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Call to Action: Balance Testing (live custom map) - Page 74

Forum Index > SC2 General
2110 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 72 73 74 75 76 106 Next
Lagcraft
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States146 Posts
May 04 2012 03:21 GMT
#1461
Why would they do a range upgrade?
There goes the last haven for the reaper, might as well just give us back the firebat.
Existor
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation4295 Posts
May 04 2012 03:22 GMT
#1462
Why Terrans and Protosses can't send 2 probes instead one to scout zerg??

Zerg sending slow moving 100 minerals, that gives 8 food, and it's easy to kill. Send 2 workers and problem with big range solved!
Ballistixz
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1269 Posts
May 04 2012 03:25 GMT
#1463
On May 04 2012 12:21 Lagcraft wrote:
Why would they do a range upgrade?
There goes the last haven for the reaper, might as well just give us back the firebat.


they said reapers will be fixed in HoTS. lets wait till then before we talk about reaper balance...
Sovern
Profile Joined March 2011
United States312 Posts
May 04 2012 03:31 GMT
#1464
Thank God that this map wont do shit and wont mean anything in the grand scheme of things. I think the author of this map must be a zerg player, increasing the range of queens makes hellions borderline useless when it comes to controlling creep spread, there will be almnost no point in getting hellions if queens get a range increase. If anything they should be doing more to increase the balance of the late game of all races.

Maybe doing things such as increasing the range of Ravens, making tanks 2 supply instead of 3, balancing all of the races tier 3 so that terran, protoss, and zerg all have something to tech to instead of most macro games being about one race hitting hive tech to end the game or make it near impossible for the other race to win (see ZvP, ZvT, PvZ).
Ballistixz
Profile Joined January 2010
United States1269 Posts
May 04 2012 03:36 GMT
#1465
On May 04 2012 12:31 Sovern wrote:
Thank God that this map wont do shit and wont mean anything in the grand scheme of things. I think the author of this map must be a zerg player,



someone should tell him the bad news.
SuperYo1000
Profile Joined July 2008
United States880 Posts
May 04 2012 03:37 GMT
#1466
On May 04 2012 12:22 Existor wrote:
Why Terrans and Protosses can't send 2 probes instead one to scout zerg??

Zerg sending slow moving 100 minerals, that gives 8 food, and it's easy to kill. Send 2 workers and problem with big range solved!


do probes and scv's fly? can they hide on cliffs or scout angles that arent easy to protect? cool....Imma get on and scout with my floating probes
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
May 04 2012 03:38 GMT
#1467
On May 04 2012 12:36 Ballistixz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2012 12:31 Sovern wrote:
Thank God that this map wont do shit and wont mean anything in the grand scheme of things. I think the author of this map must be a zerg player,



someone should tell him the bad news.

im not done laughing at the fail.
Advocado
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Denmark994 Posts
May 04 2012 03:40 GMT
#1468
If you think increasing the range on queens will make hellions useless I will counter that by saying that hellions are still viable.
http://www.twitch.tv/advocadosc2
SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
May 04 2012 03:45 GMT
#1469
On May 04 2012 12:22 Existor wrote:
Why Terrans and Protosses can't send 2 probes instead one to scout zerg??

Zerg sending slow moving 100 minerals, that gives 8 food, and it's easy to kill. Send 2 workers and problem with big range solved!


Your first overlord is free. If it escapes, then no harm done. You just got free scouting information.

If you send two workers, and they both escape, you still have lost lots of mining time. You need to consider the opportunity cost.
MMA: The true King of Wings
Madkipz
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
Norway1643 Posts
May 04 2012 04:06 GMT
#1470
On May 04 2012 12:16 Ballistixz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2012 12:09 Madkipz wrote:
Queen, range or energy won't mean a damn thing against hellions because hellions can't kill spines, and queens take ages to kill hellions.



queens do fairly good dps against hellions. more then enough to push them back


Only if you don't want to loose one of your SIX hellions. my point still stands. The queen attacking one hellion is just a tiny tickling that while cause for worry does not constitute to preventing or denying hellion harassment regardless of range or energy.
"Mudkip"
cmcaneff5502
Profile Joined February 2012
United States116 Posts
May 04 2012 04:10 GMT
#1471
the fact that terran was overpowered when the game was first released is not by any means a valid argument for them being underpowered now. Doesn't anyone actually want a balanced game? It may be fun to crush one of the three races EZPZ after 15 minutes but come on, for the sake of the game it really should be balanced. So many toss users throw comments about "all last year terran imba" as if that justifies toss being imba now. That logic makes no sense, the game should have three valid races, not two valid races and a race valid up til 15 minutes.
zmansman17
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2567 Posts
May 04 2012 04:15 GMT
#1472
On May 04 2012 06:39 Salteador Neo wrote:
There are less terrans because it's the hardest race to play at decent levels, not the weakest.

Ofc it has to be because it has the most cost-effective units if we want a balanced game at the highest level.


