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On April 19 2012 03:08 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 02:48 Grumbels wrote:
Mech isn't even a fun way to play. I don't get it. Vultures don't exist anymore, you know, so all mech can be nowadays is just this attack-moving blob made mildly interesting by the need to siege up before a battle. Warhounds are just thors that are more conveniently massed, but they're not more interesting. Battle-hellions are even less interesting than hellions, they're just attack-moving meat shields with okay AoE damage.
Is that the end-game for people that want the marauder to be removed? Having only one incredibly boring death ball style for TvP that takes no skill whatsoever? (just because one has a fetish for mech units? transformers obsession much?) I don't get it either. The entirety of the battle hellion's purpose is to make it so terrans don't have to micro against chargelots anymore. Making micro easier is the opposite direction that the game should be going in.
Actually while I agree with you it's more of just leveling the playing field, so that The Terran will have just as easy time A-Moving as Protoss already do.
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On April 19 2012 03:11 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 03:08 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 02:48 Grumbels wrote:
Mech isn't even a fun way to play. I don't get it. Vultures don't exist anymore, you know, so all mech can be nowadays is just this attack-moving blob made mildly interesting by the need to siege up before a battle. Warhounds are just thors that are more conveniently massed, but they're not more interesting. Battle-hellions are even less interesting than hellions, they're just attack-moving meat shields with okay AoE damage.
Is that the end-game for people that want the marauder to be removed? Having only one incredibly boring death ball style for TvP that takes no skill whatsoever? (just because one has a fetish for mech units? transformers obsession much?) I don't get it either. The entirety of the battle hellion's purpose is to make it so terrans don't have to micro against chargelots anymore. Making micro easier is the opposite direction that the game should be going in. Actually while I agree with you it's more of just leveling the playing field, so that The Terran will have just as easy time A-Moving as Protoss already do.
Yeah, I know that's the reason. I just wish they could instead give protoss ways to micro more. For example by letting players control their zealots while charging, or any of those fun chargelot and voidray micro tricks that Blizzard took out of the game when people discovered them.
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I would love it if they buff Battecruisers to make them as viable late game as Broodlords are.
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give terran some viable t3 plz blizzard.
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On April 19 2012 03:19 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 03:11 Blasterion wrote:On April 19 2012 03:08 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 02:48 Grumbels wrote:
Mech isn't even a fun way to play. I don't get it. Vultures don't exist anymore, you know, so all mech can be nowadays is just this attack-moving blob made mildly interesting by the need to siege up before a battle. Warhounds are just thors that are more conveniently massed, but they're not more interesting. Battle-hellions are even less interesting than hellions, they're just attack-moving meat shields with okay AoE damage.
Is that the end-game for people that want the marauder to be removed? Having only one incredibly boring death ball style for TvP that takes no skill whatsoever? (just because one has a fetish for mech units? transformers obsession much?) I don't get it either. The entirety of the battle hellion's purpose is to make it so terrans don't have to micro against chargelots anymore. Making micro easier is the opposite direction that the game should be going in. Actually while I agree with you it's more of just leveling the playing field, so that The Terran will have just as easy time A-Moving as Protoss already do. Yeah, I know that's the reason. I just wish they could instead give protoss ways to micro more. For example by letting players control their zealots while charging, or any of those fun chargelot and voidray micro tricks that Blizzard took out of the game when people discovered them.
Once again, chargelots work currently in the match up and have their own flaws, so changing them to increase the micro requirement may not result in better gameplay. If anything, the battle hellion will show how limited they are since they cannot be microed. It is ok to have a few A move units in the game.
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On April 19 2012 03:53 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 03:19 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 03:11 Blasterion wrote:On April 19 2012 03:08 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 02:48 Grumbels wrote:
Mech isn't even a fun way to play. I don't get it. Vultures don't exist anymore, you know, so all mech can be nowadays is just this attack-moving blob made mildly interesting by the need to siege up before a battle. Warhounds are just thors that are more conveniently massed, but they're not more interesting. Battle-hellions are even less interesting than hellions, they're just attack-moving meat shields with okay AoE damage.
