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Canada16217 Posts
If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D
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On May 01 2012 17:13 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 17:12 HellionDrop wrote:On May 01 2012 17:06 Zooper31 wrote:On May 01 2012 16:52 poorcloud wrote:On May 01 2012 16:43 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 01 2012 16:17 RaiKageRyu wrote:On May 01 2012 16:08 Angra wrote:On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote:
But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling. No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game. If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling. If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other. Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2. Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game. You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too. I'm not sure about the skills of flash since i didn't really follow BW. But MVP has better multitask than Flash? Honest question here. MVP was a low rated scrub compared to Flash. MVP never saw play time on TV and he mostly lost his matches. MVP to Flash is what your grandpa is to MVP at playing SC2. my grandpa is way worse than me at sc2, and you didn't address to his question at all I editted my original post the second I wrote it to include actual info. But yes I did answer his question of asking who was better. To can't even begin to comprehend to imagine a serious question of asking who is better. Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 17:13 naux wrote:On May 01 2012 17:06 Zooper31 wrote:On May 01 2012 16:52 poorcloud wrote:On May 01 2012 16:43 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 01 2012 16:17 RaiKageRyu wrote:On May 01 2012 16:08 Angra wrote:On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote:
But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling. No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game. If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling. If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other. Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2. Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game. You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too. I'm not sure about the skills of flash since i didn't really follow BW. But MVP has better multitask than Flash? Honest question here. MVP was a low rated scrub compared to Flash. MVP never saw play time on TV and he mostly lost his matches. MVP to Flash is what your grandpa is to MVP at playing SC2. i dont think u know what you are talking about. MVP was starting out then switch games when he was breaking out understand why he didnt get any TV time? and mostly lost his matches? how can he lose matches if he didnt get any play time on tv? realize most of these posters are jumping on SC:BW players bandwagon a little bit to early Starting to break out? Granted he only played for about 2 years before making the switch, he lost 7/9 of his last matches. You could say he was in a slump when he quit and was getting worse.
i could honestly say you never watched any MVPs' games in BW and just making accusations on just stats alone since thats your only argument. i am not saying MVP > Flash in bw since we are all hearing the hype from all the BW/SC2 pros and also BW posters who were here long ago but i am saying, i never understood somebody insulting another professional player by calling them a scrub when a poster isnt even close in skill is a joke
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On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote:
If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D
In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery.
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On May 01 2012 16:52 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 16:43 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 01 2012 16:17 RaiKageRyu wrote:On May 01 2012 16:08 Angra wrote:On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote:
But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling. No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game. If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling. If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other. Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2. Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game. You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too. I'm not sure about the skills of flash since i didn't really follow BW. But MVP has better multitask than Flash? Honest question here.
The game which MVP won was when MVP dictated the play so it became a game of mechanics rather than strategy.
Same as the most recent Flash vs Fantasy game, when Flash lost to Fantasy after Fantasy started doing tonnes of drop harass even if it meant lower econ in the beginning, because he knew that he could keep Flash occupied and Fantasy could expand much faster and get all his workers mining optimally at the same time. While Flash would be forgetting to build workers, or being slightly off timing with his tech and expansions.
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On May 01 2012 18:08 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote:
If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery.
any source?
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On May 01 2012 18:25 jspark703 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 18:08 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote:
If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery. any source?
- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did'
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330806
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On May 01 2012 16:43 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 16:17 RaiKageRyu wrote:On May 01 2012 16:08 Angra wrote:On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote:
But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling. No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game. If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling. If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other. Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2. Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game. You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too.
best players in bw have about 70% win rate. And judging by an earlier poster, broodwar winners are just as "random" as sc2. There are just a few exceptional cases that arises every few years
Also why wouldn't it make sense for MVP to try harder now than before? people changes all the time. Plenty of people have turn their business from mediocre to multi-million corporation half way through their lives (or most of the case other way around). Personally I went from a straight C student to straight A from 8th to 9th grade, so I just don't see these sorts of arguments have much ground
imo if MVP didn't strain his wrists and had forced to go mech instead, he could've continue his dominating streak. His bio controls is just so much better
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On May 01 2012 18:26 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 18:25 jspark703 wrote:On May 01 2012 18:08 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote:
If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery. any source? Show nested quote +- Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did' http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330806
In other words, Marines and Siege to Masters?
