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Random masters player.
Terran is far harder for me. I feel like T late game is complete garbage though and always feel like I am playing against a clock (except TvT). That probably affects the way I play and feel. With Z/P I feel like I can do any strategy (cheese, macro, 2base) and be successful. With T I feel like I have to either all-in or outplay the opponent.
Balanced or not, it's just not fun for me. I'm seriously considering just switching to Z or P even though I've played random since beta.
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On March 20 2012 23:58 oxxo wrote:
Random masters player.
Terran is far harder for me. I feel like T late game is complete garbage though and always feel like I am playing against a clock (except TvT). That probably affects the way I play and feel. With Z/P I feel like I can do any strategy (cheese, macro, 2base) and be successful. With T I feel like I have to either all-in or outplay the opponent.
Balanced or not, it's just not fun for me. I'm seriously considering just switching to Z or P even though I've played random since beta.
Could you please post your TvP and PvT winrates. It's nice to have some numerical data to analyze.
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On March 20 2012 23:16 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 22:22 Yosho wrote:On March 20 2012 21:58 Ghanburighan wrote:I would very much like to know Yosho's win rates by the minute. Ie. for under 5 min games, under 10 minute games, etc. I find it fascinating. It would be great to get it for TvT and PvT too. It's this kind of evidence that allows us to think about the MU, no matter what the haters say. As for Bronze, they really truly don't count. I saw a friend play in Silver yesterday, she's T and went for a 111, the protoss built cannons all over her natural and third, didn't have units when the banshee arrived at his base. I guess that patricular P thinks siege tanks and Banshees are imba  For some of the posts here who say mid masters, I'm high masters lol. I fight GM's most of the day. I state wins for TvT because My win ratio is incredibly high and that's better statistics, for TvP i put loss percentage as my win ratio is low. The first number is X amount of wins / losses. 2nd number and time include the first number as well. So this is out of a total 100% of games. so the 59% wins also include the first 10 minutes of the game. TvT - 32% of my games are won before the 10 minute mark. 59% are won before the 20 minute mark. This is because a lot of terrans try to all in often in tvt. 72% of my games are won before the 30 minute mark. TvP - 7% of my games are lost before the 10 minute mark. 26% of my games are lost before the 15 minute mark. 45% of my games are lost before the 20 minute mark. 86% of my games are lost before the 30 minute mark. Just some examples. As you can see my numbers start to increase at first with collasai timings. However I still maintain an even win ratio at this stage. I really decline once collasai + templar come out from a 55% survivability to a 14%. Thank you, that's fascinating to think about. Wish there were a mass-gaming diamond player for comparison (although the likelihood of having someone stuck in diamond that plays 500 games in a short time is pretty low). It's interesting that you have a 93% win rate against P in the first 10 minutes (how do you not die to all-ins, ever?!) and still 74% before the 15 minute mark. Those are great figures.
Hes stating that 93% of the time he doesn't die at 10minutes, not that he wins.
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On March 21 2012 00:05 Masq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 23:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 20 2012 22:22 Yosho wrote:On March 20 2012 21:58 Ghanburighan wrote:I would very much like to know Yosho's win rates by the minute. Ie. for under 5 min games, under 10 minute games, etc. I find it fascinating. It would be great to get it for TvT and PvT too. It's this kind of evidence that allows us to think about the MU, no matter what the haters say. As for Bronze, they really truly don't count. I saw a friend play in Silver yesterday, she's T and went for a 111, the protoss built cannons all over her natural and third, didn't have units when the banshee arrived at his base. I guess that patricular P thinks siege tanks and Banshees are imba For some of the posts here who say mid masters, I'm high masters lol. I fight GM's most of the day. I state wins for TvT because My win ratio is incredibly high and that's better statistics, for TvP i put loss percentage as my win ratio is low. The first number is X amount of wins / losses. 2nd number and time include the first number as well. So this is out of a total 100% of games. so the 59% wins also include the first 10 minutes of the game. TvT - 32% of my games are won before the 10 minute mark. 59% are won before the 20 minute mark. This is because a lot of terrans try to all in often in tvt. 72% of my games are won before the 30 minute mark. TvP - 7% of my games are lost before the 10 minute mark. 26% of my games are lost before the 15 minute mark. 45% of my games are lost before the 20 minute mark. 86% of my games are lost before the 30 minute mark. Just some examples. As you can see my numbers start to increase at first with collasai timings. However I still maintain an even win ratio at this stage. I really decline once collasai + templar come out from a 55% survivability to a 14%. Thank you, that's fascinating to think about. Wish there were a mass-gaming diamond player for comparison (although the likelihood of having someone stuck in diamond that plays 500 games in a short time is pretty low). It's interesting that you have a 93% win rate against P in the first 10 minutes (how do you not die to all-ins, ever?!) and still 74% before the 15 minute mark. Those are great figures. Hes stating that 93% of the time he doesn't die at 10minutes, not that he wins.
