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On April 19 2012 00:19 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 23:47 Fragile51 wrote:On April 18 2012 23:34 Velr wrote:On April 18 2012 23:29 Doganaws wrote:
I just can't stand to MOVING BORROWED BANELINGS. For low league players is alrady hard to manage with damnation and now they're making it movable!!! I play T but i'm pretty shure i'll have to switch to Z... Thats the only thing i like about all these unit previews... Everything else feels boring or downright stupid (swarmhost). Pretty sure im opening a can of worms here but what the hell is stupid about the swarmhost? The way it's been shown right now it's basically a lurker mixed with a brood lord, a siege unit that provides area control. That's not stupid, that's great. I agree with Velr. Swarm Hosts are a fail from a game design perspective. They are like that Viper pull ability, a joke. Remember at Blizzcon how the audience laughed when Viper pulled that Collosus? If I was Dustin Browder I would have been so embarased. Dustin its okay to quitt your job, making basketball no2 is no easy task. Its okay to admit defeat. Infact I dont blame Dustin so much, those other "creative" guys suck aswell. Only thing i resnt him for is being so stuborn and acting like a little offended girl when people ask him legitimate questions like: why dont they just "fix" the pathing rather than presenting these ridiculous workarounds like units not working in proximity to friendly units.
He asked why Velr thinks that swarmhosts are stupid. Why do you quote him, when you don't talk about what he is asking?
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On April 19 2012 00:29 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 00:19 NukeD wrote:On April 18 2012 23:47 Fragile51 wrote:On April 18 2012 23:34 Velr wrote:On April 18 2012 23:29 Doganaws wrote:
I just can't stand to MOVING BORROWED BANELINGS. For low league players is alrady hard to manage with damnation and now they're making it movable!!! I play T but i'm pretty shure i'll have to switch to Z... Thats the only thing i like about all these unit previews... Everything else feels boring or downright stupid (swarmhost). Pretty sure im opening a can of worms here but what the hell is stupid about the swarmhost? The way it's been shown right now it's basically a lurker mixed with a brood lord, a siege unit that provides area control. That's not stupid, that's great. I agree with Velr. Swarm Hosts are a fail from a game design perspective. They are like that Viper pull ability, a joke. Remember at Blizzcon how the audience laughed when Viper pulled that Collosus? If I was Dustin Browder I would have been so embarased. Dustin its okay to quitt your job, making basketball no2 is no easy task. Its okay to admit defeat. Infact I dont blame Dustin so much, those other "creative" guys suck aswell. Only thing i resnt him for is being so stuborn and acting like a little offended girl when people ask him legitimate questions like: why dont they just "fix" the pathing rather than presenting these ridiculous workarounds like units not working in proximity to friendly units. I didnt look where i was clicking. He asked why Velr thinks that swarmhosts are stupid. Why do you quote him, when you don't talk about what he is asking?
I didnt look where i was clicking.
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meh, some changes look lik...nevermind long-ranged terran missile launcher...
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the swarm host is just a bad brood lord with all its problems:
a) it does not defend itself very well. Attack in the intervall between two spawns and you won't even get hit
b) it does not have any AoE, so it is ineffective against clumped units (the opposite to what the lurker was!)
c) one alone cannot do much, you need a stack of them (just like brood lords; few broods are wasted money, you always need a critical mass or they are wasted)
d) it does not provide any control over an area, since any unit walking through will not even be in any immediate danger (you can outrun broodlings)
e) its attack can be shot down. In the previews the broodlings had way too high stats (one spawn could take on half an ultralisk). This will most probably not remain as strong, so if you dont have enough swarm hosts, most likely the spawns will get lazored/shot away before they even reach the enemy. Brood lords at least do some impact damage even when the brood lings get instantly shot. Oh, and try to siege a protoss who can forcefield his ramp. So much about being a good siege unit.
f) it will be gas heavy
g) it cannot escape on its own, Brood lords can at least kite to some extend (or fly over cliffs/void)
h) since it is a siege unit (and does not provide much else, except for maybe scouting if you wish), it will sit outside your opponents base. So covering it with lings will be mostly ineffective (if marines move out to shoot it and you send lings in to defend it your lings will be in range of base defenses). Therefore you need either roach/hydra (who do not share upgrades!) or infestors (who cost a ton of gas).