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On May 01 2012 16:17 RaiKageRyu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 16:08 Angra wrote:On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote:
But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling. No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game. If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling.
What how well Flash is going to do will tell us depends on our frame of reference. Do we:
A) Have more faith in Flash's skills as a RTS-gamer than in SC2 not being volatile?
B) Have more faith in SC2 not being volatile than Flash's skills as a RTS-gamer?
All who have followed BW to some extent are going to say A, whilst it seems those who have exclusively followed SC2 are going to say B.
With how little anyone has managed to dominate in SC2 so far and Flash's skills BW and workethic, I'm personally inclined to lean towards A.
Before you are going to settle a discussion you are going to have to agree on a frame of reference, which I really doubt that you guys are going to be able to.
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On May 01 2012 18:37 iky43210 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 16:43 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 01 2012 16:17 RaiKageRyu wrote:On May 01 2012 16:08 Angra wrote:On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote:
But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling. No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game. If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling. If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other. Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2. Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game. You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too. best players in bw have about 70% win rate. And judging by an earlier poster, broodwar winners are just as "random" as sc2. There are just a few exceptional cases that arises every few years Also why wouldn't it make sense for MVP to try harder now than before? people changes all the time. Plenty of people have turn their business from mediocre to multi-million corporation half way through their lives (or most of the case other way around). Personally I went from a straight C student to straight A from 8th to 9th grade, so I just don't see these sorts of arguments have much ground imo if MVP didn't strain his wrists and had forced to go mech instead, he could've continue his dominating streak. His bio controls is just so much better
BW players have such low win-rates because of other factors, MVP was winning lots of games from the time he transitioned, but for BW players its an uphill struggle against the best. You also don't have the concept of "sniper" players in teamleague, because teams don't have enough money to afford a salary for those kinds of players. Sniper players will often be sent in favor of top players, because it makes that much of a difference. So for example, Bisu only losing 2 games in PL and getting 3 All-Kills in a row is a much bigger feat considering the fact that he had to face relentless amounts of snipers, even facing 7 5pools in a row. You also will find that SC2 only players will have much lower avg win-rates than those that transitioned from an elite level, like Leenock who was "only" an A+ level Iccup player..
Also Flash lost a lot of easy games in the beginning when he started out, even after he won an OSL at the youngest age, commentators and analysts still thought he had 10% chance of being a good player compared Mind which they thought was a 90% likelihood. Flash was considered a no-skill cheeser when he started out, and often lost dumb games in proleague. I remember a post about the KTCoach or someone exclaiming that Flash's play reeked of Boxer-esque cheese, it took about a year before he started showing his uber-turtly safe solid style. Obviously he is not going to go through the exact same learning path that he did in BW.
If we consider peak moments, Flash had an much higher win rate something like 85%, even Jaedong had a 90% win-rate in ZvZ at one stage.
Flash strained his wrists too and won an OSL with only a couple hours of practise a day before he had to under-go surgery. He was even on painkiller injections during the OSL finals and still won 3:0 convincingly without using Science Vessels (basically a smurf).
Its silly to assume that MVP wasn't trying as hard as he could. Your examples don't make any sense because they are instances of mediocre skill level. Getting an A in 8th grade is nothing like winning a courage tournament. Winning a courage tournament is like being the best maths student in high-school when you are 5 years younger than the top year level, not getting A's in your class rofl. That already takes ridiculous amounts of effort, that if you aren't already trying your best, you simply won't get anywhere near close, when you consider everyone else is trying there utmost best. In school only a few students are actually trying their hardest, even in society and business, its like that.
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On May 01 2012 19:30 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 18:37 iky43210 wrote:On May 01 2012 16:43 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 01 2012 16:17 RaiKageRyu wrote:On May 01 2012 16:08 Angra wrote:On April 30 2012 12:24 Zrana wrote:
But what about THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM guys???
