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Shiladie
Canada1631 Posts
On April 19 2012 03:23 IMoperator wrote: give terran some viable t3 plz blizzard. Marines, you just get your T3 earlier than anyone else... in seriousness though, I agree that some better T3 for terran will encourage more diversity in late game play | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:26 Plansix wrote: It would be awesome if they did a battle report, but let pros play the game. Hell, a live beta show match would be the best if the pros had access to play before hand. With a $1000 dollar incentive anyone? | ||
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Rumpus
United States136 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:33 Shiladie wrote: Marines, you just get your T3 earlier than anyone else... in seriousness though, I agree that some better T3 for terran will encourage more diversity in late game play I still feel like all the chatter about T3 for Terran and Protoss is merely a byproduct of how the game plays out before they get to these points in tech. I think Carriers could use a small number juggling and definitely given the potential for serious micro exploitation but other than that, the unit, as well as Battle-cruisers, are fine. The problem with these Tier 3 units is what comes before them. T1 - T1.5 units are doing too much damage, too quickly, for too little a cost. "Terrible, Terrible Damage" is to blame for this, who is going to spend the time getting the economy, the time teching and saving for these expensive units, and the time getting them out on the field in a number to be effective while they are left more vulnerable or weaker than their opponent? An opponent that can be making a sum of Stalkers, or Marauders at a very high rate. Tech, save, and produce 3 Battle-cruisers, or just go make 10 Marines that will counter it, or 6 Vikings or some other unit that can be made very quickly and allows you to hit faster and be very effective against these T3 units. Obviously those numbers are arbitrary but those units come out way faster, way cheaper, and with far more utility, T3 isn't justifying their price tags' in relation to the units before them. And I really don't think buffing them into oblivion will fix anything. The lower tier units need to be toned down, or things like FRB are potential answers for this problem. | ||
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GinDo
3327 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:33 Shiladie wrote: Marines, you just get your T3 earlier than anyone else... in seriousness though, I agree that some better T3 for terran will encourage more diversity in late game play Well, personally I feel that the BC is fine for the most part. The only issue with the BC is the fact that it gets crapped on by Vikings in TvT, Because the only way for Terrant to beat Vikings with tanks under them is by more Vikings or tons of supply heavy thors. Maybe a barrage ability for the BC? But I personally would prefer a redesign for the viking. Ravens are another unit that is a good idea, but has to many issues. To many upgrades, slow as hell, crappy range for an OP missile the stacks. This unit is simply bad design. Thors shuts down mutas to hard and overall, is a boring unit. Good, but boring. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10668 Posts
On April 18 2012 23:47 Fragile51 wrote: Pretty sure im opening a can of worms here but what the hell is stupid about the swarmhost? The way it's been shown right now it's basically a lurker mixed with a brood lord, a siege unit that provides area control. That's not stupid, that's great. It's a burrowed unit that just sits there and spawns free "super-zerglings" or whatever you want to call them. I think the whole idea of such a unit is bad and i really can't understand why anyone would be excited about such a thing. All it does is sitting there, cloaked, sending waves of free units at your enemy... I woud actually like it more when these untis would cost something because then you could actually make them pretty strong whiteout overpricing the Swarmhost itself... It has absolutely nothing to do with a Lurker except that it also needs to burrow itself... It has some similarities to a Brood Lord... WHICH IS ALLREADY IN GAME AND WORKING EXTREMLY (probably even too) GOOD. Btw: It also kinda overlaps with infested terrans... Which i also would call "questionable" (not the idea of an infested terran, but the way it's created). | ||
Falling
Canada11343 Posts
On April 19 2012 04:23 wankey wrote: My problem with marauders is that they are a bit too good at everything they do. IMO, a good nerf to them is basically make their regular damage 5, and their + armored damage to +15 so at the end of the day, they still do the same 20 to armored but only 5 to regular, meaning you need marines in your bioball to keep up the DPS. Also, buildings should have armored affix removed from them, and only defensive / offensive buildings should have armored + hatcheries. Production buildings and research buildings shouldn't be armored. IMO, they really need to do something about the colossus. I feel like the design for that unit is basically nill. There is no micro for that unit, and there really isn't much gameplay other than fast clicking a-move or orb walking it. Honestly the Marauder could just go. What is it really? A Marine that's bigger and tankier. It's not an exciting unit and it's far too good at sniping higher tech stuff because it can shrug off damage. Plus concussion is a passive upgrade that prevents micro and without the Terran player having to do anything. I've heard it argued that even if Blizzard wanted to, a unit like the Lurker couldn't exist in SC2 because of the Maurader. Stim, tank the damage and snipe. Probably that's why they're going for the swarm lord because the only thing that prevents the snipe is throwing a whole bunch of garbage in front so you can't get to it similar to the Broodlord. Losing the marauder might create a hole in the terran army, but it's a hole that can then be filled by something more interesting. | ||