To sum it up: It is a really bad designed unit since it is basically a brood lord on the ground with most of its flaws and a slightly different flavour. In my opinion, this unit really sucks, and i hope they decide to drop it.
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They need something to make TvP mech viable for a change. Tired of playing pure bio...
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On April 19 2012 01:05 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
They need something to make TvP mech viable for a change. Tired of playing pure bio...
So, a rapid fire unit like the Marine?
You alread have the Marine 
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On April 19 2012 01:05 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
They need something to make TvP mech viable for a change. Tired of playing pure bio...
Then they should remove the marauder from the game. That way there would actually be a reason to try a different unit composition.
At the moment, marauders give bio balls a beefiness that they just shouldn't have. This beefiness means they can actually stand up to storms for example. If there were no marauders, a terran could still go for marine+ghost, but it would be like walking on a razor's edge. One missed EMP and you lose half your army.
And then people would do more mech-based play, which would then stand up better to toss AOE. Obviously it would require some buffs to factory units, but it would increase unit diversity.
I was actually sure Blizzard would remove marauders when I heard about the battle hellion and warhound being added. Those two units will allow mech to have that beefiness, while going bio would be more mobile but less durable.
The reason why Blizzard can't come up with anything for terran in HotS is because they are so well-rounded already. If you remove the marauder, you create a hole in design space and you can fill that hole with factory units. This makes mech more viable and creates new things for terrans to play with.
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On April 19 2012 00:59 Cirqueenflex wrote:
the swarm host is just a bad brood lord with all its problems:
a) it does not defend itself very well. Attack in the intervall between two spawns and you won't even get hit
b) it does not have any AoE, so it is ineffective against clumped units (the opposite to what the lurker was!)
c) one alone cannot do much, you need a stack of them (just like brood lords; few broods are wasted money, you always need a critical mass or they are wasted)
d) it does not provide any control over an area, since any unit walking through will not even be in any immediate danger (you can outrun broodlings)
e) its attack can be shot down. In the previews the broodlings had way too high stats (one spawn could take on half an ultralisk). This will most probably not remain as strong, so if you dont have enough swarm hosts, most likely the spawns will get lazored/shot away before they even reach the enemy. Brood lords at least do some impact damage even when the brood lings get instantly shot. Oh, and try to siege a protoss who can forcefield his ramp. So much about being a good siege unit.
f) it will be gas heavy
g) it cannot escape on its own, Brood lords can at least kite to some extend (or fly over cliffs/void)
h) since it is a siege unit (and does not provide much else, except for maybe scouting if you wish), it will sit outside your opponents base. So covering it with lings will be mostly ineffective (if marines move out to shoot it and you send lings in to defend it your lings will be in range of base defenses). Therefore you need either roach/hydra (who do not share upgrades!) or infestors (who cost a ton of gas).
To sum it up: It is a really bad designed unit since it is basically a brood lord on the ground with most of its flaws and a slightly different flavour. In my opinion, this unit really sucks, and i hope they decide to drop it.
I disagree with a bunch of points (only going to comment on the swarm host, not the broodlord):
b) that's not necessarily a problem; it's not even the point of the swarm host, that's what banelings and a unit that can be built from the same tech building are for: Infestors.
c) you don't know that, it depends on the stats, but for me it looks like few swarm hosts could be good, because they spawn highhealth melee units, which basically means they can be balanced to be pretty good in low numbers, but due to melee aspect of locusts don't sum up very well.
e) Why do you think the locusts had too high stats? Also why isn't it OK for a swarm host to counter ultralisks? A Marauder counters an Ultralisk as well in pure 1v1 battle and is even lower tech and cheaper than a swarm host.
