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On April 18 2012 10:02 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 09:16 Roe wrote:On April 18 2012 09:05 ThomasHobbes wrote:On April 18 2012 08:10 0neder wrote:On April 18 2012 07:42 Fueled wrote: We have not kept the shredder My prayers have been answered. But the reason was horrible. 'It might catch players off guard to not have any more workers' ?!?!?!?!?!? Wait, so we're going to completely nullify harassment and excitement in the name of bronze league? Nothing but banelings vs unupgraded tier 1 will be one shot kills. It was intended as a means to gain map control, every Terran and his mother was using it to clean up minerals lines instead. That's a classic design failure, they admitted it wasn't working and took it out of the game. It wasn't supposed to be a "if this gets in your mineral line it's the end of the game", Terran already has the best harassment in the game, it was supposed to be a way to stop runbys and corner off the map. It wasn't working. You could say the same about spider mines and reaver scarabs. The first was intended only to hit non-worker units, but if the enemy made a mistake their workers would take the hit. If the reaver gets in your mineral line all your workers are usually dead quite easily, unless you take precautions (like turrets, etc) which would be the same case in SC2. The only issue about making Shredders only affect by non-workers is that Zerg will QQ. And with reason. They will be the only race that cannot out range the shredder in order to kill it without triggering its attack, unless they tech hydra against Terran T_T.
well it doesnt even have to be non-workers, you just make it a fairly long burrow time (6 seconds is the amount in the HOTS custom UMS which worked fine). people should be able to pull workers in 6 seconds + time of detecting it incoming. hell you had an even worse time against reavers in bw but people still managed somehow
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Canada11355 Posts
6 seconds? That's sooo much time to pull workers especially if they are coming in via medivac. I kinda liked the idea of a defensive unit that could be used to wreck mining bases' workers like the old school ht and reaver. But perhaps the shredder wasn't the right unit. Multi-purpose units are much more interesting.
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I cant see why blizzard cannot develop on the "idea/concept" of the shredder which I think is pretty interesting and how it brings back some of the dynamics that the spider mines from BW had on each matchups. If blizzard is reading this, here are some thoughts in improving the concept of the shredder.
-Shredders are used for zone control and hence naturally lead to map Control. Spider mines also did the same in BW although they were more of a one off thing since the mines can be cleared or used. The mines had very low hitpoints but the biggest factor in being able to give T the map control was its invisibility. This made the opposing players either risk going into enemy territory or force them to be passive and cautious. However the current shredder (from blizzcon) is a visible unit that has to do ridiculous amount of damage to both air and ground because the enemy knows where it is. Theres not much thought process in dealing with the shredder other than either getting rid of it in return for potential losses, or just avoid it all together. Theres no risk, reward or a way of clearing things out by investing in detector tech like with the spider mines.
Suggestion: Make the shredder "burrow" to the ground. Once an enemy unit becomes in range, it is activated, unburrows a potion of its head and starts radiating, dealing damage to ground units while in return exposing itself to be destroyed. Should not affect air units.
-Worker harass is probably the biggest thing that shutdown this concept. However there are ways to avoid that problem all together just like how spidermines worked against workers. They did not activate against workers because they hovered (vultures also did not trigger mines). The only time it would be triggered is when an enemy fighting unit was nearby. The shredder should follow a similiar concept.
Suggestion: Make the shredder only trigger to non-hover units (all workers should be considered to hover as they do). Hence even if they are placed in the mineral line, nothing will happen unless the enemy units move into the area of the shredder where it will trigger.
-Then we have the problem of when it triggers, what happens when friendly troops are inside the shredder range. I think this should be done similiar to what the spider mine did. It did not trigger when friendlies were nearby but it did when enemy troops were nearby. Not only that but it would still go off even if friendly troops were in the vicinity and cause friendly fire which is always entertaining to watch. So its like a double edge sword but if used correctly, it will be highly rewarded.
Suggestion: The shredder does not activate when friendly troops are nearby. BUT when enemy units come within the shredder range, it will activate itself and deal damage to friendly/enemy ground unit within the range of the shredder.
Ok what happens if other shredders are nearby? They aren't affected but damages in areas where it overlaps are multiplied. Makes it a ton lethal to not only the enemy but your friendly troops. You can see that now this is possible because now shredders can be effectively be removed by a detector + air units.
Its no different to spidermines? well they are suppose to fulfil similiar roles but because the shredder is a unit, it eats up your supply and probably cost alot more. However it is also more durable and last longer in controlling the area then spidermines. Can also be picked/dropped. I guess its a hybrid between a lurker and a spider mine which I think it would bring a rather interesting plays/tactics.
