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On May 02 2012 05:44 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:35 Rumpus wrote:On May 02 2012 05:28 Big J wrote:On May 02 2012 05:26 Rumpus wrote:On May 02 2012 05:00 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 01 2012 22:36 Bellazuk wrote:
they truly need a slight buff. No, they need more better players. DRG and Stephano take almost every tournament there is anyway. If you buff zerg even more (I say it is slightly imbalanced against terran, looking at statistics which show a 4 to 6% win rate advantage for zerg in every region in ZvT), DRG and Stephano will take every tournament. Also, adding to the fact that zerg race is again a very easy to control race where micro is almost not present, I believe that zerg needs no buff, and even should be T3 nerfed. I don't know about anyone else but the last thing I want for Zerg is a buff, and I play Zerg. But what I would enjoy is the race to be fixed so that is ACTUALLY ENJOYABLE TO PLAY! Half the units are either boring, useless, or both. Then don't play it if you don't like it. If everyone played this game based purely off interesting mechanics and complete race design, Protoss and Zerg would be removed from the game. Explain, in which way is Zerg incomplete? In which way is Zerg not interesting? If you want queue mechanic with a human faction that is split in infantry/vehicles/air(/ships) you can basically play any strategy game that has ever been developed. If you want something unique, Zerg and since the introduction of Warp Gates Protoss are something for you.
First off look at the units and tech tree. If you think the race is okay, examine the Hydralisk, Roach, Corrupter, Ultralisk, and how many units we have compared to the other races. These units are all dull, or useless, with unimaginative design, terrible utility and extreme "situationalism." The flavor of the race, the Zerg theme of "the swarm," has been taken away entirely. Hell, not only is the Queen the source of a boring, mundane game-play chore, but is directly counter intuitive to that "swarm" style. Also, flexibility in composition and strategy is virtually nonexistent.
Warp Gates make sense for Protoss but it ruined that powerful "high cost, low count" army mystique. Oh and their tech trees are a mess too. Considering going down one of them (Stargate) is almost always a poor choice.
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On May 02 2012 10:46 Rumpus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:44 Big J wrote:On May 02 2012 05:35 Rumpus wrote:On May 02 2012 05:28 Big J wrote:On May 02 2012 05:26 Rumpus wrote:On May 02 2012 05:00 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 01 2012 22:36 Bellazuk wrote:
they truly need a slight buff. No, they need more better players. DRG and Stephano take almost every tournament there is anyway. If you buff zerg even more (I say it is slightly imbalanced against terran, looking at statistics which show a 4 to 6% win rate advantage for zerg in every region in ZvT), DRG and Stephano will take every tournament. Also, adding to the fact that zerg race is again a very easy to control race where micro is almost not present, I believe that zerg needs no buff, and even should be T3 nerfed. I don't know about anyone else but the last thing I want for Zerg is a buff, and I play Zerg. But what I would enjoy is the race to be fixed so that is ACTUALLY ENJOYABLE TO PLAY! Half the units are either boring, useless, or both. Then don't play it if you don't like it. If everyone played this game based purely off interesting mechanics and complete race design, Protoss and Zerg would be removed from the game. Explain, in which way is Zerg incomplete? In which way is Zerg not interesting? If you want queue mechanic with a human faction that is split in infantry/vehicles/air(/ships) you can basically play any strategy game that has ever been developed. If you want something unique, Zerg and since the introduction of Warp Gates Protoss are something for you. First off look at the units and tech tree. If you think the race is okay, examine the Hydralisk, Roach, Corrupter, Ultralisk, and how many units we have compared to the other races. These units are all dull, or useless, with unimaginative design, terrible utility and extreme "situationalism." The flavor of the race, the Zerg theme of "the swarm," has been taken away entirely. Hell, not only is the Queen the source of a boring, mundane game-play chore, but is directly counter intuitive to that "swarm" style. Also, flexibility in composition and strategy is virtually nonexistent. Warp Gates make sense for Protoss but it ruined that powerful "high cost, low count" army mystique. Oh and their tech trees are a mess too. Considering going down one of them (Stargate) is almost always a poor choice.