And yes, they can be shot, but you are still binding units to a place, and if you can force him to waste energy on (free) locusts instead of real units, I really can't see how this is a bad deal for the zerg player.
f) 200/100 in their first presentation. That's a very good ratio for a midgame unit, because it allows you to spend your gas, but you can still build roaches or upgrades, it's not as gasheavy as mutalisks or infestors, if it stays in this 2:1 ratio.
g) Their speed looked pretty standard 2.25 or something like that. Thats not superstrong, but it's a siege weapon that should spot opponents from a range of 15 or probably more. It's just as hard to run with it, as it is with siegetanks, and that's not impossible either. (add to that, that it comes with burrow!)
h) The swarm host will have more "range" than a siege tank from how the preview looks like. Your opponent has to walk quite a distance away from his statics.
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On April 19 2012 01:24 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 01:05 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
They need something to make TvP mech viable for a change. Tired of playing pure bio... Then they should remove the marauder from the game. That way there would actually be a reason to try a different unit composition. At the moment, marauders give bio balls a beefiness that they just shouldn't have. This beefiness means they can actually stand up to storms for example. If there were no marauders, a terran could still go for marine+ghost, but it would be like walking on a razor's edge. One missed EMP and you lose half your army. And then people would do more mech-based play, which would then stand up better to toss AOE. Obviously it would require some buffs to factory units, but it would increase unit diversity. I was actually sure Blizzard would remove marauders when I heard about the battle hellion and warhound being added. Those two units will allow mech to have that beefiness, while going bio would be more mobile but less durable. The reason why Blizzard can't come up with anything for terran in HotS is because they are so well-rounded already. If you remove the marauder, you create a hole in design space and you can fill that hole with factory units. This makes mech more viable and creates new things for terrans to play with.
Marauders should not be removed, but redesigned as a more fragile 1 food unit. That way, MMM remains very DPS heavy like it is, but has the weakness of splash, which it currently does not have unless you simply 1aing. This would also make over stiming your Maruaders dangerous for once.
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4713 Posts
On April 19 2012 01:24 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 01:05 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
They need something to make TvP mech viable for a change. Tired of playing pure bio... Then they should remove the marauder from the game. That way there would actually be a reason to try a different unit composition. At the moment, marauders give bio balls a beefiness that they just shouldn't have. This beefiness means they can actually stand up to storms for example. If there were no marauders, a terran could still go for marine+ghost, but it would be like walking on a razor's edge. One missed EMP and you lose half your army. And then people would do more mech-based play, which would then stand up better to toss AOE. Obviously it would require some buffs to factory units, but it would increase unit diversity. I was actually sure Blizzard would remove marauders when I heard about the battle hellion and warhound being added. Those two units will allow mech to have that beefiness, while going bio would be more mobile but less durable. The reason why Blizzard can't come up with anything for terran in HotS is because they are so well-rounded already. If you remove the marauder, you create a hole in design space and you can fill that hole with factory units. This makes mech more viable and creates new things for terrans to play with.
That's stupid. One of the best things that Blizzard have done to Terrans was make bio better and more well rounded then in BW.
Bio style is fast paced and exciting, relying on small highly mobile numbers to hit and run around the map and pull enemies apart, it also requires very fine control with almost constant stutter-step, splits and what-not to keep it alive.
The marine might be the primary infantry of the terrans, but the marauders till have their important role.
If you remove the marauder you destroy the versatility of bio, you kill bio.
The marauder is here to stay, deal with it.
That however doesn't mean that mech can't be made more functional, it does have its places in TvT and TvZ, but it could use more work especially on the TvP front, but that doesn't involve killing bio in the process.
