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On April 01 2012 05:59 celeryman wrote:
The original arguments were sufficient.
Even if you believe what you're writing, the fact you don't even mention the corresponding buffs to the other races makes your argument farcical. The one runner has a sprained ankle and the other one's given a 10 second head start... but sprains aren't that bad... right?
yeah and just forget the nerfs the other races got during the whole time
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On April 01 2012 05:59 celeryman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 05:48 Big J wrote:On April 01 2012 05:40 SupLilSon wrote:On April 01 2012 05:33 Big J wrote:On April 01 2012 05:03 SupLilSon wrote:On April 01 2012 04:56 Big J wrote:On April 01 2012 04:40 Greenei wrote:On April 01 2012 04:36 Big J wrote:
The Terran nerfs making Terran too weak for casuals is such a bullshit theory, that it really hurts reading it.
Since 1.3.0 there were 3 big changes for Terran
Thors - which nerfed a TvP strategy that caduals weren't even using a lot at that time because it was only showcased once or twice
Ghosts - which made TvP a bit harder, but not that much and the snipechange, something that nerfed a strategy that was not useful for everyone under master (and even there I have pretty much only seen 1-2players that were using it effectivly; a lot of people relied on vikings to begin with and most others simply sucked with ghosts compared to what the same investment in more tank/marine would have been able to do) to begin with.
All the other stuff? 5sec rax that gave zerg an extra drone vs 2rax, a little bit of bunker and stim research changes. nothing that would make gameplay harder, just nerfed some allins/timings very slightly.
If anything, please stick to bullshit like stutterstepping is too hard, but dont blame patches that had close to no impact on people that struggle with basic mechanics already. Are you fucking serious? The EMP change was huge. It made TvP lategame much harder. Also Snipe used to be a decent weapon against Broods. Do you even read the thread? Pretty much every Terran has problems with TvP lategame since the patch how can you be so ignorant not to see, that it JUST MIGHT BE because of the patch... Yes EMP was huge, but it basically just means you need to build 3more ghosts and EMP 3times more often - something that has absolutly no impact on casual lategame, because of the scrappy play that makes exact lategame counts already very random. And no, ghosts didnt help you at all vs broodlords, if you were not pretty good with unit control already. Against Ultras it was even harder. And another no, Terrans are not struggling since EMP vs Protoss. Terrans were still doing fine at that time, it's the double forge builds that people have trouble with in the lategame. Maybe the Terran buffs alone didn't hurt Terran TOO much but at the same time Protoss and Zerg received a bunch of buffs. There's other small changes people don't notice much like PDD is a lot worse vs. mutas and broods. You can say people didn't use it, blah blah, but some people did, and having to adjust your strategy every few weeks because of nerfs, buffs, is taxing if you don't have the time to work out builds and practice a lot. And you say most people didn't use ghosts, w/e, the thing is, for a lot of Terrans, most people didn't get much time/opportunity to practice with ghosts and incorporate them into their strategies before they got nerfed into dust. Your lack of knowledge of Terran is painfully obvious in all your posts. Do you actually believe what you are writing? I mean, what forces a bigger adjustment? Huge metagame changes like double upgrade, infestor, roach/bling, immortal bust, warp prism, ultra rushes or the change of PDD, bunker or even the ghost? If you had the time to adapt to the first, you will had no trouble adapting to the second. If you haven't adapted to the first, dont blame the second for struggling, because your opponents have simply improved more than you have and you should struggle really hard. You have to be trolling at this point. wp Out of arguements? The original arguments were sufficient. Even if you believe what you're writing, the fact you don't even mention the corresponding buffs to the other races makes your argument farcical. The one runner has a sprained ankle and the other one's given a 10 second head start... but sprains aren't that bad... right?
Read my original comment on the last page. Did I say anything about buffs? I simply stated that it is wrong to believe the Terran nerfs made Terran too hard. my argument was not, that the patches and the resulting metagame shifts havent had a big impact, my argument was against those who keep on stating that the nerfs made control too hard for casuals.
