EPTTalking Balance with David Kim - Page 66
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Bellazuk
Canada146 Posts
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 02 2012 00:52 vthree wrote: Did Protoss players actually figure out pvt or pvz? Or did the maps get bigger so that early and mid game timings/ drops were less effective so protoss can take a faster third without be punished and thus moving the game to a mid/ late game phase where they have always been strong due to army efficiency per supply and warp gates. the first one. Protoss players were actually struggling even on bigger maps like Terminus and TDA to get up fast thirds against Zerg, and they are actually doing quite OK on maps with medium rush distances like Antiga or Cloud Kingdom right now. | ||
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freetgy
1720 Posts
On May 02 2012 00:52 vthree wrote: Did Protoss players actually figure out pvt or pvz? Or did the maps get bigger so that early and mid game timings/ drops were less effective so protoss can take a faster third without be punished and thus moving the game to a mid/ late game phase where they have always been strong due to army efficiency per supply and warp gates. too far away bases always benefit zerg, they are the most mobile race. | ||
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Jojo131
Brazil1631 Posts
On May 01 2012 22:36 Bellazuk wrote: The fact is, I don't think david kim realize some people play this game for living and even slight imbalance for them would make a huge difference overall. There's a reason why u don't see zerg players dominating the scene and there's a reason why code s zerg players will be even lower next season. Good people , figured out how to deal vs Zerg players. Yeah some people may shine as Zerg and win touneys, thats perfect but it shouldnt representent the majority. With the incomming changes in HOTS I think zerg will be okay but for now at the hightest level of play, they truly need a slight buff. But there are also normal, casual players (ie. not pros, their primary target market) who also want to play this game. I dont like it either, but it's not unreasonable for Blizzard to consider their main source of income. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 01 2012 20:13 Yoduh wrote: typical SC2 strategy thread: "hey guys, I play X race and have trouble with Y race against Z unit, what do i do?" community responds "scout better and/or play better, don't let them mass up that unit and counter it". typical SC2 balance thread: "hey guys, I play T race and have trouble with P race against HT unit, what do i do?" community responds "OMG P IS SO OVERPOWERED, T NEEDS BUFFS, DAVID KIM IS INCOMPETENT, STATISTICS ARE A LIE!!!" It is so true. The people in the strategy threads are really cutting their teeth on the hard part of SC2, which is figuring out what you are doing wrong. I think I lot of people just play until they stop going up on the ladder and then assume the reason they are not winning any more is because of some sort of imbalance. Never mind that on the way to diamond/masters they developed some really bad habits that are keeping them down, clearly it is the other races fault they are losing. | ||
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Toastie
Netherlands104 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On May 01 2012 22:36 Bellazuk wrote: The fact is, I don't think david kim realize some people play this game for living and even slight imbalance for them would make a huge difference overall. There's a reason why u don't see zerg players dominating the scene and there's a reason why code s zerg players will be even lower next season. Good people , figured out how to deal vs Zerg players. Yeah some people may shine as Zerg and win touneys, thats perfect but it shouldnt representent the majority. With the incomming changes in HOTS I think zerg will be okay but for now at the hightest level of play, they truly need a slight buff. Hello mate, wake up, we are not in the BETA anymore! http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues Zergs are doing perfectly fine. I know that zergs are doing bad in the GSL, but I remember zvz finals too... It's just 1 season. Besides that we see zergs performing very well in tournaments. Ask ANY terran pro about TvZ lategame and you will find words as "joke", "so damn hard" and "broodlord + infestor" in their answer. Zergs actually figured out how to hold terran timing attacks, so they can survive till lategame. And please don't tell me that zerg lategame is perfectly fine... Zerg at the lower level is hard and maybe a little UP, yes, but the higher you get in master league, the more stronger zerg becomes. | ||
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Let it Raine
Canada1245 Posts
if i were david kim i'd be spending my time calling people retarded instead of doing my job if you're not pro you can't speak definitively, and even then, there are pros who are just as bad. people have general opinions taken from others and keep yelling about them as if they are correct, and then yell at david kim for not balancing based on those general (and often times wrong) opinions. | ||
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DanceSC
United States751 Posts
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sieksdekciw
240 Posts
On May 01 2012 22:36 Bellazuk wrote: they truly need a slight buff. No, they need more better players. DRG and Stephano take almost every tournament there is anyway. If you buff zerg even more (I say it is slightly imbalanced against terran, looking at statistics which show a 4 to 6% win rate advantage for zerg in every region in ZvT), DRG and Stephano will take every tournament. Also, adding to the fact that zerg race is again a very easy to control race where micro is almost not present, I believe that zerg needs no buff, and even should be T3 nerfed. | ||