Just my 2cents..
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It's a way too hard theorycraft about an expansion who have a lot of gameplay behind (two years of WoL). Remember that, a lot of more changes will be done, and other units will be added, I think zergs are "complete", and they will have slightly adjustments (nydus), but terran and protoss will have a lot of changes.
First of all, shredder and replicant has gone.. so, probably we've see two more units, they don't have talked about that.. but is so strange, oracle and tempest are not enaugh, if you want to made protoss less "deathball dependant" you've to reinforce the core gateway army, and next you can nerf t3's units.. and I'm not talking about the HT, but the colossus. If the gateway army will be competitive against terran's rax army, or zergs t1 army you can made colossi with an attack like 10 + 5 against light, this can be fine. Until the gateway army is so bad (and is really bad without t2 ups like charge and blink, and those ups open you a possible different tech, if you want to go robo you've to open the council tech to have those upgrades) as a protoss player you cannot be aggressive without going allin, and have to rush the tech.
Terrans as the same point of view needs units to add hp's on the late army, against protoss the late game is so difficult because terrans units are really good, but ghost + viking + mm is not easy to control, and have less hp than the protoss deathball who have a lot of high damage splash. They will put focus on factory units, and a goliath (or an unit like that.. the warhound was just a Goliath with more hp and no simultaneous air/ground fire). And dear terrans, I would estimate a bio nerf if the mech became really good.. because that bio for 10 minutes into a strong mechplay is totally OP ^^ No one can beat someone like MKP with that.
And think about what I've wrote, this is more similar to BW.. I hope in so many options for every race.. and with LotV, with other new units there will be a lot, lot, of tactics. Maybe I'm too much optimist.. but blizzard knows what have to develop on its games.. sc2 had a lot of nice things.. but the UI (first) and some problems on the game have made WoL not at the top, and they knows that.
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4713 Posts
On April 18 2012 05:03 Tump wrote:
They should introduce a unit or modify an existing one to have some sort of Lockdown from Starcraft 1 for Protoss, so the 1-1-1 is held off easier. The Replicant was a bad solution to the current 1-1-1 dilemma.
If they go through with the Warhound, this ability won't further destroy mech viability, because it'll probably be hard to cast on mass siege tank lines, and when you use Warhounds instead of Thors, there will be much more in a fight, so using Lockdown on them won't be as effective as the Thor.
Just an idea.
This is a joke right?
1-1-1 is almost not being done any more, SC2 maps are becoming so big and so defensive that 1-1-1 hardly ever works any more. If anything we need the opposite to happen, maps become a bit more small or less defensive to encourage engagements and aggression to start earlier, not later.
But one thing is for sure, toss don't need any help holding a 1-1-1, and we certainly don't need another stupid micro limiting ability.
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On April 18 2012 21:13 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 05:03 Tump wrote:
They should introduce a unit or modify an existing one to have some sort of Lockdown from Starcraft 1 for Protoss, so the 1-1-1 is held off easier. The Replicant was a bad solution to the current 1-1-1 dilemma.
If they go through with the Warhound, this ability won't further destroy mech viability, because it'll probably be hard to cast on mass siege tank lines, and when you use Warhounds instead of Thors, there will be much more in a fight, so using Lockdown on them won't be as effective as the Thor.
Just an idea. This is a joke right? 1-1-1 is almost not being done any more, SC2 maps are becoming so big and so defensive that 1-1-1 hardly ever works any more. If anything we need the opposite to happen, maps become a bit more small or less defensive to encourage engagements and aggression to start earlier, not later. But one thing is for sure, toss don't need any help holding a 1-1-1, and we certainly don't need another stupid micro limiting ability.
Wholeheartedly agreed. Maps are getting too big. We need bw like aggression where you can attack with few units and come out ahead dzw to superb multitasking, not a turtlefest on 3 or 2 bases.
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On April 18 2012 21:59 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 21:13 Destructicon wrote:On April 18 2012 05:03 Tump wrote:
They should introduce a unit or modify an existing one to have some sort of Lockdown from Starcraft 1 for Protoss, so the 1-1-1 is held off easier. The Replicant was a bad solution to the current 1-1-1 dilemma.
If they go through with the Warhound, this ability won't further destroy mech viability, because it'll probably be hard to cast on mass siege tank lines, and when you use Warhounds instead of Thors, there will be much more in a fight, so using Lockdown on them won't be as effective as the Thor.
