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Knock off the SC2 vs BW vs LoL vs whatever crap please. |
But what if I don't care about esports? Esports can go die in a fire, as long as my game is played.
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On March 27 2012 18:51 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 16:42 lorkac wrote:On March 27 2012 16:24 karpo wrote:On March 27 2012 16:18 lorkac wrote:On March 27 2012 09:30 Adreme wrote:On March 27 2012 08:22 snakeeyez wrote:
It will be pretty sad to watch the best like flash lose to random pros just because of imbalances and lower skill ceiling. I think .their amount of practice will be wasted after they adapt to the game and see how easy it is in comparison. I love Flash but didnt he just recently lose to 3 protosses who he clearly outclasses. If theres one thing I learned watching e-sports and sports in general its that the best player can lose at any time even when he is/they are better than there opponent(s). I think the extent to which it happens in SC2 is blown way out of proportion. It actually is blown way out of proportion. High winrates and consistent winrates are very much true realities in SC2. Heck, the foreigner Korean gap is so wide right now that unless you're training in the team house ala Huk/Naniwa, you don't really have much of a shot even trading games vs most koreans. Mostly when they say things like "lower skill ceiling" they're more often than not simply lashing out at the popularity of a game that they feel is inferior much akin to how a lot of people lash out and make fun of famous people like Justin Beiber and Kim Kardasian. There really is no reason to be hostile--but since you feel it is unfair that those people are succsfull and not others that are "more deserving," then you end up lashing out and saying things like "slutty (kardasian)" "gay (bieber)" or "lower skill ceiling (SC2)" The talk about "low skill ceiling that's nearly reached" has been around for a year and a half now, yet players now would totally destroy everyone in last years GSL. Let's not get too specific. Details lead to SC2 v BW debates--which leads to red words and a PM you can't respond to. It's very human nature to act resistant to change. Let them go through whatever motions they need to get through to feel better about themselves. It's very human to feel jilted when the people who have the most to gain from liking your new shiny hobby, still can't objectively find a reason to like it try as they might, Let them go through whatever motions they need to feel better about their game. See how condescending it is when people pretend to understand your motivations but clearly don't have a clue?
How is it condescending to talk in general terms? People don't like change. When Blizzard begins supporting D3 Esport instead of SC2 esport--SC2 people will whine and talk about how SC2 > D3. It's human nature to feel upset that your hobby is not the one that is supported and popular among your peers. No need to get defensive.
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On March 27 2012 23:16 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 23:03 StarStruck wrote:On March 27 2012 22:51 bgx wrote:On March 27 2012 22:48 JustPassingBy wrote:On March 27 2012 22:28 rasers wrote:On March 27 2012 22:23 -Archangel- wrote:On March 27 2012 20:55 BrosephBrostar wrote:On March 27 2012 19:24 iEatWoofers wrote:
Hm korea is weird... why does any organization have the exclusive rights to hold tournaments? No wonder SC2 didn't take off there as well as it did in the west (well, that and BW ofc).
I've heard some pretty bad sounding stuff about kespa... I hope they don't get nearly as much power over the SC2 scene as they have over BW. Kespa is the best thing to have happened to esports but everyone acts like they're satan incarnate. I guess they're all mad leta fans or something. I agree. While I understand people being mad over pros being treated like slaves and doing nothing but grinding games, but things like strict rules during games are logical. Those rules turned BW from a computer game into legitimate sport. For instance because if you are punished for pausing the game yourself or writing shit in chat your are making an advantage for yourself that is beyond the game. Making breaks like this (which can easily be faked and I am sure sometimes there are in SC2) lets the player with less concentration and stamina rest. So every professionell in any sport is a slave or what? i never understand the slave thing ~~ Many people believe that the rules set by KespA were too restrictive, like requesting a pause is "pp" and if you write "ppp" by accident you lose the game. Seems like a weapon of 90% on this forums. But whats up with the slavery. Its up to teams to dictate how their players train not kespa. 1. The sweatshop/slavery rants are old. You simply don't choose to understand it; that's your problem. 2. You don't even know what KeSPA is. End of discussion right there. You realise the guy you're quoting is on your "side"? Man, some people in this thread seem so defensive they jump at anyone, even people with similar opinions. Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 23:03 setzer wrote:On March 27 2012 22:35 izen wrote:On March 27 2012 21:26 EnergizerBunny wrote:
Without BW "e-sports" is effectively dead. Can't wait to see SC2 get replaced by some mobile phone game in the near future. So what you are saying is that games like, Quake, counter strike, painkiller, tf, WC3, unreal never existed? (i can go on and on and on) I came to a conclusion that u sir, no nothing about e-sports. You only see one game that u consider "e-sports" while there is thousand of other games out there is as big as BW is in korea but on a global scale. All i can say about this is: Gonna sit back, relax and wait for more news to pop up about this situation. Please name these other thousand games that are all on television channels, have government support, and have been around for over a decade. There simply isn't a single game that has achieved the mainstream cultural impact BW has and yet people want it killed off to popularize a game that may not even be around in a few years. The original guy said that "without BW esports is effectively dead", something that's clearly not true. The reply was that there's alot of other esport titles and has been since about the same time BW came out. If you want to argue that BW is the only "true" esport then go ahead. I don't know if some games are close to or as big as BW, it's hard to gauge as they are more spread out.
