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On April 23 2012 17:48 Richard_Lewis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 17:46 setmeal wrote:
Seems like a very biased review that puts MLG is a falsely positive light. I agree that the event was very well-run, but I would have liked a more objective review that talks more about Areas of Improvements and strengths and weaknesses instead of so much personal opinion by saying that the fans are unfair to MLG and that Sundance is a great guy (he is, I agree) Serious question - what improvements do you think could be made and what weaknesses do you think were evident?
The biggest weakness of the tournament was overlooked, the competitors.
I payed for the previous PPV-MLG and was happy I did.
This time I checked the player list and realised I didn't care who was winning and found no reason to watch.
GSL is the tournament I watch see these guys duke it out amongst themselves, that part is already taken care of.
Starcraft is not the only sport to be dominated by a single country. IMO both IPL(considering IPL4) and MLG should take notes from other sports with the same "problem", and limit the number of competitors one nation gets in big international competitions(home country exempted).
It's healthy for generating interest among the majority of the spectators, rather than catering to the same niche that GSL does.
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On April 24 2012 01:17 Emix_Squall wrote:
I'm not talking about massive profits and I never did, if you read me carefully, you'll see I wrote "decent" which is a totally different thing. It is obvious eSports is not the kind of business you become rich with. Everyone knows that ...
As far as the comparison with DH and IPL goes, I won't even acknowledge what you said considering these are totally different products that have nothing to do with MLG in terms of the way they operate all year long (one hosts a few major events in Europe and has no league to operate all year long, and the other one offers at the very best 2 major live events a year ...)
Now, talking about how "because you paid the game you deserve to have eSports for free" .... I'm just stunned. How does the fact of paying the game have ANYTHING to do with watching eSports? I play football (the real one with feet involved) and subscribed for a license in my club, should I ask free tickets for all FC Barcelona (or any other major team) games because of that?
I don't need to believe in Sundance reasoning when it perfectly makes sense from a business point of view. But nowadays people tend to see money as such a monster to get rid of, that they can't even connect with the economical reality of the world we live in. If you consider money to be that useless, give me yours, I'll PM you with my datas so that you can make the transfer ASAP. I'll be glad to free you from that burden ...
IPL and Dreamhack are the best comparisons there are, MLG does the same as Dreamhack but just more often, as conventions are more common in the US though this is quite understandable, and these massive events AFAIK have no problems paying themselves back.
The reason you won't compare them is because as you know it effectively kills your argument, as it
proves Sundance is doing something completely wrong, be it in organizing or his morals towards the fans.
Funny how you start of the post with saying I need to read your fanboyish drivel more carefully but then fail basic reading yourself, I said paying for the game AND the adds, which on the half a million pople watching scale that Dreamhack got gives you tons of add revenue, but according to Sundance that doesn't matter ofcourse, despite IPL and Deamhack creating a business on the concept.
And after that your reading skills fail you AGAIN, this is not about money being good or evil, how old are you for gods sake? This is about how much you focus on it and how much you're willing to displease your fans to get a couple extra bucks, this threshhold lies far lower with Sundance then David Ting for instance.
This is about selling out, caring more for the money then the product they deliver, if you're actually too stupid to understand such a concept please do tell, as appearantly you'll need to learn something about the world before you can have discussions like this.
User was temp banned for this post.
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What i wonder...
If MLG really needs money as bad as sundance cries, would they shedule their PPV events on dates where other BIG tournaments are held? No... They wouldn't.. Yet:
MLG Winter --> Assembly (fuck, europe is watching that).
MLG Spring --> Dreamhack Eizo (fuck, europe is watching that).
Seriously, either MLG is totally ignorant of other events, utterly stupid when it comes to business decisions OR does not need money that bad because i doubt any event in dire need of money would willfully "lose" such a big part of their consumers just because they can't check tourney dates of other BIG events...
What MLG does is comparable to sheduling the Olympic Games at the same time as the Football World Cup...
By doing this MLG is hurting itself, the other events and HURTING ESPORTS!!!! ( )
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On April 24 2012 02:28 Velr wrote:What i wonder... If MLG really needs money as bad as sundance cries, would they shedule their PPV events on dates where other BIG tournaments are held? No... They wouldn't.. Yet: MLG Winter --> Assembly (fuck, europe is watching that). MLG Spring --> Dreamhack Eizo (fuck, europe is watching that). Seriously, either MLG is totally ignorant of other events, utterly stupid when it comes to business decisions OR does not need money that bad because i doubt any event in dire need of money would willfully "lose" such a big part of their consumers just because they can't check tourney dates of other BIG events... What MLG does is comparable to sheduling the Olympic Games at the same time as the Football World Cup... By doing this MLG is hurting itself, the other events and HURTING ESPORTS!!!! ( )
I wouldn't say it hurts e-sports, just themselves. Regardless of my stance towards MLG, it wouldn't be THAT bad for them to fail (notice the word THAT, it would be bad, but it wouldn't be the end of the e-sports). I just feel some other tourney would replace them (polarfluke,z33k masters cup - i know these are bad examples, but you get the picture) and e-sports growth would hit a bump but it would still continue to grow...