Just an idea. This is a joke right? 1-1-1 is almost not being done any more, SC2 maps are becoming so big and so defensive that 1-1-1 hardly ever works any more. If anything we need the opposite to happen, maps become a bit more small or less defensive to encourage engagements and aggression to start earlier, not later. But one thing is for sure, toss don't need any help holding a 1-1-1, and we certainly don't need another stupid micro limiting ability. Wholeheartedly agreed. Maps are getting too big. We need bw like aggression where you can attack with few units and come out ahead dzw to superb multitasking, not a turtlefest on 3 or 2 bases.
Not our fault that blizzard designed "aggression" around steps of war.
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On April 18 2012 21:59 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 21:13 Destructicon wrote:On April 18 2012 05:03 Tump wrote:
They should introduce a unit or modify an existing one to have some sort of Lockdown from Starcraft 1 for Protoss, so the 1-1-1 is held off easier. The Replicant was a bad solution to the current 1-1-1 dilemma.
If they go through with the Warhound, this ability won't further destroy mech viability, because it'll probably be hard to cast on mass siege tank lines, and when you use Warhounds instead of Thors, there will be much more in a fight, so using Lockdown on them won't be as effective as the Thor.
Just an idea. This is a joke right? 1-1-1 is almost not being done any more, SC2 maps are becoming so big and so defensive that 1-1-1 hardly ever works any more. If anything we need the opposite to happen, maps become a bit more small or less defensive to encourage engagements and aggression to start earlier, not later. But one thing is for sure, toss don't need any help holding a 1-1-1, and we certainly don't need another stupid micro limiting ability. Wholeheartedly agreed. Maps are getting too big. We need bw like aggression where you can attack with few units and come out ahead dzw to superb multitasking, not a turtlefest on 3 or 2 bases.
Actually, this isn't even true in the way you describe it. The rush distance for Cloud Kingdom is around as long as it was for XNC (from what Superouman commented on once), Ohana is only slightly longer, Metropolis (I believe) is shorter than TDA - probably as long as Metalopolis cross and I think basically any new map is not terribly big.
(The maps are actually getting smaller again, compared to the most extreme examples: Terminus, TDA, Calm before the Storm)
What I think is changing, is map complexity. It's not just "a hole in the middle" anymore, or "control the watchtowers and you will see everything". Going straight to your opponent won't reveal every expansion anymore, while also covering every possible counterattack route. Pushing has become harder, positioning and map control is more important on the new maps, than it was before.
What you want (more small aggression) is not a question of map layout. It's a question of the amount of reinforcements compared to the amount of pushing units. Right now, such aggression is at least very hard to pull of - if not straight up dumb -, because one round of produced units is just so big, that your small attack group will get overwhealmed by it, so the timing window in which an attack force can be active without being reinforced is very small. (see Barrins thread about FRB 6m maps "Breadth of Gameplay")
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On April 18 2012 05:03 Tump wrote:
What you want (more small aggression) is not a question of map layout. It's a question of the amount of reinforcements compared to the amount of pushing units. Right now, such aggression is at least very hard to pull of - if not straight up dumb -, because one round of produced units is just so big, that your small attack group will get overwhealmed by it, so the timing window in which an attack force can be active without being reinforced is very small. (see Barrins thread about FRB 6m maps "Breadth of Gameplay")
While I think you make good points I don't think that 6m will be the solution. Yes, people will have fewer units to defend but also fewer units to attack, it doesn't really change anything(imho, I will take a greater look at this, I read the thread but not all of it.)
But you are right that it's not neccessarily only about map size, there are other factors as well. But these are either blizzard-dependant(nerfs/buffs/unit changes in general) or influenced by mapdesign.
My point was more about the fact that I want more viable aggression, not really about how it is achived.
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6m1g with some kind of shredder unit, and the zerg siege units, and perhaps something else than colossi = my dream expansion.
More bases and more units capable of holding strategic portions of the map is what this game needs!
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On April 18 2012 10:06 Reborn8u wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 08:24 lowercase wrote:
I still don't know how Swarm Hosts are supposed to do any damage whatsoever. They don't shoot a projectile, they produce a little unit! If you have a few swarm hosts and have them attack a big deathball/bioball, all the locusts will be killed before they get near and do no damage. At least with lurkers they served their function: sieged, ranged, AOE attack. Swarm host has only one of those features. It's not swarm hosts attacking a deathball, but being mixed in to the late game zerg death ball that I'm thinking about. Infestor, Broodlord, swarm host, with a few roaches mixed in, could be a problem. Imagine late game vs infinite free units, fungal, infested terrans, on top of the zerg remax speed. If you don't have an army that can smash them right then and there, you will slowly die to the infinite broodlings + fungal. Not to mention you will need your obs to see the swarm host (or anything else that's burrowed) but you will also have to keep the obs out of fungal range. I guess you could just nexus recall and try to build a deathball that can beat it heads up, but that's kind of what Blizzard said they wanted to move away from. It's hard to really theory craft about a game that's so far away, but thinking of how rough BL/infestor is now, I am scared of zerg having more free units and another spellcaster. Especially, if the swarm host comes out in the mid game and starts putting endless pressure on a Protoss trying to secure a 3rd.