That's a philosophic question right?
Is it better to be big in one country or medium in many countries or small in most countries? When that is defined, then you can define which E-Sport is the "best." But even that--that is subjective.
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On March 27 2012 23:16 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 23:03 StarStruck wrote:On March 27 2012 22:51 bgx wrote:On March 27 2012 22:48 JustPassingBy wrote:On March 27 2012 22:28 rasers wrote:On March 27 2012 22:23 -Archangel- wrote:On March 27 2012 20:55 BrosephBrostar wrote:On March 27 2012 19:24 iEatWoofers wrote:
Hm korea is weird... why does any organization have the exclusive rights to hold tournaments? No wonder SC2 didn't take off there as well as it did in the west (well, that and BW ofc).
I've heard some pretty bad sounding stuff about kespa... I hope they don't get nearly as much power over the SC2 scene as they have over BW. Kespa is the best thing to have happened to esports but everyone acts like they're satan incarnate. I guess they're all mad leta fans or something. I agree. While I understand people being mad over pros being treated like slaves and doing nothing but grinding games, but things like strict rules during games are logical. Those rules turned BW from a computer game into legitimate sport. For instance because if you are punished for pausing the game yourself or writing shit in chat your are making an advantage for yourself that is beyond the game. Making breaks like this (which can easily be faked and I am sure sometimes there are in SC2) lets the player with less concentration and stamina rest. So every professionell in any sport is a slave or what? i never understand the slave thing ~~ Many people believe that the rules set by KespA were too restrictive, like requesting a pause is "pp" and if you write "ppp" by accident you lose the game. Seems like a weapon of 90% on this forums. But whats up with the slavery. Its up to teams to dictate how their players train not kespa. 1. The sweatshop/slavery rants are old. You simply don't choose to understand it; that's your problem. 2. You don't even know what KeSPA is. End of discussion right there. You realise the guy you're quoting is on your "side"? Man, some people in this thread seem so defensive they jump at anyone, even people with similar opinions. Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 23:03 setzer wrote:On March 27 2012 22:35 izen wrote:On March 27 2012 21:26 EnergizerBunny wrote:
Without BW "e-sports" is effectively dead. Can't wait to see SC2 get replaced by some mobile phone game in the near future. So what you are saying is that games like, Quake, counter strike, painkiller, tf, WC3, unreal never existed? (i can go on and on and on) I came to a conclusion that u sir, no nothing about e-sports. You only see one game that u consider "e-sports" while there is thousand of other games out there is as big as BW is in korea but on a global scale. All i can say about this is: Gonna sit back, relax and wait for more news to pop up about this situation. Please name these other thousand games that are all on television channels, have government support, and have been around for over a decade. There simply isn't a single game that has achieved the mainstream cultural impact BW has and yet people want it killed off to popularize a game that may not even be around in a few years. The original guy said that "without BW esports is effectively dead", something that's clearly not true. The reply was that there's alot of other esport titles and has been since about the same time BW came out. If you want to argue that BW is the only "true" esport then go ahead. I don't know if some games are close to or as big as BW, it's hard to gauge as they are more spread out.
Nah, I meant the other guy and I don't call it defensive. I call it educating the uneducated.
People have to realize that when you are the cream of the crop it isn't so bad.
Gamers like JD were able to continue their studies while being pro gamers.
Stork played WoW for 8 months while pro gaming etc.
What I find most annoying the SC2 forums is the fact there are many people who speak out of their asses without educating themselves beforehand.
On March 27 2012 23:19 Blasterion wrote:
But what if I don't care about esports? Esports can go die in a fire, as long as my game is played.
That's why the word has such little weight.