Is that the end-game for people that want the marauder to be removed? Having only one incredibly boring death ball style for TvP that takes no skill whatsoever? (just because one has a fetish for mech units? transformers obsession much?) I don't get it either. The entirety of the battle hellion's purpose is to make it so terrans don't have to micro against chargelots anymore. Making micro easier is the opposite direction that the game should be going in. Actually while I agree with you it's more of just leveling the playing field, so that The Terran will have just as easy time A-Moving as Protoss already do. Yeah, I know that's the reason. I just wish they could instead give protoss ways to micro more. For example by letting players control their zealots while charging, or any of those fun chargelot and voidray micro tricks that Blizzard took out of the game when people discovered them. Once again, chargelots work currently in the match up and have their own flaws, so changing them to increase the micro requirement may not result in better gameplay. If anything, the battle hellion will show how limited they are since they cannot be microed. It is ok to have a few A move units in the game.
I think that's a good way to think. If protoss have a style of play that lets you just attack-move armies in, then having counters as terran that require a similar lack of effort seems okay. As long as those two styles aren't the strongest, then it's a fair way to design the game.
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On April 19 2012 04:07 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 03:53 Plansix wrote:On April 19 2012 03:19 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 03:11 Blasterion wrote:On April 19 2012 03:08 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 02:48 Grumbels wrote:
Mech isn't even a fun way to play. I don't get it. Vultures don't exist anymore, you know, so all mech can be nowadays is just this attack-moving blob made mildly interesting by the need to siege up before a battle. Warhounds are just thors that are more conveniently massed, but they're not more interesting. Battle-hellions are even less interesting than hellions, they're just attack-moving meat shields with okay AoE damage.
Is that the end-game for people that want the marauder to be removed? Having only one incredibly boring death ball style for TvP that takes no skill whatsoever? (just because one has a fetish for mech units? transformers obsession much?) I don't get it either. The entirety of the battle hellion's purpose is to make it so terrans don't have to micro against chargelots anymore. Making micro easier is the opposite direction that the game should be going in. Actually while I agree with you it's more of just leveling the playing field, so that The Terran will have just as easy time A-Moving as Protoss already do. Yeah, I know that's the reason. I just wish they could instead give protoss ways to micro more. For example by letting players control their zealots while charging, or any of those fun chargelot and voidray micro tricks that Blizzard took out of the game when people discovered them. Once again, chargelots work currently in the match up and have their own flaws, so changing them to increase the micro requirement may not result in better gameplay. If anything, the battle hellion will show how limited they are since they cannot be microed. It is ok to have a few A move units in the game. I think that's a good way to think. If protoss have a style of play that lets you just attack-move armies in, then having counters as terran that require a similar lack of effort seems okay. As long as those two styles aren't the strongest, then it's a fair way to design the game.
Who cares about fairness? Balance later. Let's maximize exciting army interaction dynamics first!
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On April 19 2012 04:07 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 03:53 Plansix wrote:On April 19 2012 03:19 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 03:11 Blasterion wrote:On April 19 2012 03:08 Fig wrote:On April 19 2012 02:48 Grumbels wrote:
Mech isn't even a fun way to play. I don't get it. Vultures don't exist anymore, you know, so all mech can be nowadays is just this attack-moving blob made mildly interesting by the need to siege up before a battle. Warhounds are just thors that are more conveniently massed, but they're not more interesting. Battle-hellions are even less interesting than hellions, they're just attack-moving meat shields with okay AoE damage.
Is that the end-game for people that want the marauder to be removed? Having only one incredibly boring death ball style for TvP that takes no skill whatsoever? (just because one has a fetish for mech units? transformers obsession much?) I don't get it either. The entirety of the battle hellion's purpose is to make it so terrans don't have to micro against chargelots anymore. Making micro easier is the opposite direction that the game should be going in. Actually while I agree with you it's more of just leveling the playing field, so that The Terran will have just as easy time A-Moving as Protoss already do. Yeah, I know that's the reason. I just wish they could instead give protoss ways to micro more. For example by letting players control their zealots while charging, or any of those fun chargelot and voidray micro tricks that Blizzard took out of the game when people discovered them. Once again, chargelots work currently in the match up and have their own flaws, so changing them to increase the micro requirement may not result in better gameplay. If anything, the battle hellion will show how limited they are since they cannot be microed. It is ok to have a few A move units in the game. I think that's a good way to think. If protoss have a style of play that lets you just attack-move armies in, then having counters as terran that require a similar lack of effort seems okay. As long as those two styles aren't the strongest, then it's a fair way to design the game.
