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On May 03 2012 09:23 corpuscle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 09:17 windsupernova wrote:
I.. like the changes. Starting Queen energy will encourage more early creep spread and in case of building defensive queens you can get a transfuse faster nice. I don't know why people are complaining about this one. Because it's really hard to push onto creep, and if zergs are gonna have it out 45 seconds earlier or whatever it is, it's going to get ridiculous. It's a humongous nerf to reactor hellion and stargate openings, among others. It's also not really clear why Blizzard thinks Zerg is having these problems. They're having trouble in GSL, yeah, but that's because the players played bad, not because Zerg is too weak. edit: I did a 4-queen opening with delayed gas and had creep halfway across Tal'Darim in ten minutes. This is fucking absurd, I don't see how they could think this change was a good idea at all.
The last two seasons in the GSL has seen 1 Zerg in the RO8, and Zerg wasn't exactly well represented before that.
Blizzard is recognizing that Zerg is fragile and loses to allins / cheese / pressure far more often than either of the other two races, especially terran. That's why these changes are being made.
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On May 03 2012 11:32 KawaiiRice wrote:![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DI9Ne.jpg) If there is nothing wrong with this image I don't know what to say to you.
floating 6k+ minerals at the 10 k mark!!!??
all this proves is that two queens dedicated to creep spread is effective at spreading creep...
next...
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Playing vs massive creep spreads is what stimulates early all-ins, at least for me, this will just make me allin more, I don't wanna play vs NSHSSeal every game.
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On May 03 2012 11:39 TheSwamp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 11:32 mTwTT1 wrote:
zerg is already the best defencive race because of the larva inject mechanic, if u wanna make it easier for them to hold allins off just tweak the spine crawler build time.. why do they always try to overcomplicate everything? LOL Yeah, it's awesome being able to spawn roaches and lings anywhere on the map. I also love the way my units can alter the map layout. The best though is when I don't have detection and I can auto wall my ramp vs DTs. Shit's so awesome.
theres a reason why ur race can hold off early game pressures while maxing out at 11-12mins, ur just narrow minded so the first thing that popped up in ur mind is that can protoss can warpin anywhere on the map which by default must make them the ultimate defencive race, sadly u just dont understand the game
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On May 03 2012 11:38 Templare wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 11:25 iAmJeffReY wrote:
Time to cut every single cloak banshee build I do vs toss...They already pop before you can kill 5-6 probes, especially if they PULL the probes, and chrono the robo. It, as most buffs to protoss, makes another terran unit obsolete as a harass tool, in my mind.
So...like how 1 chrono gets 2 probes out so fast...now 1 chrono will get an OB out almost instantly...
This is such a sad list of changes as a terran player. If you DON'T open up early hellions, it's almost impossible to hinder/stop creep as is. Terran has scan. If a Protoss dt rushes an unprepared Terran, it is easy for the Terran to simply scan. A Protoss player has to build a robo for detection. It is highly unlikely that every time you go for cloaked banshees that the Protoss player will even have a robotics facility.
But unless you know DT's are coming you should never have energy for a scan. If your only on two orbital's and you have energy for scans at any time then you are not macroing correctly.
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patch seems to be a step into the right direction
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One is current patch, the other is with the proposed 50 energy queen. Both used the same build and scout path to obtain 4 queens.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zEHdM.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XGxed.jpg)
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this is stupid, you shouldnt be able to just spread creep across them map by default now, if you want to do it you should need to delay gas and prioritize different things
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You guys are saying it looks wrong only because you're used to creep spread progressing much slower. If it had been like this since release (which it probably should have) no one would be complaining. Zerg SHOULD be able to cover their half of the map relatively quickly. The psychological impact of a Terran or Protoss watching creep invade their space was always intended to be a present factor in playing Zerg.
Note that your image is taken from a test map with no opposing forces even attempting to deny the creep. How pointless.
If there's any reason to decry the Queen energy change, it's the fact that, as a few people have brought up, it removes choice from the game. Rather than sacrificing an early inject as a calculated trade-off for faster creep spread, Queens will now simply end up just spawning, injecting, laying tumor, and going back to the hatch. On the other hand, the additional energy does open more versatility for Queens spawned later in the game, since they will have the choice between an instant Transfusion or Inject/Tumor or double Tumor. This I think makes up for the slight loss of depth in choices with the first Queen or two in the very early game.