How exactly do you calculate a loss percentage in such a way that you do not get the win rate as the complement of the result? He just gave the loss percentage of all his TvP's that last under 10 minutes, if he loses 7% of the time, he must win 93% of the time.
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On March 21 2012 00:10 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:05 Masq wrote:On March 20 2012 23:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 20 2012 22:22 Yosho wrote:On March 20 2012 21:58 Ghanburighan wrote:I would very much like to know Yosho's win rates by the minute. Ie. for under 5 min games, under 10 minute games, etc. I find it fascinating. It would be great to get it for TvT and PvT too. It's this kind of evidence that allows us to think about the MU, no matter what the haters say. As for Bronze, they really truly don't count. I saw a friend play in Silver yesterday, she's T and went for a 111, the protoss built cannons all over her natural and third, didn't have units when the banshee arrived at his base. I guess that patricular P thinks siege tanks and Banshees are imba For some of the posts here who say mid masters, I'm high masters lol. I fight GM's most of the day. I state wins for TvT because My win ratio is incredibly high and that's better statistics, for TvP i put loss percentage as my win ratio is low. The first number is X amount of wins / losses. 2nd number and time include the first number as well. So this is out of a total 100% of games. so the 59% wins also include the first 10 minutes of the game. TvT - 32% of my games are won before the 10 minute mark. 59% are won before the 20 minute mark. This is because a lot of terrans try to all in often in tvt. 72% of my games are won before the 30 minute mark. TvP - 7% of my games are lost before the 10 minute mark. 26% of my games are lost before the 15 minute mark. 45% of my games are lost before the 20 minute mark. 86% of my games are lost before the 30 minute mark. Just some examples. As you can see my numbers start to increase at first with collasai timings. However I still maintain an even win ratio at this stage. I really decline once collasai + templar come out from a 55% survivability to a 14%. Thank you, that's fascinating to think about. Wish there were a mass-gaming diamond player for comparison (although the likelihood of having someone stuck in diamond that plays 500 games in a short time is pretty low). It's interesting that you have a 93% win rate against P in the first 10 minutes (how do you not die to all-ins, ever?!) and still 74% before the 15 minute mark. Those are great figures. Hes stating that 93% of the time he doesn't die at 10minutes, not that he wins. How exactly do you calculate a loss percentage in such a way that you do not get the win rate as the complement of the result? He just gave the loss percentage of all his TvP's that last under 10 minutes, if he loses 7% of the time, he must win 93% of the time.
Edit: Lol, I don't know anymore what Yosho was trying to say.
Is it 7% of his losses that come before 10 minutes, or 7% of the time in TvP he loses before 10?
Anyway that doesn't say anything about his winrate over the games that last less than 10 minutes.
