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On April 12 2012 06:24 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:20 R0YAL wrote:
Please give me your insight on why it is a good unit. It is one of my least favorite barring the two that they already scrapped. The Swarm Host literally serves no purpose other than parking it outside of the opponents base so it can spawn one beetle that is somehow more durable than a Hydralisk. It's not dynamic whatsoever. What else do you do with it? Because it gives Zerg the badly needed mid-tech to actually force a turtling Terran or Protoss to do something. There's a reason why ZvX games devolve into a huge passive midgame until Broodlord tech hits, and that's because there was no way to pressure a wall without suiciding a huge army into it.
But why is this a problem? Zerg is at an advantage if they're not being pressured at all. As a Protoss player (can't speak for Terrans, but most I ask seem to agree) I'm constantly looking for opportunities to pressure the Zerg and delay that Hive as much as possible. If you're now telling me I'm not even going to be able to do this while taking a third base reliably, then how exactly is Protoss (or Terran) ever going to be on even footing once the BLs come out, since the Hive could feasibly be much earlier?
Is it not enough that Zerg has a stranglehold on map control for the early portions of the game? Is it not enough that the onus is on the other player to stop you from droning to 80 and not the other way around?
TL;DR: Zerg already forces the other races to do plenty. They don't need to be able to do it at yet another stage of the game.
I mean, who in their right mind plays a turtle style all game against Zerg? It's suicide.
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I don't understand their logic. Removal of the replicant was supposed to be good news but then they decided to reveal to everyone how little they know about unit design.
TvT is FINE with siege lines. Theres already a way to break them/force them to move and they're called drops/nukes/banshees/battlecruisers. Now they want to implement a unit whose role is strictly intended to break a siege line in TvT...my god....It's like, they want to force TvT to be bio/missile launchers and leave tank to TvZ exclusively.
Nerf the carrier, leave it in for years without ever buffing it, remove it, replace it with a new, buffed unit that serves the exact same role. GG.
I seriously don't know why they just won't give mines to the reaper, and design maps so that there isn't so many ways to jump up into the main and drop them in mineral lines.
On April 12 2012 06:37 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:24 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 12 2012 06:20 R0YAL wrote:
Please give me your insight on why it is a good unit. It is one of my least favorite barring the two that they already scrapped. The Swarm Host literally serves no purpose other than parking it outside of the opponents base so it can spawn one beetle that is somehow more durable than a Hydralisk. It's not dynamic whatsoever. What else do you do with it? Because it gives Zerg the badly needed mid-tech to actually force a turtling Terran or Protoss to do something. There's a reason why ZvX games devolve into a huge passive midgame until Broodlord tech hits, and that's because there was no way to pressure a wall without suiciding a huge army into it. But why is this a problem? Zerg is at an advantage if they're not being pressured at all. As a Protoss player (can't speak for Terrans, but most I ask seem to agree) I'm constantly looking for opportunities to pressure the Zerg and delay that Hive as much as possible. If you're now telling me I'm not even going to be able to do this while taking a third base reliably, then how exactly is Protoss (or Terran) ever going to be on even footing once the BLs come out, since the Hive could feasibly be much earlier? Is it not enough that Zerg has a stranglehold on map control for the early portions of the game? Is it not enough that the onus is on the other player to stop you from droning to 80 and not the other way around? TL;DR: Zerg already forces the other races to do plenty. They don't need to be able to do it at yet another stage of the game. I mean, who in their right mind plays a turtle style all game against Zerg? It's suicide.
It's suicide unless you're being just as greedy as zerg and turtling. Welcome to PvZ.
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the original viper idea was terrible, no overseers to scout right after lair, forced into viper tech tree to get detection, way too limited way of detection
I'm glad they kept the overseers, now they just have to add him cool ability and we're done
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On April 12 2012 06:36 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:34 R0YAL wrote:On April 12 2012 06:24 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 12 2012 06:20 R0YAL wrote:
Please give me your insight on why it is a good unit. It is one of my least favorite barring the two that they already scrapped. The Swarm Host literally serves no purpose other than parking it outside of the opponents base so it can spawn one beetle that is somehow more durable than a Hydralisk. It's not dynamic whatsoever. What else do you do with it? Because it gives Zerg the badly needed mid-tech to actually force a turtling Terran or Protoss to do something. There's a reason why ZvX games devolve into a huge passive midgame until Broodlord tech hits, and that's because there was no way to pressure a wall without suiciding a huge army into it. I know thats all it does, that was my point. Units that serve one purpose are horrible because you can't have a dynamic game without dynamic units. It just turns into real time rock paper scissors. it's just 1 dimensional because you haven't seen any pros abuse it yet.. who would have thought that vultures would actually be useful in TvT against tank lines when judging it by its initial "scouting role" that blizzard gave it in the manual
Your example didn't convince me. I can't think of even a single unit in SC2 that is more dynamic than the vulture.