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Rumpus
United States136 Posts
On May 02 2012 05:00 sieksdekciw wrote: No, they need more better players. DRG and Stephano take almost every tournament there is anyway. If you buff zerg even more (I say it is slightly imbalanced against terran, looking at statistics which show a 4 to 6% win rate advantage for zerg in every region in ZvT), DRG and Stephano will take every tournament. Also, adding to the fact that zerg race is again a very easy to control race where micro is almost not present, I believe that zerg needs no buff, and even should be T3 nerfed. I don't know about anyone else but the last thing I want for Zerg is a buff, and I play Zerg. But what I would enjoy is the race to be fixed so that is ACTUALLY ENJOYABLE TO PLAY! Half the units are either boring, useless, or both. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 02 2012 05:26 Rumpus wrote: I don't know about anyone else but the last thing I want for Zerg is a buff, and I play Zerg. But what I would enjoy is the race to be fixed so that is ACTUALLY ENJOYABLE TO PLAY! Half the units are either boring, useless, or both. Then don't play it if you don't like it. | ||
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Rumpus
United States136 Posts
If everyone played this game based purely off interesting mechanics and complete race design, Protoss and Zerg would be removed from the game. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 02 2012 05:35 Rumpus wrote: If everyone played this game based purely off interesting mechanics and complete race design, Protoss and Zerg would be removed from the game. Explain, in which way is Zerg incomplete? In which way is Zerg not interesting? If you want queue mechanic with a human faction that is split in infantry/vehicles/air(/ships) you can basically play any strategy game that has ever been developed. If you want something unique, Zerg and since the introduction of Warp Gates Protoss are something for you. | ||
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Zombo Joe
Canada850 Posts
That way Protoss can't deathball so easily. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On May 02 2012 06:02 Zombo Joe wrote: Warp Gates cooldowns should be changed so that units take their build time to warp in instead of 4 seconds. That way Protoss can't deathball so easily. And watch how protoss falls below 20% winrates in every matchup. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On May 01 2012 12:21 Rumpus wrote: Blizz gutted Terran because it is far easier to ruin a complete race than fix two completely fucked races. =/ Zerg really does need more options. I understand that HoTs will bring those options, but the race just doesn't have the same utility or flexibility as the other races. | ||
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Bellazuk
Canada146 Posts
On May 02 2012 01:44 Snowbear wrote: Hello mate, wake up, we are not in the BETA anymore! http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-international/individual-leagues Zergs are doing perfectly fine. I know that zergs are doing bad in the GSL, but I remember zvz finals too... It's just 1 season. Besides that we see zergs performing very well in tournaments. Ask ANY terran pro about TvZ lategame and you will find words as "joke", "so damn hard" and "broodlord + infestor" in their answer. Zergs actually figured out how to hold terran timing attacks, so they can survive till lategame. And please don't tell me that zerg lategame is perfectly fine... Zerg at the lower level is hard and maybe a little UP, yes, but the higher you get in master league, the more stronger zerg becomes. I don't agree with you, Stephano said in an interview he doesn't go broodlord infestor because it has no mobility and terran will just take all his army and drop in your bases. Thats exactly the kind of reaction of someone who didnt figured how to deal vs Z. It's not coincidence, even David Kim said it so, he said Zergs were doing fine until very recently and theres a reason for that. Let me explain my point. Koreans play for living, Koreans are very dedicated to the game, Koreans never blame imba and try to fix their play b4 blaming anything else, they studied how to deal with Zerg and now their doing perfect. I'm not saying the situation is critical like ZERG need a buff so much! I'm just saying, if they could add somethig about the zerg scouting that may be the solution. edit : I played BW and zerg wasnt really as much fragile that it is now in sc2, you can loose the game by a bad engage even if your multi-task , creep spread, scouting and all that stuff was perfect and thats imo what i think it is very silly but i deal with it and i don't blame balance. | ||
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archon256
United States363 Posts
On May 02 2012 05:44 Big J wrote: Explain, in which way is Zerg incomplete? In which way is Zerg not interesting? If you want queue mechanic with a human faction that is split in infantry/vehicles/air(/ships) you can basically play any strategy game that has ever been developed. If you want something unique, Zerg and since the introduction of Warp Gates Protoss are something for you. I'm pretty tired of how Roach-heavy ZvP is right now. Pretty much every game involves building a ton of Roaches with very little variation, because every other mid-game choice is so risky in comparison. It's no surprise that Blizzard are focusing on the Zerg midgame with their HotS changes. On May 02 2012 09:43 Bellazuk wrote: Koreans never blame imba and try to fix their play b4 blaming anything else This isn't true at all. Just off the top of my head, Fruitdealer, Nestea and DRG have all complained about imbalance in Zerg matchups. You shouldn't make such sweeping generalizations. | ||
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