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On April 01 2012 06:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 05:59 celeryman wrote:On April 01 2012 05:48 Big J wrote:On April 01 2012 05:40 SupLilSon wrote:On April 01 2012 05:33 Big J wrote:On April 01 2012 05:03 SupLilSon wrote:On April 01 2012 04:56 Big J wrote:On April 01 2012 04:40 Greenei wrote:On April 01 2012 04:36 Big J wrote:
The Terran nerfs making Terran too weak for casuals is such a bullshit theory, that it really hurts reading it.
Since 1.3.0 there were 3 big changes for Terran
Thors - which nerfed a TvP strategy that caduals weren't even using a lot at that time because it was only showcased once or twice
Ghosts - which made TvP a bit harder, but not that much and the snipechange, something that nerfed a strategy that was not useful for everyone under master (and even there I have pretty much only seen 1-2players that were using it effectivly; a lot of people relied on vikings to begin with and most others simply sucked with ghosts compared to what the same investment in more tank/marine would have been able to do) to begin with.
All the other stuff? 5sec rax that gave zerg an extra drone vs 2rax, a little bit of bunker and stim research changes. nothing that would make gameplay harder, just nerfed some allins/timings very slightly.
If anything, please stick to bullshit like stutterstepping is too hard, but dont blame patches that had close to no impact on people that struggle with basic mechanics already. Are you fucking serious? The EMP change was huge. It made TvP lategame much harder. Also Snipe used to be a decent weapon against Broods. Do you even read the thread? Pretty much every Terran has problems with TvP lategame since the patch how can you be so ignorant not to see, that it JUST MIGHT BE because of the patch... Yes EMP was huge, but it basically just means you need to build 3more ghosts and EMP 3times more often - something that has absolutly no impact on casual lategame, because of the scrappy play that makes exact lategame counts already very random. And no, ghosts didnt help you at all vs broodlords, if you were not pretty good with unit control already. Against Ultras it was even harder. And another no, Terrans are not struggling since EMP vs Protoss. Terrans were still doing fine at that time, it's the double forge builds that people have trouble with in the lategame. Maybe the Terran buffs alone didn't hurt Terran TOO much but at the same time Protoss and Zerg received a bunch of buffs. There's other small changes people don't notice much like PDD is a lot worse vs. mutas and broods. You can say people didn't use it, blah blah, but some people did, and having to adjust your strategy every few weeks because of nerfs, buffs, is taxing if you don't have the time to work out builds and practice a lot. And you say most people didn't use ghosts, w/e, the thing is, for a lot of Terrans, most people didn't get much time/opportunity to practice with ghosts and incorporate them into their strategies before they got nerfed into dust. Your lack of knowledge of Terran is painfully obvious in all your posts. Do you actually believe what you are writing? I mean, what forces a bigger adjustment? Huge metagame changes like double upgrade, infestor, roach/bling, immortal bust, warp prism, ultra rushes or the change of PDD, bunker or even the ghost? If you had the time to adapt to the first, you will had no trouble adapting to the second. If you haven't adapted to the first, dont blame the second for struggling, because your opponents have simply improved more than you have and you should struggle really hard. You have to be trolling at this point. wp Out of arguements? The original arguments were sufficient. Even if you believe what you're writing, the fact you don't even mention the corresponding buffs to the other races makes your argument farcical. The one runner has a sprained ankle and the other one's given a 10 second head start... but sprains aren't that bad... right? Read my original comment on the last page. Did I say anything about buffs? I simply stated that it is wrong to believe the Terran nerfs made Terran too hard. my argument was not, that the patches and the resulting metagame shifts havent had a big impact, my argument was against those who keep on stating that the nerfs made control too hard for casuals.
and you were wrong, as evidenced by the HUGE lack of terran players on the ladder, anything else einstein?
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TvP is awful right now, but i feel like Blizzard understands whats going on. I feel like everything is getting fixed in HotS.
the biggest problem with TvP is hellions dont deal with chargelots. so against chargelots you are forced into marines no matter what. marines which are then vaporized by storm and collosus.
Blizzard's answer: the battle hellion. perfect for chargelots.
another big problem is that mech just isnt viable in TvP due to chargelots, and having to babysit tanks and nonstop micro them. hence, the battle hellion and warhound.
also bioballs cannot stand toe to toe with protoss late game armies. Terran has to kite with stimpack like a headless chicken to even fight a protoss army. the protoss army is totally a-move friendly and the terran isnt. so Blizzard makes the new bigass Thor.
the situation right now is crappy but at least Blizzard sees that is it crappy and is going to do something about it.