In brood war, Protoss was still a A-move race, and considered the easiest to play like we have today however back then a-moving your shit meant losing all of it to mines and tanks and getting utterly decimated.
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On April 19 2012 02:48 Grumbels wrote:
Mech isn't even a fun way to play. I don't get it. Vultures don't exist anymore, you know, so all mech can be nowadays is just this attack-moving blob made mildly interesting by the need to siege up before a battle. Warhounds are just thors that are more conveniently massed, but they're not more interesting. Battle-hellions are even less interesting than hellions, they're just attack-moving meat shields with okay AoE damage.
Is that the end-game for people that want the marauder to be removed? Having only one incredibly boring death ball style for TvP that takes no skill whatsoever? (just because one has a fetish for mech units? transformers obsession much?)
This is a very interesting point. I was not a BW player, though I've watched some VODs since picking up SC2, and a huge part of what made Terran play so exciting was the use of vultures and spider mines. Hit and run attacks, mine traps, and many other uses made it a much more exciting unit to both use and watch. Compare that to the hellion which, while having worker-roasting potential, is easily nullified and doesn't have any abilities that promote longevity or creative use.
So then you see these packs of hellions just sitting idly all game, clearing up the occassional drop but exerting absolutely zero map control, which was something the vulture excelled at doing. This leads to, as you said, very uneventful games where the mech player slowly sieges across the map, which is all he has to do as the hellion is so one-dimensional that it contributes nothing more than it's main splash attack to the battle.
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i think battle hellion is not the way to go to make mech viable in TvP. The hellion currently is the only light unit in the mech arsenal, thus the only unit not eating full damage from the immortal. If it gets transformed into an armored unit, suddenly any immortal-based army will just chew through the supposed-to-be meatshield of terran mech. Even stalker do bonus damage vs armored, so aside from colossi (which will then be kinda redundand) it will most likely increase the protoss damage output vs terran mech.
On a side note, the splash damage of the hellions is often times not so useful in TvP, as the charge upgrade (which is in my opinon the main problem of Terran mech besides immortals and to a lesser extend blink stalker) reduces the splash damage to a minimum (chargelots will not walk in a line towards hellions, they will charge and form a concave too fast). Also, i do not think balancing around AoE units to fix TvP is a clever idea. Protoss has the fewest units and often times thus takes the least AoE damage on their core gateway units (blink & charge help for that). Furthermore, AoE units heavily influence the other matchups (mostly TvZ). For example, battle hellions (more hp, armored unit) could completely shut down any mass ling (+bling) unit composition, even when not going mech. And to open up an option for one matchup while shutting down main stream options for other races in other matchups does not seem smart.
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My problem with marauders is that they are a bit too good at everything they do. IMO, a good nerf to them is basically make their regular damage 5, and their + armored damage to +15 so at the end of the day, they still do the same 20 to armored but only 5 to regular, meaning you need marines in your bioball to keep up the DPS.
Also, buildings should have armored affix removed from them, and only defensive / offensive buildings should have armored + hatcheries. Production buildings and research buildings shouldn't be armored.
IMO, they really need to do something about the colossus. I feel like the design for that unit is basically nill. There is no micro for that unit, and there really isn't much gameplay other than fast clicking a-move or orb walking it.
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I wish Blizzard would get more serious about addressing the deathball issue. The most effective way to use units shouldn't be to clump them as much as possible. We need more positional play or something. Bring back Khaydarin amulet and buff storm so bioballs straight up don't work lategame, and then give Terran new tools to deal with it.
