minutes, then there should be adjustments made to weaken Terran at the 6-9 minute mark and strengthen Terran's late game options. I'll take another Rax/add-on timing nerf (given all of the implications) if it means Ravens get faster movement and HSM speed and something is done with BCs. If your advantage occurs before mine, then who is at an advantage? Let's play a game, I'll give you a gun with 2 bullets and then start running around a city. If you can't kill me within 15 minutes you explode. Sound like a fun game? I think this post should be used as an example of where balance discussion inevitably leads. It's either this or Hitler, folks.
I don't even think tvp is imbalanced, imo lastshadow has been showing some tvp builds that seem pretty powerful and are not completely bio based, they are still based around a timing attack but I'm ok with that.
I just wanted to point out how his statement "If your advantage occurs before mine, then who is at an advantage?" was pretty dumb and the current state of bio tvp is pretty much as I described.
I never said there weren't other options, I for one am not playing standard bio in tvp anymore, a 1-1-1 variation(doesn't have to be all in) is too good to pass up imo because of how strong PDD/ravens are. Not to mention it makes it easier to snipe obs and you don't have to waste scans vs dts.
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idk, to me it just seems that in TvP, terran can't capitalize on his skill advantage like he can with the other matchups.
Mvp was the best player to ever touch the game (pre injury) and tvp was his worst matchup.
MMA is a Terran god and tvp is his worst matchup.
More often than not, if a Terran is good in 2 matchups and bad in one he's gonna be bad in tvp. (ryung, nada, supernova, demuslim, ganzi, + countless other pro Terrans that say tvp is their worst mu)
I think the problem is that with Protoss, if you have a signifigant advantage you can just a move and win the game (like it should be), but as Terran, the efficiency of zealots/archons and the game changing psi storm ability makes it super hard to capitilize on an advantage.
Plus, in TvT and TvZ it is hard to clean up drops cost effiecently, so if the Terran has better multitasking than his opponent he can capitalize on it. While toss can just feedback the medivac and warp in a couple zealots and clean up the drop with almost no effort or cost.
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i lost to morrow 1-2
giving terran the edge in the international graph!!
i want to see a round table of the best players in the world talking about balance.
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On May 04 2012 07:48 xrapture wrote:
idk, to me it just seems that in TvP, terran can't capitalize on his skill advantage like he can with the other matchups.
Mvp was the best player to ever touch the game (pre injury) and tvp was his worst matchup.
MMA is a Terran god and tvp is his worst matchup.
More often than not, if a Terran is good in 2 matchups and bad in one he's gonna be bad in tvp. (ryung, nada, supernova, demuslim, ganzi, + countless other pro Terrans that say tvp is their worst mu)
I think the problem is that with Protoss, if you have a signifigant advantage you can just a move and win the game (like it should be), but as Terran, the efficiency of zealots/archons and the game changing psi storm ability makes it super hard to capitilize on an advantage.
Plus, in TvT and TvZ it is hard to clean up drops cost effiecently, so if the Terran has better multitasking than his opponent he can capitalize on it. While toss can just feedback the medivac and warp in a couple zealots and clean up the drop with almost no effort or cost.
It's the style which MMA plays which makes him bad against protoss. People who play bio heavy micro styles like MKP and Polt do much better.
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On May 04 2012 07:51 Let it Raine wrote:
i lost to morrow 1-2
giving terran the edge in the international graph!!
i want to see a round table of the best players in the world talking about balance.
How about just Artosis and Idra? Just as good imo.
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Lol quite honestly the korean PvT winrate is completely skewed. The korean sample is like of 150 games which is nothing, and the entire winrate in general is probably skewed by STartale_Parting who has a 80% win rate in the match up.
Parting alone can eaisly skew the winrate 5-6%
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EPT