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On March 21 2012 00:11 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 21 2012 00:05 Masq wrote:On March 20 2012 23:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 20 2012 22:22 Yosho wrote:On March 20 2012 21:58 Ghanburighan wrote:I would very much like to know Yosho's win rates by the minute. Ie. for under 5 min games, under 10 minute games, etc. I find it fascinating. It would be great to get it for TvT and PvT too. It's this kind of evidence that allows us to think about the MU, no matter what the haters say. As for Bronze, they really truly don't count. I saw a friend play in Silver yesterday, she's T and went for a 111, the protoss built cannons all over her natural and third, didn't have units when the banshee arrived at his base. I guess that patricular P thinks siege tanks and Banshees are imba For some of the posts here who say mid masters, I'm high masters lol. I fight GM's most of the day. I state wins for TvT because My win ratio is incredibly high and that's better statistics, for TvP i put loss percentage as my win ratio is low. The first number is X amount of wins / losses. 2nd number and time include the first number as well. So this is out of a total 100% of games. so the 59% wins also include the first 10 minutes of the game. TvT - 32% of my games are won before the 10 minute mark. 59% are won before the 20 minute mark. This is because a lot of terrans try to all in often in tvt. 72% of my games are won before the 30 minute mark. TvP - 7% of my games are lost before the 10 minute mark. 26% of my games are lost before the 15 minute mark. 45% of my games are lost before the 20 minute mark. 86% of my games are lost before the 30 minute mark. Just some examples. As you can see my numbers start to increase at first with collasai timings. However I still maintain an even win ratio at this stage. I really decline once collasai + templar come out from a 55% survivability to a 14%. Thank you, that's fascinating to think about. Wish there were a mass-gaming diamond player for comparison (although the likelihood of having someone stuck in diamond that plays 500 games in a short time is pretty low). It's interesting that you have a 93% win rate against P in the first 10 minutes (how do you not die to all-ins, ever?!) and still 74% before the 15 minute mark. Those are great figures. Hes stating that 93% of the time he doesn't die at 10minutes, not that he wins. How exactly do you calculate a loss percentage in such a way that you do not get the win rate as the complement of the result? He just gave the loss percentage of all his TvP's that last under 10 minutes, if he loses 7% of the time, he must win 93% of the time. Edit: Lol, I don't know anymore what Yosho was trying to say. Is it 7% of his losses that come before 10 minutes, or 7% of the time in TvP he loses before 10?
Yosho should answer, but I think he takes, as i asked, all his under 10 minute games and gives the loss rate for TvP, which should mean the number is also the win rate for PvT. Thus, 100-number is his TvP win rate and 100-number is his PvT win rate. I don't really see how this is confusing.
This means that we have two numbers to compare: his win rate in short games and his overall win rate. as the overall number is low and short game number is high, we can conclude that he fails to win many games early despite having excellent win rates during short games.
Edit:typo.
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I don't die 93% of the time.
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On March 21 2012 00:18 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:11 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 00:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 21 2012 00:05 Masq wrote:On March 20 2012 23:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 20 2012 22:22 Yosho wrote:On March 20 2012 21:58 Ghanburighan wrote:I would very much like to know Yosho's win rates by the minute. Ie. for under 5 min games, under 10 minute games, etc. I find it fascinating. It would be great to get it for TvT and PvT too. It's this kind of evidence that allows us to think about the MU, no matter what the haters say. As for Bronze, they really truly don't count. I saw a friend play in Silver yesterday, she's T and went for a 111, the protoss built cannons all over her natural and third, didn't have units when the banshee arrived at his base. I guess that patricular P thinks siege tanks and Banshees are imba For some of the posts here who say mid masters, I'm high masters lol. I fight GM's most of the day. I state wins for TvT because My win ratio is incredibly high and that's better statistics, for TvP i put loss percentage as my win ratio is low. The first number is X amount of wins / losses. 2nd number and time include the first number as well. So this is out of a total 100% of games. so the 59% wins also include the first 10 minutes of the game. TvT - 32% of my games are won before the 10 minute mark. 59% are won before the 20 minute mark. This is because a lot of terrans try to all in often in tvt. 72% of my games are won before the 30 minute mark. TvP - 7% of my games are lost before the 10 minute mark. 26% of my games are lost before the 15 minute mark. 45% of my games are lost before the 20 minute mark. 86% of my games are lost before the 30 minute mark. Just some examples. As you can see my numbers start to increase at first with collasai timings. However I still maintain an even win ratio at this stage. I really decline once collasai + templar come out from a 55% survivability to a 14%. Thank you, that's fascinating to think about. Wish there were a mass-gaming diamond player for comparison (although the likelihood of having someone stuck in diamond that plays 500 games in a short time is pretty low). It's interesting that you have a 93% win rate against P in the first 10 minutes (how do you not die to all-ins, ever?!) and still 74% before the 15 minute mark. Those are great figures. Hes stating that 93% of the time he doesn't die at 10minutes, not that he wins. How exactly do you calculate a loss percentage in such a way that you do not get the win rate as the complement of the result? He just gave the loss percentage of all his TvP's that last under 10 minutes, if he loses 7% of the time, he must win 93% of the time. Edit: Lol, I don't know anymore what Yosho was trying to say. Is it 7% of his losses that come before 10 minutes, or 7% of the time in TvP he loses before 10? Yosho should answer, but I think he takes, as i asked, all his under 10 minute games and gives the loss rate for TvP, which should mean the number is also the win rate for PvT. Thus, 100-number is his TvP win rate and 100-number is his PvT win rate. I don't really see how this is confusing. This means that we have two numbers to compare: his win rate in short games and his overall win rate. as the overall number is low and short game number is high, we can conclude that he fails to win many games early despite having excellent win rates during short games. Edit:typo.
