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On May 04 2012 13:33 Doodsmack wrote:
The observer buff is a joke and it's pretty much dishonest to suggest otherwise. Protoss does not need to be buffed right now, plain and simple. 2-3 insta observers on big maps = you can't break the Protoss.
I'm surprised people are so upset about it. If this change strengthens the Protoss early/mid game, especially against timing attacks, then it's also the first step in allowing Terran lategame to be buffed without throwing the entire matchup out of whack.
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On May 04 2012 13:16 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 13:06 Madkipz wrote:On May 04 2012 12:16 Ballistixz wrote:On May 04 2012 12:09 Madkipz wrote:
Queen, range or energy won't mean a damn thing against hellions because hellions can't kill spines, and queens take ages to kill hellions. queens do fairly good dps against hellions. more then enough to push them back Only if you don't want to loose one of your SIX hellions. my point still stands. The queen attacking one hellion is just a tiny tickling that while cause for worry does not constitute to preventing or denying hellion harassment regardless of range or energy. So you need to build a rax, factory, reactor and 6 hellions to kill a 150 mineral queen that comes after spawning pool? Seems legit :D
Here's the difference. Can build a factory and reactors, and 4 hellions can roast a mineral line in seconds if they get in. Seems legit :D
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On May 04 2012 12:45 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 12:22 Existor wrote:
Why Terrans and Protosses can't send 2 probes instead one to scout zerg??
Zerg sending slow moving 100 minerals, that gives 8 food, and it's easy to kill. Send 2 workers and problem with big range solved! Your first overlord is free. If it escapes, then no harm done. You just got free scouting information. If you send two workers, and they both escape, you still have lost lots of mining time. You need to consider the opportunity cost.
The opportunity cost also factors in the fact that you get scouting information, which isnt necessarily true when you sacrifice the overlord because it could just die and you see nothing.
In terms of it being "free" its the same idea as sacrificing a supply depot or pylon to scout, you still need to build another one for supply reasons....
Unless the overlord is sent super early ( ie start of game, close air metalopolis or something) it never gets away unless the opponent decides to ignore it. It's always a sacrifice.
The opportunity cost of sending a drone is actually a moot point, because other races can wall off... so you lose mining time, probably the drone, AND dont see anything. Overlords are so slow, that if the first one you sacrifice doesnt see anything, you have to play in the dark until lair and overseer. You can't just decide half way through the game to sac an overlord for scouting info, it needs to have been in position already...
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On May 04 2012 13:44 RumilDaemon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 12:45 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 04 2012 12:22 Existor wrote:
Why Terrans and Protosses can't send 2 probes instead one to scout zerg??
Zerg sending slow moving 100 minerals, that gives 8 food, and it's easy to kill. Send 2 workers and problem with big range solved! Your first overlord is free. If it escapes, then no harm done. You just got free scouting information. If you send two workers, and they both escape, you still have lost lots of mining time. You need to consider the opportunity cost. The opportunity cost also factors in the fact that you get scouting information, which isnt necessarily true when you sacrifice the overlord because it could just die and you see nothing. In terms of it being "free" its the same idea as sacrificing a supply depot or pylon to scout, you still need to build another one for supply reasons.... Unless the overlord is sent super early ( ie start of game, close air metalopolis or something) it never gets away unless the opponent decides to ignore it. It's always a sacrifice. The opportunity cost of sending a drone is actually a moot point, because other races can wall off... so you lose mining time, probably the drone, AND dont see anything. Overlords are so slow, that if the first one you sacrifice doesnt see anything, you have to play in the dark until lair and overseer. You can't just decide half way through the game to sac an overlord for scouting info, it needs to have been in position already...
And yet everything you've just said is probably less of a burden then sending 2 workers at normal scout times as a standard opening operating procedure. Which is what he was suggesting.
