EPTI'm really not sure how we can reconcile this problem, to be honest.
Where did all of the terrans go? - Page 105
| Forum Index > SC2 General |
|
david0925
212 Posts
I'm really not sure how we can reconcile this problem, to be honest. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 21 2012 10:39 Yosho wrote: You mean me talking about this" Terran pro's are switching races, Protoss dominating terrans in most recent tournaments, Win ratios dropping dramatically the further the game goes on. Terran the least represented and most APM / Micro / Multi tasking intensive race." None of that you could comment on? Most of your posts as sarcastic and uninformative or genially lack of experience based. Sometimes I severally wish TL put a stop on some sc2 posters and but a special section based on current ranks etc. That way we don't have low ranked people trying to argue with high ranked people on balance issues. Yeah, those arguments don't hold a lot of weight. I don't know of any of the top 50 professional players switching races. Also, the only place where I have heard that terran in the most APM / Micro / Multi tasking intensive race is this thread and other like it. No professional is saying that any of the other races are easier or have said anything to back up that statement. I also do not count rage filled tweets that are sent out right after a major loss. I have review and watched the majority of recent tournaments and terrans seemed to do just fine against all races. I will agree with you that TL should filter who can talk about balanced. But I would place the bar much higher that you. Really, the only people who are qualified to talk about balance are the professionals. It would limit the bull shit that is this thread, where amateur players who are unwilling to commit the time to get better at the game whine about the match up that is giving them the most trouble. | ||
|
_Search_
Canada180 Posts
Due to blizzards ridiculous over-nerfing and failure to address the key problems in every matchup (Terran has no late game, Zerg is incredibly easy to beat if they don't know what you're doing, impossible to beat if they do, tier 1 is overall far too strong, not enough of a defenders advantage so rush builds and mindless aggression is far too successful, meta game creativity goes mostly unrewarded) when I moved to Japan I switched to Zerg. I've only been playing a month and a half on the Korean ladder but I'm getting close to the skill level I was at as Terran. Since I switched I immediately felt a decrease in difficulty against Protoss. Unless they get more than 3 colossus on the field I find ZvP much more playable. Terran is a silly joke for Zerg and unless they get lucky with a cheesy rush (every game on the Korean server involves some sort of dumbass rush) then I easily roll them. ZvZ is my hardest match because I haven't been playing long enough to really understand it, and it really feels like a total coin flip. I don't ever see myself switching back to Terran. I can play against other players, I can't play against blizzards balance team. | ||
|
Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On March 21 2012 10:58 david0925 wrote: It's a fact that there are the least number of Terran across the ladder, and it's also a fact that there are constantly more Terran players in GSL code S. I'm really not sure how we can reconcile this problem, to be honest. Terran in code S because they are manly, They've transcended the state of Pro-gamers already, Terran players have courage. Those Code S players are just more Courageous than your regular Terran players. | ||
|
HejaBVB
Germany125 Posts
Sometimes I severally wish TL put a stop on some sc2 posters and but a special section based on current ranks etc. That way we don't have low ranked people trying to argue with high ranked people on balance issues. There is no discussion! Look at foreign tournaments, when was the last time a non-korean terran won anything? Foreign Terran-Pros struggle in TvP and even Silver-Leaguers struggle, Terrans struggle from Bronze to GM in TvP, so there is no discussion about it. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:02 Blasterion wrote: Terran in code S because they are manly, They've transcended the state of Pro-gamers already, Terran players have courage. Those Code S players are just more Courageous than your regular Terran players. It is true. That is what NA and EU terrans lack. Courageous hearts to fight the cowardly protoss and their "A-move". Without those, they have not fighting spirit or the ability to counter the broken warp in. NA and EU terrans must fight their courage. | ||
|
Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:03 HejaBVB wrote: There is no discussion! Look at foreign tournaments, when was the last time a non-korean terran won anything? Foreign Terran-Pros struggle in TvP and even Silver-Leaguers struggle, Terrans struggle from Bronze to GM in TvP, so there is no discussion about it. Koreans have courage. We foreigners lack that. We should train harder and have more courage. That will fix it! | ||
|
ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Terrans can eco better than Protoss with mules and flying command centers. Barracks and Starports can make two (or three) of their best units two at a time. Note that you also can drop an OC anywhere in your bases and use it for scv prod/scans/supply drops/mules, and then fly it to a new expansion when you want, and an extra nexus is pretty useless except to manner your opponent. Plus, their units are generally cheaper. Protoss arguably eco's slower, or tries to catch up with chronoboost which has the opportunity costs for upgrades, research or faster units. Protoss units are also more expensive in general. So sure, cost efficiency is an issue. But is it that much of an issue that a Terran army, which should invariably be larger, probably equal or better upgraded, and built to counter the Protoss (because of the pretty awesome scan mechanic I've heard of), will lose a lot of the time? I'm just playing devil's advocate. Like I said, I'm primarily Protoss, but I pulled these out of my ass just now. | ||