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On April 19 2012 01:37 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 01:24 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 01:05 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
They need something to make TvP mech viable for a change. Tired of playing pure bio... Then they should remove the marauder from the game. That way there would actually be a reason to try a different unit composition. At the moment, marauders give bio balls a beefiness that they just shouldn't have. This beefiness means they can actually stand up to storms for example. If there were no marauders, a terran could still go for marine+ghost, but it would be like walking on a razor's edge. One missed EMP and you lose half your army. And then people would do more mech-based play, which would then stand up better to toss AOE. Obviously it would require some buffs to factory units, but it would increase unit diversity. I was actually sure Blizzard would remove marauders when I heard about the battle hellion and warhound being added. Those two units will allow mech to have that beefiness, while going bio would be more mobile but less durable. The reason why Blizzard can't come up with anything for terran in HotS is because they are so well-rounded already. If you remove the marauder, you create a hole in design space and you can fill that hole with factory units. This makes mech more viable and creates new things for terrans to play with. Marauders should not be removed, but redesigned as a more fragile 1 food unit. That way, MMM remains very DPS heavy like it is, but has the weakness of splash, which it currently does not have unless you simply 1aing. This would also make over stiming your Maruaders dangerous for once.
Terran could never use bio against protoss anymore, it sounds silly.
I think people suffer from Brood War nostalgia and feel like TvP should be mech-based, while TvZ could be about bio. Which sounds like a terrible way to go about designing the game.
Also, I don't like someone's suggestion to have marauder removal be about more vulnerability to storm. This tightrope act where one missed EMP means death is a horrible idea that would have bio only be viable at very high skill levels, if that.
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On April 19 2012 01:57 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 01:37 GinDo wrote:On April 19 2012 01:24 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 01:05 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
They need something to make TvP mech viable for a change. Tired of playing pure bio... Then they should remove the marauder from the game. That way there would actually be a reason to try a different unit composition. At the moment, marauders give bio balls a beefiness that they just shouldn't have. This beefiness means they can actually stand up to storms for example. If there were no marauders, a terran could still go for marine+ghost, but it would be like walking on a razor's edge. One missed EMP and you lose half your army. And then people would do more mech-based play, which would then stand up better to toss AOE. Obviously it would require some buffs to factory units, but it would increase unit diversity. I was actually sure Blizzard would remove marauders when I heard about the battle hellion and warhound being added. Those two units will allow mech to have that beefiness, while going bio would be more mobile but less durable. The reason why Blizzard can't come up with anything for terran in HotS is because they are so well-rounded already. If you remove the marauder, you create a hole in design space and you can fill that hole with factory units. This makes mech more viable and creates new things for terrans to play with. Marauders should not be removed, but redesigned as a more fragile 1 food unit. That way, MMM remains very DPS heavy like it is, but has the weakness of splash, which it currently does not have unless you simply 1aing. This would also make over stiming your Maruaders dangerous for once. Terran could never use bio against protoss anymore, it sounds silly. I think people suffer from Brood War nostalgia and feel like TvP should be mech-based, while TvZ could be about bio. Which sounds like a terrible way to go about designing the game. Also, I don't like someone's suggestion to have marauder removal be about more vulnerability to storm. This tightrope act where one missed EMP means death is a horrible idea that would have bio only be viable at very high skill levels, if that.
That is my point though, you can't have everything. Making a sacrifice with regards to bio in order to make mech viable would mean that some people could play bio and everyone could play mech. Whereas at the moment terrans say that everyone can play bio and no one can play mech. That seems like more diversity to me, but if you don't want mech then so be it. Just seems like most people do want to be able to use mech.