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On May 03 2012 11:46 mTwTT1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 11:39 TheSwamp wrote:On May 03 2012 11:32 mTwTT1 wrote:
zerg is already the best defencive race because of the larva inject mechanic, if u wanna make it easier for them to hold allins off just tweak the spine crawler build time.. why do they always try to overcomplicate everything? LOL Yeah, it's awesome being able to spawn roaches and lings anywhere on the map. I also love the way my units can alter the map layout. The best though is when I don't have detection and I can auto wall my ramp vs DTs. Shit's so awesome. theres a reason why ur race can hold off early game pressures while maxing out at 11-12mins, ur just narrow minded so the first thing that popped up in ur head is that can protoss can warpin anywhere on the map which by default makes them the ultimate defencive race, u still dont understand this game tt
Terran is actually the most defensive race. It's completely possible to lose against a 2-rax even if you scout it and react reasonably well, it's pretty impossible to lose to a 1-base baneling bust if you know what you're doing.
When Zerg allins are scouted, they generally fail to a competent defense. When Zerg is allin'd, they generally have to execute the defense flawlessly or they lose, and anything less than perfect will probably let the game go on.
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Canada13389 Posts
On May 03 2012 11:44 swinkles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 11:32 KawaiiRice wrote:If there is nothing wrong with this image I don't know what to say to you. floating 6k+ minerals at the 10 k mark!!!?? all this proves is that two queens dedicated to creep spread is effective at spreading creep... next...
Do you know who KawaiiRice is?
Hes floating these minerals and gas because he is showing a proof in concept:
Queens can spread creep fast. If they are protected to prevent them getting easily sniped (on creep mind you they are pretty quick and armoured so zealots can't chase and hellions do nothing to them in early game) then creep spreads really far really fast.
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On May 03 2012 11:44 swinkles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 11:32 KawaiiRice wrote:If there is nothing wrong with this image I don't know what to say to you. floating 6k+ minerals at the 10 k mark!!!?? all this proves is that two queens dedicated to creep spread is effective at spreading creep... next...
And that was exactly the point he was trying to prove by playing a game which was probably against an easy computer. Because yeah, some Z already make 4 queens on 2 bases and dedicate them to creep spreading if there is no imminent pressure. So thanks to agreeing with his point which is creep spread is insane with only 2 queens dedicated to it.
Next...
By the way, too much people arguing with people like KawaiiRice, Avilo, Orb, TT1, etc. Those changes target pro players, if you don't earn some kind of money from starcraft, don't argue with people who do, or at least take their claim in consideration.
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On May 03 2012 11:12 KawaiiRice wrote:
Overlord speed change is gonna help zerg ridiculously much.
-on cloud kingdom that overlord is guaranteed to get on the cliff above your natural now, and can't be sniped by rax float
-any build Terran does which cuts marines for either fast 3rd, cloakshees or marauder hellion allin cannot stop a full scout of the base by overlords sent in from two sides -_- zerg should never lose much to the pressure openings and is allowed to greed ridiculously hard
Queen change only compliments the overlord joke
-creep spread can probably reach the middle by or pre-10 minutes with constant spreading... which we will probably only see in the highest level of zerg games... for some reason a lot of players have bad creep spread
-on maps like antiga the creep will be past the third base ramp so fast that hellions will never be able to deny the third without worrying about speedlings on creep, or roaches can just block hellion movement easily thanks to vision halfway to the middle of the map.
-any marauder hellion or siege tank marine allins (the latter is already terrible) are now infinitely easier to hold thanks to speed bonus for lings and banes.
So blizzard is trying to make zerg a race that cannot be allined by anything short of a proxy 2rax effectively, thanks to perfect scouting and defense mechanisms. Combined with the larva/spawn larva mechanic I would just leave any TvZ I played ever again.
oh stop being a drama queen. Just go test it out before you cry about it.
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On May 03 2012 11:51 ZeromuS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 11:44 swinkles wrote:On May 03 2012 11:32 KawaiiRice wrote:If there is nothing wrong with this image I don't know what to say to you. floating 6k+ minerals at the 10 k mark!!!?? all this proves is that two queens dedicated to creep spread is effective at spreading creep... next... Do you know who KawaiiRice is? Hes floating these minerals and gas because he is showing a proof in concept: Queens can spread creep fast. If they are protected to prevent them getting easily sniped (on creep mind you they are pretty quick and armoured so zealots can't chase and hellions do nothing to them in early game) then creep spreads really far really fast.
...
The point is that it isn't a realistic look at what creep spread will look like in an actual game. It shows what happens when a player dedicates 2 queens exclusively to creep spread in the early game with nothing else to worry about.
Creep is supposed to be Zerg's first line of defense, if Zergs are losing to allins it makes sense to buff creep.
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On May 03 2012 11:51 Bidj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 11:44 swinkles wrote:On May 03 2012 11:32 KawaiiRice wrote:If there is nothing wrong with this image I don't know what to say to you. floating 6k+ minerals at the 10 k mark!!!?? all this proves is that two queens dedicated to creep spread is effective at spreading creep... next... And that was exactly the point he was trying to prove by playing a game which was probably against an easy computer. Because yeah, some Z already make 4 queens on 2 bases and dedicate them to creep spreading if there is no imminent pressure. So thanks to agreeing with his point which is creep spread is insane with only 2 queens dedicated to it. Next... By the way, too much people arguing with people like KawaiiRice, Avilo, Orb, TT1, etc. Those changes target pro players, if you don't earn some kind of money from starcraft, don't argue with people who do, or at least take their claim in consideration.