He should just have posted the stats as SC2gears present them imo (classification of "wins - losses" during 0-5, 5-10, 10-15, 15-20mins, etc...), it's clearer that way.
It seems to me that when he says "86% of my games are lost before the 30 minute mark", it also includes the early game losses. It only makes sense that this number keeps growing then, not really that surprising. What then? "100% of my games are lost before 1 hour"?
I'm starting to really doubt those stats. Just state the winrates per individual time slot, not an integral value over the time, which can only grow anyway.
Edit:
I don't die 93% of the time.
Thanks for the precision, that's what I thought.
Now for the 86%. So the event "I survive till 30 minutes (without accounting for the wins I get within that timeframe)" has probabilty 14%? Well I guess I will be confused anyway, but can you give you your winrates over your games that last between 25 and 30-35 minutes or something? I think SC2gears give that directly, and that's probably what people want to know.
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On March 20 2012 23:12 ticklishmusic wrote:I don't play super duper much anymore, but I like to think of myself as a "soft randomer"-- I play primarily Protoss (around mid-low masters level), but I go random at least once every 5 games. I like the T side of TvP more than the P side. I don't know. It's just so much easier to win, although in theory I should be better at Protoss than Terran based on the amount I played each race. Protoss, I typically have to grind all the way to tier 3 or the late game and do crazy warp prism harass along with switching between archons and colossi to win-- fun, but very hard on my poor old heart. Terran, I just go bio pressure into triple orbitals into ghosts with some throwaway drops, and yay I win. If I lose, I don't feel too bad either because I'm sure the Protoss worked a lot harder to defend than I did to attack. Don't really understand why people complain about emp and snipe nerf. I mean, HT cost more gas and can't attack and can storm (80 damage) for 75 energy. Ghosts do 100 shield damage for the same amount. Those two are pretty equivalent spells in the MU I feel like, except the -100 energy on ghosts is a bit annoying (lol, emp my mothership D . Without snipe, ghosts are still pretty good against zealots as long as there's something else tanking zealot damage for at least a little while.
Ugh iono about you but a larger majority of the people will say that defending is alot easier then attacking. Have you ever heard of defender advantage? Even in real life (war tactics), defending is much easier than going on the offenses. I know defender advantage is much smaller than it was in starcraft 1 but it still there and defending should be a lot easier and many will agree with me on this. You are probably just not that good at defending drop or your mutli task is not as good.
I will have to agree that terran drops and attack are easy to execute but it hard to execute correctly when you are playing against a good protoss where the usual stuff does not work. If you truly are better at terran then you should probably consider switching to terran because learning tvp is the large hurdle that block many low-mid master terran from ever reaching high master.