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On April 01 2012 06:41 ellaguru wrote:
TvP is awful right now, but i feel like Blizzard understands whats going on. I feel like everything is getting fixed in HotS.
the biggest problem with TvP is hellions dont deal with chargelots. so against chargelots you are forced into marines no matter what. marines which are then vaporized by storm and collosus.
Blizzard's answer: the battle hellion. perfect for chargelots.
another big problem is that mech just isnt viable in TvP due to chargelots, and having to babysit tanks and nonstop micro them. hence, the battle hellion and warhound.
also bioballs cannot stand toe to toe with protoss late game armies. Terran has to kite with stimpack like a headless chicken to even fight a protoss army. the protoss army is totally a-move friendly and the terran isnt. so Blizzard makes the new bigass Thor.
the situation right now is crappy but at least Blizzard sees that is it crappy and is going to do something about it.
Yeah in the coming 12 months, until then we're stuck playing a shitty matchup which slowly siphons my motivation and I die a little inside 
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im a terran and the only way for me to win a tvp in plat is to go 1/1/1 all in or if im in great form i can prolly win with some drop dmg or nice micro(which rarely happens)
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LOL at the guy talking about EMP.
The difference between EMP and Storm? oh, what, really? The difference is that EMP does no health damage, just shield damage. Storm destroys marine / marauder and KILLS the units, EMP does not. Against mass archon zealot emp is essential but sadly does not do the job as well as is really needed. If you money EMP all of his templars(which is near impossible unless the Protoss is a retard), they just morph into archons and you have no energy left, thus getting stomped.
Lets put a scenario I run into regularly on ladder.. a Protoss does a 2 base all in and you defend it with bunkers. You push out for the counter attack and get stormed to death. It doesn't matter if he has no real army left, because 2-3 templars can kill 50+ marines and marauders with basic micro. Once the storm is used, archon time for the lols, while terran's ghosts are pretty much useless once out of energy.
Then, you have the costs to consider - Templars are a major gas dump for the late game toss army, you can effectively make a game ending unit comp of zealots / archons / templars with storm for very little cost. Terran has to invest in either vikings or ghosts which both cost a lot in comparison, and that is before we even consider how easily toss can tech switch back into colossi or templars or even both. If Terran does not have the perfect composition in time, and perfect engagement, we lose.
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On April 01 2012 06:41 ellaguru wrote:
TvP is awful right now, but i feel like Blizzard understands whats going on. I feel like everything is getting fixed in HotS.
the biggest problem with TvP is hellions dont deal with chargelots. so against chargelots you are forced into marines no matter what. marines which are then vaporized by storm and collosus.
Blizzard's answer: the battle hellion. perfect for chargelots.
another big problem is that mech just isnt viable in TvP due to chargelots, and having to babysit tanks and nonstop micro them. hence, the battle hellion and warhound.
also bioballs cannot stand toe to toe with protoss late game armies. Terran has to kite with stimpack like a headless chicken to even fight a protoss army. the protoss army is totally a-move friendly and the terran isnt. so Blizzard makes the new bigass Thor.
the situation right now is crappy but at least Blizzard sees that is it crappy and is going to do something about it.
I think you have understood the battle hellion wrong... or then I am. The battlewhateverbadunit is going to be extremely slow in 'battle' mode or slower than normal hellions now (if I understood it right).
You are in even bigger trouble with some slow hellions wich cant kite zealots.. dodge storms or escape the never ending doom of colossus range 9 rape. Atleast hellions now are fast and you can kite them VS zealots... problem ofc is that if you kite too far back you essentially pass your own tank lines and leaves tanks open for inevitable doom & despair -> aka you lose all tanks and Gg.
I really dont think the new hellion is any better / or will make meching any better vs P.
Blizzard has stated before that they are not afraid of making the game 'harder' - for example the huge leap of skill what Terrans have to achieve to be able to battle at lower levels compared the other 2 races. Therefore it would be just better if Blizzard made somehow just P harder to play. No need nerfs, no need new units. Just make it harder somehow.