Athletic sports stand on their own.
You aren't going to watch something that doesn't tickle your fancy.
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On March 27 2012 23:16 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 23:03 StarStruck wrote:On March 27 2012 22:51 bgx wrote:On March 27 2012 22:48 JustPassingBy wrote:On March 27 2012 22:28 rasers wrote:On March 27 2012 22:23 -Archangel- wrote:On March 27 2012 20:55 BrosephBrostar wrote:On March 27 2012 19:24 iEatWoofers wrote:
Hm korea is weird... why does any organization have the exclusive rights to hold tournaments? No wonder SC2 didn't take off there as well as it did in the west (well, that and BW ofc).
I've heard some pretty bad sounding stuff about kespa... I hope they don't get nearly as much power over the SC2 scene as they have over BW. Kespa is the best thing to have happened to esports but everyone acts like they're satan incarnate. I guess they're all mad leta fans or something. I agree. While I understand people being mad over pros being treated like slaves and doing nothing but grinding games, but things like strict rules during games are logical. Those rules turned BW from a computer game into legitimate sport. For instance because if you are punished for pausing the game yourself or writing shit in chat your are making an advantage for yourself that is beyond the game. Making breaks like this (which can easily be faked and I am sure sometimes there are in SC2) lets the player with less concentration and stamina rest. So every professionell in any sport is a slave or what? i never understand the slave thing ~~ Many people believe that the rules set by KespA were too restrictive, like requesting a pause is "pp" and if you write "ppp" by accident you lose the game. Seems like a weapon of 90% on this forums. But whats up with the slavery. Its up to teams to dictate how their players train not kespa. 1. The sweatshop/slavery rants are old. You simply don't choose to understand it; that's your problem. 2. You don't even know what KeSPA is. End of discussion right there. You realise the guy you're quoting is on your "side"? Man, some people in this thread seem so defensive they jump at anyone, even people with similar opinions. Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 23:03 setzer wrote:On March 27 2012 22:35 izen wrote:On March 27 2012 21:26 EnergizerBunny wrote:
Without BW "e-sports" is effectively dead. Can't wait to see SC2 get replaced by some mobile phone game in the near future. So what you are saying is that games like, Quake, counter strike, painkiller, tf, WC3, unreal never existed? (i can go on and on and on) I came to a conclusion that u sir, no nothing about e-sports. You only see one game that u consider "e-sports" while there is thousand of other games out there is as big as BW is in korea but on a global scale. All i can say about this is: Gonna sit back, relax and wait for more news to pop up about this situation. Please name these other thousand games that are all on television channels, have government support, and have been around for over a decade. There simply isn't a single game that has achieved the mainstream cultural impact BW has and yet people want it killed off to popularize a game that may not even be around in a few years. The original guy said that "without BW esports is effectively dead", something that's clearly not true. The reply was that there's alot of other esport titles and has been since about the same time BW came out. If you want to argue that BW is the only "true" esport then go ahead. I don't know if some games are close to or as big as BW, it's hard to gauge as they are more spread out.
I suppose it just depends on where your esports bar is.
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On March 27 2012 23:25 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 23:16 karpo wrote:On March 27 2012 23:03 StarStruck wrote:On March 27 2012 22:51 bgx wrote:On March 27 2012 22:48 JustPassingBy wrote:On March 27 2012 22:28 rasers wrote:On March 27 2012 22:23 -Archangel- wrote:On March 27 2012 20:55 BrosephBrostar wrote:On March 27 2012 19:24 iEatWoofers wrote:
Hm korea is weird... why does any organization have the exclusive rights to hold tournaments? No wonder SC2 didn't take off there as well as it did in the west (well, that and BW ofc).