|
Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:08 ticklishmusic wrote: So from the flip side, I don't understand is why people complain Protoss is OP. Because they lack courage. Playing Terran is a courageous commitment. You'll need courage to do well with Terran. No courage, no victory. | ||
|
ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Everyone on ladder has 50% winrate, except top GM, and the pit of hell of bottom bronze. That includes Terran players. On this thread, and many others, Terrans ALWAYS claim having less than 40% winrate in TvP. So one of two things (or the two at the same time of course): either they're fucking good at TvZ (if so we have to ask if TvZ is not too T favored), or they all have ridiculously high TvT winrate, which is absurd. My guess is that people on TL don't represent the major part of the SC2 players, they represent those who invest more and try to improve earnestly and shit and maybe go the late game more often than not. So the Terran part of TL will indeed feel a little desperate against the other two races. Blizzard didn't say anything on TvP (yet) winrates on ladder, which means the rest of the Terrans are fine in TvP, probably one basing every single game (there are many notorious ladder players that are known to only 1 base, Terran is the only race which allows such a success with consistent one basing, Protoss at least has to make it a bit unpredictable) There will always be a problem when Terran can pick up so many easy wins early game, this will block Blizzard to act and try to fix their weak lategame. When I played Protoss on ladder, Terran was by far the cheesiest race. God those guys like their all ins, and I can't blame them, it's always fun proxying some shit on the map, pulling SCVs or attacking with every Terran unit on 1 base :D | ||
|
NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:12 ZenithM wrote: There's still something I don't understand. Everyone on ladder has 50% winrate, except top GM, and the pit of hell of bottom bronze. That includes Terran players. On this thread, and many others, Terrans ALWAYS claim having less than 40% winrate in TvP. So one of two things (or the two at the same time of course): either they're fucking good at TvZ (if so we have to ask if TvZ is not too T favored), or they all have ridiculously high TvT winrate, which is absurd. My guess is that people on TL don't represent the major part of the SC2 players, they represent those who invest more and try to improve earnestly and shit and maybe go the late game more often than not. So the Terran part of TL will indeed feel a little desperate against the other two races. Blizzard didn't say anything on TvP (yet) winrates on ladder, which means the rest of the Terrans are fine in TvP, probably one basing every single game (there are many notorious ladder players that are known to only 1 base, Terran is the only race which allows such a success with consistent one basing, Protoss at least has to make it a bit unpredictable) There will always be a problem when Terran can pick up so many easy wins early game, this will block Blizzard to act and try to fix their weak lategame. When I played Protoss on ladder, Terran was by far the cheesiest race. God those guys like their all ins, and I can't blame them, it's always fun proxying some shit on the map, pulling SCVs or attacking with every Terran unit on 1 base :D 50% winrate is no result of race balance, but of the system. Even if you are bad and nearly lose every TvP against players that are equally good you will eventually win as soon as the system places you against an inferior player. | ||
|
david0925
212 Posts
So from the flip side, I don't understand is why people complain Protoss is OP It all winds down to AoE's being too effective in the game (which is why people also complain about Banelings and Fungals, especially against low-HP races like Terran and Zerg), and to a lesser extent Warp-ins turning the tide when the battle came out close. It's really a mechanic problem when they copy/pasted damage/health numbers from SC1 and expected it to work out with the improved AI (because it clearly did not) | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:12 ZenithM wrote: There's still something I don't understand. Everyone on ladder has 50% winrate, except top GM, and the pit of hell of bottom bronze. That includes Terran players. On this thread, and many others, Terrans ALWAYS claim having less than 40% winrate in TvP. So one of two things (or the two at the same time of course): either they're fucking good at TvZ (if so we have to ask if TvZ is not too T favored), or they all have ridiculously high TvT winrate, which is absurd. My guess is that people on TL don't represent the major part of the SC2 players, they represent those who invest more and try to improve earnestly and shit and maybe go the late game more often than not. So the Terran part of TL will indeed feel a little desperate against the other two races. Blizzard didn't say anything on TvP (yet) winrates on ladder, which means the rest of the Terrans are fine in TvP, probably one basing every single game (there are many notorious ladder players that are known to only 1 base, Terran is the only race which allows such a success with consistent one basing, Protoss at least has to make it a bit unpredictable) There will always be a problem when Terran can pick up so many easy wins early game, this will block Blizzard to act and try to fix their weak lategame. When I played Protoss on ladder, Terran was by far the cheesiest race. God those guys like their all ins, and I can't blame them, it's always fun proxying some shit on the map, pulling SCVs or attacking with every Terran unit on 1 base :D If your remember with the MLG PPV came out and many people posted they had brought gold passes and felt cheated. A few days later Sundance game on LO3 and said "...lot claimed they where gold members. Let me tell you, most of them are not." There may be a bit of that going on here as well. | ||
|
ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:13 Type|NarutO wrote: 50% winrate is no result of race balance, but of the system. Even if you are bad and nearly lose every TvP against players that are equally good you will eventually win as soon as the system places you against an inferior player. Lol, obviously, that's my point. Regardless, it's just not possible for every Terran to have a distribution of winrates like (30% TvP, 70% TvZ, 50% TvT) without Blizzard noticing it strongly. Your MMR is global and not per matchup, so it's perfectly possible for someone to consistenly have a bad matchup (sub 40%) and good matchups to catch up in overall winrate. He will be matched with P players of his overall MMR, who are probably too much to handle for him, and those P won't grow weaker as long as he's doing more than fine in other matchups. What I'm saying is that it's not possible for EVERYONE to have the same weak matchup without Blizzard fixing it immediately. Either they're about to act, or there is a small part of the ladder pool that still owns at TvP to compensate for those who do bad at it. | ||
|
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:19 ZenithM wrote: Lol, obviously, that's my point. Regardless, it's just not possible for every Terran to have a distribution of winrates like (30% TvP, 70% TvZ, 50% TvT) without Blizzard noticing it strongly. Your MMR is global and not per matchup, so it's perfectly possible for someone to have a bad matchup and good matchups to catch up in overall winrate. What I'm saying is that it's not possible for EVERYONE to have the same weak matchup without Blizzard fixing it immediately. Either they're about to act, or there is a small part of the ladder pool that still owns at TvP to compensate for those who do bad at it. That group of terrans is not posting in this thread. They are busy crushing protoss hopes and dreams. | ||
|
NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:19 ZenithM wrote: Lol, obviously, that's my point. Regardless, it's just not possible for every Terran to have a distribution of winrates like (30% TvP, 70% TvZ, 50% TvT) without Blizzard noticing it strongly. Your MMR is global and not per matchup, so it's perfectly possible for someone to have a bad matchup and good matchups to catch up in overall winrate. What I'm saying is that it's not possible for EVERYONE to have the same weak matchup without Blizzard fixing it immediately. Either they're about to act, or there is a small part of the ladder pool that still owns at TvP to compensate for those who do bad at it. Well its just not that easy. How is Blizzard going to buff the lower-level players while not making it GomTvT again? Its just very tricky. I don't think the match up is broken, I just think its very hard if you are not mechanically clean. | ||
|
Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:21 Plansix wrote: That group of terrans is not posting in this thread. They are busy crushing protoss hopes and dreams. Those are the courageous Terrans | ||
|
ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:21 Type|NarutO wrote: Well its just not that easy. How is Blizzard going to buff the lower-level players while not making it GomTvT again? Its just very tricky. I don't think the match up is broken, I just think its very hard if you are not mechanically clean. They actually will be forced to do something if every T below high masters really has a 30% winrate TvP. It's just not acceptable for a game to have that state of balance on its ladder, regardless of how pros do. What I'm guessing is that it's not true at all, and TvP has not that bad of a winrate on ladder. | ||
|
NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:25 ZenithM wrote: They actually will be forced to do something if every T below high masters really has a 30% winrate TvP. It's just not acceptable for a game to have that state of balance on its ladder, regardless of how pros do. What I'm guessing is that it's not true at all, and TvP has not that bad of a winrate on ladder. If the whole ladder would have 30% Terran vs Protoss winrate, Blizzard would step in and do something. Thats absolutely correct. That doesn't make it right in my opinion. Balance should always happen at the highest level of play. | ||
|
Twistacles
Canada1327 Posts
On March 21 2012 11:12 ZenithM wrote: There's still something I don't understand. Everyone on ladder has 50% winrate, except top GM, and the pit of hell of bottom bronze. That includes Terran players. On this thread, and many others, Terrans ALWAYS claim having less than 40% winrate in TvP. So one of two things (or the two at the same time of course): either they're fucking good at TvZ (if so we have to ask if TvZ is not too T favored), or they all have ridiculously high TvT winrate, which is absurd. My guess is that people on TL don't represent the major part of the SC2 players, they represent those who invest more and try to improve earnestly and shit and maybe go the late game more often than not. So the Terran part of TL will indeed feel a little desperate against the other two races. Blizzard didn't say anything on TvP (yet) winrates on ladder, which means the rest of the Terrans are fine in TvP, probably one basing every single game (there are many notorious ladder players that are known to only 1 base, Terran is the only race which allows such a success with consistent one basing, Protoss at least has to make it a bit unpredictable) There will always be a problem when Terran can pick up so many easy wins early game, this will block Blizzard to act and try to fix their weak lategame. When I played Protoss on ladder, Terran was by far the cheesiest race. God those guys like their all ins, and I can't blame them, it's always fun proxying some shit on the map, pulling SCVs or attacking with every Terran unit on 1 base :D It's pretty simple. TvT and TvZ are actually balanced, but since you lose to protoss at about your mmr, if you face enough in a row, you tank down and start facing worse Ts/Zs that you absolutely roflstomp. Then face a protoss and lose. I can beat top 25 Masters T/Z but I can lose to Diamond P. this is reflected in most of my T friends, where one is high masters and consistently beats GM T/Z but loses to top25~ P | ||
| ||