Make charge to be used manually, just like blink ?, so you can select one or many zealots, hit charge button -> and then the unit. So that would make the game harder. Not every protoss would have the speed & APM to make multiple small groups of zealots charge different targets and if they do just mob all Zealots once and hit charge to 1 unit, the charge would be totally wasted.
That charge example might be extremely bad idea thou, might be too hard. But everyone got the point what I was trying to make. Just make it harder. That solves prolly most of the problems to start with.
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On April 01 2012 06:59 malaan wrote:
LOL at the guy talking about EMP.
The difference between EMP and Storm? oh, what, really? The difference is that EMP does no health damage, just shield damage.
Just shield damage? It also takes energy out. High templars without energy are kinda retarded in the middle of a fight. By the time they become archons, it'll probably be too late. 
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On April 01 2012 06:59 malaan wrote:
Lets put a scenario I run into regularly on ladder.. a Protoss does a 2 base all in and you defend it with bunkers. You push out for the counter attack and get stormed to death. It doesn't matter if he has no real army left, because 2-3 templars can kill 50+ marines and marauders with basic micro. Once the storm is used, archon time for the lols, while terran's ghosts are pretty much useless once out of energy.
or you could just macro get ghosts due to scouting what he is up to and kill any follow up, because ghosts are still a fucking good unit.
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On April 01 2012 06:41 ellaguru wrote:
TvP is awful right now, but i feel like Blizzard understands whats going on. I feel like everything is getting fixed in HotS.
the biggest problem with TvP is hellions dont deal with chargelots. so against chargelots you are forced into marines no matter what. marines which are then vaporized by storm and collosus.
Blizzard's answer: the battle hellion. perfect for chargelots.
another big problem is that mech just isnt viable in TvP due to chargelots, and having to babysit tanks and nonstop micro them. hence, the battle hellion and warhound.
also bioballs cannot stand toe to toe with protoss late game armies. Terran has to kite with stimpack like a headless chicken to even fight a protoss army. the protoss army is totally a-move friendly and the terran isnt. so Blizzard makes the new bigass Thor.
the situation right now is crappy but at least Blizzard sees that is it crappy and is going to do something about it.
Blizzard is gonna ruin mech in hots. Ive been preaching it for a while. You know what the best mech unit in the game right now is. Its the thor. Thors are so versatile and great but guess what! Only one thor allowed in hots. Wtf?
Were finally seeing mech in pro play in korea and most of it revolves around the thor. In TvZ Thors are massed prior to tanks to deter mutas while adding in tanks later. In TvT we see thors being crucial in breaking siege lines. In TvP Thors are the only viable mech unit really. We dont see it much in pro play but thor based mech armies with ghosts are actually really good in non pro play. Even Thorzain uses it sometimes i heard.
As a heavy mech user in all matchups i cant imagine having the same success in hots. Sure battle hellions are ok but they arent the beefy killing machine that is the thor. Chargelotz are still gonna ruin battle hellions lol. Your better off trying to kite them in car mode then you are fighting them straight up where tanks are gonna be hitting your own army. HOTS will be the death of mech.
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On April 01 2012 07:05 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 06:59 malaan wrote:
Lets put a scenario I run into regularly on ladder.. a Protoss does a 2 base all in and you defend it with bunkers. You push out for the counter attack and get stormed to death. It doesn't matter if he has no real army left, because 2-3 templars can kill 50+ marines and marauders with basic micro. Once the storm is used, archon time for the lols, while terran's ghosts are pretty much useless once out of energy.
or you could just macro get ghosts due to scouting what he is up to and kill any follow up, because ghosts are still a fucking good unit.
Yes, I agree, but the fact that you can't just counter attack as easily as protoss or zerg can was the point I got at. We cant warp in units across the map, and we dont have speedlings or anything that remotely resembles a counter-attack mechanic.
Ghost is very expensive too and it doesn't bode well when it's role in the matchup is absolutely vital. The nerfs to emp and snipe have really hurt the current SOTG :-(
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My thoughts about TvP lategame:
The thing that swinged TvP lategame to it's current state was protosses realising how strong switching between the 2 AoE techs or having both at once was. It always existed, but it took protosses long time to figure out. There have been a lot of nerfs and buffs, but some of those (mostly emp nerf and toss upgrade buff) would have been totally unnecessary if protosses had discovered the double AoE earlier. Sure those changes would have been needed if protosses still only used one of their tech paths. But the fact, that protoss metagame shift, emp nerf and toss upgrade buff all happened in short period of time, caused the whole lategame balance to change a lot. This started those massive amounts of "need help with TvP" and "toss imba" threads.