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Fig
United States1324 Posts
On April 19 2012 04:27 hugman wrote: I wish Blizzard would get more serious about addressing the deathball issue. The most effective way to use units shouldn't be to clump them as much as possible. We need more positional play or something. Bring back Khaydarin amulet and buff storm so bioballs straight up don't work lategame, and then give Terran new tools to deal with it. The deathball exists primarily because of the weakness of one of the strongest Protoss units: the colossus. It has super strong ground splash damage, and is rather mobile for what it does. A unit like this needs to have some kind of weakness. The design team decided it's weakness is that it can be hit by anti-air attacks. This means that any colossi MUST be accompanied by units that can kill vikings/corruptors, AKA stalkers. Alright, so here's the beginning of the deathball. Now the terran needs to protect the vikings, so they make marauders. Stalkers get eaten alive by marauders, and so do colossi for that matter. So we need to throw in a bunch of zealots to tank the marauder damage and create a buffer zone. This goes back and forth, and ends up creating two deathballs. Just to show the difference, not saying that BW is better or whatever, imagine you have a reaver instead of a colossus. Obviously reavers have their own weakness: mobility. But that can be solved with a dropship, or by placing them at bases for added defense. When the unit that is the main source of your DPS, must be protected from every kind of attack, it creates a death ball. And the only way to beat a death ball head on, is with another death ball. | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
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oxxo
988 Posts
On April 19 2012 07:07 Falling wrote: Honestly the Marauder could just go. What is it really? A Marine that's bigger and tankier. It's not an exciting unit and it's far too good at sniping higher tech stuff because it can shrug off damage. Plus concussion is a passive upgrade that prevents micro and without the Terran player having to do anything. I've heard it argued that even if Blizzard wanted to, a unit like the Lurker couldn't exist in SC2 because of the Maurader. Stim, tank the damage and snipe. Probably that's why they're going for the swarm lord because the only thing that prevents the snipe is throwing a whole bunch of garbage in front so you can't get to it similar to the Broodlord. Losing the marauder might create a hole in the terran army, but it's a hole that can then be filled by something more interesting. Marauder, immortal, and roach shouldn't have made it out of beta. It seems like they were just kept in because Browder thought they were 'cool' units. | ||
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
Toss just really need to lose the Colossus, all their other units are actually really good, just make it a fucking Reaver, and the race is fixed. Terran need more mech options, which is what Blizzard are trying to give them, I'm just afraid they will make factory units more and more similar to bio, instead of making them more unique. In fact, simple solutions: Give Zerg the swarm host, and make the corruptor interesting (maybe scourge? I dunno) Give Toss the reaver instead of the Colouss, and fix carrier acceleration so it can micro Make the thor's central air shot (not the splash around it) more highly damaging against armoured (so brood lords, carriers, BCs don't COMPLETELY destroy them0. This will make mech better vs Zerg and Terran (the BL/BC switch isn't so insanely insta win). To the guy below me: On April 19 2012 07:30 Darksoldierr wrote: Yea i really dont feel the Swarm Host, i mean 2 broodling like unit wont do shit / unit in a big deathball fight. I can see their idea of harassing etc, but Infestor ten times better for that or else they need to make the broodlings so strong that it just makes the unit plain op I really dont think so unit like this has place in the current sc2 armies. If you dont do instant dmg, you wont be needed, the battle already ending lot faster than in BW I disagree that infestors will be better, we've heard from Zerg pros that they have trouble pressuring in the midgame, because everything they have is so close ranged, all aggression is completely committed. The swarm host allows you to pressure walloffs, expansions, etc, without completely commiting (just like drop play from terran, tanks can, blink allows you to for Toss) but the good bit is that, as you said, it won't really be that useful in the deathball, which is a good thing for Starcraft 2 to have. I actually really like the unit, assuming it works near to how it is planned. | ||
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
On April 19 2012 07:13 CruelZeratul wrote: What I don't get is how the Swam Host is supposed to do damage to an all ranged army. You either need a lot of them, or they have to come out so fast that the enemies army can't be to big already. Yea i really dont feel the Swarm Host, i mean 2 broodling like unit wont do shit / unit in a big deathball fight. I can see their idea of harassing etc, but Infestor ten times better for that or else they need to make the broodlings so strong that it just makes the unit plain op I really dont think so unit like this has place in the current sc2 armies. If you dont do instant dmg, you wont be needed, the usual end game battle already ending lot faster than in BW Funny, actually in BW i could imagine them since theres lot more front lines and battle happening but in sc2, it all comes down to deathballs | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 19 2012 07:23 oxxo wrote: Marauder, immortal, and roach shouldn't