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On April 12 2012 06:39 Tyrant0 wrote:
I don't understand their logic. Removal of the replicant was supposed to be good news but then they decided to reveal to everyone how little they know about unit design.
i dunno if it's that, it's trial and error. good ideas don't just get handed down from the clouds by god himself, you have to try stuff out. and blizzard doesn't have to share their development process with us at all, it's to whet our appetite (and maybe get some feedback though i don't know how valuable that is).
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is it me or that soudns like they have no clue what theyre doing? not in the 'game design is shitty' or 'units are stupid' sense, but literaly, they have no idea what they want to do with hots
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Blizzard staffs are making mistakes again and again. Corsair was the only unit from Protoss to keep Muta ball in check. Now without it, Zerg can almost always base race Protoss, thank to the lack of air splash. Dustin is asking Protoss to Phoenix micro all day, when Zerg creep spreads and takes over the map with hatcheries.
why did they get rid of Carrier and turn Tempest into Carrier-wannabe?
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On April 12 2012 06:43 Doc Daneeka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:39 Tyrant0 wrote:
I don't understand their logic. Removal of the replicant was supposed to be good news but then they decided to reveal to everyone how little they know about unit design.
i dunno if it's that, it's trial and error. good ideas don't just get handed down from the clouds by god himself, you have to try stuff out. and blizzard doesn't have to share their development process with us at all, it's to whet our appetite (and maybe get some feedback though i don't know how valuable that is).
Yeah they don't listen to feedback. Replicant was ridiculous. A way to supplement their lack of an idea for protoss by literally giving them the choice to copy other units. I'm pretty sure majority of protoss hated it and whats amazing is that what ultimately convinced them to remove it was when beta testers (are there even any pro players beta testing?) decided to skip making any units that would be OP for protoss to copy.
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On April 12 2012 06:41 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:36 Endymion wrote:On April 12 2012 06:34 R0YAL wrote:On April 12 2012 06:24 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 12 2012 06:20 R0YAL wrote:
Please give me your insight on why it is a good unit. It is one of my least favorite barring the two that they already scrapped. The Swarm Host literally serves no purpose other than parking it outside of the opponents base so it can spawn one beetle that is somehow more durable than a Hydralisk. It's not dynamic whatsoever. What else do you do with it? Because it gives Zerg the badly needed mid-tech to actually force a turtling Terran or Protoss to do something. There's a reason why ZvX games devolve into a huge passive midgame until Broodlord tech hits, and that's because there was no way to pressure a wall without suiciding a huge army into it. I know thats all it does, that was my point. Units that serve one purpose are horrible because you can't have a dynamic game without dynamic units. It just turns into real time rock paper scissors. it's just 1 dimensional because you haven't seen any pros abuse it yet.. who would have thought that vultures would actually be useful in TvT against tank lines when judging it by its initial "scouting role" that blizzard gave it in the manual Your example didn't convince me. I can't think of even a single unit in SC2 that is more dynamic than the vulture.
I can't think of a unit in the game that can be perceived as being more one dimensional initially though... All the vultue is good for on paper is its speed really, so it's labeled as a scout. However, when you combine its speed and its attack it becomes good at harassing.. combine its speed with its low cost and it becomes a sponge for tvt tank battles.. combine it with drops and it becomes even more powerful. Idk, i feel like it should be a boring unit but instead it's incredibly versatile, sorry if it's a bad example for you =/
btw is contaminate still even in the game? for some reason i thought they took it out lol
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On April 12 2012 06:20 Endymion wrote:
ok.... guys, lets be serious... why is the overseer coming back?!!?
Because they don't want to admit that giving detection to Overlords would fix the issues with zerg detection. Also having a lair or hive tech unit be the main source of detection would be absurd. A handful of DTs or cloaked banshees alone would pretty much be able to contain zerg well into the mid game.