I've heard some pretty bad sounding stuff about kespa... I hope they don't get nearly as much power over the SC2 scene as they have over BW. Kespa is the best thing to have happened to esports but everyone acts like they're satan incarnate. I guess they're all mad leta fans or something. I agree. While I understand people being mad over pros being treated like slaves and doing nothing but grinding games, but things like strict rules during games are logical. Those rules turned BW from a computer game into legitimate sport. For instance because if you are punished for pausing the game yourself or writing shit in chat your are making an advantage for yourself that is beyond the game. Making breaks like this (which can easily be faked and I am sure sometimes there are in SC2) lets the player with less concentration and stamina rest. So every professionell in any sport is a slave or what? i never understand the slave thing ~~ Many people believe that the rules set by KespA were too restrictive, like requesting a pause is "pp" and if you write "ppp" by accident you lose the game. Seems like a weapon of 90% on this forums. But whats up with the slavery. Its up to teams to dictate how their players train not kespa. 1. The sweatshop/slavery rants are old. You simply don't choose to understand it; that's your problem. 2. You don't even know what KeSPA is. End of discussion right there. You realise the guy you're quoting is on your "side"? Man, some people in this thread seem so defensive they jump at anyone, even people with similar opinions. On March 27 2012 23:03 setzer wrote:On March 27 2012 22:35 izen wrote:On March 27 2012 21:26 EnergizerBunny wrote:
Without BW "e-sports" is effectively dead. Can't wait to see SC2 get replaced by some mobile phone game in the near future. So what you are saying is that games like, Quake, counter strike, painkiller, tf, WC3, unreal never existed? (i can go on and on and on) I came to a conclusion that u sir, no nothing about e-sports. You only see one game that u consider "e-sports" while there is thousand of other games out there is as big as BW is in korea but on a global scale. All i can say about this is: Gonna sit back, relax and wait for more news to pop up about this situation. Please name these other thousand games that are all on television channels, have government support, and have been around for over a decade. There simply isn't a single game that has achieved the mainstream cultural impact BW has and yet people want it killed off to popularize a game that may not even be around in a few years. The original guy said that "without BW esports is effectively dead", something that's clearly not true. The reply was that there's alot of other esport titles and has been since about the same time BW came out. If you want to argue that BW is the only "true" esport then go ahead. I don't know if some games are close to or as big as BW, it's hard to gauge as they are more spread out. Nah, I meant the other guy and I don't call it defensive. I call it educating the uneducated. People have to realize that when you are the cream of the crop it isn't so bad. Gamers like JD were able to continue their studies while being pro gamers. Stork played WoW for 8 months while pro gaming etc. What I find most annoying the SC2 forums is the fact there are many people who speak out of their asses without educating themselves beforehand. Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 23:19 Blasterion wrote:
But what if I don't care about esports? Esports can go die in a fire, as long as my game is played. That's why the word has such little weight. Athletic sports stand on their own. You aren't going to watch something that doesn't tickle your fancy.
A.) Athletic Sports is actually supported because excelling physically is seen as an accomplishment and hence physical contests are seen as important. This is why popular sports like basketball, futbol, football, rugby, etc... are more popular and get more funding than curling, darts and pool. It's also the reason that games like Magic the Gathering, Counterstrike and DOTA does not have as much societal support--because they're not physical.
The attempt to promote esports is the attempt to create a ubiquitous sense of acceptance of electronic sports in general with the hope that it will remove the societal stigma that videogames have.
B.) People in the SC2 thread have the right to talk about what the want much like people in the BW thread are welcome to talk about what they want. Why would you go to an SC2 thread and expect SC2 fans to belittle their own game?
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On March 27 2012 23:36 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 23:25 StarStruck wrote:On March 27 2012 23:16 karpo wrote:On March 27 2012 23:03 StarStruck wrote:On March 27 2012 22:51 bgx wrote:On March 27 2012 22:48 JustPassingBy wrote:On March 27 2012 22:28 rasers wrote:On March 27 2012 22:23 -Archangel- wrote:On March 27 2012 20:55 BrosephBrostar wrote:On March 27 2012 19:24 iEatWoofers wrote:
Hm korea is weird... why does any organization have the exclusive rights to hold tournaments? No wonder SC2 didn't take off there as well as it did in the west (well, that and BW ofc).