You are right in every part except in saying Terran's units are cost effective. To be skilled at Terran, one MUST make his units cost effective. But on their own, they are very squishy.
♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞
Jarree
Profile Joined January 2012
Finland1004 Posts
May 04 2012 04:16 GMT
#1473
On May 04 2012 13:06 Madkipz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2012 12:16 Ballistixz wrote:
On May 04 2012 12:09 Madkipz wrote:
Queen, range or energy won't mean a damn thing against hellions because hellions can't kill spines, and queens take ages to kill hellions.



queens do fairly good dps against hellions. more then enough to push them back


Only if you don't want to loose one of your SIX hellions. my point still stands. The queen attacking one hellion is just a tiny tickling that while cause for worry does not constitute to preventing or denying hellion harassment regardless of range or energy.

So you need to build a rax, factory, reactor and 6 hellions to kill a 150 mineral queen that comes after spawning pool? Seems legit :D
zmansman17
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2567 Posts
May 04 2012 04:19 GMT
#1474
On May 04 2012 07:17 Talack wrote:
Terrans saying they are having too hard of a time beating the other two races without doing all-ins or extreme aggression earlier.

Protoss/Zerg telling the terrans they're just bad and that their race is way too strong.

Productive thread It's a shame that terrans don't get the option of playing the way they want to and instead have to play the way the other two races tell them to do ><


Yeah sadly that is the extent of this thread. I've been around the block for a while now as Terran and it's never been as hard as the last 2 seasons. Whatever people want to say, I think Tastosis said it best during last night's GSL cast: "Terrans are having a difficult time versus Protoss because Protoss has figured out Terran's timings. The idea that drops used to do damage does not exist anymore. Those timings are defended. And Terrans are left wandering what to do."

Take it or leave it, but that's the reality. I've actually made the INTENTIONAL step of taking drop play out of my style (still use that shit in TvZ) because it tends to be so cost inefficient as soon as HT tech is out.
♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞
c0ldfusion
Profile Joined October 2010
United States8293 Posts
May 04 2012 04:20 GMT
#1475
On May 04 2012 12:38 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2012 12:36 Ballistixz wrote:
On May 04 2012 12:31 Sovern wrote:
Thank God that this map wont do shit and wont mean anything in the grand scheme of things. I think the author of this map must be a zerg player,



someone should tell him the bad news.

im not done laughing at the fail.


I lol'd

I think the queen range change will make a bigger difference than the OL speed buff at the top level. In fact, it's probably not needed. It's not like hellions kiting queens is game breaking.

The best zerg players already seem to have great star sense and don't seem to die to early cheese often at all. It's the tier below the very best zergs that will benefit greatly from the better scouting.
zmansman17
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2567 Posts
May 04 2012 04:22 GMT
#1476
On May 04 2012 07:55 Sadistx wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2012 07:51 hanlonbro wrote:
If Queens will be allowed to have +25 then I think that so should Orbitals and Nexus.

edit. not the first nexus at the start, but any additional ones


That's actually a good idea. I think terrans should be able to scout and keep up in eco at the same time, like P/Z can.


Sure, why not. Let's just give everything a bunch of energy. Reminds me of the gall of this Zerg poster a little while back:


On May 04 2012 05:26 zerglingrodeo wrote:
The queen change actually makes it a lot more mechanically difficult for zerg because now we will feel obligated to spawn a creep tumor every time a new queen completes. And we will feel obligated to constantly make queens.


To which I replied:

Yeah I'd be complaining if I had an extra 50 energy on my OC as well. I might feel compelled to just scan a random part of the map. So many options.
♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞
zmansman17
Profile Joined March 2011
United States2567 Posts
May 04 2012 04:24 GMT
#1477
On May 04 2012 07:57 Kimaker wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 04 2012 06:56 sieksdekciw wrote:
On May 04 2012 06:33 Kimaker wrote:
On May 04 2012 06:17 teamhozac wrote:
On May 04 2012 06:09 neoghaleon55 wrote:
On May 04 2012 05:05 zmansman17 wrote:
On May 04 2012 04:32 Shiori wrote:
On May 04 2012 03:50 Leth0 wrote:
On May 04 2012 03:47 Hypemeup wrote:
Well, this means no more stargate play in PvZ and TvZ will be a weird(good zergs already have wicked Creepspread), Why would they want to fuck with TvZ, its really well balanced at the moment.


I remember when they were testing 4 range roaches and people would say

"well, this means no more fast expanding play in PvZ"

Point is, none of you know wtf you are talking about.

I remember when people said the Ghost nerf would make it useless against lategame Zerg.

Oops, looks like they were right.

Just because people over-estimated a change in BETA doesn't mean that bad ideas don't exist today.



I can't see Terran lasting much longer. Queens with 50 energy is reprehensible. This sort of change is ridiculous and even takes away from the sort of decisions that make this a strategy game (i.e. When do I drop that creep tumor versus when do I inject?). That element of uncertainty and decision-making is what makes a good RTS.