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On May 04 2012 13:16 Jarree wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 13:06 Madkipz wrote:On May 04 2012 12:16 Ballistixz wrote:On May 04 2012 12:09 Madkipz wrote:
Queen, range or energy won't mean a damn thing against hellions because hellions can't kill spines, and queens take ages to kill hellions. queens do fairly good dps against hellions. more then enough to push them back Only if you don't want to loose one of your SIX hellions. my point still stands. The queen attacking one hellion is just a tiny tickling that while cause for worry does not constitute to preventing or denying hellion harassment regardless of range or energy. So you need to build a rax, factory, reactor and 6 hellions to kill a 150 mineral queen that comes after spawning pool? Seems legit :D
I'm sorry for being incredibly blunt, but if you're really looking at it that simplistically you shouldn't be commenting on this at all as you clearly don't understand the situation.
No-one builds queens to kill hellions, they're built for injects and to spread creep, and to help defend.
Equally, no-one builds hellions to kill queens; they're built for map control, to slow creep spread and to deny the zerg third.
If you're looking at it in terms of unit costs, you have entirely the wrong idea about what's being discussed. People are discussing the slight change in the dynamic of queens vs. hellions, which is that queens will get slightly better at pushing hellions back. Unit costs really aren't important here.
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Hahaha you really need a sarcasm tag here
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On May 04 2012 13:48 Resistentialism wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 13:44 RumilDaemon wrote:On May 04 2012 12:45 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 04 2012 12:22 Existor wrote:
Why Terrans and Protosses can't send 2 probes instead one to scout zerg??
Zerg sending slow moving 100 minerals, that gives 8 food, and it's easy to kill. Send 2 workers and problem with big range solved! Your first overlord is free. If it escapes, then no harm done. You just got free scouting information. If you send two workers, and they both escape, you still have lost lots of mining time. You need to consider the opportunity cost. The opportunity cost also factors in the fact that you get scouting information, which isnt necessarily true when you sacrifice the overlord because it could just die and you see nothing. In terms of it being "free" its the same idea as sacrificing a supply depot or pylon to scout, you still need to build another one for supply reasons.... Unless the overlord is sent super early ( ie start of game, close air metalopolis or something) it never gets away unless the opponent decides to ignore it. It's always a sacrifice. The opportunity cost of sending a drone is actually a moot point, because other races can wall off... so you lose mining time, probably the drone, AND dont see anything. Overlords are so slow, that if the first one you sacrifice doesnt see anything, you have to play in the dark until lair and overseer. You can't just decide half way through the game to sac an overlord for scouting info, it needs to have been in position already... And yet everything you've just said is probably less of a burden then sending 2 workers at normal scout times as a standard opening operating procedure. Which is what he was suggesting.
Yeah sorry, to clarify i dont quite agree with sending 2, i think 1 scout at a normal time is fine, its not as if a zerg can deny it. in terms of scouting later (eg overlord) other races have better options than an overlord scout, eg. scan, observer, hallucinated phoenix etc. I think zerg's nature has more of an issue scouting due to the need to expand and be +1 base on the opponent, delaying tech more.
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On May 04 2012 13:20 c0ldfusion wrote:
The best zerg players already seem to have great star sense and don't seem to die to early cheese often at all. It's the tier below the very best zergs that will benefit greatly from the better scouting. I'd say that's just a biased and or a non-comprehensive assessment. When there's no way to actually see what the opponent is doing, a person cannot sense something correctly all the time. The only way it's possible is if you believe in supernatural garbage like ESP or mind-reading. I've seen many high end professional zergs lose to surprise builds. When a player has a few marines/stalker/sentry and some buildings on the edges of the base, there's absolutely no way the overlords can get near the center of the opponent's base. 2 overlords reveal more but they can still quite easily be stopped, and end up costing twice as much.
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At first I was like what on earth is a longer attack range for queens going to do, but now that I think about queen's interations with terren it seems like it help out a lot with hellions. Just have to see how much though.
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3 to 5 range seems like a bit much since marines, reapers, and hellions no longer outrange queens. It seems like Blizzard really doesn't like early game TvZ pressure.
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I wonder if the whole Kespa and BW teams had any influence on any of these changes, they have been playing SC2 for a while.
Because this whole Queen thing never came up before, has this unit seen any changes since launch at all?
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On May 04 2012 13:26 cvgHuShang wrote:
I didn't have any problems with most things except for increasing queen attack range. NO! that means that protoss will never be able to see gas timings at the 4-5 minute mark right before speed which is terrible because that's the only way to tell if zerg is all inning or not.