I've heard some pretty bad sounding stuff about kespa... I hope they don't get nearly as much power over the SC2 scene as they have over BW. Kespa is the best thing to have happened to esports but everyone acts like they're satan incarnate. I guess they're all mad leta fans or something. I agree. While I understand people being mad over pros being treated like slaves and doing nothing but grinding games, but things like strict rules during games are logical. Those rules turned BW from a computer game into legitimate sport. For instance because if you are punished for pausing the game yourself or writing shit in chat your are making an advantage for yourself that is beyond the game. Making breaks like this (which can easily be faked and I am sure sometimes there are in SC2) lets the player with less concentration and stamina rest. So every professionell in any sport is a slave or what? i never understand the slave thing ~~ Many people believe that the rules set by KespA were too restrictive, like requesting a pause is "pp" and if you write "ppp" by accident you lose the game. Seems like a weapon of 90% on this forums. But whats up with the slavery. Its up to teams to dictate how their players train not kespa. 1. The sweatshop/slavery rants are old. You simply don't choose to understand it; that's your problem. 2. You don't even know what KeSPA is. End of discussion right there. You realise the guy you're quoting is on your "side"? Man, some people in this thread seem so defensive they jump at anyone, even people with similar opinions. On March 27 2012 23:03 setzer wrote:On March 27 2012 22:35 izen wrote:On March 27 2012 21:26 EnergizerBunny wrote:
Without BW "e-sports" is effectively dead. Can't wait to see SC2 get replaced by some mobile phone game in the near future. So what you are saying is that games like, Quake, counter strike, painkiller, tf, WC3, unreal never existed? (i can go on and on and on) I came to a conclusion that u sir, no nothing about e-sports. You only see one game that u consider "e-sports" while there is thousand of other games out there is as big as BW is in korea but on a global scale. All i can say about this is: Gonna sit back, relax and wait for more news to pop up about this situation. Please name these other thousand games that are all on television channels, have government support, and have been around for over a decade. There simply isn't a single game that has achieved the mainstream cultural impact BW has and yet people want it killed off to popularize a game that may not even be around in a few years. The original guy said that "without BW esports is effectively dead", something that's clearly not true. The reply was that there's alot of other esport titles and has been since about the same time BW came out. If you want to argue that BW is the only "true" esport then go ahead. I don't know if some games are close to or as big as BW, it's hard to gauge as they are more spread out. Nah, I meant the other guy and I don't call it defensive. I call it educating the uneducated. People have to realize that when you are the cream of the crop it isn't so bad. Gamers like JD were able to continue their studies while being pro gamers. Stork played WoW for 8 months while pro gaming etc. What I find most annoying the SC2 forums is the fact there are many people who speak out of their asses without educating themselves beforehand. On March 27 2012 23:19 Blasterion wrote:
But what if I don't care about esports? Esports can go die in a fire, as long as my game is played. That's why the word has such little weight. Athletic sports stand on their own. You aren't going to watch something that doesn't tickle your fancy. A.) Athletic Sports is actually supported because excelling physically is seen as an accomplishment and hence physical contests are seen as important. This is why popular sports like basketball, futbol, football, rugby, etc... are more popular and get more funding than curling, darts and pool. It's also the reason that games like Magic the Gathering, Counterstrike and DOTA does not have as much societal support--because they're not physical. The attempt to promote esports is the attempt to create a ubiquitous sense of acceptance of electronic sports in general with the hope that it will remove the societal stigma that videogames have. B.) People in the SC2 thread have the right to talk about what the want much like people in the BW thread are welcome to talk about what they want. Why would you go to an SC2 thread and expect SC2 fans to belittle their own game?
What about golf?
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That wasn't the point I was making. It's the fact that each game stands on it's own.
I understand the sense of acceptance, but that's hodge-podge. Goes back to the interest in sports. Games are similiar in that way. We watch what interests us and not the other way around. They only care about the games that interest them.
As for your latter point. Under TL guidelines. No you don't have the right to say whatever you want. It's a privilege hence, edcuate yourself or ask questions before making yourself look silly.
This has nothing to do with belittling. It has everything to do with educating and informing those about what is happening.
If you weren't aware of the proposed format then you should probably do so now. That's why you see a lot of people from both scenes raise a lot of questions.
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well guys sc1/brood war is over a decade old. all things come to an end, even good things. and technology has made for a much better handling and looking game. whats so bad about moving on?