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Starcraft is not the only sport to be dominated by a single country. IMO both IPL(considering IPL4) and MLG should take notes from other sports with the same "problem", and limit the number of competitors one nation gets in big international competitions(home country exempted
Realy like this idea and a good idea to have a look at other sports.
Mlg goes for the top dogs since thats what most players like to see they think.
Reading forums like tl might indeed give them the impression that people only or mostly care to see the korean top players since thats the opinnion mostly expressed on these forums.
That it not neccesarely the opinnion of the majority of the vieuwers though.
With a tournament of 16, 4 or 3 players max from 1 country.
With a tournament of 8 2 players tops.
Its nice to see the top players play now and then but after a while it gets all the same (at least for me)
would realy like to see more players i can identify with and support.
They dont neccesarely have to be the top of the world, as long as they rank 1 or 2 or 3 of their country or some famous streamer they are interesting to watch for me.
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On April 24 2012 02:11 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 01:17 Emix_Squall wrote:
I'm not talking about massive profits and I never did, if you read me carefully, you'll see I wrote "decent" which is a totally different thing. It is obvious eSports is not the kind of business you become rich with. Everyone knows that ...
As far as the comparison with DH and IPL goes, I won't even acknowledge what you said considering these are totally different products that have nothing to do with MLG in terms of the way they operate all year long (one hosts a few major events in Europe and has no league to operate all year long, and the other one offers at the very best 2 major live events a year ...)
Now, talking about how "because you paid the game you deserve to have eSports for free" .... I'm just stunned. How does the fact of paying the game have ANYTHING to do with watching eSports? I play football (the real one with feet involved) and subscribed for a license in my club, should I ask free tickets for all FC Barcelona (or any other major team) games because of that?
I don't need to believe in Sundance reasoning when it perfectly makes sense from a business point of view. But nowadays people tend to see money as such a monster to get rid of, that they can't even connect with the economical reality of the world we live in. If you consider money to be that useless, give me yours, I'll PM you with my datas so that you can make the transfer ASAP. I'll be glad to free you from that burden ... IPL and Dreamhack are the best comparisons there are, MLG does the same as Dreamhack but just more often, as conventions are more common in the US though this is quite understandable, and these massive events AFAIK have no problems paying themselves back. The reason you won't compare them is because as you know it effectively kills your argument, as it proves Sundance is doing something completely wrong, be it in organizing or his morals towards the fans. Funny how you start of the post with saying I need to read your fanboyish drivel more carefully but then fail basic reading yourself, I said paying for the game AND the adds, which on the half a million pople watching scale that Dreamhack got gives you tons of add revenue, but according to Sundance that doesn't matter ofcourse, despite IPL and Deamhack creating a business on the concept. And after that your reading skills fail you AGAIN, this is not about money being good or evil, how old are you for gods sake? This is about how much you focus on it and how much you're willing to displease your fans to get a couple extra bucks, this threshhold lies far lower with Sundance then David Ting for instance. This is about selling out, caring more for the money then the product they deliver, if you're actually too stupid to understand such a concept please do tell, as appearantly you'll need to learn something about the world before you can have discussions like this.
By using the phrase "selling out" in reference to the actions of a business, you weaken any argument had. Businesses are in the practice of making money in order to continue operating. All of their goals center around that and anythign else is secondary. The response from fans is important, but only to see if they are willing to buy what the business is offering.
Also, the black and white argument of right and wrong does not really apply to the PPV events. Sundance is not doing anything wrong, beyond offering a product that people have the option to buy and enjoy. Morals do not really fit into this as well, as he is not attempting to cure sick orphans with the profits or hurting anyone by hosting the PPV events.
Finally, I would avoid insulting people in your arguments or questioning their ability to read. I know it seems like it makes your argument stronger, but it does not.
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Honestly I'm starting to wonder if Sundance isn't just some random entrepreneur trying to find a niche to cash in on, he doesn't sound like a gamer, doesn't look like one and only acts like one when he's doing his childish "I get it" routine.