have made it out of beta. It seems like they were just kept in because Browder thought they were 'cool' units. You mean the 3 of 4 (stalker) units that basically made splash damage possible in a game with SC2 AI and pathing. If they would remove them, they would have to remove tanks, HT and Colossi (and resulting from that Infestors and Banelings as well), because everyone would just be able to rush them and never ever lose against any ground composition anymore. | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On April 19 2012 06:57 Velr wrote: It's a burrowed unit that just sits there and spawns free "super-zerglings" or whatever you want to call them. I think the whole idea of such a unit is bad and i really can't understand why anyone would be excited about such a thing. All it does is sitting there, cloaked, sending waves of free units at your enemy... I woud actually like it more when these untis would cost something because then you could actually make them pretty strong whiteout overpricing the Swarmhost itself... It has absolutely nothing to do with a Lurker except that it also needs to burrow itself... It has some similarities to a Brood Lord... WHICH IS ALLREADY IN GAME AND WORKING EXTREMLY (probably even too) GOOD. Btw: It also kinda overlaps with infested terrans... Which i also would call "questionable" (not the idea of an infested terran, but the way it's created). theres nothing stupid about the unit. just about EVERYONE that hates on this unit that i have seen always compares it to lurker and just want lurker back. seriously ppl... if u want to compare it to something then use ur brains and compare it to broodlords. it has nothing to do with a lurker. a ground base broodlord in mid game is actually pretty damn good, especially considering it can double as a expansion harassment that will do quite alot of things to that expansion if not dealt with promptly. i can see a ton of usefulness for this unit in the mid game, specifically in TvZ. marine tank pushes will no longer be nearly as effective because terran will not be able to slowly push towards zerg at all. set a few of these things down, let them spawn infinitly, and seige tanks will be constantly firing on there own units all while the locsts are tearing apart anything in there way. back up with lings/banelings i dont even see a way of terran being able to properly push zerg at all tbh. having units that cost no supply, no gas, no minerals, no energy is ALWAYS beneficial because u dont have to waste ur main army. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On April 19 2012 07:34 Big J wrote: You mean the 3 of 4 (stalker) units that basically made splash damage possible in a game with SC2 AI and pathing. If they would remove them, they would have to remove tanks, HT and Colossi (and resulting from that Infestors and Banelings as well), because everyone would just be able to rush them and never ever lose against any ground composition anymore. That's not completely true, marine+tank functions quite well as a counter to banelings for example. However, there is no way that Blizzard designed the game around marine-splitting techniques, since obviously they're a later invention, and I'm quite sure they expected the marauder to be part of the answer to certain splash damage scenarios facing bio compositions. Even at this point in time, where pros have gotten incredibly good at bio control I think it's inconceivable to remove the marauder given how potent storm and colossi are. One missed EMP would mean death to your bio units no matter how good your splitting. Blizzard would have to change splash damage attacks so much it would probably reduce diversity in the game. One possible solution to this could be to change the pathfinding, which Blizzard has said they are not willing to do. Removing splash attacks also seems to remove diversity and promote death ball play; leaving redesigning units like the marauder to be more 'fun' as the only suitable option that I can see. I will say though, that it's really hard to imagine a world where Blizzard would have drastically changed the marauder or immortal in beta, no matter the complaints, since both of them function as a counter (tanks, high templar) to units that reduced diversity in compositions in Brood War. TvP always ended up with mech play in Brood War precisely because there was no good counter to siege tanks and to psi storms(for bio). | ||
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aeroblaster
United States422 Posts
t's a burrowed unit that just sits there and spawns free "super-zerglings" or whatever you want to call them. I think the whole idea of such a unit is bad and i really can't understand why anyone would be excited about such a thing. All it does is sitting there, cloaked, sending waves of free units at your enemy... I woud actually like it more when these untis would cost something because then you could actually make them pretty strong whiteout overpricing the Swarmhost itself... It has absolutely nothing to do with a Lurker except that it also needs to burrow itself... It has some similarities to a Brood Lord... WHICH IS ALLREADY IN GAME AND WORKING EXTREMLY (probably even too) GOOD. Btw: It also kinda overlaps with infested terrans... Which i also would call "questionable" (not the idea of an infested terran, but the way it's created). I think people are just failing to understand that the Swarmhost is supposed to be the Zerg version of the Siege tank. Brood Lords fit that role nicely, but they come out far too late to be used in those earlier game fights. The Siege tank is boring too, it just sits there and auto attacks a 13 range anti ground insta psi storm every 3 seconds right? No. The Siege tank is interesting cause it transforms and can be mobile with high range and dps. Again, Zerg gets the short end of the stick on that one. At least the benefit is that burrowed Swarmhosts can't be attacked without