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On March 27 2012 23:19 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 18:51 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:On March 27 2012 16:42 lorkac wrote:On March 27 2012 16:24 karpo wrote:On March 27 2012 16:18 lorkac wrote:On March 27 2012 09:30 Adreme wrote:On March 27 2012 08:22 snakeeyez wrote:
It will be pretty sad to watch the best like flash lose to random pros just because of imbalances and lower skill ceiling. I think .their amount of practice will be wasted after they adapt to the game and see how easy it is in comparison. I love Flash but didnt he just recently lose to 3 protosses who he clearly outclasses. If theres one thing I learned watching e-sports and sports in general its that the best player can lose at any time even when he is/they are better than there opponent(s). I think the extent to which it happens in SC2 is blown way out of proportion. It actually is blown way out of proportion. High winrates and consistent winrates are very much true realities in SC2. Heck, the foreigner Korean gap is so wide right now that unless you're training in the team house ala Huk/Naniwa, you don't really have much of a shot even trading games vs most koreans. Mostly when they say things like "lower skill ceiling" they're more often than not simply lashing out at the popularity of a game that they feel is inferior much akin to how a lot of people lash out and make fun of famous people like Justin Beiber and Kim Kardasian. There really is no reason to be hostile--but since you feel it is unfair that those people are succsfull and not others that are "more deserving," then you end up lashing out and saying things like "slutty (kardasian)" "gay (bieber)" or "lower skill ceiling (SC2)" The talk about "low skill ceiling that's nearly reached" has been around for a year and a half now, yet players now would totally destroy everyone in last years GSL. Let's not get too specific. Details lead to SC2 v BW debates--which leads to red words and a PM you can't respond to. It's very human nature to act resistant to change. Let them go through whatever motions they need to get through to feel better about themselves. It's very human to feel jilted when the people who have the most to gain from liking your new shiny hobby, still can't objectively find a reason to like it try as they might, Let them go through whatever motions they need to feel better about their game. See how condescending it is when people pretend to understand your motivations but clearly don't have a clue? How is it condescending to talk in general terms? People don't like change. When Blizzard begins supporting D3 Esport instead of SC2 esport--SC2 people will whine and talk about how SC2 > D3. It's human nature to feel upset that your hobby is not the one that is supported and popular among your peers. No need to get defensive.
D3 will never be an esports.
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On March 28 2012 00:04 Biglarry wrote:
well guys sc1/brood war is over a decade old. all things come to an end, even good things. and technology has made for a much better handling and looking game. whats so bad about moving on?
Because we don't see SC2 as an improvement. An unworthy successor.
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On March 28 2012 00:04 Biglarry wrote:
well guys sc1/brood war is over a decade old. all things come to an end, even good things. and technology has made for a much better handling and looking game. whats so bad about moving on?
I see we're going around in circles. Read the actual thread before commenting.
ShadeR that really doesn't help either, lol.
It would be nice if an Admin could put some cole notes at the top of this thread for those who don't want to rummage around this thread.
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On March 27 2012 23:42 proteininja wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 23:36 lorkac wrote:On March 27 2012 23:25 StarStruck wrote:On March 27 2012 23:16 karpo wrote:On March 27 2012 23:03 StarStruck wrote:On March 27 2012 22:51 bgx wrote:On March 27 2012 22:48 JustPassingBy wrote:On March 27 2012 22:28 rasers wrote:On March 27 2012 22:23 -Archangel- wrote:On March 27 2012 20:55 BrosephBrostar wrote:
[quote]
Kespa is the best thing to have happened to esports but everyone acts like they're satan incarnate. I guess they're all mad leta fans or something. I agree. While I understand people being mad over pros being treated like slaves and doing nothing but grinding games, but things like strict rules during games are logical. Those rules turned BW from a computer game into legitimate sport. For instance because if you are punished for pausing the game yourself or writing shit in chat your are making an advantage for yourself that is beyond the game. Making breaks like this (which can easily be faked and I am sure sometimes there are in SC2) lets the player with less concentration and stamina rest. So every professionell in any sport is a slave or what? i never understand the slave thing ~~ Many people believe that the rules set by KespA were too restrictive, like requesting a pause is "pp" and if you write "ppp" by accident you lose the game. Seems like a weapon of 90% on this forums. But whats up with the slavery. Its up to teams to dictate how their players train not kespa. 1. The sweatshop/slavery rants are old. You simply don't choose to understand it; that's your problem. 2. You don't even know what KeSPA is. End of discussion right there. You realise the guy you're quoting is on your "side"? Man, some people in this thread seem so defensive they jump at anyone, even people with similar opinions. On March 27 2012 23:03 setzer wrote:On March 27 2012 22:35 izen wrote:On March 27 2012 21:26 EnergizerBunny wrote:
