EPTCall to Action: Balance Testing (live custom map) - Page 11
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
-on cloud kingdom that overlord is guaranteed to get on the cliff above your natural now, and can't be sniped by rax float -any build Terran does which cuts marines for either fast 3rd, cloakshees or marauder hellion allin cannot stop a full scout of the base by overlords sent in from two sides -_- zerg should never lose much to the pressure openings and is allowed to greed ridiculously hard Queen change only compliments the overlord joke -creep spread can probably reach the middle by or pre-10 minutes with constant spreading... which we will probably only see in the highest level of zerg games... for some reason a lot of players have bad creep spread -on maps like antiga the creep will be past the third base ramp so fast that hellions will never be able to deny the third without worrying about speedlings on creep, or roaches can just block hellion movement easily thanks to vision halfway to the middle of the map. -any marauder hellion or siege tank marine allins (the latter is already terrible) are now infinitely easier to hold thanks to speed bonus for lings and banes. So blizzard is trying to make zerg a race that cannot be allined by anything short of a proxy 2rax effectively, thanks to perfect scouting and defense mechanisms. Combined with the larva/spawn larva mechanic I would just leave any TvZ I played ever again. | ||
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windsupernova
Mexico5280 Posts
On May 03 2012 11:08 Swords wrote: Didn't the most recent win rates show that the game was pretty damn balanced? Most of these changes, aside from the Overlord one seem pretty drastic in terms of how much it will affect the game. Extra energy Queens are really going to shift the early game in all 3 matchups and fast obs will definitely affect robo timings as well (I see this being most prevalent actually in PvP - DTs are going to be way less viable with obs taking less time to get out.) At some point don't they just have to say, "This game is pretty balanced right now, let's not fuck with it and see how the metagame continues to develop"? Unfortunately as long as the community keeps whining about balance Blizzard is forced to address some of those complaints. | ||
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Treva
United States533 Posts
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TheRabidDeer
United States3806 Posts
On May 03 2012 11:12 KawaiiRice wrote: Overlord speed change is gonna help zerg ridiculously much. -on cloud kingdom that overlord is guaranteed to get on the cliff above your natural now, and can't be sniped by rax float -any build Terran does which cuts marines for either fast 3rd, cloakshees or marauder hellion allin cannot stop a full scout of the base by overlords sent in from two sides -_- zerg should never lose much to the pressure openings and is allowed to greed ridiculously hard So... youre pissed that you can no longer allin and prevent the zerg from having any chance of knowing its coming? Why do you want an easy win? Why should zerg be the only race that cant prepare for such an all-in? I cant prevent you from scanning my base and seeing what I am doing... honestly, I wouldve expected more from you kawaii. | ||
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pdd
Australia9933 Posts
I really don't see what kind of changes could be made to PvT Protoss that would make a big difference in the matchup. If you make storm do less damage it becomes useless as most of the time terrans don't sit in the storm for a full duration anyway so it isn't going to help. People used to complain about collossus being boring and not dynamic and all protoss would do and I don't think we want to go back to those days. Making emp a larger radius would also really hurt protoss yet again and too much since we all saw what it did vs non-HT armies in the past and it would make the HT armies we see now be a complete joke I am sure. Buff Thors, BCs, Ravens, or perhaps even buffing Vikings a little bit. Nerfing Colossi a little bit. There's quite a lot of things which Blizzard can do to try to give Terrans more options in the late game. I still feel the answer is in buffing Thors, BC, Ravens or Vikings as it doesn't really impact on their early/mid game, but will have a tremendous impact on the late game. I mean they even went the route of adding a fleet beacon upgrade to help PvZ vs mutalisk. Why not add a fusion core upgrade which gives Thors some light vs Ground splash so they do well against late-game Chargelots? (I'm just giving a suggestion, not that I think that is the answer to lategame TvP problems) | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On May 03 2012 09:22 Karak wrote: rofl because the match-up is so finely tuned right now that a bonus 25 starting energy on the queen is suddenly going to change everything. Come. On. When you can have creep over half way across the map by the 8 minute mark...yes. Tbh, why is there no Terran buff? No raven energy tweak to make them viable, no nothing for T lategame? Buff protoss/zerg further? A bit disappointing, I forsee many more players switching race to Z or P if any of these changes go through, myself included. Blizzard is completely out of touch with this game right now. VS both Z and P Terran is in huge trouble lategame. Every tool we've had was taken away, mainly ghosts vs Zerg and a combination of previous P buffs/T nerfs has made TvP lategame a joke. Ravens can be the science vessels of TvZ, but not with their energy how it currently is, the