Not to mention that his unreasonable love for Halo just screams console tard.
I guess he's the one killing esports.
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On April 24 2012 02:42 Scootaloo wrote:
Honestly I'm starting to wonder if Sundance isn't just some random entrepreneur trying to find a niche to cash in on, he doesn't sound like a gamer, doesn't look like one and only acts like one when he's doing his childish "I get it" routine.
Not to mention that his unreasonable love for Halo just screams console tard.
I guess he's the one killing esports.
Dont need to be a gamer to run a business.
Granted, some perspective could help him out in some areas.
Also mucho ad hominem, whats up with that?
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Plansix, go etiquette someone else, if someone tries to insult my reading comprehension but then fails at it himself I have every right to call him out on it.
The rest of your argument is just mindless extreme capitalism copypasta, if your argument seriously is that companies can not be held liable for trying immoral means to get more income appearantly BP was not wrong for disregarding
safety protocol, or pharmaceuticals companies testing their new poisons on impoverished Africans.
If Sundance is abusing peoples love for Esports to force them to pay money for a sub par product, they will eventually get demoralized and stop buying his crap or anything Esports related, hurting Esports for his own profit, perhaps hurting Esports is not as bad as killing millions of sea creatures, but it does, just like with BP, mean they are morally reprehensible.
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I think Scootaloo is a troll, guys. Best not to respond.
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On April 24 2012 01:40 Scootaloo wrote:
Miniwheats, wrong again, perhaps you just don't know that much players (you're American so it makes sense you don't know shit about the EU scene) but Dreamhack had a fantastic line up, perhaps they didn't have that many Koreana but they didn't either at the Dreamhack at the huge stadium that Hero won, yet for many people that is the most memorable and biggest tourney ever.
And the crowd would have gone crazy for a lot of other people as well, Genius pulling in a toss win, Ret finally getting a really big win or even Polt, remember, this is not some shitty MLG or IPL with american audiences.
And the boring an antisocial comment was still pretty accurate, you can bitch about it being am unfair comparison but Thorzain looked an acted ecstatic, same with most Koreans in front of a big audience, the biggest thing MLG completely failed in.
And you say MLG was leagueas above Dreamhack in quality, bullshit, MLG players where all jetlagged, playing tons of buildor/coinflip craft, especially day 1 was atrocious.
User was warned for this post
Oh sorry, didn't realize you were an idiot.
No I think I do have an idea. In fact I probably know of more notable EU pros than American ones, because...herp derp they're better. They have consistently performed better on average and therefore I've had more opportunities to take notice of them. Perhaps you watch every small craft cup and know who players such as:
soedinho, tailss, kurble, otso, Patjuh, Wonnaplay, sofie, etc are but I don't. Those people I'm calling unknowns and lesser known might have at most a paragraph on liquipedia if anything at all.
It's also funny you say Dreamhack Winter (the one herO won) was the most memorable and big, yet you don't even name it specifically. Not to mention it didn't take two rounds for the groups to start to actually look good like with this one -_-.
As for "shitty American audiences", err I seem to remember MLG Columbus and Anaheim receiving similar acclaim. Anaheim this year is also expected to be huge.
We can argue the the game quality all day. Fine, whatever, the Koreans were jet lagged I'll humor you. Irregardless what I watched were far better games of Starcraft at the arena from my perception. I'm strongly having my doubts that you did based on your last comment.
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On April 24 2012 02:42 Scootaloo wrote:
Honestly I'm starting to wonder if Sundance isn't just some random entrepreneur trying to find a niche to cash in on, he doesn't sound like a gamer, doesn't look like one and only acts like one when he's doing his childish "I get it" routine.
Not to mention that his unreasonable love for Halo just screams console tard.
I guess he's the one killing esports.
most uninformed post i've ever read.
http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/videos/19320-history-of-mlg
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On April 24 2012 02:58 Scootaloo wrote:
Plansix, go etiquette someone else, if someone tries to insult my reading comprehension but then fails at it himself I have every right to call him out on it.
The rest of your argument is just mindless extreme capitalism copypasta, if your argument seriously is that companies can not be held liable for trying immoral means to get more income appearantly BP was not wrong for disregarding
safety protocol, or pharmaceuticals companies testing their new poisons on impoverished Africans.
If Sundance is abusing peoples love for Esports to force them to pay money for a sub par product, they will eventually get demoralized and stop buying his crap or anything Esports related, hurting Esports for his own profit, perhaps hurting Esports is not as bad as killing millions of sea creatures, but it does, just like with BP, mean they are morally reprehensible.