Without BW "e-sports" is effectively dead. Can't wait to see SC2 get replaced by some mobile phone game in the near future. So what you are saying is that games like, Quake, counter strike, painkiller, tf, WC3, unreal never existed? (i can go on and on and on) I came to a conclusion that u sir, no nothing about e-sports. You only see one game that u consider "e-sports" while there is thousand of other games out there is as big as BW is in korea but on a global scale. All i can say about this is: Gonna sit back, relax and wait for more news to pop up about this situation. Please name these other thousand games that are all on television channels, have government support, and have been around for over a decade. There simply isn't a single game that has achieved the mainstream cultural impact BW has and yet people want it killed off to popularize a game that may not even be around in a few years. The original guy said that "without BW esports is effectively dead", something that's clearly not true. The reply was that there's alot of other esport titles and has been since about the same time BW came out. If you want to argue that BW is the only "true" esport then go ahead. I don't know if some games are close to or as big as BW, it's hard to gauge as they are more spread out. Nah, I meant the other guy and I don't call it defensive. I call it educating the uneducated. People have to realize that when you are the cream of the crop it isn't so bad. Gamers like JD were able to continue their studies while being pro gamers. Stork played WoW for 8 months while pro gaming etc. What I find most annoying the SC2 forums is the fact there are many people who speak out of their asses without educating themselves beforehand. On March 27 2012 23:19 Blasterion wrote:
But what if I don't care about esports? Esports can go die in a fire, as long as my game is played. That's why the word has such little weight. Athletic sports stand on their own. You aren't going to watch something that doesn't tickle your fancy. A.) Athletic Sports is actually supported because excelling physically is seen as an accomplishment and hence physical contests are seen as important. This is why popular sports like basketball, futbol, football, rugby, etc... are more popular and get more funding than curling, darts and pool. It's also the reason that games like Magic the Gathering, Counterstrike and DOTA does not have as much societal support--because they're not physical. The attempt to promote esports is the attempt to create a ubiquitous sense of acceptance of electronic sports in general with the hope that it will remove the societal stigma that videogames have. B.) People in the SC2 thread have the right to talk about what the want much like people in the BW thread are welcome to talk about what they want. Why would you go to an SC2 thread and expect SC2 fans to belittle their own game? What about golf?
Golf isn't physical? In order to play a golf tournament, you need to do the following things.
1. Walk around a golf course for 5+ miles a day, 4-5 days in a row, regardless of weather conditions.
2. Hit a ball with to-the-milimeter accuracy with proper power.
Sounds pretty physical to me m8.
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On March 27 2012 23:46 StarStruck wrote:
That wasn't the point I was making. It's the fact that each game stands on it's own.
I understand the sense of acceptance, but that's hodge-podge. Goes back to the interest in sports. Games are similiar in that way. We watch what interests us and not the other way around. They only care about the games that interest them.
As for your latter point. Under TL guidelines. No you don't have the right to say whatever you want. It's a privilege hence, edcuate yourself or ask questions before making yourself look silly.
This has nothing to do with belittling. It has everything to do with educating and informing those about what is happening.
If you weren't aware of the proposed format then you should probably do so now. That's why you see a lot of people from both scenes raise a lot of questions.
Don't make this a BW vs SC2 debate. I'm asking two basics.
A.) the popularity of physical sports as a whole is the reason individual sports are supported.
B.) why would you expect sc2 players to talk bad about their game regardless of what they're comparing it to be it BW, LoL, or flying fucking kites.
C.) hardcore mode pvp death fights in D3 would be an awesome esport 
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It seems that a lot of people do not understand basic logic. Your statements about "Its the greater good for 'E-sport' that BW dies and make ways for other product."
Imagine Football being BW, Basketball being SC2. You are pretty saying that it is would be greater good for 'E-sport' that Football not being played. How is that supporting the scene? So it is better for 'E-sport' by having an 'E-sport' die.....sounds a fallacious argument to me.
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As long as Blizzard is involved, this will never work. Blizzard's goals are fundamentally incompatible with making a long-term competitive game.
We're lucky as it is that Activision doesn't have too much power. Otherwise we'd see expansions every year. But even as it is now, Blizzard will keep releasing a new game/expansion every 3 years at most and try to force people to buy the new game.
BW would never be where it is if SC1 had 2 more expansions constantly fucking the equilibrium up.
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Guys...
There is no point arguing with people who haven't followed or played BW competitively because we can keep saying that SC2 is inferior in almost every aspect to BW all day long, and they won't understand that since they have not the experience people have with BW and they will find that offensive towards a game they like and believe to be good.
So SC2 fans, when a BW fan says SC2 is not living up to its predecessor, we don't say that in blind hate, but with the experience of having played and watched both of them. We are also not afraid of changes, before the release EVERYBODY was hyped with SC2, everyone wanted so bad to play it, but then after we played it, after we watched high level games, we felt something was completely off, and all the hype became frustration.
What sucks is that Blizzard was smartass and every complaint we make today about the game they can use the excuse "we still have expansions to fix that, you will just need to pay extra $40 though". So in a sense, SC2 is "protected" for the next 4-5 years.
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On March 28 2012 00:54 Xiphos wrote:
It seems that a lot of people do not understand basic logic. Your statements about "Its the greater good for 'E-sport' that BW dies and make ways for other product."