Oh yeah considering that stargate opener after FFE is pretty good way to mess with stephanos roach style so yeah i think i will just listen to MC and so should you before posting false statements 
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I think the blizz team has done a great job balancing. I almost want to add something sarcastic like "if all you care about is winrates", but honestly, they've done a decent, perhaps even good, job keeping gameplay interesting. There are some glaring problems though that I can't believe weren't addressed. I was having trouble late game pvt like every other Terran, so I started switching to sky mech and the proxy rax cheese (thanks to tl for both both builds). Unfortunately, these builds are bound to be figured out sooner or later. The fact is there is no really good option late game pvt. The matchup is balanced, I won't argue that, but it's balanced in a poor way, with t having too much advantage early and too weak late game.
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As a high master T:
there is no current unit composition that is unbeatable from Z/P late game if T can prepare and set up for the battle. A lot of terran i speak to have no experience in the late game so they QQ, but here's the thing, these are the same terrans that consider the end of their 10 min medivac aggression the "late game." Cannot spend resources on 3-4 bases effectively, never make enough barracks and just are overall really bad and win with gimmicky bio timing pushes that are difficult to deal with in sheer truth (like you can't have that much stuff at 10 min with protoss, have to turtle).
Currently mech is not playable at a high level or even my level (i have to be significantly better than P to pull it off consistently).. it is not a reliable macro style factory units take so long to build and only really do well in large numbers. This, in combination with the fact that protoss can warp in X amount of gateway units in 4 seconds post battle, means that protoss always wins fights that are "even" because they get free kills on your newly made forces/retreating forces with charge zealot and map control after EVERY engagement. It's really frustrating actually because mech does really good in the early game (hellion production can really get out of control and force opponent into his base), but it just struggles in terms of 1. Remaxing 2. Dealing with counter attacks without almost "maphack-like" game sense 3. Rapidly expanding opponents and no way to punish it, this is especially true in the TvP matchups.
I played against a 1k pt protoss on entomb valley, he 3g robo me, i banshee him. ends up about even and we both take naturals, he goes immediately blink (after scouting i had techlab + research going on at factory with warp prism pressure) and takes new nexus across on other side of the map, i scout this with hellions and cannot put any pressure on it because of 200 apm blink stalkers patrolling the shit out of the map. banshees and hellions as a harassment do not work because of 2 photon cannons in mineral line + the token "OH shit 5 blue flame hellions" Stalker warpin. next, he takes another expo on another far away location. This says to me as a terran player: you have 3 bases, i'm making a 4th as youre finishing your 3rd, are you going to punish me? Yes i answer, and i bring my tanks/hellions/thors/everything across the map to attack. As this happens, he cancels the 4th nexus and counter attacks my 3rd base with blink stalkers and expos again in a different corner of the map. Eventually, he beats me and our armies NEVER FOUGHT. He just attacked my economy whenever i tried to attack his and the mobility of his army just made mech seem really bad. I was really confident in my entombed mech build, but after this game haven't done it once.
EDIT: This is not intended as QQ, i just wanted to give my experience for mech play in the MU. Terran tier 2-3 are not as bad as everyone claims they are, but their opportunity cost (supply that could have been stupidly upgraded marines with medivac is wayyyyy too high) marines, even against their counters do better than mech sometimes. lol. Marine good unit.
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Just off the top of my head, Fruitdealer, Nestea and DRG have all complained about imbalance in Zerg matchups.
You shouldn't make such sweeping generalizations.
Pros always says imba in interviews for fun, but they dont meant it. You cited DRG, hes the 1st one to always blame himself when he lose and says he will train harder and win for his fans. To say such a thing you need a context.