Ok, so by compairing MLG to BP, it has become clear that no argument you make in the future will be rational or based in reality. Also, "copypasta" is not a word and you should avoid insulting other people when you are trying to make a point.
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On April 24 2012 03:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 02:58 Scootaloo wrote:
Plansix, go etiquette someone else, if someone tries to insult my reading comprehension but then fails at it himself I have every right to call him out on it.
The rest of your argument is just mindless extreme capitalism copypasta, if your argument seriously is that companies can not be held liable for trying immoral means to get more income appearantly BP was not wrong for disregarding
safety protocol, or pharmaceuticals companies testing their new poisons on impoverished Africans.
If Sundance is abusing peoples love for Esports to force them to pay money for a sub par product, they will eventually get demoralized and stop buying his crap or anything Esports related, hurting Esports for his own profit, perhaps hurting Esports is not as bad as killing millions of sea creatures, but it does, just like with BP, mean they are morally reprehensible.
Ok, so by compairing MLG to BP, it has become clear that no argument you make in the future will be rational or based in reality. Also, "copypasta" is not a word and you should avoid insulting other people when you are trying to make a point.
You should try to actually face arguments instead of trying to be condescending.
The metaphor might be extreme but if you can't see the connection or validity of the argument I have no idea where you got those fancy worda from, but it ain't a book.
And I already told you to quit the whining about grammer, it's not making you look intelligent, just nitpicky and incapable of discussion.
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On April 24 2012 03:01 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 01:40 Scootaloo wrote:
Miniwheats, wrong again, perhaps you just don't know that much players (you're American so it makes sense you don't know shit about the EU scene) but Dreamhack had a fantastic line up, perhaps they didn't have that many Koreana but they didn't either at the Dreamhack at the huge stadium that Hero won, yet for many people that is the most memorable and biggest tourney ever.
And the crowd would have gone crazy for a lot of other people as well, Genius pulling in a toss win, Ret finally getting a really big win or even Polt, remember, this is not some shitty MLG or IPL with american audiences.
And the boring an antisocial comment was still pretty accurate, you can bitch about it being am unfair comparison but Thorzain looked an acted ecstatic, same with most Koreans in front of a big audience, the biggest thing MLG completely failed in.
And you say MLG was leagueas above Dreamhack in quality, bullshit, MLG players where all jetlagged, playing tons of buildor/coinflip craft, especially day 1 was atrocious.
User was warned for this post Oh sorry, didn't realize you were an idiot. No I think I do have an idea. In fact I probably know of more notable EU pros than American ones, because...herp derp they're better. They have consistently performed better on average and therefore I've had more opportunities to take notice of them. Perhaps you watch every small craft cup and know who players such as: soedinho, tailss, kurble, otso, Patjuh, Wonnaplay, sofie, etc are but I don't. Those people I'm calling unknowns and lesser known might have at most a paragraph on liquipedia if anything at all. It's also funny you say Dreamhack Winter (the one herO won) was the most memorable and big, yet you don't even name it specifically. Not to mention it didn't take two rounds for the groups to start to actually look good like with this one -_-. As for "shitty American audiences", err I seem to remember MLG Columbus and Anaheim receiving similar acclaim. Anaheim this year is also expected to be huge. We can argue the the game quality all day. Fine, whatever, the Koreans were jet lagged I'll humor you. Irregardless what I watched were far better games of Starcraft at the arena from my perception. I'm strongly having my doubts that you did based on your last comment.
Hey if you're talking about most of the tournament being unknowns it's pretty logical to assume you're just not an avid watcher of Euro tourneys, perhaps because I missed the first half of day 1 but I didn't see a single person I hadn't seen before.
And about me not knowing the official DHW name, does it seriously matter? I don't remember the taglines for the MLG or GSL's either, as far as I'm concerned they're pretty irrelevant compared to the games and the show itself.
And about the audiences, I watched most of the non PPV MLG events and there always seemed to be less people and likely as a resuly a less loud and vibrant crowd, and the crowd at the last IPL was just a nightmare, hence my assumption that they're bad.
And trust me, I did watch the MLG arena, I didn't pay for it but I most certainly watched it. (If you want more details, pm me, not looking for a ban)
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Step 1: Find an opinion piece of writing. (or to a different extent an LR thread of an event that is already finished)
Step 2: Click the last page
And there you go! This is how you find an argument about something completely unrelated to the article on TeamLiquid.