I'm pretty sure that most people would agree with toss being the least figured out race for the longest so it's no wonder they found something new and effective. Many people have been wondering if SC2 is being patched too much. Imo in this case the answer is yes and I think that tosses were given help that they didn't need. Blizzard simply changed too many things too quickly.
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On April 01 2012 07:02 iksi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 06:41 ellaguru wrote:
TvP is awful right now, but i feel like Blizzard understands whats going on. I feel like everything is getting fixed in HotS.
the biggest problem with TvP is hellions dont deal with chargelots. so against chargelots you are forced into marines no matter what. marines which are then vaporized by storm and collosus.
Blizzard's answer: the battle hellion. perfect for chargelots.
another big problem is that mech just isnt viable in TvP due to chargelots, and having to babysit tanks and nonstop micro them. hence, the battle hellion and warhound.
also bioballs cannot stand toe to toe with protoss late game armies. Terran has to kite with stimpack like a headless chicken to even fight a protoss army. the protoss army is totally a-move friendly and the terran isnt. so Blizzard makes the new bigass Thor.
the situation right now is crappy but at least Blizzard sees that is it crappy and is going to do something about it. I think you have understood the battle hellion wrong... or then I am. The battlewhateverbadunit is going to be extremely slow in 'battle' mode or slower than normal hellions now (if I understood it right). You are in even bigger trouble with some slow hellions wich cant kite zealots.. dodge storms or escape the never ending doom of colossus range 9 rape. Atleast hellions now are fast and you can kite them VS zealots... problem ofc is that if you kite too far back you essentially pass your own tank lines and leaves tanks open for inevitable doom & despair -> aka you lose all tanks and Gg. I really dont think the new hellion is any better / or will make meching any better vs P. Blizzard has stated before that they are not afraid of making the game 'harder' - for example the huge leap of skill what Terrans have to achieve to be able to battle at lower levels compared the other 2 races. Therefore it would be just better if Blizzard made somehow just P harder to play. No need nerfs, no need new units. Just make it harder somehow. Make charge to be used manually, just like blink ?, so you can select one or many zealots, hit charge button -> and then the unit. So that would make the game harder. Not every protoss would have the speed & APM to make multiple small groups of zealots charge different targets and if they do just mob all Zealots once and hit charge to 1 unit, the charge would be totally wasted. That charge example might be extremely bad idea thou, might be too hard. But everyone got the point what I was trying to make. Just make it harder. That solves prolly most of the problems to start with.
I think the battle hellion will help, as well as removing the energy bar from thors, but that still doesnt solve the tech switch issue that plagues this game so badly, and especially when playing mech. If they go colossus, you HAVE to get vikings, if they go templar, you HAVE to get ghosts, and when youre running around with 12 ghosts they switch to colossus, or flying around 26 supply of crappy vikings and then they stop making colossus... Its like were pigeonhold into making these units that have only ONE good purpose and are completely worthless against anything else (ghost=emp, viking=colossus) We just need more options for dealing with colossus and broodlords then vikings, and making the ghost not suck so badly in general
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Man, I love playing Terran, but it feels so much harder than Z. I can't honestly comment on P, but from what I've seen, all of the races /seem/ balanced, but there are situations where each race shines.
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On April 01 2012 07:15 XquisiteWretch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 07:02 iksi wrote:On April 01 2012 06:41 ellaguru wrote:
TvP is awful right now, but i feel like Blizzard understands whats going on. I feel like everything is getting fixed in HotS.
the biggest problem with TvP is hellions dont deal with chargelots. so against chargelots you are forced into marines no matter what. marines which are then vaporized by storm and collosus.