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On April 19 2012 00:59 Cirqueenflex wrote:
the swarm host is just a bad brood lord with all its problems:
a) it does not defend itself very well. Attack in the intervall between two spawns and you won't even get hit
b) it does not have any AoE, so it is ineffective against clumped units (the opposite to what the lurker was!)
c) one alone cannot do much, you need a stack of them (just like brood lords; few broods are wasted money, you always need a critical mass or they are wasted)
d) it does not provide any control over an area, since any unit walking through will not even be in any immediate danger (you can outrun broodlings)
e) its attack can be shot down. In the previews the broodlings had way too high stats (one spawn could take on half an ultralisk). This will most probably not remain as strong, so if you dont have enough swarm hosts, most likely the spawns will get lazored/shot away before they even reach the enemy. Brood lords at least do some impact damage even when the brood lings get instantly shot. Oh, and try to siege a protoss who can forcefield his ramp. So much about being a good siege unit.
f) it will be gas heavy
g) it cannot escape on its own, Brood lords can at least kite to some extend (or fly over cliffs/void)
h) since it is a siege unit (and does not provide much else, except for maybe scouting if you wish), it will sit outside your opponents base. So covering it with lings will be mostly ineffective (if marines move out to shoot it and you send lings in to defend it your lings will be in range of base defenses). Therefore you need either roach/hydra (who do not share upgrades!) or infestors (who cost a ton of gas).
To sum it up: It is a really bad designed unit since it is basically a brood lord on the ground with most of its flaws and a slightly different flavour. In my opinion, this unit really sucks, and i hope they decide to drop it.
a) no siege unit defends itself well, all of them need support. colo needs support, broods need support, tanks need support.
b) it does not need a AoE like a traditional siege unit has. as with the broodlord, this is a very unique concept. having a unit send endless waves of FREE units is beyond good. the units it shoots out is free in supply, free in gas, free in energy, free in minerals. just think of the possibilities of that. best fodder u will ever have.
c) of course u need more than one... would a terran make only 1 siege tank? no its useless. 1 brood lord? useless. 1 colo? useless.
d) that is not its purpose. every unit has a purpose. broodlords do not control space but there sieging ability is just fine regardless. please just get lurkers out of ur head. every unit cant be a lurker nor does it need to be.
e) thats the entire point of the swarm host. it soakes up the first few siege tank shots while ur main army remains unharmed while moving in. this means that roaches and even HYDRAS can be more effective against terran in TvZ if the terran focuses most of there shots on the swarm hosts locusts. stop thinking so generally, a siege unit does not need a AoE with super long range to be considered a siege unit. think outside of the box.
f) this isnt a valid statement at all. alot of things are gas heavy. deal with it.
g) umm, whats stopping u from burrowing and running away? there nearly as fast as speed roaches on creep. u can easily escape with them. at this point i dont even think you are trying and are just whining because its not a lurker.
h) explain why it would be ineffective?
to sum it up, you are just making up excuses because it is not a lurker and therefore are being biased as hell.
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On April 19 2012 04:13 Kodak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 02:48 Grumbels wrote:
Mech isn't even a fun way to play. I don't get it. Vultures don't exist anymore, you know, so all mech can be nowadays is just this attack-moving blob made mildly interesting by the need to siege up before a battle. Warhounds are just thors that are more conveniently massed, but they're not more interesting. Battle-hellions are even less interesting than hellions, they're just attack-moving meat shields with okay AoE damage.
Is that the end-game for people that want the marauder to be removed? Having only one incredibly boring death ball style for TvP that takes no skill whatsoever? (just because one has a fetish for mech units? transformers obsession much?) This is a very interesting point. I was not a BW player, though I've watched some VODs since picking up SC2, and a huge part of what made Terran play so exciting was the use of vultures and spider mines. Hit and run attacks, mine traps, and many other uses made it a much more exciting unit to both use and watch. Compare that to the hellion which, while having worker-roasting potential, is easily nullified and doesn't have any abilities that promote longevity or creative use. So then you see these packs of hellions just sitting idly all game, clearing up the occassional drop but exerting absolutely zero map control, which was something the vulture excelled at doing. This leads to, as you said, very uneventful games where the mech player slowly sieges across the map, which is all he has to do as the hellion is so one-dimensional that it contributes nothing more than it's main splash attack to the battle.
Now that I think about it. The vulture argument is very true.
