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On April 11 2012 10:09 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 09:25 Assirra wrote:On April 11 2012 09:10 emc wrote:
stephano does beat koreans, he's done it before maybe they weren't paying attention I think they want more then 1 person tough... he's won IPL twice? he beat polt in lone star awhile back? he wins plenty. i see what you meant... well we aren't going to have more foreigners win anything unless they get their act together they must be getting sick of winning everything. the foreign tournaments will continue to go on as long as the koreans are willing to travel which they are, koreans bring crowds to tournaments whether you believe that or not.
stephano won ipl 3, so only one.
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On April 11 2012 10:32 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 10:18 emc wrote:On April 11 2012 10:11 Assirra wrote:On April 11 2012 10:09 emc wrote:On April 11 2012 09:25 Assirra wrote:On April 11 2012 09:10 emc wrote:
stephano does beat koreans, he's done it before maybe they weren't paying attention I think they want more then 1 person tough... he's won IPL twice? he beat polt in lone star awhile back? he wins plenty. I don't wanna be the rude but that is still 1 person... sure but whats the difference between 1 korean winning everything and multiple koreans winning everything? they are still korean. I see it the same way for foreigners, if stephano is winning everything then that's good enough for me to realize we have a chance. I don't care if idra was winning or if stephano was winning or if they both were, they are foreigners and that's enough for me. Except that the main point here. There is not 1 korean winning everything ever since MVP his wrists got worse. The one that looked that way was MKP and he didn't for IPL. You need depth to compete. What you gonne do when Stephano retires? Wait for the next one foreigner in the hope he arises to combat the swarm of koreans?
what else can you do but wait for someone else to shine? what do you want me to say? if all we get is one foreigner who can beat koreans than so be it, it's not my fault and it's not the koreans, it's the rest of the foreign players. My point is that whats the difference between MKP winning everything and MVP winning everything or 1,000 different koreans winning everything? they are still korean and are still dominating. At least we have a foreigner who can actually make top 8 consistently and even win tournaments. Sure more foreigners winning would be great, but it's not necessary for foreign events to continue because koreans draw the crowds to the events because they bring the best games. I just want GOOD games, and whether it's all koreans, all foreigners or a combination giving the games then I don't care.
we're all spectators here and I find it funny we get threads like these daily about "how do we get better in the foreign scene etc. etc." let the pros figure that out, it's not really up to us whether the pros win their games. So can we just stop with this korea vs foreigners bull crap? I'm more interested in the players, not their country. If foreigners want to win then it's up to them.
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On April 10 2012 09:26 jinorazi wrote:
i'm sure everyone wants to move away from the bw stigma (white people suck)
except whitera, he beat boxer *nod*
So did G5. Also, Ret took a game off Nada in BW, too.
I think even some foreigner at WCG within the last couple years took down Jaedong in a game with Bio/mech.
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On April 11 2012 10:28 Killcycle wrote:
I hate the term Foreigner.
Why?
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On April 11 2012 10:43 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2012 09:26 jinorazi wrote:
i'm sure everyone wants to move away from the bw stigma (white people suck)
except whitera, he beat boxer *nod* So did G5. Also, Ret took a game off Nada in BW, too. I think even some foreigner at WCG within the last couple years took down Jaedong in a game with Bio/mech.
that was bratok
jd gave him way too much credit iirc when i watched the rep jd had enough shit to break him. maybe not enough vs korean micro, but probably vs foreigner.
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On April 10 2012 08:37 Blade Fox wrote:
Well just ask yourself if you're a non-korean, "If a non-korean wins is it more imprinted on my mind than if another korean wins?"
The answer is most likely yes I remember Huk winning tournaments more than I do a korean winning a tournament. Or I remember Naniwa almost beating all the koreans at an MLG last year than I really cared about Leenock winning.
It generates more interest more competition is always funner than less for the competitive minded. I imagine if foreigners were dominating over koreans they'd say the same thing if you look at it that way.
Or I guess it could just be PR. Derp.
