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Developers Update : Heart of the Swarm - Page 89

Forum Index > SC2 General
1844 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 87 88 89 90 91 93 Next
The_DarkAngelz
Profile Joined April 2010
Brazil221 Posts
April 19 2012 15:01 GMT
#1761
On April 19 2012 23:56 nvs. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2012 23:53 bhfberserk wrote:
I hope blizz really over haul the entire SC2. From DPS, strats, everything. so that there is more micro play. instead of deathball strategy.


They won't. They will just add a few cool looking units and cross their fingers I think.

That's silly...

most people that i know that does not play anymore said that the problem is the unit's dps, some battles ends ins matter of seconds, too bad
=/
CruelZeratul
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany4588 Posts
April 19 2012 15:08 GMT
#1762
It's more unit AI and pathfinding than to much DPS what makes the fights so short. A tankline in BW would obliterate everything in seconds if an army as clumped up as a SC2 army would show up.
hugman
Profile Joined June 2009
Sweden4644 Posts
April 19 2012 15:13 GMT
#1763
Oh god, SC2 without Roaches, Colossi and Marauders.
That would be something to behold.
NukeD
Profile Joined October 2010
Croatia1612 Posts
April 19 2012 15:14 GMT
#1764
On April 19 2012 23:56 nvs. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2012 23:53 bhfberserk wrote:
I hope blizz really over haul the entire SC2. From DPS, strats, everything. so that there is more micro play. instead of deathball strategy.


They won't. They will just add a few cool looking units and cross their fingers I think.


But if they add a decent Custom game interface we might see a user made version of SC2. Especially because they will integrate 3D Studio Max and that should help a ton with gettin your ideas out into the game. I think there are a lot of people with very cool ideas that should be tried out.
sorry for dem one liners
therockmanxx
Profile Joined July 2010
Peru1174 Posts
April 19 2012 15:21 GMT
#1765
Yeah lets just remove all the new units added in sc2 !! lol
I still think that after legacy of the void, the game would be awesome...ish
But we are still far from that
In the meantime lets just complain about the game and how to make that happen haha
Tekken ProGamer
Falcor
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada894 Posts
April 19 2012 15:23 GMT
#1766
On April 20 2012 00:14 NukeD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2012 23:56 nvs. wrote:
On April 19 2012 23:53 bhfberserk wrote:
I hope blizz really over haul the entire SC2. From DPS, strats, everything. so that there is more micro play. instead of deathball strategy.


They won't. They will just add a few cool looking units and cross their fingers I think.


But if they add a decent Custom game interface we might see a user made version of SC2. Especially because they will integrate 3D Studio Max and that should help a ton with gettin your ideas out into the game. I think there are a lot of people with very cool ideas that should be tried out.


All that would do is split the community for what custom they prefer. Which would leave the community divided like cd 1.6 and css
Endymion
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
United States3701 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-19 15:53:40
April 19 2012 15:49 GMT
#1767
blizzard needs to bring back stepps of war and incineration zone (also the old high temple so that terrans can drop thors on the cliff)

also, you want to get rid of ball vs ball combat? here's the fix, make every AoE ability do the same damage to friendly targets too.. (baneling chain reactions, hellions must be in the front, fungal hits your own unit, just imagine zvz with friendly fire, it would make it so fun)
Have you considered the MMO-Champion forum? You are just as irrational and delusional with the right portion of nostalgic populism. By the way: The old Brood War was absolutely unplayable
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 19 2012 16:55 GMT
#1768
On April 19 2012 23:24 HeroMystic wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2012 22:45 Big J wrote:
On April 19 2012 21:57 HeroMystic wrote:
On April 19 2012 17:53 Big J wrote:
On April 19 2012 17:25 di3alot wrote:
On April 19 2012 17:09 HeroMystic wrote:
On April 19 2012 07:23 oxxo wrote:
On April 19 2012 07:07 Falling wrote:
On April 19 2012 04:23 wankey wrote:
My problem with marauders is that they are a bit too good at everything they do. IMO, a good nerf to them is basically make their regular damage 5, and their + armored damage to +15 so at the end of the day, they still do the same 20 to armored but only 5 to regular, meaning you need marines in your bioball to keep up the DPS.

Also, buildings should have armored affix removed from them, and only defensive / offensive buildings should have armored + hatcheries. Production buildings and research buildings shouldn't be armored.

IMO, they really need to do something about the colossus. I feel like the design for that unit is basically nill. There is no micro for that unit, and there really isn't much gameplay other than fast clicking a-move or orb walking it.