Hallucination. Probes can and do get scrapped by queen/zergling when they come out so I don't know what you're talking about. Probes could never see much except for the opening build order like hatch first, pool with fast gas, double hatch, etc.. Once queen and lings come out the scouting doesn't get past the natural.
On May 04 2012 14:05 Tyree wrote:
I wonder if the whole Kespa and BW teams had any influence on any of these changes, they have been playing SC2 for a while.
Because this whole Queen thing never came up before, has this unit seen any changes since launch at all?
No that sounds pretty crazy to me. The problem isn't with queens being weak, it's with a supposed problem with zerg defense in the early game (to which queen is a part of). Queen hasn't been changed since launch, but it dd have the off-creep speed reduction in the beta. Ever since that speed change it really did make sense for queens to get +1 range.
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On May 04 2012 14:05 Tyree wrote:
I wonder if the whole Kespa and BW teams had any influence on any of these changes, they have been playing SC2 for a while.
Because this whole Queen thing never came up before, has this unit seen any changes since launch at all?
they have been talking about buffing zerg early game (scouting in particular) for ever a year now. this buff, for zerg atleast, has been long overdue.
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On May 04 2012 14:09 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 13:26 cvgHuShang wrote:
I didn't have any problems with most things except for increasing queen attack range. NO! that means that protoss will never be able to see gas timings at the 4-5 minute mark right before speed which is terrible because that's the only way to tell if zerg is all inning or not. Hallucination. Probes can and do get scrapped by queen/zergling when they come out so I don't know what you're talking about. Probes could never see much except for the opening build order like hatch first, pool with fast gas, double hatch, etc.. Once queen and lings come out the scouting doesn't get past the natural. Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 14:05 Tyree wrote:
I wonder if the whole Kespa and BW teams had any influence on any of these changes, they have been playing SC2 for a while.
Because this whole Queen thing never came up before, has this unit seen any changes since launch at all? No that sounds pretty crazy to me. The problem isn't with queens being weak, it's with a supposed problem with zerg defense in the early game (to which queen is a part of). Queen hasn't been changed since launch, but it dd have the off-creep speed reduction in the beta. Ever since that speed change it really did make sense for queens to get +1 range.
Hallucination doesn't quite even research in time to deal with a roach all in let alone seeing zergling speed research, or are you saying hallucination before warpgate - that would be pretty weak.
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if the change gets in zvz will really stabilize into 15 hatch imo, because there are already builds on EU and KR (i've also seen some on NA) where you just get queens and spines to defend while devoting all larva to drones, it's already basically the go to opening... now anything other than it is suicide with this range increase, take it for what you will i guess
also, here's a choice post i found on the feedback thread on the bnet forums: "This is very stupid. Also, why would you change Antiga? The third's ramp is as big as a whale's !@#$%^"
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On May 04 2012 14:18 Endymion wrote:
also, here's a choice post i found on the feedback thread on the bnet forums: "This is very stupid. Also, why would you change Antiga? The third's ramp is as big as a whale's !@#$%^"
Isn't it obvious? Queens need more range so they can guard the large ramp 
edit: i was just making a joke on the poster who said that!
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I don't understand why they're adamant about buffing Zerg early defense along with the better scouting ability.
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It is good that they removed the queen starting energy cause that shit was ridiculous
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On May 04 2012 13:40 Jumbled wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 13:33 Doodsmack wrote:
The observer buff is a joke and it's pretty much dishonest to suggest otherwise. Protoss does not need to be buffed right now, plain and simple. 2-3 insta observers on big maps = you can't break the Protoss. I'm surprised people are so upset about it. If this change strengthens the Protoss early/mid game, especially against timing attacks, then it's also the first step in allowing Terran lategame to be buffed without throwing the entire matchup out of whack.
This seems logical, but there's no indication that blizzard is going to buff terran at any point in the future. Their acknowledgements so far have basically amounted to little more than saying "you're wrong, there's not really a problem".
/shrug
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On May 04 2012 14:36 aksfjh wrote:
I don't understand why they're adamant about buffing Zerg early defense along with the better scouting ability.
Because early game has been the chief Zerg complaint since launch. Not saying they are right but it is a common complaint between scrubs and pros
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EPT