man i hope he does mediocre at best just to prove that thread wrong If he does mediocre at best then I'm gonna be really sad for the future of SC2 because it just shows that there's a very low skill ceiling. No, that just means he can't adapt into a new game. If he does well immediately on the other hand... that will prove SC2 has a lower skill ceiling. If it makes any more sense, its not that Flash does badly, its the fact that no one can end up dominating. Which means that no matter how hard you practise you are just gonna be trading wins with each other. Its kinda like the top levels of poker where players are so good that if it wasn't for billionaires feeding them, money would just be going around in a circle. The differences only accumulate over a very long period of time. Its not like you get a Poker player who just crushes every tournament like in BW. The best poker players will sign up for 7 tournaments, and might make 1 final table. A similar thing might end up happening in SC2. Flash in his peak only slept 3 hours a day, and his achievements are due to his strategic playstyle as his multitask is not as good as a lot of other players. Now you could imagine compared to MVP who practised a lot less and has better multitask than Flash, in a game where gamesense and timing are much more rewarded (Flash's defining factor in his play), can only beat MVP 55% of the time, instead of 80% like in BW a lot has to be said about the game. You can't say MVP tries harder in SC2 now, that doesn't make any sense either, I'm sure he tried his hardest in BW too. best players in bw have about 70% win rate. And judging by an earlier poster, broodwar winners are just as "random" as sc2. There are just a few exceptional cases that arises every few years Also why wouldn't it make sense for MVP to try harder now than before? people changes all the time. Plenty of people have turn their business from mediocre to multi-million corporation half way through their lives (or most of the case other way around). Personally I went from a straight C student to straight A from 8th to 9th grade, so I just don't see these sorts of arguments have much ground imo if MVP didn't strain his wrists and had forced to go mech instead, he could've continue his dominating streak. His bio controls is just so much better Its silly to assume that MVP wasn't trying as hard as he could. Your examples don't make any sense because they are instances of mediocre skill level. Getting an A in 8th grade is nothing like winning a courage tournament. Winning a courage tournament is like being the best maths student in high-school when you are 5 years younger than the top year level, not getting A's in your class rofl. That already takes ridiculous amounts of effort, that if you aren't already trying your best, you simply won't get anywhere near close, when you consider everyone else is trying there utmost best. In school only a few students are actually trying their hardest, even in society and business, its like that.
Are you seriously suggesting that people can't get much better at a later time? And how would you know how hard MVP was trying back then compare to now?
you are taking the examples too literal, and you are completely missing the point. The point is that people improves at different rates, and at different times. Even within every individuals have different results depend on many variables such as environments, time, motivation, etc.
Rating and comparing success of someone now based on his past performance is pretty ridiculous (not to say it probably falls under multiple categories of logical fallacies).
I didn't bother replying to the few paragraphs. Its really just irrelevant rambling
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On May 01 2012 19:09 Supah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 18:26 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 01 2012 18:25 jspark703 wrote:On May 01 2012 18:08 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote:
If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery. any source? - Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did' http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330806 In other words, Marines and Siege to Masters?
rehabilititation does not mean he only used 1 arm...it's the opposite. you use the arm to rehabilitate..
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On May 01 2012 19:09 Supah wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2012 18:26 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 01 2012 18:25 jspark703 wrote:On May 01 2012 18:08 sluggaslamoo wrote:On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote:
If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D In the coach's interview, apparently Flash got to masters without knowing what the units did, and he was playing in hospital with one arm because of his surgery. any source? - Ji-hoon 'During his (Flash's) rehabilitation, he got to Masters (in SC2) without even knowing what the new units did' http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=330806 In other words, Marines and Siege to Masters?
Pretty much, yea, no surprise to me when you consider that he played years and years of broodwar all the time marine/tank
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I for one welcome out new robot masters!
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I keep seeing the title in the left tab thinking i am gonna get to see sc2 art by Flash... saddened is my day
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After all the hype the guy can basically only dissapoint. I guess he'll be good and heart of the swarm might reset his strategic setback but it will be tough.
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Exciting time for SC2. Hope he does well. It would be extremely disappointing if he doesn't see success within a reasonable time frame (like, a year or so imo), not to mention bad for SC2 in Korea.
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i hope he gets got at translating, thought he was a bw pro, hm..
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On May 01 2012 17:19 NovemberstOrm wrote:
If any one of the current bw pros is too raise the skill level for Starcraft 2 it will be Flash, learning the basic mechanics,units,unit structures etc should get him to masters easily, once he learns the builds he should become top level and once the builds become refined well it'll be pretty nuts but the only way he's going to become dominate at Starcraft 2 is if he practices which he supposedly is doing if he isn't tired out from his bw career and actually switches to full time Starcraft 2 it'll be exciting :D
He was in masters before he really knew the basics, while he was waiting for his wrists to heal he got there.
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''Flash reached Masters without knowing what the units did, while playing with one hand''
I love how people are saying that seriously now. XD What a legend he is.
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EPT