Honestly the Marauder could just go. What is it really? A Marine that's bigger and tankier. It's not an exciting unit and it's far too good at sniping higher tech stuff because it can shrug off damage. Plus concussion is a passive upgrade that prevents micro and without the Terran player having to do anything.

I've heard it argued that even if Blizzard wanted to, a unit like the Lurker couldn't exist in SC2 because of the Maurader. Stim, tank the damage and snipe. Probably that's why they're going for the swarm lord because the only thing that prevents the snipe is throwing a whole bunch of garbage in front so you can't get to it similar to the Broodlord.

Losing the marauder might create a hole in the terran army, but it's a hole that can then be filled by something more interesting.


Marauder, immortal, and roach shouldn't have made it out of beta. It seems like they were just kept in because Browder thought they were 'cool' units.


The Roach is fine I'd say, and as a Terran I'd be fine without the Marauder, but Immortal is just a horribly designed unit that was specifically meant to take out Tanks. There's literally no other reason why that unit was created.


actually the immortal was designed to be a tanking unit "range 5 front row"
and because of the high dps in sc2 this never happend
so now its just a burst unit that does shit vs light units and rapes armored units


Actually, this is exactly what it does right now, only from a range of 6. If it wasn't for hardened shields, the Immortal would be a pretty bad unit vs units like tanks (-80% damage), roaches (-37,5% damage), Thors (-66,6% damage), Marauders (-50% damage) and probably even Colossi (-33,3%damage).
Yeah, there is probably too much emphasis on the burst damage and it might have been better if they had designed the Immortal kind of like 25+15 or 30+10, but I don't think this matters too much, as their antiarmored damage would still rock pretty hard. Also it still does decently costwise against a couple of light units when they are left on their own against immortals (hellions, hydralisks, ghosts, sentries).
Right now, I'm rather of the opinion that the Immortal is one of those units that is just too good for it's costs with too little drawbacks, but the small production capabilities of robos make this bareable. But the outcome is, that instead of the intented role as a frontline dragoon, the immortal has become a unit that is always worth protecting it, but never appears in the amounts it was intended to be played (-->designed as a gateway unit).


The problem with the Immortal is it's use is extremely specific. Disregarding what Blizzard wanted to do with the Immortal, it's greatest strength is handling powerful burst damage. This only comes from Tanks(Terran) and Banelings(Zerg), but who in the world would use Banelings against Immortals anyway? Even without hardened shields it's cost inefficient.

So the Immortal's hardened shields really only matter against tanks, and even then, ever since the Tank damage nerf, Zealots are a far more cost efficient unit to tank damage, especially once they get Charge, and when combined with Zealots and Stalkers, all that really matters is that +30 damage to armored. The Immortal would be better if there were still Vultures from BW, so the Immortal's shields can just walk through a minefield like it was going on a picnic.

If there was a light-armored DPS Mech unit, Mech would be able to be played very well, but then that'd make the Immortal's worth that much lower.


Maybe I'm wrong and people will just laugh about armor upgrades one day in the future, but right now people invest a ton of money and time in the game to get a 1 damage reduction on their units. The Immortal has a 6damage reduction vs roaches (as an example) on its first 100HP. I can't see how this is not a crucial ability.
Of course it's not "hey look, I'm invincible", but it's 60damage that is being blocked. Even if the Immortal only had 20+2 damage (so all it's stats would be basically 2*stalker), it would still be much better to get an immortal vs roaches, than two stalkers. Of course the damage of a unit is a key stat, but hardened shields are really good against most things as well.


You're right, but your example is too situational as well. When Protoss is going up against roaches, at the beginning of the game, the Immortal's hardened shields is favorable, but at the same time it doesn't make up for the fact that the Immortal cannot be massed, which is very unlike Stalkers -and- Zealots.

Not only can the Immortal not be warped in via Gateway, but Zealots are actually stronger tanks if only because they can be massed, but it's not only that. It's also because they're good tanks on almost anything that isn't powerful vs Light units (Hellions, Banelings), and they get the strongest benefit out of Sentry's guardian shield. In the mid game the Immortal's hardened shield stops to matter because there's simply too many roaches for it to really matter, not to mention the Hydras as well (which nullifies Zealots pretty hard as well). At that point Range(Colossus) and mobility(Stalker) matters more, which is something the Immortal lacks.