I'm a Rank 1 Master Terran and if all of these changes come into effect, I will quit this game. It's hard enough studying for the LSAT while trying to stay active on Sc2, but this will indeed be the final straw. The International win rates of TvP and TvZ are, at this moment, artificially higher than what they should be. Since so many Terrans have dropped from the race as a result of their inability to win (having either switched races, stopped ladder matches, or quit the game entirely), the Win % of the remaining Terrans has increased, but again this increase is artificial.

This increase comes from the reduction of the weaker Terran players who have left. The win rate of the remaining Terran players could have still gone down, or remained the same. People should re-read that bit if they do not understand it. The evidence of this can be seen on NA and EU where Terrans count for 1/4 of the race selections in the GM and Master Leagues. This was not the case a few months ago.

Additionally, Terrans are now winning in the Early or Mid-Game stages from All-in or Semi-All-in strategies. They recognize, as MVP did versus Naniwa, that opting for a Mid-Late to Late Game versus Protoss is to put yourself at a severe disadvantage. If only David Kim had released Win % per unit of Time, so that it could be in evidence that Terran players are winning more early and increasingly less later on. But of course he did not do this, because to do so would illuminate the already glaring problem of late game TvP (which he notoriously left out).

It's my belief that over the next few months, Protoss will adapt to these Early and Mid-Game strategies (with safer builds like the 2 Gate we have been seeing in the GSL), and they will stave off these attacks, grant a Late Game scenario and mop up the Terran as a result.

The Korean Win rates for April have been released and you can see that Terran is taking a swift fall. Expect this to continue because there is no unit or strategy that Terran has not employed that will change this outcome. Terrans can move more to the Early and Mid-Game timings, which indeed they will. But after these options become known and exhausted, Terran is left with nowhere to go. Great Balance!



Terran whiners need to stop perpetuating the myth that Terrans are disappearing from ladder,,,
They are not!

Here's a formal statement from blizzard themselves according to their statistics

http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4254523958?page=16#314


It is definitely NOT a myth

http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/al

You're serious? Oh, GOD FUCKING FORBID, Terrans are underrepresented by a few percentage points, they must be fleeing the game in droves!

What do you expect? All three races are NEVER going to equally represented, and that graph isn't so bad. Platinum is the only league where the numbers are a bit troublesome, the rest...whatever. There are a lot of factors that determine what race someone plays, not just balance.


You hypocrite. If a terran wins a tournament, people like you start crying 'Terran is imba omg omg' and eventhough tournaments are dominated by tosses and last gsl final was zvp, when we complain that casual players disappear, we are not allowed to complain? For that matter, how many tournaments were taken by a foreigner terran? 1? Yeah, that figures, cause terran is so imba. God fucking forbid you play terran someday and I guarantee you that if you are a master toss, you probably have the skill to be at most a plat/low diamond terran.

Edit. Saw your region, which is reputably the region with the worst players. Maybe terrans still stick there cause other players are that bad and can't beat them. However, in other regions you have to be a MONSTER with at least 10% more the skill than your toss and zerg opponent to beat him.

I argue there is slight imbalance of 10% in favor in zerg and toss according to statistics, which basically means that a terran who wins a game against equally ranked toss or zerg opponent is actually 10% or more better than his opponent if the game was balanced. What do you argue? You argue that a few percentage points are not a big deal. How many percentages is going to convince you that you are utterly wrong?

LOL, no. I avoid balance whining and make fun of it where ever I find it. Congratulations on your baseless character attack.

Also, representation does not inversely show skill. As I said, there are MANY reasons for the race a person picks, not necessarily ease to win with it. I switched to Protoss from when everyone was saying Terran OP because I didn't like the way T played and I found it aesthetically displeasing. Not for "win rates".


So you are claiming that Terran is the "ease to win" race? Well, that's a funny statement coming from a Protoss player. Thanks for the joke - I really dug the irony.
♞ - His EKG is flattening get me a defib stat! Prepped and Ready! - ♞
cvgHuShang
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada95 Posts
May 04 2012 04:26 GMT
#1478
I didn't have any problems with most things except for increasing queen attack range. NO! that means that protoss will never be able to see gas timings at the 4-5 minute mark right before speed which is terrible because that's the only way to tell if zerg is all inning or not.
Make love not war, condoms are cheaper than guns.
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
May 04 2012 04:33 GMT
#1479
The observer buff is a joke and it's pretty much dishonest to suggest otherwise. Protoss does not need to be buffed right now, plain and simple. 2-3 insta observers on big maps = you can't break the Protoss.
SolidMoose
Profile Joined June 2011
United States1240 Posts
May 04 2012 04:37 GMT
#1480
They changed the zerg buff to another buff that also doesn't make sense. Once again, I don't get why they put in these totally random buffs when absolutely no one in the world ever complained about queen range. I'm losing faith in their ability to understand what needs to be done with this game.
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