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On May 02 2012 12:19 c0sm0naut wrote:
I played against a 1k pt protoss on entomb valley, he 3g robo me, i banshee him. ends up about even and we both take naturals, he goes immediately blink (after scouting i had techlab + research going on at factory with warp prism pressure) and takes new nexus across on other side of the map, i scout this with hellions and cannot put any pressure on it because of 200 apm blink stalkers patrolling the shit out of the map. banshees and hellions as a harassment do not work because of 2 photon cannons in mineral line + the token "OH shit 5 blue flame hellions" Stalker warpin. next, he takes another expo on another far away location. This says to me as a terran player: you have 3 bases, i'm making a 4th as youre finishing your 3rd, are you going to punish me? Yes i answer, and i bring my tanks/hellions/thors/everything across the map to attack. As this happens, he cancels the 4th nexus and counter attacks my 3rd base with blink stalkers and expos again in a different corner of the map. Eventually, he beats me and our armies NEVER FOUGHT. He just attacked my economy whenever i tried to attack his and the mobility of his army just made mech seem really bad. I was really confident in my entombed mech build, but after this game haven't done it once.
Sounds like a really interesting game. I'd love to see replay...
This sounds a lot like playing vs mutas. Stalkers are actually a pretty bad unit in a lot of ways. Cost, DPS, upgrades and weak vs emp. Could you have left a smallish force at home and a stronger force to punish his expansions? I'm trying to picture how many stalkers you'd need to kill an upgraded thor in a mineral line, especially if it's a planetary and blinking on top of the thor isn't really an option. I know they cost more, but pound for pound unsieged tanks are pretty good vs stalkers too. Mech in mineral line with 16 scv's ready to repair should be super good vs blink stalker.
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On May 02 2012 13:36 Kharnage wrote:
Sounds like a really interesting game. I'd love to see replay...
This sounds a lot like playing vs mutas. Stalkers are actually a pretty bad unit in a lot of ways. Cost, DPS, upgrades and weak vs emp. Could you have left a smallish force at home and a stronger force to punish his expansions? I'm trying to picture how many stalkers you'd need to kill an upgraded thor in a mineral line, especially if it's a planetary and blinking on top of the thor isn't really an option. I know they cost more, but pound for pound unsieged tanks are pretty good vs stalkers too. Mech in mineral line with 16 scv's ready to repair should be super good vs blink stalker.
Alas, the replay is lost in the void of "i played a crap ton more games" and it was phased out of my unsaved folder ^.^ You're right that just like mutas, stalkers are mobile and... well... shitty. I think that leaving some units behind is always an option and probably the correct thing to do but as mech I am always so paranoid to split off my army because unlike MM it does not function well in small numbers and can't retreat 100% of the time like stim units. It's not that it was a LOT of stalkers (well actually i don't know. i just felt lost that game, like i could not tell how much of his total army the stalkers were. with +3 attacks you'd be surprised how good godly blink micro can be vs tanks/thors. I think that eventually mech will be viable and currently is, it's just insanely hard and requires a lot more apm interestingly enough. (not like battle apm, furiously microing bio and kiting, but scouting the map constantly, responding to harassment, managing factories/starports, managing mass PF expos, adding geysers. it adds up)
the real key to figuring out mech is : at what timing can i push out and how much army should i/ can i safely leave behind and not lose the "oomph" of my attack that lets me take on multiple protoss armies? what is the order of buildings / upgrades you should get? From personal experience i think that more factories/command centers fucking everywhere are toooootally better to get than early armory upgrades cause you basically need all of that gas for tank / thor spam and your PF's
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What goody used to do was just sit on 3-4 bases while Protoss suicided his army 5 times in a row into his tank line and then he pushed with 30 tanks for a crushing victory.
I don't think mech is viable against thinking opponents outside of midgame timing pushes.
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On May 02 2012 14:16 c0sm0naut wrote:
the real key to figuring out mech is : at what timing can i push out and how much army should i/ can i safely leave behind and not lose the "oomph" of my attack that lets me take on multiple protoss armies? what is the order of buildings / upgrades you should get? From personal experience i think that more factories/command centers fucking everywhere are toooootally better to get than early armory upgrades cause you basically need all of that gas for tank / thor spam and your PF's
I guess the other part of that equation is 'how much damage do i need to do before i fall back'. Every push should have an objective to get you slightly more ahead, not 'win right now'.