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On April 19 2012 02:09 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 01:57 Grumbels wrote:On April 19 2012 01:37 GinDo wrote:On April 19 2012 01:24 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 01:05 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
They need something to make TvP mech viable for a change. Tired of playing pure bio... Then they should remove the marauder from the game. That way there would actually be a reason to try a different unit composition. At the moment, marauders give bio balls a beefiness that they just shouldn't have. This beefiness means they can actually stand up to storms for example. If there were no marauders, a terran could still go for marine+ghost, but it would be like walking on a razor's edge. One missed EMP and you lose half your army. And then people would do more mech-based play, which would then stand up better to toss AOE. Obviously it would require some buffs to factory units, but it would increase unit diversity. I was actually sure Blizzard would remove marauders when I heard about the battle hellion and warhound being added. Those two units will allow mech to have that beefiness, while going bio would be more mobile but less durable. The reason why Blizzard can't come up with anything for terran in HotS is because they are so well-rounded already. If you remove the marauder, you create a hole in design space and you can fill that hole with factory units. This makes mech more viable and creates new things for terrans to play with. Marauders should not be removed, but redesigned as a more fragile 1 food unit. That way, MMM remains very DPS heavy like it is, but has the weakness of splash, which it currently does not have unless you simply 1aing. This would also make over stiming your Maruaders dangerous for once. Terran could never use bio against protoss anymore, it sounds silly. I think people suffer from Brood War nostalgia and feel like TvP should be mech-based, while TvZ could be about bio. Which sounds like a terrible way to go about designing the game. Also, I don't like someone's suggestion to have marauder removal be about more vulnerability to storm. This tightrope act where one missed EMP means death is a horrible idea that would have bio only be viable at very high skill levels, if that. That is my point though, you can't have everything. Making a sacrifice with regards to bio in order to make mech viable would mean that some people could play bio and everyone could play mech. Whereas at the moment terrans say that everyone can play bio and no one can play mech. That seems like more diversity to me, but if you don't want mech then so be it. Just seems like most people do want to be able to use mech.
Removing a functional, well used and balanced unit to promote a play style is flawed and a poor way to design a game. The battle hellon is a better way, as it removes nothing from the game and only adds options for terran players. Bio is a viable play style with its own flaws and there is not reason to weaken it. Mech play has its limits for a number of reasons, mostly with the lack of a front line, mineral based, unit to tank damage. The battle hellions should be able to fill that rolel
Personally, I like most of the changes they are talking about. Protoss air needed a boost to be a viable way to play and the tempest may do that. As a protoss, I would take any air unit that did damage to ground units and did not have to charge up, or launch fighters. Zerg is getting more options and the nydus options sound promising to open new ways to play. The viper sounds way more reasonable now and more of a support caster than a must have unit.
Removing things that work in the current match ups is not the way to make the game better, adding more options is.
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On April 18 2012 08:10 0neder wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 07:42 Fueled wrote: We have not kept the shredder My prayers have been answered. But the reason was horrible. 'It might catch players off guard to not have any more workers' ?!?!?!?!?!? Wait, so we're going to completely nullify harassment and excitement in the name of bronze league? Nothing but banelings vs unupgraded tier 1 will be one shot kills.
It seems almosty like the 4 BF hellion drops. He only has to drop one of these things on a mining base, and everything there is dead. Except with BF hellions, you needed to actually icro and line the workers up. The other thing with the shredder is that you cant rebuild or mine until you get rid of it.
