Where did all of the terrans go? - Page 103

On March 21 2012 06:14 Kakaru2 wrote:
hzflank, that's exactly why the root of the problems lie with the bad design of the races, specifically toss. Forcefield makes early units to be completely underpowered, and warpgate makes moot defender's advanatage, specially at 200/200 5 bases play.
This game was designed around steppes of war and slags pit. 1/2 base versus 1/2 base. On those maps there was no late game.

On March 20 2012 23:20 Bagi wrote:

Okay, let me just point out one thing as an example of what might be wrong with your train of thought. You call protoss drops "crazy warp prism harass" and then call terran drops "throwaway". Now correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can tell neither drop is much harder to execute than the other. Yet you make one appear much more difficult and stressful than the other.

So how am I going to read this and not think you are biased?

On March 21 2012 06:26 joeschmo wrote:



So you believe the games were never supposed to reach late game, ever? If balance was 100% indicative of this, we would assume they wouldn't have ever added in Tal'darim, then.

On March 21 2012 06:36 EienShinwa wrote:
I feel like the warp game mechanic fucks up everything. The simple fact that in lategame, you can remax your army in a couple of seconds alone proves that protoss has an advantage late game. Even early game, any sort of aggression from the Protoss renders the Terran player afraid, helpless, and on the defense. All Terran hopes to do is scout for any all-in or aggressive pushes by Protoss and defend it - never to counter it. And as long as the Protoss has good map awareness, he can deny all scouting scvs, forcing terran to scan. It just makes the Terran feel always vulnerable and you get the feeling of "Must be ready for anything."

I don't mean to come off whiny or cry "Protoss OP", but I'm just stating how I feel when I play TvP. There is bias, sure. Maybe it's this type of attitude and thinking that traps Terran players into getting the mindset that Protoss is so easy.

On March 21 2012 06:49 joeschmo wrote:
Maybe the 6m1g would combat the large maps & bring it to how it's "supposed" to be, you think?

On March 21 2012 06:08 hzflank wrote:


Look at it from the protoss point of view. We know that if storms are not avoided terran loses, but on the other hand for the first 15 minutes of the game protoss can lose by misplacing a forcefield or by not splitting his army correctly for drop defense. The game is extremely unforgiving for all races in all matchups.

On March 21 2012 00:02 petro1987 wrote:


Could you please post your TvP and PvT winrates. It's nice to have some numerical data to analyze.

On March 21 2012 07:41 Scila wrote:
The game is in a pretty poor state of balance right now, and it surprises me that so many people think that just because there's roughly 50% win ratios in every match up, everything is fine. They don't look at the fact that different races have DRASTICALLY different win % at different stages of the game, and that there are glaring problems with almost every race.

Terran has a high win ratio against zerg in the early and mid game, while in the late game the win % falls off dramatically. Terran has NO answer to Broodlord/infestor and even worse, no answer to switching between Blord/ Ultra. Even with pre-nerf ghosts, it was very difficult to deal with Infestor/T3 unless you had amazing army control like Thorzain.

Similarly in TvP, Terran has the upper hand in the mid game, but terran win ratios fall off dramatically in the late game (past 15 mins or so). Terran has NO answer to Colossus/HT/gateway deathball. Unless you have godly micro (like Korean Terrans) to come out SIGNIFICANTLY ahead after a 200/200 fight, you will probably lose. Even the Koreans are having trouble doing this now.

Then there's the fact that Terran HAS TO be played aggressive/harass-oriented versus P and Z, where as P and Z can play aggressive OR passive, which is a massive design flaw.

Furthermore, for Protoss, the only way to deal with Blord/Infestor is a gimmick that was never intended by Blizzard. Imagine if there was no Vortex...Protoss would be in the same boat as Terran is right now as soon as they reached the late game versus Zerg.

Protoss is also currently being rewarded for a very passive style of play in both matchups, but more so PvT, where they can quite safely get to 3/3 upgrades and a strong deathball.

With Zerg, the biggest issue imo is the power of Infestor/Broodlord as mentioned above, which is problematic in both TvZ and PvZ.