A lot of the time people lose when they push, do a lot of dmaage, then over extend and lose their entire army. That doesn't work with mech.
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On May 02 2012 10:46 Rumpus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 05:44 Big J wrote:On May 02 2012 05:35 Rumpus wrote:On May 02 2012 05:28 Big J wrote:On May 02 2012 05:26 Rumpus wrote:On May 02 2012 05:00 sieksdekciw wrote:On May 01 2012 22:36 Bellazuk wrote:
they truly need a slight buff. No, they need more better players. DRG and Stephano take almost every tournament there is anyway. If you buff zerg even more (I say it is slightly imbalanced against terran, looking at statistics which show a 4 to 6% win rate advantage for zerg in every region in ZvT), DRG and Stephano will take every tournament. Also, adding to the fact that zerg race is again a very easy to control race where micro is almost not present, I believe that zerg needs no buff, and even should be T3 nerfed. I don't know about anyone else but the last thing I want for Zerg is a buff, and I play Zerg. But what I would enjoy is the race to be fixed so that is ACTUALLY ENJOYABLE TO PLAY! Half the units are either boring, useless, or both. Then don't play it if you don't like it. If everyone played this game based purely off interesting mechanics and complete race design, Protoss and Zerg would be removed from the game. Explain, in which way is Zerg incomplete? In which way is Zerg not interesting? If you want queue mechanic with a human faction that is split in infantry/vehicles/air(/ships) you can basically play any strategy game that has ever been developed. If you want something unique, Zerg and since the introduction of Warp Gates Protoss are something for you. First off look at the units and tech tree. If you think the race is okay, examine the Hydralisk, Roach, Corrupter, Ultralisk, and how many units we have compared to the other races. These units are all dull, or useless, with unimaginative design, terrible utility and extreme "situationalism." The flavor of the race, the Zerg theme of "the swarm," has been taken away entirely. Hell, not only is the Queen the source of a boring, mundane game-play chore, but is directly counter intuitive to that "swarm" style. Also, flexibility in composition and strategy is virtually nonexistent. Warp Gates make sense for Protoss but it ruined that powerful "high cost, low count" army mystique. Oh and their tech trees are a mess too. Considering going down one of them (Stargate) is almost always a poor choice.
Hydralisks are weak, but this has nothing to do with any form of "incomplete design", they are simply not playable as a straight up combat unit right now.
Corruptors are boring, I agree, but they are needed.
Ultralisks... I don't know, I think they are again weak for their costs and tech, but there are powerful Ultralisk strategies out there, and combined with infestors (or queens) they are not a boring unit at all.
Roaches, they are absolutly not boring. Some strategies with them - like 12min max - are boring, but the way they are used in ZvZ as tank for Hydralisks and Infestors, the way they get included against hellions, the way you can use them as defense breaking unit for a roach/ling rush, that's all not boring, that's usage of an interesting concept unit (high HP, early ground superiority unit).
I'm totally with you, that the Zerg design and balancing could get refined (more microable stronger hydras, weaker roaches when on their own, so they require hydras for damage, but roach/hydra(/corruptor/infestor) isn't an autolose against standard compositions), but so could Terran Mech and Air (and bio, when you look at the assymetric winrates of it), so could Protoss Air and Warp Gates (when you look at how allinish warp gate play is).
There is absolutly nothing, that makes Zerg (or Protoss) more "incomplete" than Terran.
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On May 02 2012 12:19 c0sm0naut wrote:
This says to me as a terran player: you have 3 bases, i'm making a 4th as youre finishing your 3rd, are you going to punish me? Yes i answer, and i bring my tanks/hellions/thors/everything across the map to attack. As this happens, he cancels the 4th nexus and counter attacks my 3rd base with blink stalkers and expos again in a different corner of the map. Eventually, he beats me and our armies NEVER FOUGHT. He just attacked my economy whenever i tried to attack his and the mobility of his army just made mech seem really bad. I was really confident in my entombed mech build, but after this game haven't done it once.