Not even a little bit. I remember my favourite players winning more than whether a foreigner or a Korean wins. If it isn't one of my favourite players, I probably don't care unless the games were amazing. I'm not into all this "we need more good foreigners" business. I'm more interested in seeing awesome games. If it's Koreans bringing it, then I'll cheer for them. Same with foreigners.
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I remember Huk won MLG Orlando last year I can't name the location of another MLG from last year.
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Yea, this really isn't hard to understand.
Koreans want more viewers because more viewers = more money. If the entire SC2 scene is nothing but Koreans, then there will be a huge decrease in foreigner viewers. This has nothing to do with Korean's actually 'caring' whether or not foreigners are in a tournament or not. The care is in the money.
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On April 11 2012 10:06 Grimmyman123 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 10:04 Assirra wrote:On April 11 2012 10:00 archonOOid wrote:
If Koreans, generally speaking, want to see foreigners at the top of the podium why aren't they picking up foreigners in their rosters. The globalization in starcraft 2 has come from the western teams and not the Korean teams. The Gom TV house has had a terrible practice environment and the seeds to GSL is just to make fool of the Westerners. I have a hard time to see any positive interaction from Koreans that has benefited the western scene. The OGS+TL, Slayers+EG and ST+Quantic came to be by nagging foreigners and not by generous Koreans. The entire SC2 Korean scene (GSL) was initiated by Blizzard and i can go on and on. The world tournament that was held with a team match and a regular single elimination bracket didn't help the western scene at all. That tournament was created so that the viewership would go up, spur interest and so that the GSL could maintain itself economically by foreigner money. That's my 0.02$ This makes no sense. You want them to pick up unknown foreigners add them to their team/house including a translator cause the foreigners can't win on their own? Not at all - more that team house training was initiated by the non-koreans, and not initiated by the teams. Further, they are joint team ventures, I off the top of my head cannot think of a foreign player straight up recruited long term by a Korean team.
IM picked up Fenix to exactly what you're saying. He kept dropping out of tournaments due to a health problem that wasn't revealed to the general public and finally went home to South American later on.
If you're looking at nani's view of Koreans vs Foreigners, it's most likely way wrong. Koreans loved HuK, IdrA, and Stephano. They just don't seem to like Naniwa much.
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On April 11 2012 12:24 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 10:43 Tump wrote:On April 10 2012 09:26 jinorazi wrote:
i'm sure everyone wants to move away from the bw stigma (white people suck)
except whitera, he beat boxer *nod* So did G5. Also, Ret took a game off Nada in BW, too. I think even some foreigner at WCG within the last couple years took down Jaedong in a game with Bio/mech. that was bratok jd gave him way too much credit iirc when i watched the rep jd had enough shit to break him. maybe not enough vs korean micro, but probably vs foreigner.
Thought it was Advokate?
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On April 11 2012 12:44 Coated wrote:
This has nothing to do with Korean's actually 'caring' whether or not foreigners are in a tournament or not. The care is in the money.
what makes you think koreans dont care about foreingers?
I dont know which MLG was it but I once vistied playXP and google translated couple long winded thread. It seemed they genuinely cared about other players.
Also I remember reading few of Milkis translated reaction from playXP and I've sensed none of malicious intent when talking amongst themselves.
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They don't want them to win they want to gain viewers for the game as a whole. People are quickly losing interest in sc2 but what generates a TON of viewers is non-korean players (honeslty have no idea why, there are no foreigners that i tune in just to see (no offense at all). but i will tune in to watch MKP or MMA play. two huge superstars. watching idra fumble around is not nearly as great as watching MKP split units vs storms/banelings or w/e)
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Koreans are identifying that what happened in brood war is happening in sc2. I am not saying this is why they are supporting stephano specifically, but it would be the reason they want foreigners to compete.
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On April 11 2012 13:23 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 12:24 rauk wrote:On April 11 2012 10:43 Tump wrote:On April 10 2012 09:26 jinorazi wrote:
i'm sure everyone wants to move away from the bw stigma (white people suck)
except whitera, he beat boxer *nod* So did G5. Also, Ret took a game off Nada in BW, too. I think even some foreigner at WCG within the last couple years took down Jaedong in a game with Bio/mech. that was bratok jd gave him way too much credit iirc when i watched the rep jd had enough shit to break him. maybe not enough vs korean micro, but probably vs foreigner. Thought it was Advokate?