Blizzard's answer: the battle hellion. perfect for chargelots.
another big problem is that mech just isnt viable in TvP due to chargelots, and having to babysit tanks and nonstop micro them. hence, the battle hellion and warhound.
also bioballs cannot stand toe to toe with protoss late game armies. Terran has to kite with stimpack like a headless chicken to even fight a protoss army. the protoss army is totally a-move friendly and the terran isnt. so Blizzard makes the new bigass Thor.
the situation right now is crappy but at least Blizzard sees that is it crappy and is going to do something about it. I think you have understood the battle hellion wrong... or then I am. The battlewhateverbadunit is going to be extremely slow in 'battle' mode or slower than normal hellions now (if I understood it right). You are in even bigger trouble with some slow hellions wich cant kite zealots.. dodge storms or escape the never ending doom of colossus range 9 rape. Atleast hellions now are fast and you can kite them VS zealots... problem ofc is that if you kite too far back you essentially pass your own tank lines and leaves tanks open for inevitable doom & despair -> aka you lose all tanks and Gg. I really dont think the new hellion is any better / or will make meching any better vs P. Blizzard has stated before that they are not afraid of making the game 'harder' - for example the huge leap of skill what Terrans have to achieve to be able to battle at lower levels compared the other 2 races. Therefore it would be just better if Blizzard made somehow just P harder to play. No need nerfs, no need new units. Just make it harder somehow. Make charge to be used manually, just like blink ?, so you can select one or many zealots, hit charge button -> and then the unit. So that would make the game harder. Not every protoss would have the speed & APM to make multiple small groups of zealots charge different targets and if they do just mob all Zealots once and hit charge to 1 unit, the charge would be totally wasted. That charge example might be extremely bad idea thou, might be too hard. But everyone got the point what I was trying to make. Just make it harder. That solves prolly most of the problems to start with. I think the battle hellion will help, as well as removing the energy bar from thors, but that still doesnt solve the tech switch issue that plagues this game so badly, and especially when playing mech. If they go colossus, you HAVE to get vikings, if they go templar, you HAVE to get ghosts, and when youre running around with 12 ghosts they switch to colossus, or flying around 26 supply of crappy vikings and then they stop making colossus... Its like were pigeonhold into making these units that have only ONE good purpose and are completely worthless against anything else (ghost=emp, viking=colossus) We just need more options for dealing with colossus and broodlords then vikings, and making the ghost not suck so badly in general
Yes, I agree & there is propably even more problems with the match up than just those 2 what you and I mentioned. But my point in original post was just to discuss about hellions spesificly. Nothing else. Would be too long wall of text to try nitpick everything in 1 post. So about only hellions.
I still stand by my beliefs until the day comes and I see someone playing those slow battle hellions to any degree of success VS fast charging aoe stomping everything melting P army. I just dont see it happening. But I guess only time will tell.
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On April 01 2012 07:28 iksi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 07:15 XquisiteWretch wrote:On April 01 2012 07:02 iksi wrote:On April 01 2012 06:41 ellaguru wrote:
TvP is awful right now, but i feel like Blizzard understands whats going on. I feel like everything is getting fixed in HotS.
the biggest problem with TvP is hellions dont deal with chargelots. so against chargelots you are forced into marines no matter what. marines which are then vaporized by storm and collosus.
Blizzard's answer: the battle hellion. perfect for chargelots.
another big problem is that mech just isnt viable in TvP due to chargelots, and having to babysit tanks and nonstop micro them. hence, the battle hellion and warhound.
also bioballs cannot stand toe to toe with protoss late game armies. Terran has to kite with stimpack like a headless chicken to even fight a protoss army. the protoss army is totally a-move friendly and the terran isnt. so Blizzard makes the new bigass Thor.
