EPTCall to Action: Balance Testing (live custom map) - Page 14
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AndreiDaGiant
United States394 Posts
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Bidj
France98 Posts
On May 03 2012 11:53 TheRabidDeer wrote: The changes target pro players, yes... but the thing is, pro players dont always know best. Pro players will always argue for what is in their best interest. Also, appeal to authority much? Even if pro players will sometimes (not always) argue for what is in their best interest, they do know best or at least far better than the average Master player who think he is a fount of knowledge. Dunning–Kruger effect much ? | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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LRObot
United States153 Posts
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shmee
United States28 Posts
On May 03 2012 11:32 KawaiiRice wrote: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DI9Ne.jpg) If there is nothing wrong with this image I don't know what to say to you. What's the complaint then? If zerg specifically builds queens to spread creep and prioritizes creep spread (as all you did testing this was creep spread) and the opponent does NOTHING to stop it, then you can have good creep spread by the 10-minute mark? That's like if I playtested where I did nothing but double-CC-first and built nothing but ebays and raxes with reactors, then claimed marines were imba because I had 200/200 2/2 marines at 12 minutes. If you can play a game against zerg where your early pressure is completely impotent and you can't even deny creep and the zerg's creep spread is that good and you could do nothing, then you may have an argument. All you've done here is cherry-pick a situation to make something seem imba. You want imba? Try doing the double-queen-creep-spread build and having all your forward creep tumors taken out by a single scan. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On May 03 2012 11:33 Solo Terran wrote: I'm a Masters Terran and I played about 5 games vs a master level zerg. I didn't find these changes to actually affect the game that much from the terran perspective. I went 13 gas into reactored hellions and they we're at the natural in time to deny creep from being spread to the third. However you have to constantly scout with your hellions because there are so many more places they can land tumors now. Which is APM taxing but fine. I eventually got out a raven and killed all the creep spread at a normal 10 minute timing push. I guess the zerg could see it coming a bit earlier but nothing huge. Overlord speed upgrade is fine imo. I only think this nerfs the 15 gas -> expand -> reactored hellion build because then the hellions won't be there in time to stop creep spread on multiple fronts. Overall I think it's fine from a Terran perspective, queen energy may be a bit much, something like 35-40 would be ideal most likely. I don't know about ZvP though. You are not gonna see drastic change that fast. It takes a while for people to figure out and optimize builds, timings. Right now people don't even know they should use 4 queens, or change it to 3,.v.v.v.v..v.v | ||
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
I go back to my previous point, and blizzard very well could have just increased queen speed, or queen damage. Those are the changes that affect all levels and I don't generally like. Changes like this at least are coming at balance from the point of view that players with higher APM can use these changes. Same goes for scouting. Your average player sends in an OL and might not even know what he is looking for. A pro player can use that information to make a better choice. I think we've seen at the highest levels how pro players are great at denying scouting and it gets old watching players win/lose based on if they happen to get an OL which moves slow as shit into the base and see something meaningful. I mean nobody ever lost a game because creep crawled into their base and killed their buildings. You still have to engage right, still have to have the right composition. Agree or don't agree with the changes, but everyone should agree that this approach to balance is good. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On May 03 2012 10:01 aksfjh wrote: Good thing we're all MKP and Thorzain. The observer change is just going to reinforce the trend to make more to scout for drops and army position, not to mention reduce the margin for error in banshee builds. So, your complaint is.... I'm not good enough, so even though the opposing race is having trouble at the pro level and could use a very slight buff, they shouldn't get it because I'm not good enough? | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On May 03 2012 11:59 Bidj wrote: Even if pro players will sometimes (not always) argue for what is in their best interest, they do know best or at least far better than the average Master player who think he is a fount of knowledge. Dunning–Kruger effect much ? -You and pro players argue that creep spread will be OUT OF CONTROL. -Kawaii posts a picture with good creep spread on the proposed map -You and others GASP in the absurdity of the creep spread -I post 2 pictures, one on the new map and one on the current patch, with very little difference in the distance creep has traveled. Ignored. You are gonna have to prove any kind of dunning-kruger effect, when I have already proved that creep spread is not significantly different between the two. With the 4 queen build it changes nothing. With only 2 queens it lets zerg spread creep. | ||
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GuYuTe-
United States550 Posts
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dde
Canada796 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
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Lumi
United States1612 Posts
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On May 03 2012 11:38 Templare wrote: Terran has scan. If a Protoss dt rushes an unprepared Terran, it is easy for the Terran to simply scan. A Protoss player has to build a robo for detection. It is highly unlikely that every time you go for cloaked banshees that the Protoss player will even have a robotics facility. You obviously haven't played much Terran before. | ||
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On May 03 2012 12:04 avilo wrote: You obviously haven't played much Terran before. Now now, it's not his fault the race is mysteriously missing everywhere except Korea and Blizzard data. | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On May 03 2012 12:08 aksfjh wrote: Now now, it's not his fault the race is mysteriously missing everywhere except Korea and Blizzard data. This just in: Thorzain mysteriously disappears | ||
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Enhancer_
Canada320 Posts
On May 03 2012 11:48 TheRabidDeer wrote: One is current patch, the other is with the proposed 50 energy queen. Both used the same build and scout path to obtain 4 queens. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zEHdM.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XGxed.jpg) Depends if you used the inital Queen energy (non-patched) for an inject or not. You can't really increase the speed that creep spreads because they're still limited by their cooldowns. The only thing that changes is that initial tumor is out a single cycle faster and you can spread in more directions with fewer Queens as you build them. I'm not convinced that it's as game changing as people complain about, so at least it's being tested. People who actively deny creep spread will still be able to do that. | ||
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GwSC
United States1997 Posts
On May 03 2012 12:03 ZenithM wrote: Well IdrA whined enough and got his patch apparently. All changes seem at best unwarranted, at worse downright over the top (queens with 50 energy? let's remove the early choice of putting down a tumor instead of injecting...) You're right, these changes are completely based on Idra's whining. LOL. Are you kidding me? | ||
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On May 03 2012 12:11 Enhancer_ wrote: Depends if you used the inital Queen energy (non-patched) for an inject or not. You can't really increase the speed that creep spreads because they're still limited by their cooldowns. The only thing that changes is that initial tumor is out a single cycle faster and you can spread in more directions with fewer Queens as you build them. I'm not convinced that it's as game changing as people complain about, so at least it's being tested. People who actively deny creep spread will still be able to do that. Exactly. And in both games I used the first 2 queens for injects (and in the case of the new 50 energy queens an inject and a tumor for each) and the following 2 queens purely for creep spread. | ||
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