I think the comforting fact should be how gas starved these units will make Zerg. Zerg can't really afford broodlord / infestor until he's on 4-5 bases, and he won't be able to afford a midgame infestor / viper / swarm host unless he's got an impressive gas economy and no real plans to play the corrupter / broodlord game.
I see swarm hosts being combined with ultralisks, personally, at least as far as money will allow. The upgrades will stack, the infestors (necessary) come out of the same tech tree, and the swarm hosts force an engage of sorts, it isn't like their going to go away on their own. That lets the Zerg set up a defensive offensive position, draw out the important tech units with the viper, and engage with charge ultras and lings.
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I don't think Shredder harass is such a problem. If anything, hellion drops are way more deadly and give a lot less warning before drones get fried.
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I just can't stand to MOVING BORROWED BANELINGS. For low league players is alrady hard to manage with damnation and now they're making it movable!!! I play T but i'm pretty shure i'll have to switch to Z...
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One hell of thing that Blizzard is not taking into account is that protoss lacks of detection.
Terran have scan that can scan anything, and raven is a good unit with a lots of skills.
Same goes for zerg that can have Any Overlord to have detection and they have cool skills too.
But Protoss he have to "waste" robo build time and above all observers can be sniped really easy (in TvP).
Its boring losing to invisible units, when terran can simply scan, and zerg can make multiple detection units all at once....
Don't u guys think that protoss lacks on detection/????
=/
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On April 18 2012 23:29 Doganaws wrote:
I just can't stand to MOVING BORROWED BANELINGS. For low league players is alrady hard to manage with damnation and now they're making it movable!!! I play T but i'm pretty shure i'll have to switch to Z...
Thats the only thing i like about all these unit previews... Everything else feels boring or downright stupid (swarmhost).
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On April 18 2012 23:34 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 23:29 Doganaws wrote:
I just can't stand to MOVING BORROWED BANELINGS. For low league players is alrady hard to manage with damnation and now they're making it movable!!! I play T but i'm pretty shure i'll have to switch to Z... Thats the only thing i like about all these unit previews... Everything else feels boring or downright stupid (swarmhost).
Pretty sure im opening a can of worms here but what the hell is stupid about the swarmhost? The way it's been shown right now it's basically a lurker mixed with a brood lord, a siege unit that provides area control. That's not stupid, that's great.
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On April 18 2012 18:35 YyapSsap wrote:
I cant see why blizzard cannot develop on the "idea/concept" of the shredder which I think is pretty interesting and how it brings back some of the dynamics that the spider mines from BW had on each matchups. If blizzard is reading this, here are some thoughts in improving the concept of the shredder.
-Shredders are used for zone control and hence naturally lead to map Control. Spider mines also did the same in BW although they were more of a one off thing since the mines can be cleared or used. The mines had very low hitpoints but the biggest factor in being able to give T the map control was its invisibility. This made the opposing players either risk going into enemy territory or force them to be passive and cautious. However the current shredder (from blizzcon) is a visible unit that has to do ridiculous amount of damage to both air and ground because the enemy knows where it is. Theres not much thought process in dealing with the shredder other than either getting rid of it in return for potential losses, or just avoid it all together. Theres no risk, reward or a way of clearing things out by investing in detector tech like with the spider mines.
Suggestion: Make the shredder "burrow" to the ground. Once an enemy unit becomes in range, it is activated, unburrows a potion of its head and starts radiating, dealing damage to ground units while in return exposing itself to be destroyed. Should not affect air units.
-Worker harass is probably the biggest thing that shutdown this concept. However there are ways to avoid that problem all together just like how spidermines worked against workers. They did not activate against workers because they hovered (vultures also did not trigger mines). The only time it would be triggered is when an enemy fighting unit was nearby. The shredder should follow a similiar concept.
Suggestion: Make the shredder only trigger to non-hover units (all workers should be considered to hover as they do). Hence even if they are placed in the mineral line, nothing will happen unless the enemy units move into the area of the shredder where it will trigger.