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On April 24 2012 03:34 Scootaloo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 03:01 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:On April 24 2012 01:40 Scootaloo wrote:
Miniwheats, wrong again, perhaps you just don't know that much players (you're American so it makes sense you don't know shit about the EU scene) but Dreamhack had a fantastic line up, perhaps they didn't have that many Koreana but they didn't either at the Dreamhack at the huge stadium that Hero won, yet for many people that is the most memorable and biggest tourney ever.
And the crowd would have gone crazy for a lot of other people as well, Genius pulling in a toss win, Ret finally getting a really big win or even Polt, remember, this is not some shitty MLG or IPL with american audiences.
And the boring an antisocial comment was still pretty accurate, you can bitch about it being am unfair comparison but Thorzain looked an acted ecstatic, same with most Koreans in front of a big audience, the biggest thing MLG completely failed in.
And you say MLG was leagueas above Dreamhack in quality, bullshit, MLG players where all jetlagged, playing tons of buildor/coinflip craft, especially day 1 was atrocious.
User was warned for this post Oh sorry, didn't realize you were an idiot. No I think I do have an idea. In fact I probably know of more notable EU pros than American ones, because...herp derp they're better. They have consistently performed better on average and therefore I've had more opportunities to take notice of them. Perhaps you watch every small craft cup and know who players such as: soedinho, tailss, kurble, otso, Patjuh, Wonnaplay, sofie, etc are but I don't. Those people I'm calling unknowns and lesser known might have at most a paragraph on liquipedia if anything at all. It's also funny you say Dreamhack Winter (the one herO won) was the most memorable and big, yet you don't even name it specifically. Not to mention it didn't take two rounds for the groups to start to actually look good like with this one -_-. As for "shitty American audiences", err I seem to remember MLG Columbus and Anaheim receiving similar acclaim. Anaheim this year is also expected to be huge. We can argue the the game quality all day. Fine, whatever, the Koreans were jet lagged I'll humor you. Irregardless what I watched were far better games of Starcraft at the arena from my perception. I'm strongly having my doubts that you did based on your last comment. Hey if you're talking about most of the tournament being unknowns it's pretty logical to assume you're just not an avid watcher of Euro tourneys, perhaps because I missed the first half of day 1 but I didn't see a single person I hadn't seen before. And about me not knowing the official DHW name, does it seriously matter? I don't remember the taglines for the MLG or GSL's either, as far as I'm concerned they're pretty irrelevant compared to the games and the show itself. And about the audiences, I watched most of the non PPV MLG events and there always seemed to be less people and likely as a resuly a less loud and vibrant crowd, and the crowd at the last IPL was just a nightmare, hence my assumption that they're bad. And trust me, I did watch the MLG arena, I didn't pay for it but I most certainly watched it. (If you want more details, pm me, not looking for a ban)
The crowd at IPL4 wasn't that bad after the first day. I was there and didn't notice anything wrong, other than a lot of people left after the first bo5 during Squirtle vs Alive because it was so late on a sunday night.
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To me personally it doesnt even matter that much how good MLG is quality wise, I just hope the PPV model wont ever become a standard. For me as a rather casual viewer it would basically lead to not watching any events anymore, if most of them would cost 5 or 10 dollars, and I imagine others would feel the same way. I just can't see it helping the whole E-Sports-scene in the long run, as it will be even less accessible to people "on the outside".
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If you don't follow the hivemind, you are wrong. God forbid someone who paid $10 to watch the Spring Arena says it was worth his money and that the tournament was good. Please! I also cough up $10 only to watch HuK play but ended up watching the whole thing and in the end I felt it was very much worth it. The finals and end result pretty much justified my $10. If you didn't, well sorry for you. Don't give them your money next time or think harder about it. Oh I forgot to mention that I watched DreamHack as well and thought that was good to. Impossible to think two tournaments were good you say? I think not.
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The costs are different too in US and EU.
In most US convention centers, you'll have a shitty internet, at least unsuited for gaming, even for IPL in Vegas. So organizers have to rent a big connection, which is very expensive (low tens of thousands I'd guess, remember the satellite truck, rumored to cost 100k iirc ?). If you organize a lan in EU, you just rent 2 standards ADSL lines from a local provider for 15€ a piece and you got 1000MB up/down (I'm exaggerating but you got the point). If you're in Sweden it's even better, they have Korean like internet. Then there are the convention centers themselves, which cost a lot, while DH has its own place in the very center of Europe (mostly), accessible from all EU countries by train/plane for a 100€ ticket. (the accessibility is beyond the point I know, the point is they don't have to rent a new place for every lan)
So I'd guess Dreamhack can be profitable just by selling on site tickets, while MLG can't.
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EPT