the situation right now is crappy but at least Blizzard sees that is it crappy and is going to do something about it. I think you have understood the battle hellion wrong... or then I am. The battlewhateverbadunit is going to be extremely slow in 'battle' mode or slower than normal hellions now (if I understood it right). You are in even bigger trouble with some slow hellions wich cant kite zealots.. dodge storms or escape the never ending doom of colossus range 9 rape. Atleast hellions now are fast and you can kite them VS zealots... problem ofc is that if you kite too far back you essentially pass your own tank lines and leaves tanks open for inevitable doom & despair -> aka you lose all tanks and Gg. I really dont think the new hellion is any better / or will make meching any better vs P. Blizzard has stated before that they are not afraid of making the game 'harder' - for example the huge leap of skill what Terrans have to achieve to be able to battle at lower levels compared the other 2 races. Therefore it would be just better if Blizzard made somehow just P harder to play. No need nerfs, no need new units. Just make it harder somehow. Make charge to be used manually, just like blink ?, so you can select one or many zealots, hit charge button -> and then the unit. So that would make the game harder. Not every protoss would have the speed & APM to make multiple small groups of zealots charge different targets and if they do just mob all Zealots once and hit charge to 1 unit, the charge would be totally wasted. That charge example might be extremely bad idea thou, might be too hard. But everyone got the point what I was trying to make. Just make it harder. That solves prolly most of the problems to start with. I think the battle hellion will help, as well as removing the energy bar from thors, but that still doesnt solve the tech switch issue that plagues this game so badly, and especially when playing mech. If they go colossus, you HAVE to get vikings, if they go templar, you HAVE to get ghosts, and when youre running around with 12 ghosts they switch to colossus, or flying around 26 supply of crappy vikings and then they stop making colossus... Its like were pigeonhold into making these units that have only ONE good purpose and are completely worthless against anything else (ghost=emp, viking=colossus) We just need more options for dealing with colossus and broodlords then vikings, and making the ghost not suck so badly in general Yes, I agree & there is propably even more problems with the match up than just those 2 what you and I mentioned. But my point in original post was just to discuss about hellions spesificly. Nothing else. Would be too long wall of text to try nitpick everything in 1 post. So about only hellions. I still stand by my beliefs until the day comes and I see someone playing those slow battle hellions to any degree of success VS fast charging aoe stomping everything melting P army. I just dont see it happening. But I guess only time will tell.
Probably, even if they are good they will probably just nerf them and make them worthless like they do everything else
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On April 01 2012 06:02 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 05:59 celeryman wrote:
The original arguments were sufficient.
Even if you believe what you're writing, the fact you don't even mention the corresponding buffs to the other races makes your argument farcical. The one runner has a sprained ankle and the other one's given a 10 second head start... but sprains aren't that bad... right? yeah and just forget the nerfs the other races got during the whole time
The other races didnt get anywhere near the amount or have the extreme detrimental affect of the terran nerfs, even stevie wonder could see that
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On April 01 2012 07:08 RedMosquito wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2012 06:41 ellaguru wrote:
TvP is awful right now, but i feel like Blizzard understands whats going on. I feel like everything is getting fixed in HotS.
the biggest problem with TvP is hellions dont deal with chargelots. so against chargelots you are forced into marines no matter what. marines which are then vaporized by storm and collosus.
Blizzard's answer: the battle hellion. perfect for chargelots.
another big problem is that mech just isnt viable in TvP due to chargelots, and having to babysit tanks and nonstop micro them. hence, the battle hellion and warhound.
also bioballs cannot stand toe to toe with protoss late game armies. Terran has to kite with stimpack like a headless chicken to even fight a protoss army. the protoss army is totally a-move friendly and the terran isnt. so Blizzard makes the new bigass Thor.
the situation right now is crappy but at least Blizzard sees that is it crappy and is going to do something about it. Blizzard is gonna ruin mech in hots. Ive been preaching it for a while. You know what the best mech unit in the game right now is. Its the thor. Thors are so versatile and great but guess what! Only one thor allowed in hots. Wtf? Were finally seeing mech in pro play in korea and most of it revolves around the thor. In TvZ Thors are massed prior to tanks to deter mutas while adding in tanks later. In TvT we see thors being crucial in breaking siege lines. In TvP Thors are the only viable mech unit really. We dont see it much in pro play but thor based mech armies with ghosts are actually really good in non pro play. Even Thorzain uses it sometimes i heard. As a heavy mech user in all matchups i cant imagine having the same success in hots. Sure battle hellions are ok but they arent the beefy killing machine that is the thor. Chargelotz are still gonna ruin battle hellions lol. Your better off trying to kite them in car mode then you are fighting them straight up where tanks are gonna be hitting your own army. HOTS will be the death of mech.
Sorry if this is a double post, but do you realize that the Warhound is essentially the Goliath, which is essentially a cross between a Thor and a smaller unit? I personally can't wait to see how quicker this makes Mech play in HotS. :D
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also in starcraft the are less and less terrans, we are a race thats dying out
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EPT