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On April 12 2012 06:43 Doc Daneeka wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:39 Tyrant0 wrote:
I don't understand their logic. Removal of the replicant was supposed to be good news but then they decided to reveal to everyone how little they know about unit design.
i dunno if it's that, it's trial and error. good ideas don't just get handed down from the clouds by god himself, you have to try stuff out. and blizzard doesn't have to share their development process with us at all, it's to whet our appetite (and maybe get some feedback though i don't know how valuable that is).
No.. Look.. I show you how some stuff works when the guys in charge have somewhat of a clue about what unit design should be like:
Developer guy:
"Hey, i spent 1 week on this really cool unit that lets you copy every non-massive enemy unit.".
Developer guys chief:
"Your fired and i hope you never ever lay hand on gamedesign again."
But well.. They let "Mules" in.. so i guess.. Everything goes.
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Zerg:
Bad news that Blizzard removed reverse Dark Swarm for Zerg  I had such high hopes that this could fix ZvP making it less stale and deathballish.
Protoss: No word about removing Colossus and Force Fields or any major overhaul. And I thought they prioritized making Protoss watchable for us spectators. Good thing is they removed the air-splash.
Terran: I liked the old Bowder-Thor that would substitute the mothership, but I hope they won't keep normal Thor in the game. Anti air Spider mines would be cool if they required micro, but now I assume you just put them above your mineral line, and that sound as micro heavy as placing a force field.
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like the changes, especially the overseer back in, but still dont like the oracle as a harass unit
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Im psyched, these changes sound a lot more sensible...excpet the long-range missle lol? Wtf is a nuke for?
No replicant is amazing, I really thought that unit was silly from the get-go.
I also like the move to keep the overseer, and the idea of the long-range air AND ground siege is pretty crazy for P.
Overall, its undoubtedly a step in the right direction.
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On April 12 2012 06:45 collegeBored wrote:
is it me or that soudns like they have no clue what theyre doing? not in the 'game design is shitty' or 'units are stupid' sense, but literaly, they have no idea what they want to do with hots
Somewhat, yes, but people please, that kind of thinking will only lead to depression, give Blizzard some time to try and clear things up, I'm sure they'll come up with something good in the end. After all, every single game/expansion they've ever released thus far has been awesome, I see no reason why they'd botch it now just because of indecision.
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This is how i'm translating it. We don't know how to fix terran mech.
I want a robo unit that shoots up.
Replicant... What did you guys expect it to do? u really expected to expand playstyles? it just would only limit builds.
For stargate units I dont want a unit that cant attack.. I want a spell caster... Pheonix doesnt count cause its just a horrible unit.. just give me a stasis field. that can hit units and not minerals. can be used for attacks, defense and harass. but still keep in that it can be destroyed to mineral line harass isnt ridiculously op.
"We are also experimenting with an extremely long-ranged terran missile launcher that can be used to break siege tank lines to make terran-vs.-terran factory-based games more dynamic." ... This makes me cry... this is starcraft not command and conquer..
The way the viper gains energy to me seems very bad.... horribly bad. First of all it flies. can abuse cliffs. already can easily kill the key big hitters that protoss and terran players need. PLUS it takes money away from your opponents future expansions to gain energy?? i wish my high temps gained energy from feed backing and my ghosts gain energy from snipes. it doesnt even require any tech structure other than a lair... too good. at lair you get your roach speed... 2 or 3 vipers pull out the immortals
roach all in
win! 
I think this ability to pull would be much better suited for protoss. In pvp it would get rid of collosus vs collosus wars, Blink collosus with this viper pull ability vs blink collosus blink would be awesome micro battles. In pvt it would be almost useless because wasting energy pulling a single bio unit out would be kinda ridiculous. Could possibly be used to snipe medivacs but would raise the skill cap in making players micro their medivacs if they were even viable. Maybe that useless stargate raider could have this ability so we could snipe queens or something idk... maybe imba..
why remove carrier and make tempest? what's the point? both do the same thing now..