amount of time necessary (125 energy) to get 1 HSM usually means you do not have the time to viably get a HSM b4 new broodlords / corruptors are morphed, or you already have to be in a 1 hr defensive game. Lategame TvP...chargelots are basically the problem, but the fact that Terran has no viable transition tech path, nothing to use other than "more marine, more marauder" is really bad. Something needs to change on blizzard's balancing/outlook because Terrans are in dire straights right now. The queen change is unnecessary and would make creep spread too easy/abusive along with transfuse on spines allowing Z to hold off every allin/aggression easily. The observer change is also unnecessary, just another buff to the *arguably* most powerful race right now. Overlord change is also unnecessary. I've offraced as Z, easy as hell to figure out what T is doing by now because everyone knows how to play the game. Yes, in beta when no one knew wtf was going on...of course no one knew what was going on. Nowadays though it's more obvious. No need to make Zerg even better. Disappointing "balance" work from blizzard again. I hope other Terrans will speak up other than myself. | ||
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Swords
6038 Posts
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KawaiiRice
United States2914 Posts
On May 03 2012 11:17 TheRabidDeer wrote: So... youre pissed that you can no longer allin and prevent the zerg from having any chance of knowing its coming? Why do you want an easy win? Why should zerg be the only race that cant prepare for such an all-in? I cant prevent you from scanning my base and seeing what I am doing... honestly, I wouldve expected more from you kawaii. are you serious? I go rax cc every single game LOL the problem is theres literally NO ambiguity in what terran is doing and zerg can actually get ahead just by scouting and hitting sddddddddd 10 more times depending on what they scout or making lings and a bane nest if they see marauder hellion/other pressure builds. which you already could do before, but with blizzard's idiot assitance everyone will now be able to do it | ||
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Raid
United States398 Posts
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aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On May 03 2012 11:17 TheRabidDeer wrote: So... youre pissed that you can no longer allin and prevent the zerg from having any chance of knowing its coming? Why do you want an easy win? Why should zerg be the only race that cant prepare for such an all-in? I cant prevent you from scanning my base and seeing what I am doing... honestly, I wouldve expected more from you kawaii. Because scan reveals HUGE chunks of the map and nothing can escape the peering eye of Terran! It's one thing to be diligent and careful with building placement and proactive creep spread. It's a completely different thing to give Zerg the tools to scout any build and be prepared for it while simultaneously being incredibly greedy. | ||
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SarcasmMonster
3136 Posts
On May 03 2012 11:13 windsupernova wrote: Unfortunately as long as the community keeps whining about balance Blizzard is forced to address some of those complaints. It pays to QQ. Many commenters in this thread are doing a good job at it too. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
On May 03 2012 10:59 aksfjh wrote: Not rush into anything? Zerg has been in a slump for this GSL alone, and they're already kneejerk patching it. The only place Terran is still strong/popular is Korea, at least by all evidence beyond Blizzard data (which we don't have). They would be pretty poor if they purely looked at the win-rates, early game TvZ is and has been a soft spot for a lot longer than just this past GSL and they've had more than enough DRG vs MarineKing finals to look over to be certain about the kinds of changes they want to make, that only 3 zergs have had any kind of consistent success against Code-S caliber players is just another data point. The TvP changes on the other hand are more difficult to put a finger on, when ghosts were stronger they were just winning games in a single battle, and any changes you make to colossus has a run on effect in multiple match ups. By contrast, changing early game zerg scouting has a much more subtle effect, often forcing less early game gambits and making games go longer, zergs often have a bit more scouting in ZvP just because of how immobile canons are for instance so it doesn't effect ZvP, and ZvZ the overlords might as well teleport to your opponents base. I don't think it's hypocritical for them to say that they're being cautious about one set of changes while "rushing" into a different set of changes, just because of the circumstances surrounding them, even based on the numbers, TvP problems seem more significant because we've seen a lot of TvP, but the reason we've seen a lot of TvP is because there are still terrans alive in the GSL. | ||
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iAmJeffReY
United States4262 Posts
So...like how 1 chrono gets 2 probes out so fast...now 1 chrono will get an OB out almost instantly... This is such a sad list of changes as a terran player. If you DON'T open up early hellions, it's almost impossible to hinder/stop creep as is. | ||
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TheSwamp
United States1497 Posts
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FLuE
United States1012 Posts