Not to mention if you drop them down to block hatcheries and what not
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On April 19 2012 02:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 02:09 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 01:57 Grumbels wrote:On April 19 2012 01:37 GinDo wrote:On April 19 2012 01:24 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 01:05 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
They need something to make TvP mech viable for a change. Tired of playing pure bio... Then they should remove the marauder from the game. That way there would actually be a reason to try a different unit composition. At the moment, marauders give bio balls a beefiness that they just shouldn't have. This beefiness means they can actually stand up to storms for example. If there were no marauders, a terran could still go for marine+ghost, but it would be like walking on a razor's edge. One missed EMP and you lose half your army. And then people would do more mech-based play, which would then stand up better to toss AOE. Obviously it would require some buffs to factory units, but it would increase unit diversity. I was actually sure Blizzard would remove marauders when I heard about the battle hellion and warhound being added. Those two units will allow mech to have that beefiness, while going bio would be more mobile but less durable. The reason why Blizzard can't come up with anything for terran in HotS is because they are so well-rounded already. If you remove the marauder, you create a hole in design space and you can fill that hole with factory units. This makes mech more viable and creates new things for terrans to play with. Marauders should not be removed, but redesigned as a more fragile 1 food unit. That way, MMM remains very DPS heavy like it is, but has the weakness of splash, which it currently does not have unless you simply 1aing. This would also make over stiming your Maruaders dangerous for once. Terran could never use bio against protoss anymore, it sounds silly. I think people suffer from Brood War nostalgia and feel like TvP should be mech-based, while TvZ could be about bio. Which sounds like a terrible way to go about designing the game. Also, I don't like someone's suggestion to have marauder removal be about more vulnerability to storm. This tightrope act where one missed EMP means death is a horrible idea that would have bio only be viable at very high skill levels, if that. That is my point though, you can't have everything. Making a sacrifice with regards to bio in order to make mech viable would mean that some people could play bio and everyone could play mech. Whereas at the moment terrans say that everyone can play bio and no one can play mech. That seems like more diversity to me, but if you don't want mech then so be it. Just seems like most people do want to be able to use mech. Removing a functional, well used and balanced unit to promote a play style is flawed and a poor way to design a game. The battle hellon is a better way, as it removes on thing from the game and only adds options for terran players. Bio is a viable play style with its own flaws and there is not reason to weaken it. Mech play has its limits for a number of reasons, mostly with the lack of a front line, mineral based, unit to tank damage. The battle hellions should be able to fill that rolel Personally, I like most of the changes they are talking about. Protoss air needed a boost to be a viable way to play and the tempest may do that. As a protoss, I would take any air unit that did damage to ground units and did not have to charge up, or launch fighters. Zerg is getting more options and the nydus options sound promising to open new ways to play. The viper sounds way more reasonable now and more of a support caster than a must have unit. Removing things that work in the current match ups is not the way to make the game better, adding more options is.
Yes i agree that adding more options is the way to go. I was just speculating on a way for them to free up design space for those new options.
Also, you say that the battle hellion removes one thing. What does adding the battle hellion remove from the game? I thought the hellion could transform back and forth between battle mode. Are you saying they are taking out the original hellion?
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On April 19 2012 02:25 Orbiter wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 08:10 0neder wrote:On April 18 2012 07:42 Fueled wrote: We have not kept the shredder My prayers have been answered. But the reason was horrible. 'It might catch players off guard to not have any more workers' ?!?!?!?!?!? Wait, so we're going to completely nullify harassment and excitement in the name of bronze league? Nothing but banelings vs unupgraded tier 1 will be one shot kills. It seems almosty like the 4 BF hellion drops. He only has to drop one of these things on a mining base, and everything there is dead. Except with BF hellions, you needed to actually icro and line the workers up. The other thing with the shredder is that you cant rebuild or mine until you get rid of it. Not to mention if you drop them down to block hatcheries and what not
Also, the shredder did AOE damage in a wide area. This means that no matter what, the units that went to kill it would take damage, with no need for the terran player to micro at all. Its like a super baneling that is always exploding.