And this is why i always say that people who tried mech only once or twice often dont have a proper advice,because they try to play it with an offensive bio mindset. Why would you punish his expo by attacking him , considering your army is insanely slow . . and insanely strong in defense? Why can't you just expo yourself AND add macro orbitals in the meantime?
Playing mech in TvP, as i said,requires totally different mindset.
The way you're describing your mech game just makes me saying that you played as he wanted you to play. He's avoiding fights with mass blink stalkers, then why do you try to push? and even if you decide to push, why do you push towards an expo he can just sac instead of his main (forcing him to choose between defending his main,forcing a fight with his inferior army, or harassing and loosing all his tech and production ...)? And what wouldn't you keep a few units at home while pushing? If he's attacking with a maxed blink army, a PF with 5-10 tanks, a full energy raven and some hellions can deal an huge amount of damage and buys you enough time to be ahead in a baserace...
It's not about mech but about not doing what your opponent want you to do, and this is what you apparently did in this game . . . But you blame mech. Like most players do.
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I don't think anyone's posted this yet. The tournament winrates of April 2012.
+ Show Spoiler +
Korean winrates posted below.
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On May 02 2012 21:39 SarcasmMonster wrote:I don't think anyone's posted this yet. The tournament winrates of April 2012. + Show Spoiler +
And the korean ones:
+ Show Spoiler +
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I should have posted both. Remember to look at sample sizes before drawing conclusions.
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On May 02 2012 21:58 SarcasmMonster wrote:I should have posted both. Remember to look at sample sizes before drawing conclusions.
Also keep in mind that the international ones include completely open online tourneys such as playhem dailies, unless I am mistaken.
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On May 02 2012 22:00 iglocska wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 21:58 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 02 2012 21:56 iglocska wrote:On May 02 2012 21:39 SarcasmMonster wrote:I don't think anyone's posted this yet. The tournament winrates of April 2012. + Show Spoiler + And the korean ones: + Show Spoiler + I should have posted both. Remember to look at sample sizes before drawing conclusions. Also keep in mind that the international ones include completely open online tourneys such as playhem dailies, unless I am mistaken.
The author of the graphs grabs the stats from TLPD, so all the tournaments listed here that occurred in April. I don't see playhem dailies specifically, but many smaller tourneys are included.
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Lyyna's got it right. People are stuck in a bio mindset. Bio units are throwaways, mech/air is more like playing the P deathball. You want to make expensive upgraded units, and hold onto them until you're maxed.
Early and mid-game, contain P with threat of hellion run-bys. Tech up to 3/3 and an ultimate unit composition of siege tanks, with a wall of thors in front, and banshee support. I'm not sure P can do anything against this. If you don't feel safe taking your 3rd, then maybe get a planetary or two.
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On May 02 2012 22:18 jdsowa wrote:
Lyyna's got it right. People are stuck in a bio mindset. Bio units are throwaways, mech/air is more like playing the P deathball. You want to make expensive upgraded units, and hold onto them until you're maxed.
Early and mid-game, contain P with threat of hellion run-bys. Tech up to 3/3 and an ultimate unit composition of siege tanks, with a wall of thors in front, and banshee support. I'm not sure P can do anything against this. If you don't feel safe taking your 3rd, then maybe get a planetary or two.
hellion run bys will only work for so long.. eventually things will get out of control unless you stop it
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On May 02 2012 22:44 dhe95 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 22:18 jdsowa wrote:
Lyyna's got it right. People are stuck in a bio mindset. Bio units are throwaways, mech/air is more like playing the P deathball. You want to make expensive upgraded units, and hold onto them until you're maxed.
Early and mid-game, contain P with threat of hellion run-bys. Tech up to 3/3 and an ultimate unit composition of siege tanks, with a wall of thors in front, and banshee support. I'm not sure P can do anything against this. If you don't feel safe taking your 3rd, then maybe get a planetary or two. hellion run bys will only work for so long.. eventually things will get out of control unless you stop it
Hellions run bys wasn't my point. I was just saying that you shouldn't play like the protoss play and then dare to blame mech for your lock of "smart-ness"
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y02dO.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/898Wwh.png)