The OL Speed is helpful as well. I don't see this as anything that changes the game drastically, and people are always saying they want changes that cater more toward skill than just nerf/buff. To me the OL speed is helpful, but to the average player that doesn't know how to position OLs, where to Postion, doesn't check the mini-map constantly, the change is average at best. As far as the queens go, we are talking about something that requires a lot of multi tasking to spread the creep with that many tumors. It isn't some mindless thing to do. They didn't just make the queen stronger which very well could have been their answer. They are basically saying we'll give you a tools to help you stop an all in(scouting, creep) but you still have to respond and micro correctly. These are the changes I like to see in the game. Because you need skill to be able to use them to their full potential, not just "great my roaches shoot further now I'll make 100 and A MOVE!" Also, as far as the creep spread goes there is nothing more frustrating than spreading creep all game just to watch it disapear from a few helions and scans. I think the amount of effort it takes to shut down creep spread, something vital to zerg, is just way to easy. The tumors die so fast it isn't a challenge killing them off. A few more tumors on the map is fine. These are good changes, and I think even if you disagree with the changes you should agree with the way blizzard is looking at the game and implementing changes at this time. | ||
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Holytornados
United States1022 Posts
On May 03 2012 11:20 KawaiiRice wrote: are you serious? I go rax cc every single game LOL the problem is theres literally NO ambiguity in what terran is doing and zerg can actually get ahead just by scouting and hitting sddddddddd 10 more times depending on what they scout or making lings and a bane nest if they see marauder hellion/other pressure builds. which you already could do before, but with blizzard's idiot assitance everyone will now be able to do it I'm on Kawaii's side. If a zerg easily scouts Terran just macroing, they will get insanely ahead on drones. Easily being the word in effect. | ||
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kiklion
99 Posts
The 50 energy I can see being too powerful. If they wanted to increase creep spread early, they can allow hatcheries to spawn a single creep tumor just as current creep tumors can. Make it require spawning pool so that zerg won't have 3 minutes of spreading creep with no army on the map. ~edit After testing it, I still feel terran can easily stop the overlord, but it does allow the first overlord to view the base without getting killed. Before, the overlord was so slow that even if you got into the base before the barracks was done, they could have a marine out and kill it before it got to a safe place. Assuming you send the ovi in the right direct at first it should be safe. With the 50 energy, doing an 11 overpool gets you pretty insane creep spread at first. First queen injects and creeps, expand get second queen second queen injects, creeps first queen spits out third creep waiting for hatch at natural. That first tumor from the second queen can now cover the side of your base and spread down to below the natural joining up with the tumors from the first queen. I feel the overlord speed will have a great effect in PvZ than ZvT beyond the first 2-3 minutes. It will be harder to stop an ovi from seeing stargate vs robo vs DT after a FFE. | ||
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TheSwamp
United States1497 Posts
On May 03 2012 11:25 FLuE wrote: Think the changes are great. I've said for a long time now I think queens should start with 50 energy. The OL Speed is helpful as well. I don't see this as anything that changes the game drastically, and people are always saying they want changes that cater more toward skill than just nerf/buff. To me the OL speed is helpful, but to the average player that doesn't know how to position OLs, where to Postion, doesn't check the mini-map constantly, the change is average at best. As far as the queens go, we are talking about something that requires a lot of multi tasking to spread the creep with that many tumors. It isn't some mindless thing to do. They didn't just make the queen stronger which very well could have been their answer. They are basically saying we'll give you a tools to help you stop an all in(scouting, creep) but you still have to respond and micro correctly. These are the changes I like to see in the game. Because you need skill to be able to use them to their full potential, not just "great my roaches shoot further now I'll make 100 and A MOVE!" Also, as far as the creep spread goes there is nothing more frustrating than spreading creep all game just to watch it disapear from a few helions and scans. I think the amount of effort it takes to shut down creep spread, something vital to zerg, is just way to easy. The tumors die so fast it isn't a challenge killing them off. A few more tumors on the map is fine. These are good changes, and I think even if you disagree with the changes you should agree with the way blizzard is looking at the game and implementing changes at this time. When a terran uses a scan they are sacrificing a MULE. I think it's much worse when toss just moves along the edges of my creep with an obs. They aren't sacrificing anything except maybe a glimpse of their army. I really don't think it's that difficult to spread creep early against terran. If you make like 4 roaches, you completely nullify 4-6 hellions and can even take a quick third. | ||
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