The main "problem" with the immortal is that they cost a mint. For the same price and supply as one immortal and a sentry, a protoss player could have a colossi(excluding the cost of the support bay). Immortals are bad ass when you have them, but losing four of them is almost like losing two or three colossi. That with them being super slow and bad at fighting pure mineral units(zealots, lings and marines), they are more of a risk early in the game. They are an awesome unit, but their burst damage is only so effective.

I was suprised they were not getting some sort of upgrade option in HotS, but they may be a lower risk with the nexus recall ability. I would like to see more immortals and stargate play out of my protoss, they just need to make the units worth their crazy build times.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Coolness53
Profile Joined April 2010
United States668 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-19 17:43:03
April 19 2012 17:42 GMT
#1769
I just can't wait to see what beta does with the new units. I am not going to make assumptions about the new units until we can get our hands on them. They can change so much before we even get to beta.
Fruitdealer, DongRaeGu, and Soulkey
Ameisenmann
Profile Joined April 2012
Albania296 Posts
April 20 2012 09:22 GMT
#1770
On April 20 2012 00:49 Endymion wrote:
blizzard needs to bring back stepps of war and incineration zone (also the old high temple so that terrans can drop thors on the cliff)

also, you want to get rid of ball vs ball combat? here's the fix, make every AoE ability do the same damage to friendly targets too.. (baneling chain reactions, hellions must be in the front, fungal hits your own unit, just imagine zvz with friendly fire, it would make it so fun)

Imagine TvZ with those changes, it would be an absolute nightmare
Euronyme
Profile Joined August 2010
Sweden3804 Posts
April 20 2012 09:34 GMT
#1771
On April 20 2012 00:49 Endymion wrote:
blizzard needs to bring back stepps of war and incineration zone (also the old high temple so that terrans can drop thors on the cliff)

also, you want to get rid of ball vs ball combat? here's the fix, make every AoE ability do the same damage to friendly targets too.. (baneling chain reactions, hellions must be in the front, fungal hits your own unit, just imagine zvz with friendly fire, it would make it so fun)


That would just result in those units not being used. In the case of infestors it doesn't really matter, as you cast them in a fashion that doesn't hit your own units anyway.
You usually fungal, and then run in with your shit.

Apart from that, it'd probably just result in units not being used. I don't think anyone would risk having a zergling baneling ball, in case a ghost would snipe off a baneling and set off the fireworks :/

Pretty cool idea though. I'd like to see a couple of pro games with funky mods. More TL attacks!
I bet i can maı̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̸̨̨̨̨̨̨ke you wipe your screen.
Zaphid
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Czech Republic1860 Posts
April 20 2012 09:42 GMT
#1772
On April 20 2012 00:49 Endymion wrote:


also, you want to get rid of ball vs ball combat? here's the fix, make every AoE ability do the same damage to friendly targets too.. (baneling chain reactions, hellions must be in the front, fungal hits your own unit, just imagine zvz with friendly fire, it would make it so fun)

That would be glorious
I will never ever play Mech against Protoss. - MVP
OkStyX
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
Canada1199 Posts
April 20 2012 09:55 GMT
#1773
On April 20 2012 18:42 Zaphid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 20 2012 00:49 Endymion wrote:


also, you want to get rid of ball vs ball combat? here's the fix, make every AoE ability do the same damage to friendly targets too.. (baneling chain reactions, hellions must be in the front, fungal hits your own unit, just imagine zvz with friendly fire, it would make it so fun)

That would be glorious


that would be super dumb. ZvZ would be a shit show early game
Team Overklocked Gaming! That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested this claim. - G.C. Lichtenberg
FeyFey
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany10114 Posts
April 20 2012 10:13 GMT
#1774
On April 20 2012 00:08 CruelZeratul wrote:
It's more unit AI and pathfinding than to much DPS what makes the fights so short. A tankline in BW would obliterate everything in seconds if an army as clumped up as a SC2 army would show up.


yeah when people talk about stopped playing because armies dieing in seconds, they actually mean they are not good enough to play the game, at the level they want to play it.
In Bw in TvZ 1/3 of the zerg army died before the engagement. And while your army didn't formed a ball when moving over the map, they formed a line and if you meet some marines on the way it looked pretty funny how your units died one by one.

Not moving around in a deathball is pretty simply i must say, though its a bit harder then in bw. But moving around as a deathball in bw was way harder on the other hand.