The changes target pro players, yes... but the thing is, pro players dont always know best. Pro players will always argue for what is in their best interest.
Also, appeal to authority much?
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On May 03 2012 11:28 Holytornados wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 11:20 KawaiiRice wrote:On May 03 2012 11:17 TheRabidDeer wrote:On May 03 2012 11:12 KawaiiRice wrote:
Overlord speed change is gonna help zerg ridiculously much.
-on cloud kingdom that overlord is guaranteed to get on the cliff above your natural now, and can't be sniped by rax float
-any build Terran does which cuts marines for either fast 3rd, cloakshees or marauder hellion allin cannot stop a full scout of the base by overlords sent in from two sides -_- zerg should never lose much to the pressure openings and is allowed to greed ridiculously hard So... youre pissed that you can no longer allin and prevent the zerg from having any chance of knowing its coming? Why do you want an easy win? Why should zerg be the only race that cant prepare for such an all-in? I cant prevent you from scanning my base and seeing what I am doing... honestly, I wouldve expected more from you kawaii. are you serious? I go rax cc every single game LOL the problem is theres literally NO ambiguity in what terran is doing and zerg can actually get ahead just by scouting and hitting sddddddddd 10 more times depending on what they scout or making lings and a bane nest if they see marauder hellion/other pressure builds. which you already could do before, but with blizzard's idiot assitance everyone will now be able to do it I'm on Kawaii's side. If a zerg easily scouts Terran just macroing, they will get insanely ahead on drones.
Except what non-Zerg players are not realizing here is that this isn't about "easy scouting". It's about actually being able to have a reliable form of earlygame scouting. Currently, whether or not a Zerg is able to scout his opponent is a complete coin flip for the Zerg, there is no reasonable way to scout your opponent and know how to respond.
With faster speed Zerg will have a much better chance of actually seeing useful information instead of blindly throwing a dart at the board hoping to see some crucial information that means the difference between staying alive or outright losing the game.
The speed upgrade is looooooooong overdue. I don't know how I feel about the Queen energy change, it seems good and I'll take it, it'll be useful especially with being able to instantly cast a Transfuse especially in situations like vs Banshees or Voids.
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High master Z here and I'm only alright with the ovie speed but don't know how much faster that will actually be. I'd only approve of a very slight change. Everything else sounds ridiculous. They talk about the lower levels being balanced b ut want to help creep spread like dealing with hellions is a problem at the pro level? ???? Inconsistent.
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On May 03 2012 11:51 Bidj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 11:44 swinkles wrote:On May 03 2012 11:32 KawaiiRice wrote:If there is nothing wrong with this image I don't know what to say to you. floating 6k+ minerals at the 10 k mark!!!?? all this proves is that two queens dedicated to creep spread is effective at spreading creep... next... And that was exactly the point he was trying to prove by playing a game which was probably against an easy computer. Because yeah, some Z already make 4 queens on 2 bases and dedicate them to creep spreading if there is no imminent pressure. So thanks to agreeing with his point which is creep spread is insane with only 2 queens dedicated to it. Next... By the way, too much people arguing with people like KawaiiRice, Avilo, Orb, TT1, etc. Those changes target pro players, if you don't earn some kind of money from starcraft, don't argue with people who do, or at least take their claim in consideration.
Yes, when we want to know the truth about balance, lets ask players who have a vested interest in saying the changes suck.
It's pretty obvious why your list doesn't include a Zerg.
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Time to spend hours trolling this map with horrible builds. :D
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On May 03 2012 11:53 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2012 11:51 ZeromuS wrote:On May 03 2012 11:44 swinkles wrote:On May 03 2012 11:32 KawaiiRice wrote:If there is nothing wrong with this image I don't know what to say to you. floating 6k+ minerals at the 10 k mark!!!?? all this proves is that two queens dedicated to creep spread is effective at spreading creep... next... Do you know who KawaiiRice is? Hes floating these minerals and gas because he is showing a proof in concept: Queens can spread creep fast. If they are protected to prevent them getting easily sniped (on creep mind you they are pretty quick and armoured so zealots can't chase and hellions do nothing to them in early game) then creep spreads really far really fast. ... The point is that it isn't a realistic look at what creep spread will look like in an actual game. It shows what happens when a player dedicates 2 queens exclusively to creep spread in the early game with nothing else to worry about. Creep is supposed to be Zerg's first line of defense, if Zergs are losing to allins it makes sense to buff creep.
So, you're saying Zergs should focus on creep spread instead of getting buffs queen energy and overlord speed. That seems fair. 
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EPT