Imagine Football being BW, Basketball being SC2. You are pretty saying that it is would be greater good for 'E-sport' that Football not being played. How is that supporting the scene? So it is better for 'E-sport' by having an 'E-sport' die.....sounds a fallacious argument to me.
I ever said BW should die--I'm saying I understand why blizzard is doing what it is doing.
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1196 Posts
On March 27 2012 23:19 lorkac wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2012 18:51 doubleupgradeobbies! wrote:On March 27 2012 16:42 lorkac wrote:On March 27 2012 16:24 karpo wrote:On March 27 2012 16:18 lorkac wrote:On March 27 2012 09:30 Adreme wrote:On March 27 2012 08:22 snakeeyez wrote:
It will be pretty sad to watch the best like flash lose to random pros just because of imbalances and lower skill ceiling. I think .their amount of practice will be wasted after they adapt to the game and see how easy it is in comparison. I love Flash but didnt he just recently lose to 3 protosses who he clearly outclasses. If theres one thing I learned watching e-sports and sports in general its that the best player can lose at any time even when he is/they are better than there opponent(s). I think the extent to which it happens in SC2 is blown way out of proportion. It actually is blown way out of proportion. High winrates and consistent winrates are very much true realities in SC2. Heck, the foreigner Korean gap is so wide right now that unless you're training in the team house ala Huk/Naniwa, you don't really have much of a shot even trading games vs most koreans. Mostly when they say things like "lower skill ceiling" they're more often than not simply lashing out at the popularity of a game that they feel is inferior much akin to how a lot of people lash out and make fun of famous people like Justin Beiber and Kim Kardasian. There really is no reason to be hostile--but since you feel it is unfair that those people are succsfull and not others that are "more deserving," then you end up lashing out and saying things like "slutty (kardasian)" "gay (bieber)" or "lower skill ceiling (SC2)" The talk about "low skill ceiling that's nearly reached" has been around for a year and a half now, yet players now would totally destroy everyone in last years GSL. Let's not get too specific. Details lead to SC2 v BW debates--which leads to red words and a PM you can't respond to. It's very human nature to act resistant to change. Let them go through whatever motions they need to get through to feel better about themselves. It's very human to feel jilted when the people who have the most to gain from liking your new shiny hobby, still can't objectively find a reason to like it try as they might, Let them go through whatever motions they need to feel better about their game. See how condescending it is when people pretend to understand your motivations but clearly don't have a clue? How is it condescending to talk in general terms? People don't like change. When Blizzard begins supporting D3 Esport instead of SC2 esport--SC2 people will whine and talk about how SC2 > D3. It's human nature to feel upset that your hobby is not the one that is supported and popular among your peers. No need to get defensive.
Woah you have it completely wrong. It may be true that people don't generally like change. But to insist that's why we are upset over it, is exactly what I'm talking about.
I don't really give a crap what is supported among my peers, so long as there is sufficient support for what I care about to keep it going. Thats exactly the problem here, I'm not upset that 'my peers' like SC2, I knew that was going to happen when the SC2 beta was announce, heck I expected to be moving with them.
The problem is, there IS enough support to keep BW going, but outside forces, eg Blizzard and the SC2 crowd are aiming to cannibalise the BW infrastructure instead of building their own, and many of 'my peers' in SC2 are hoping for BW to go down as quickly as possible to make this happen.
It's condescending because you implied that nostalgia/conservatism is the reason we hold onto BW, whereas for most people still holding onto BW, it's because even as contemporaries we find BW to be the superior game, and consider SC2 a sequel in name only. We hold on because we prefer what we prefer, not because it's old and familiar.
The exact quote I originally quoted was: 'It's very human nature to act resistant to change. Let them go through whatever motions they need to get through to feel better about themselves.'
I don't see how you could argue that is anything BUT condescending, it is a direct implication that 'change' is the very reason we need to go through whatever motions. And that's exactly why I said he clearly had no idea what our actual motivations are.
I emphasize again, when SC2 was announced, we, the BW crowd were probably the single most excited community about it, and were the collective group who probably tried hardest to like SC2. We don't actually care what everyone else supports nearly as much as you think, we are just upset that the SC2 crowd is intentionally trying to take us down so they can use our infrastructure.
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Will be interesting.........I really hope that BW pros switch over instead of just quitting the gaming scene. Will give an awesome feel to have more Korean Pros and possibly to have the BW pro teams switch over for more GSTL fun.
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EPT