But the dps really isn't the problem, the dps is actually way lower then in bw and units have more hp. But sc2 makes up for the bad dps, with smartfire and autosurround, which does increase effectiveness of instant hit ranged units and melee, but is horrible for projectile units fireing at the same time.
You could really see from the beta, that they wanted people to use magic boxing everywhere, they didn't and Blizzard adjusted the game to this by changing up almost all aoes.
ymir233
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States8275 Posts
April 20 2012 10:37 GMT
#1775
Rush vipers into troll enemy by eating one from each mineral of the bases near the opponent so they can't harvest
Come motivate me to be cynical about animus at http://infinityandone.blogspot.com/ // Stork proxy gates are beautiful.
tsango
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia214 Posts
April 20 2012 11:05 GMT
#1776
As a toss player im not too sad to be losing the replicant - with its planned cost of 200/200 the only time i'd have used it would be to make a siege tank to defend a 1-1-1 on a fast expand build (which wouldve been awesome) but that aside its cost really never felt warranted. Change of design on the tempest was the right choice too - its filling the aerial siege niche that the carrier probably should have but didnt.

Generally speaking though i feel they shouldnt be trying too hard to create units which are designed overly specifically to fill a niche role, What makes starcraft great is the meta game shifting and people discovering new and unique ways to use units. I'm a firm believer that as long as units are competitive on cost and the game is properly balanced, the players will always look for new cool ways to use the units made available (i certainly will)
If you dont like something, then that should be reason enough to try and change it
algue
Profile Joined July 2011
France1436 Posts
April 20 2012 11:15 GMT
#1777
Good news that the replicant is out !
When you a
rly ?
Cirqueenflex
Profile Joined October 2010
499 Posts
April 20 2012 11:22 GMT
#1778
On April 20 2012 20:05 tsango wrote:
As a toss player im not too sad to be losing the replicant - with its planned cost of 200/200 the only time i'd have used it would be to make a siege tank to defend a 1-1-1 on a fast expand build (which wouldve been awesome) but that aside its cost really never felt warranted. Change of design on the tempest was the right choice too - its filling the aerial siege niche that the carrier probably should have but didnt.


In PvZ, the zerg would just not be able to go infestor ling (+bling), since one replicant as an infestor could take out most of the zerglings (+banelings) with two fungals. Even against roaches, protoss having infestors would kinda shut down a lot for the zerg, thus zerg would not build infestors (maybe until they have brood lords, maybe never).
Give a man a fire, you keep him warm for a night. Set a man on fire, and you keep him warm for the rest of his life.
Garmer
Profile Joined October 2010
1286 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-04-20 11:45:57
April 20 2012 11:43 GMT
#1779
On April 19 2012 23:27 0neder wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 19 2012 21:11 Garmer wrote:
On April 19 2012 17:36 Haze.884 wrote:
I really want marauders and collosus to be gone at hots...

those 2 units create really boring match ups -.-


add roach to this

3 boring units that ruin the game for me

"The Two Others Dragons"(Roach and Marauders), Colossus.

I agree the roach is meh in it's current state, but that burrow regen/move is cool. I'd axe marauders, colossus, and then make roaches one supply again and adjust stats accordingly. Zerg needs more quantity of units in their army (besides lings). This would help that. I would also eliminate combat shield. Marines need a weakness. Their dps and mobility is good enough.


I agree absolutely with this, in fact I wished that they maintained the beta-roach in the final version, instead of making a "second marauder/stalker"
Destroyr
Profile Joined November 2011
Germany299 Posts
April 20 2012 11:46 GMT
#1780
On April 19 2012 21:20 Seiniyta wrote:
The roach with burrowing movement is good, I don't think the Roach needs to go. The Marauder ehh, either they remove it's concussive shells and give it something more interesting. (maybe a concussive missle which has a 3 range where there's some aoe slowing going on, but like storm you could slow yourself if you miss) Or just replace it altogether.

The collossus either needs to go, or I want a abilty where it can detach the head and crash like a giant baneling againt air units causing massive air AOE splash damage that kills muta's.


The roach is a stupid unit... it has such low costs... and is so massable for a fact if you go vs toss on two base and you are on three and he hasnt killed you before 10-11 minutes... how will he win when your 200/200 roach army apprears...

On the other hand zvz is so much fun. So fast games and you can micro vs your opponent... but if i play a muta centric style and he goes 3rd base... and just a moves roaches... its pretty sad that your opponent doesnt have to invest any micro (except hitting some fungals or dropping some infested Ts) to kill you when you are apming the shit out of the game... its really just sad.

Roach is a stupid unit.
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