It was Advokate.
Actually foreigners won over 50 official games to Korean progamers, but all in all, it's like 1% of the games played :D
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On April 11 2012 07:40 ReaperX wrote:
because foreigners are ez!! jk
Remember that you're a foreigner yourself XD
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If foreigners can't win any kinds of tournements that basically mean the death of the foreign scene in the long run. I like watching Korean's as much as the next person but you need the local heros to keep the interest going. You need a swede having a shot at doing well at dreamhack, you need a idra to be competitive at a MLG and so on. I can't see it being sustainable having Korean roflstomp all non-Koreans in all tournaments. In that case it will slowly revert to us having mostly GSL/Korean events with less and less international events. It can probably find a market but it will certainly not grow esports.
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On April 11 2012 21:17 gruff wrote:
you need a idra to be competitive at a MLG and so on
Good luck with that 
Anyway I really don't think that the dominance of korean players is gonna have the same effect on SC2 that it had on BW. Times aren't the same, means aren't the same too. Anyone everywhere in the world can nowadays easily get access to any stream in English (the most international language). You can even watch most pro gamers streaming their ladder sessions.
If the best competitions involve korean players, people will simply follow these regardless of the origins of each players.
As the market is gaining in maturity, I think so are the viewers (a little at least). I believe that SC2 on the international e-sport scene is getting big enough and recognized enough so that viewer are now mostly looking for the best possible competitiveness rather than seeing local heroes rise.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying local heroes rising is pointless, it's good for local scenes to have these but considering the big international events, people will (this is only my opinion) enjoy watching the best possible confrontation rather than watching X from USA playing against Y from Nepal only because they're from Nepal.
I know I'm not the only one who skipped most of Idra's game during IPL4 because I just didn't expect a great spectacle from it. Instead I watched Koreans VS Koreans games or Stephano's games because I thought it would be more entertaining to see the very best of the bests playing, rather than a very good player who gets stomped (sorry but that's what happened) by the bests.
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good thing naniwa will win code s season 2 then.
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On April 11 2012 10:31 shadymmj wrote:
because if this keeps up, in 1 year, the sc2 scene will start to resemble BW and the foreign fanbase will move on to the next shiny new game. yeah, there are some of us who aren't that shallow - a minority, look at the BW section now.
I believe this to be the case too. If Foreign players never win any prize money, it will be harder for foreign pro-gamers to make a living. The foreign fans will drift away because they will have less interest in Foreign Tournaments with little or no Foreign participation in the end-stages. The number of Foreign Tournaments will diminish as the fans drift away. The Foreign Scene will die or continue on in a much diminished way.
If things continue we could see a situation comparable to BW where it is not viable to be a Foreign pro-gamer because there are no Foreign tournaments and you have to go to Korea or play one Tournament a year.
I think the Foreign teams need to operate in a similar way to Korean teams, with daily mini-leagues and group analysis sessions to break down opponent's styles of play and work out optimal counter-builds. I don't see that organised and rigourous approach in Foreign teams. EG is probably closest, but even they have players living in different continents.
The Korean Teams give their members high-level practice partners and a support network for analysing and exploiting their opponents weaknesses and identifying and improving their own weaknesses. I don't see Millenium doing any of that for Stephano. From what I can see Stephano has to just ladder and play custom games with his friends such as Mana, Thorzain and Bling. He does not have a team who helps analyse future opponents like MMA and work out possible strategies. His friends might help him do that of course, but that is not an organised effort coming from within his team. Maybe I am wrong and Millenium do have these analysis sessions 'off the grid' but it does not seem that way.
Until the Foreign Teams re-organize and give their players the same help that Korean teams do, I think it will be really difficult for Foreign players to go up a level.
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some of the new guys/girls if they put in work could threaten the korean domination, people like Scarlett illusion etc but the old guard, idra incontrol huk thorzain naniwa etc haven't got a chance imo otherwise they would have proven themselves by now
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EPT