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On April 19 2012 02:29 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 02:24 Plansix wrote:On April 19 2012 02:09 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 01:57 Grumbels wrote:On April 19 2012 01:37 GinDo wrote:On April 19 2012 01:24 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 01:05 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
They need something to make TvP mech viable for a change. Tired of playing pure bio... Then they should remove the marauder from the game. That way there would actually be a reason to try a different unit composition. At the moment, marauders give bio balls a beefiness that they just shouldn't have. This beefiness means they can actually stand up to storms for example. If there were no marauders, a terran could still go for marine+ghost, but it would be like walking on a razor's edge. One missed EMP and you lose half your army. And then people would do more mech-based play, which would then stand up better to toss AOE. Obviously it would require some buffs to factory units, but it would increase unit diversity. I was actually sure Blizzard would remove marauders when I heard about the battle hellion and warhound being added. Those two units will allow mech to have that beefiness, while going bio would be more mobile but less durable. The reason why Blizzard can't come up with anything for terran in HotS is because they are so well-rounded already. If you remove the marauder, you create a hole in design space and you can fill that hole with factory units. This makes mech more viable and creates new things for terrans to play with. Marauders should not be removed, but redesigned as a more fragile 1 food unit. That way, MMM remains very DPS heavy like it is, but has the weakness of splash, which it currently does not have unless you simply 1aing. This would also make over stiming your Maruaders dangerous for once. Terran could never use bio against protoss anymore, it sounds silly. I think people suffer from Brood War nostalgia and feel like TvP should be mech-based, while TvZ could be about bio. Which sounds like a terrible way to go about designing the game. Also, I don't like someone's suggestion to have marauder removal be about more vulnerability to storm. This tightrope act where one missed EMP means death is a horrible idea that would have bio only be viable at very high skill levels, if that. That is my point though, you can't have everything. Making a sacrifice with regards to bio in order to make mech viable would mean that some people could play bio and everyone could play mech. Whereas at the moment terrans say that everyone can play bio and no one can play mech. That seems like more diversity to me, but if you don't want mech then so be it. Just seems like most people do want to be able to use mech. Removing a functional, well used and balanced unit to promote a play style is flawed and a poor way to design a game. The battle hellon is a better way, as it removes on thing from the game and only adds options for terran players. Bio is a viable play style with its own flaws and there is not reason to weaken it. Mech play has its limits for a number of reasons, mostly with the lack of a front line, mineral based, unit to tank damage. The battle hellions should be able to fill that rolel Personally, I like most of the changes they are talking about. Protoss air needed a boost to be a viable way to play and the tempest may do that. As a protoss, I would take any air unit that did damage to ground units and did not have to charge up, or launch fighters. Zerg is getting more options and the nydus options sound promising to open new ways to play. The viper sounds way more reasonable now and more of a support caster than a must have unit. Removing things that work in the current match ups is not the way to make the game better, adding more options is. Yes i agree that adding more options is the way to go. I was just speculating on a way for them to free up design space for those new options. Also, you say that the battle hellion removes one thing. What does adding the battle hellion remove from the game? I thought the hellion could transform back and forth between battle mode. Are you saying they are taking out the original hellion?
I fixed it, it should have said nothing, since the battle hellion is just a hellion with an alternate form. As for design space, they do not need to remove things to add in units or options. Adding options onto existing units is a better route and only makes the current gameplay deeper.