What Blizzard has been doing for the past few months with their "balance" patches is cover up the actual core problems and tweak things that give them those nice 50% numbers that people like. I still love to watch this game played at the highest level, but these glaring problems made it difficult to enjoy.

On March 21 2012 07:43 Ksquared wrote:
It seems all gold terrans like to get siege tanks in their TvPs. I always make the mistake of attacking into them too lol

On March 21 2012 06:50 Plansix wrote:


I think you are correct and people are also are trapped in the idea that they cannot beat protoss late game, ever. Without a clear directly or idea of how to play the late game, terran players just assume that they should do the same things they were doing in the mid-game. I had a similar issue with zerg when 3 gate, sentry expand was being crushed by early ling/roach timings and the map pool did not allow for a lot of FFE. I wanted to GG every game I got zerg on ladder.

I would also say protoss feel they need to be ready for anything against terran as well. I personally have lost tons of games to a really well timed drop right when I am trying to take my third. Or to some effective banshee harass while preparing for the 1/1/1 that I know is comming. Or I looked away for a second to warp in some units and my colossi were out of position when the terran hit.

The grass is always greener.

On March 21 2012 06:37 ticklishmusic wrote:


Haha, well I guess my diction shows my bias doesn't it?

Well, what I meant is that a Terran drop is much easier for me to manage, and that I don't mind losing them as much because they are, in my mind, cheaper. As Protoss, I fly the warp prism in and have to warp in, tell the units to move to the mineral line and then hold them there. As Terran, I just drop right behind the mineral line. When I see the medivac dot about in position, I do my attack with my main army, then after a couple seconds of playing with my main army, I stim my drop. It's arguably more difficult to get a warp prism harass done in the same time (or clicks) as a drop in my opinion. I'll grant my Terran drops are pretty lazy/ sloppily done though-- after all, Terran is not my main race.

Also, remember even though warp prisms can be chronoboosted and don't cost gas, they build one at a time. I guess that's slightly relevant.

My winrate is about the same both ways-- probably a tiny bit under 50%. PvT has been a bad matchup for me for me since BW, lol. Don't know why, don't know how. I think it's been getting better lately though. My PvP is still around 55% and my PvZ is around 70%. Hipster win-rates ftw.

Interestingly, I think my experience reflects the trend of Terran being strong in the midgame and Protoss being strong in the lategame.

On March 21 2012 08:14 Gimix wrote:


This sums up everything pretty well. The game is very unbalanced, but everything has become so normal we don't notice it anymore.

That said, a large number of problems could be fixed with 2 very simple implementations

1. Fungal should not be a snare AND do massive damage. One or the either. Given how the snare combos well with other zerg abilites I feel that should be kept and the damage greatly reduced.

2. Storm damage needs to be decreased. This is the primary problem in TvP. Essentially, a game long advantage is lost in 2 seconds because you failed to emp one of your opponents HTs. That this is even possible means TvP is essentially a pointless matchup until one final engagement.

Warpin is also a fairly broken mechanic in conjuction with warp prisms. Unlike any other race's dropping mechanic, the Protoss does not need to 'sacrifice' his standing army for the potential to drop. All he needs to do is GET THE WARPPRISM INTO YOUR BASE. That's it. If this happens lategame TvP as you engage the main protoss army you lose. End of story. There is no answer to 30 zealots warping instantly into your production line even if you decimate the protoss army.

On March 21 2012 08:51 Kharnage wrote:


Sorry, on the warp prism: If the protoss player is sitting on 140 supply, total, and you haven't pushed in and crushed his army then you're doing it wrong. warping in 30 zealots requires the protoss player to be on 140 supply. Plus you can lift all your buildings, kill his base and then clean up the zealots. All his warpgates are on cool down, his army is dead except for 30 zealots that can't hit flying buildings.
Plus the protoss player just dumped 3k minerals into that warp in. Chances are he won't be able to afford shit to defend his own base.

On March 21 2012 08:44 willoc wrote:


So basically you're lazy terran drops demand less concentration that your not-lazy protoss drops. I wonder why? Ever think about warping in your units on the mineral line so you don't have to tell them to move after?