detection, but Terran gets scan before their factory is even up anyway. Okay, sorry. Got sidetracked. The purpose of the Swarmhost is to be the Zerg Siege tank, allowing you to attack siege lines without trading your entire army, and have exciting battles earlier in the game before Brood Lords come out. I'd love to see the day when Terrans run all their stuff into the Zerg army to kill it instead of the other way around. And the Viper will hopefully fix bio being op vs zerg. Poor Protoss doesn't have an answer to bio... well it does but 3/3 marines with medivacs beat my chargelot/high templar/colossus army once and it made me steaming mad. I hope they change the Thor's stats or something if they're thinking of keeping it. Make it anti-mech like that Warhound that they're going to scrap maybe. A reduction in power with +speed and +atk vs mech would be nice. The Thor is so bad. The Warhound be a nice replacement rather than moving Thor stats around. Also, I hope they don't screw over the Ultra with the new stat changes. The Raven needs a redesign. The unit is way op, but super weak at the same time. They should balance that. Bah this ended up being a stupid rant by me. Whatever, I just hope the game becomes more balanced. Zerg becoming op enough to fight evenly with Terran will be enough to satisfy. Poor Protoss will have to wait so long. At least they're kinda ez already. Notice how in HotS blizzard is filling the gaps? Zerg gets lair tech (Tier 2) siege unit and flying spell caster support unit. Swarm host and Viper. Protoss gets late game (Tier 3) siege unit and flying spell caster support unit. Tempest and Oracle. Terran gets early game unit that counters everything. Oh wait, that's all their units. New Hellion and Warhound. | ||
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Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
so on the defense, just have them behind your spines, when the enemy clears your creep, the locusts will still give you information about the enemy army, slow it down possibly, and reinforce your defense when you decide to fight or the enemy arrives at your spines. on the offense, just send some locusts into the location you plan to attack, is the area not well defended, rush in with lings, if it is, assess the situation, either retreat, or send in more locusts to keep the enemy busy while your other units attack elsewhere or you reinforced to the point where you feel confident to attack... and if nothing happens, but you want to check a watchtower, you do not need to sacrifice a single zergling, just have some locusts go there ~~ ofc i do not know how it will play out, but they seem useful for some situations in the midgame at least. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10668 Posts
On April 19 2012 07:40 Ballistixz wrote: theres nothing stupid about the unit. just about EVERYONE that hates on this unit that i have seen always compares it to lurker and just want lurker back. seriously ppl... if u want to compare it to something then use ur brains and compare it to broodlords. it has nothing to do with a lurker. a ground base broodlord in mid game is actually pretty damn good, especially considering it can double as a expansion harassment that will do quite alot of things to that expansion if not dealt with promptly. i can see a ton of usefulness for this unit in the mid game, specifically in TvZ. marine tank pushes will no longer be nearly as effective because terran will not be able to slowly push towards zerg at all. set a few of these things down, let them spawn infinitly, and seige tanks will be constantly firing on there own units all while the locsts are tearing apart anything in there way. back up with lings/banelings i dont even see a way of terran being able to properly push zerg at all tbh. having units that cost no supply, no gas, no minerals, no energy is ALWAYS beneficial because u dont have to waste ur main army. The Lurker comparison did not come from me, but yes, you are right.. It's a dire insult to the Lurker to compare it to this "burrowd spawning pool of BORING". I can also see a ton of uses for the Swarmhost.. And? I can also see ton of uses for a Mammoth Tank (or does the Thor count as this?) and plenty of other Units.... I still don't want them in SC2. My baseline is: FREE untis in an RTS are not a good concept. I'm absolutely disgusted by Mules and the guy that invented them, and pretty much everyone involved into allowing them into the finnished game, should never be allowed to touch another game again. I would prefere truly high DMG Broodlords over the Meathshield-Cannons we got now (low numbers of broods should allready be dangerous cause of their DPS, but it should be no problem to take them out if they are left alone because they can't hide behind a wall of broodlings). I would prefer some true infested Terrans that have to be somehow built (or converted directly from enemy units). I would prefer the Reaver to the Swarmhost.... Btw: Those two untis actually strike me as pretty similar, except that the Swarmhost isn't exciting because instead small bombs of doom he spawns... big Zerglings?... Yay -.-.... The Swarmhost throwing Banelings could actually be pretty cool... | ||
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ssg
United States1770 Posts
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pedduck
Thailand468 Posts
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HeroMystic
United States1217 Posts
On April 19 2012 07:23 oxxo wrote: Marauder, immortal, and roach shouldn't have made it out of beta. It seems like they were just kept in because Browder thought they were 'cool' units. The Roach is fine I'd say, and as a Terran I'd be fine without the Marauder, but Immortal is just a horribly designed unit that was specifically meant to take out Tanks. There's literally no other reason why that unit was created. | ||
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