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On April 19 2012 02:35 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 02:29 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 02:24 Plansix wrote:On April 19 2012 02:09 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 01:57 Grumbels wrote:On April 19 2012 01:37 GinDo wrote:On April 19 2012 01:24 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 01:05 Inquisitor1323 wrote:
They need something to make TvP mech viable for a change. Tired of playing pure bio... Then they should remove the marauder from the game. That way there would actually be a reason to try a different unit composition. At the moment, marauders give bio balls a beefiness that they just shouldn't have. This beefiness means they can actually stand up to storms for example. If there were no marauders, a terran could still go for marine+ghost, but it would be like walking on a razor's edge. One missed EMP and you lose half your army. And then people would do more mech-based play, which would then stand up better to toss AOE. Obviously it would require some buffs to factory units, but it would increase unit diversity. I was actually sure Blizzard would remove marauders when I heard about the battle hellion and warhound being added. Those two units will allow mech to have that beefiness, while going bio would be more mobile but less durable. The reason why Blizzard can't come up with anything for terran in HotS is because they are so well-rounded already. If you remove the marauder, you create a hole in design space and you can fill that hole with factory units. This makes mech more viable and creates new things for terrans to play with. Marauders should not be removed, but redesigned as a more fragile 1 food unit. That way, MMM remains very DPS heavy like it is, but has the weakness of splash, which it currently does not have unless you simply 1aing. This would also make over stiming your Maruaders dangerous for once. Terran could never use bio against protoss anymore, it sounds silly. I think people suffer from Brood War nostalgia and feel like TvP should be mech-based, while TvZ could be about bio. Which sounds like a terrible way to go about designing the game. Also, I don't like someone's suggestion to have marauder removal be about more vulnerability to storm. This tightrope act where one missed EMP means death is a horrible idea that would have bio only be viable at very high skill levels, if that. That is my point though, you can't have everything. Making a sacrifice with regards to bio in order to make mech viable would mean that some people could play bio and everyone could play mech. Whereas at the moment terrans say that everyone can play bio and no one can play mech. That seems like more diversity to me, but if you don't want mech then so be it. Just seems like most people do want to be able to use mech. Removing a functional, well used and balanced unit to promote a play style is flawed and a poor way to design a game. The battle hellon is a better way, as it removes on thing from the game and only adds options for terran players. Bio is a viable play style with its own flaws and there is not reason to weaken it. Mech play has its limits for a number of reasons, mostly with the lack of a front line, mineral based, unit to tank damage. The battle hellions should be able to fill that rolel Personally, I like most of the changes they are talking about. Protoss air needed a boost to be a viable way to play and the tempest may do that. As a protoss, I would take any air unit that did damage to ground units and did not have to charge up, or launch fighters. Zerg is getting more options and the nydus options sound promising to open new ways to play. The viper sounds way more reasonable now and more of a support caster than a must have unit. Removing things that work in the current match ups is not the way to make the game better, adding more options is. Yes i agree that adding more options is the way to go. I was just speculating on a way for them to free up design space for those new options. Also, you say that the battle hellion removes one thing. What does adding the battle hellion remove from the game? I thought the hellion could transform back and forth between battle mode. Are you saying they are taking out the original hellion? I fixed it, it should have said nothing, since the battle hellion is just a hellion with an alternate form. As for design space, they do not need to remove things to add in units or options. Adding options onto existing units is a better route and only makes the current gameplay deeper.
Yeah i guess I'm just confused as to why they are trying so hard to keep some units (battlecruiser, reaper), while they completely gave up on something like the carrier, never trying to change it once. Doesn't make sense to take out units at all, as you said, they should be finding solutions for those units. But if they are doing so, why not be consistent across the races.
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Mech isn't even a fun way to play. I don't get it. Vultures don't exist anymore, you know, so all mech can be nowadays is just this attack-moving blob made mildly interesting by the need to siege up before a battle. Warhounds are just thors that are more conveniently massed, but they're not more interesting. Battle-hellions are even less interesting than hellions, they're just attack-moving meat shields with okay AoE damage.
Is that the end-game for people that want the marauder to be removed? Having only one incredibly boring death ball style for TvP that takes no skill whatsoever? (just because one has a fetish for mech units? transformers obsession much?)
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On April 19 2012 02:48 Grumbels wrote:
Mech isn't even a fun way to play. I don't get it. Vultures don't exist anymore, you know, so all mech can be nowadays is just this attack-moving blob made mildly interesting by the need to siege up before a battle. Warhounds are just thors that are more conveniently massed, but they're not more interesting. Battle-hellions are even less interesting than hellions, they're just attack-moving meat shields with okay AoE damage.
Is that the end-game for people that want the marauder to be removed? Having only one incredibly boring death ball style for TvP that takes no skill whatsoever? (just because one has a fetish for mech units? transformers obsession much?)
I don't get it either. The entirety of the battle hellion's purpose is to make it so terrans don't have to micro against chargelots anymore. Making micro easier is the opposite direction that the game should be going in.
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EPT