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On April 12 2012 06:46 Endymion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:41 R0YAL wrote:On April 12 2012 06:36 Endymion wrote:On April 12 2012 06:34 R0YAL wrote:On April 12 2012 06:24 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 12 2012 06:20 R0YAL wrote:
Please give me your insight on why it is a good unit. It is one of my least favorite barring the two that they already scrapped. The Swarm Host literally serves no purpose other than parking it outside of the opponents base so it can spawn one beetle that is somehow more durable than a Hydralisk. It's not dynamic whatsoever. What else do you do with it? Because it gives Zerg the badly needed mid-tech to actually force a turtling Terran or Protoss to do something. There's a reason why ZvX games devolve into a huge passive midgame until Broodlord tech hits, and that's because there was no way to pressure a wall without suiciding a huge army into it. I know thats all it does, that was my point. Units that serve one purpose are horrible because you can't have a dynamic game without dynamic units. It just turns into real time rock paper scissors. it's just 1 dimensional because you haven't seen any pros abuse it yet.. who would have thought that vultures would actually be useful in TvT against tank lines when judging it by its initial "scouting role" that blizzard gave it in the manual Your example didn't convince me. I can't think of even a single unit in SC2 that is more dynamic than the vulture. I can't think of a unit in the game that can be perceived as being more one dimensional initially though... All the vultue is good for on paper is its speed really, so it's labeled as a scout. However, when you combine its speed and its attack it becomes good at harassing.. combine its speed with its low cost and it becomes a sponge for tvt tank battles.. combine it with drops and it becomes even more powerful. Idk, i feel like it should be a boring unit but instead it's incredibly versatile, sorry if it's a bad example for you =/ btw is contaminate still even in the game? for some reason i thought they took it out lol
Vultures also have spider mines which is a huge aspect of the unit. I know you already know this but it's a really big deal. >_>
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On April 12 2012 06:53 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 06:46 Endymion wrote:On April 12 2012 06:41 R0YAL wrote:On April 12 2012 06:36 Endymion wrote:On April 12 2012 06:34 R0YAL wrote:On April 12 2012 06:24 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 12 2012 06:20 R0YAL wrote:
Please give me your insight on why it is a good unit. It is one of my least favorite barring the two that they already scrapped. The Swarm Host literally serves no purpose other than parking it outside of the opponents base so it can spawn one beetle that is somehow more durable than a Hydralisk. It's not dynamic whatsoever. What else do you do with it? Because it gives Zerg the badly needed mid-tech to actually force a turtling Terran or Protoss to do something. There's a reason why ZvX games devolve into a huge passive midgame until Broodlord tech hits, and that's because there was no way to pressure a wall without suiciding a huge army into it. I know thats all it does, that was my point. Units that serve one purpose are horrible because you can't have a dynamic game without dynamic units. It just turns into real time rock paper scissors. it's just 1 dimensional because you haven't seen any pros abuse it yet.. who would have thought that vultures would actually be useful in TvT against tank lines when judging it by its initial "scouting role" that blizzard gave it in the manual Your example didn't convince me. I can't think of even a single unit in SC2 that is more dynamic than the vulture. I can't think of a unit in the game that can be perceived as being more one dimensional initially though... All the vultue is good for on paper is its speed really, so it's labeled as a scout. However, when you combine its speed and its attack it becomes good at harassing.. combine its speed with its low cost and it becomes a sponge for tvt tank battles.. combine it with drops and it becomes even more powerful. Idk, i feel like it should be a boring unit but instead it's incredibly versatile, sorry if it's a bad example for you =/ btw is contaminate still even in the game? for some reason i thought they took it out lol Vultures also have spider mines which is a huge aspect of the unit. I know you already know this but it's a really big deal. >_>
Spidermines alone make them worth building...
Or what do you do with excess minerals? Build totally useless Marines in TvT and TvP?...
Btw: In the Blizzard manual among other things Dark Swarm needed to sacrifice a unit and iirc the Queen still had it's attack and plenty of other bullshit was in there.
Remember when they said, they at first rebuilt Broodwar to make SC2?
I wonder when they realised, that everything they changed made it worse...
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On April 12 2012 06:39 Protosnake wrote:
the original viper idea was terrible, no overseers to scout right after lair, forced into viper tech tree to get detection, way too limited way of detection
I'm glad they kept the overseers, now they just have to add him cool ability and we're done
You could (I guess still can) build the Viper directly at the Lair. It doesn't force another tech tree, just Lair which you needed for the Overseer anyway.
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spider mines in the air??
HOW ABOUT THE GROUND!!
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EPT