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On April 19 2012 04:13 Kodak wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 02:48 Grumbels wrote:
Mech isn't even a fun way to play. I don't get it. Vultures don't exist anymore, you know, so all mech can be nowadays is just this attack-moving blob made mildly interesting by the need to siege up before a battle. Warhounds are just thors that are more conveniently massed, but they're not more interesting. Battle-hellions are even less interesting than hellions, they're just attack-moving meat shields with okay AoE damage.
Is that the end-game for people that want the marauder to be removed? Having only one incredibly boring death ball style for TvP that takes no skill whatsoever? (just because one has a fetish for mech units? transformers obsession much?) This is a very interesting point. I was not a BW player, though I've watched some VODs since picking up SC2, and a huge part of what made Terran play so exciting was the use of vultures and spider mines. Hit and run attacks, mine traps, and many other uses made it a much more exciting unit to both use and watch. Compare that to the hellion which, while having worker-roasting potential, is easily nullified and doesn't have any abilities that promote longevity or creative use. So then you see these packs of hellions just sitting idly all game, clearing up the occassional drop but exerting absolutely zero map control, which was something the vulture excelled at doing. This leads to, as you said, very uneventful games where the mech player slowly sieges across the map, which is all he has to do as the hellion is so one-dimensional that it contributes nothing more than it's main splash attack to the battle.
I'm not sure if vultures could still work in Starcraft 2 though. I think it's something very specific about the pathfinding that made them exciting in Brood War, but perhaps someone that tried them out in single-player can better inform me about this.
In any case, I always thought they should give hellions the ability to create trails of flame (blaze in Diablo II) as a special ability, which would be similar to spider mines in combat situations (not for map control though), but that's just me indulging in wishful thinking. ^_^
I also think that after the nerf to the blue flame attack, the hellion is not a very exciting unit anymore. You can still use them for worker harass, but damage is more spread out and you don't get the satisfying hits that kill multiple workers too much anymore. It was probably too strong, though. Warhounds and battle hellions aren't tremendously exciting for me as well. I wish Blizzard would go beyond making mech viable and rather prioritize having it be a fun playstyle.
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On April 19 2012 04:15 Cirqueenflex wrote:
i think battle hellion is not the way to go to make mech viable in TvP. The hellion currently is the only light unit in the mech arsenal, thus the only unit not eating full damage from the immortal. If it gets transformed into an armored unit, suddenly any immortal-based army will just chew through the supposed-to-be meatshield of terran mech. Even stalker do bonus damage vs armored, so aside from colossi (which will then be kinda redundand) it will most likely increase the protoss damage output vs terran mech.
On a side note, the splash damage of the hellions is often times not so useful in TvP, as the charge upgrade (which is in my opinon the main problem of Terran mech besides immortals and to a lesser extend blink stalker) reduces the splash damage to a minimum (chargelots will not walk in a line towards hellions, they will charge and form a concave too fast). Also, i do not think balancing around AoE units to fix TvP is a clever idea. Protoss has the fewest units and often times thus takes the least AoE damage on their core gateway units (blink & charge help for that). Furthermore, AoE units heavily influence the other matchups (mostly TvZ). For example, battle hellions (more hp, armored unit) could completely shut down any mass ling (+bling) unit composition, even when not going mech. And to open up an option for one matchup while shutting down main stream options for other races in other matchups does not seem smart.
Battle Hellion is still light.
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Blizz give us some battle reports for HotS :D
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On April 19 2012 05:36 Leviance wrote:
Blizz give us some battle reports for HotS :D
yeah, this would be sick 
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On April 19 2012 05:38 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 05:36 Leviance wrote:
Blizz give us some battle reports for HotS :D yeah, this would be sick
There's some rumours going around about HotS at MLG Anaheim.
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On April 19 2012 05:53 Grumbels wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2012 05:38 Big J wrote:On April 19 2012 05:36 Leviance wrote:
Blizz give us some battle reports for HotS :D yeah, this would be sick There's some rumours going around about HotS at MLG Anaheim.
It would be awesome if they did a battle report, but let pros play the game. Hell, a live beta show match would be the best if the pros had access to play before hand.
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EPT