-Then we have the problem of when it triggers, what happens when friendly troops are inside the shredder range. I think this should be done similiar to what the spider mine did. It did not trigger when friendlies were nearby but it did when enemy troops were nearby. Not only that but it would still go off even if friendly troops were in the vicinity and cause friendly fire which is always entertaining to watch. So its like a double edge sword but if used correctly, it will be highly rewarded.
Suggestion: The shredder does not activate when friendly troops are nearby. BUT when enemy units come within the shredder range, it will activate itself and deal damage to friendly/enemy ground unit within the range of the shredder.
Ok what happens if other shredders are nearby? They aren't affected but damages in areas where it overlaps are multiplied. Makes it a ton lethal to not only the enemy but your friendly troops. You can see that now this is possible because now shredders can be effectively be removed by a detector + air units.
Its no different to spidermines? well they are suppose to fulfil similiar roles but because the shredder is a unit, it eats up your supply and probably cost alot more. However it is also more durable and last longer in controlling the area then spidermines. Can also be picked/dropped. I guess its a hybrid between a lurker and a spider mine which I think it would bring a rather interesting plays/tactics.
Just my 2cents..
I definitely agree and like some of your suggestions but I think Blizzard needs to be focusing on giving this kind of concept to Zerg or Protoss. They certainly need it more than Terran at the moment considering they don't have a single option for strong stationary map control like that of the tank.
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On April 18 2012 23:28 ArcticRaven wrote:
I don't think Shredder harass is such a problem. If anything, hellion drops are way more deadly and give a lot less warning before drones get fried.
Hellions also get cleaned up pretty easily and aren't too great against counter units like roaches (at least in small numbers).
The shredder would wipe out a mineral line and render it unusable until the player manages to get units to deal with it. For Zerg, a melee oriented race, that's pretty hard.
Zerg and Protoss would have to spend a significant amount of money protecting each mineral line from harassment, and that wasn't the purpose of the shredder, nor did Blizzard (I assume) want to have to balance the game with respect to Zerg / Protoss spending more on static defense.
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On April 18 2012 23:54 ThomasHobbes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 23:28 ArcticRaven wrote:
I don't think Shredder harass is such a problem. If anything, hellion drops are way more deadly and give a lot less warning before drones get fried. Hellions also get cleaned up pretty easily and aren't too great against counter units like roaches (at least in small numbers). The shredder would wipe out a mineral line and render it unusable until the player manages to get units to deal with it. For Zerg, a melee oriented race, that's pretty hard. Zerg and Protoss would have to spend a significant amount of money protecting each mineral line from harassment, and that wasn't the purpose of the shredder, nor did Blizzard (I assume) want to have to balance the game with respect to Zerg / Protoss spending more on static defense.
Well... The shredder costs a lot of time to build and it's from a factory. So this cuts down on tank production against Zerg which causes several problems. Therefore, the drop has to do damage and if zerg has good overlord placements or spinecrawlers/sporecrawlers in the base it should easily be averted.
Protoss do have a bigger problem with shredders, but when do you see the factory being used in TvP? Never. A marine drop will also be more effective since a warp in of Stalkers can fend of the shredder pretty easily while pulling awway probes.
I think that Blizzard has failed here, the shredder is a great unit that can give back some zone control, don't remove it or give back vultures.
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On April 18 2012 23:47 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2012 23:34 Velr wrote:On April 18 2012 23:29 Doganaws wrote:
I just can't stand to MOVING BORROWED BANELINGS. For low league players is alrady hard to manage with damnation and now they're making it movable!!! I play T but i'm pretty shure i'll have to switch to Z... Thats the only thing i like about all these unit previews... Everything else feels boring or downright stupid (swarmhost). Pretty sure im opening a can of worms here but what the hell is stupid about the swarmhost? The way it's been shown right now it's basically a lurker mixed with a brood lord, a siege unit that provides area control. That's not stupid, that's great.
I agree with Velr. Swarm Hosts are a fail from a game design perspective. They are like that Viper pull ability, a joke. Remember at Blizzcon how the audience laughed when Viper pulled that Collosus? If I was Dustin Browder I would have been so embarased.
Dustin its okay to quitt your job, making basketball no2 is no easy task. Its okay to admit defeat. Infact I dont blame Dustin so much, those other "creative" guys suck aswell. Only thing i resnt him for is being so stuborn and acting like a little offended girl when people ask him legitimate questions like: why dont they just "fix" the pathing rather than presenting these ridiculous workarounds like units not working in proximity to friendly units.
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