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On March 21 2012 00:31 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:18 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 21 2012 00:11 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 00:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 21 2012 00:05 Masq wrote:On March 20 2012 23:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 20 2012 22:22 Yosho wrote:On March 20 2012 21:58 Ghanburighan wrote:I would very much like to know Yosho's win rates by the minute. Ie. for under 5 min games, under 10 minute games, etc. I find it fascinating. It would be great to get it for TvT and PvT too. It's this kind of evidence that allows us to think about the MU, no matter what the haters say. As for Bronze, they really truly don't count. I saw a friend play in Silver yesterday, she's T and went for a 111, the protoss built cannons all over her natural and third, didn't have units when the banshee arrived at his base. I guess that patricular P thinks siege tanks and Banshees are imba For some of the posts here who say mid masters, I'm high masters lol. I fight GM's most of the day. I state wins for TvT because My win ratio is incredibly high and that's better statistics, for TvP i put loss percentage as my win ratio is low. The first number is X amount of wins / losses. 2nd number and time include the first number as well. So this is out of a total 100% of games. so the 59% wins also include the first 10 minutes of the game. TvT - 32% of my games are won before the 10 minute mark. 59% are won before the 20 minute mark. This is because a lot of terrans try to all in often in tvt. 72% of my games are won before the 30 minute mark. TvP - 7% of my games are lost before the 10 minute mark. 26% of my games are lost before the 15 minute mark. 45% of my games are lost before the 20 minute mark. 86% of my games are lost before the 30 minute mark. Just some examples. As you can see my numbers start to increase at first with collasai timings. However I still maintain an even win ratio at this stage. I really decline once collasai + templar come out from a 55% survivability to a 14%. Thank you, that's fascinating to think about. Wish there were a mass-gaming diamond player for comparison (although the likelihood of having someone stuck in diamond that plays 500 games in a short time is pretty low). It's interesting that you have a 93% win rate against P in the first 10 minutes (how do you not die to all-ins, ever?!) and still 74% before the 15 minute mark. Those are great figures. Hes stating that 93% of the time he doesn't die at 10minutes, not that he wins. How exactly do you calculate a loss percentage in such a way that you do not get the win rate as the complement of the result? He just gave the loss percentage of all his TvP's that last under 10 minutes, if he loses 7% of the time, he must win 93% of the time. Edit: Lol, I don't know anymore what Yosho was trying to say. Is it 7% of his losses that come before 10 minutes, or 7% of the time in TvP he loses before 10? Yosho should answer, but I think he takes, as i asked, all his under 10 minute games and gives the loss rate for TvP, which should mean the number is also the win rate for PvT. Thus, 100-number is his TvP win rate and 100-number is his PvT win rate. I don't really see how this is confusing. This means that we have two numbers to compare: his win rate in short games and his overall win rate. as the overall number is low and short game number is high, we can conclude that he fails to win many games early despite having excellent win rates during short games. Edit:typo. He should just have posted the stats as SC2gears present them imo (classification of "wins - losses" during 0-5, 5-10, 10-15, 15-20mins, etc...), it's clearer that way. It seems to me that when he says "86% of my games are lost before the 30 minute mark", it also includes the early game losses. It only makes sense that this number keeps growing then, not really that surprising. What then? "100% of my games are lost before 1 hour"? I'm starting to really doubt those stats. Just state the winrates per individual time slot, not an integral value over the time, which can only grow anyway. Edit: Thanks for the precision, that's what I thought. Now for the 86%. So the event "I survive till 30 minutes (without accounting for the wins I get within that timeframe)" has probabilty 14%? Well I guess I will be confused anyway, but can you give you your winrates over your games that last between 25 and 30-35 minutes or something? I think SC2gears give that directly, and that's probably what people want to know.
Better this way to understand I think, sorry english 2nd language. 20-30 minute mark I win 37% of games.
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On March 16 2012 12:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2012 12:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 12:01 Plansix wrote:On March 16 2012 11:58 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 11:45 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 11:39 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On March 16 2012 11:21 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 16 2012 11:11 ZenithM wrote:On March 16 2012 10:33 FabledIntegral wrote:On March 16 2012 10:30 Gamegene wrote:
[quote]
Who doesn't use hotkeys for spells =_= What. Since when do you have a separate hotkey for any of those. None of the pros do from what I'm aware. Why would you need to have a separate hotkey for just your stalkers, or have zealots on manual? No pro uses zealots on manual afaik. Could be wrong, which ones do? It's very common to have 3 control groups for good Protosses. You want your blink stalkers in one group, they're very mobile and can actually leave the "ball" temporarily to harass the Terran army or bases (like pick off a stray ghost or medivac and blink back). Then your zealot/sentries in one group too. The third is used for Colossus before templars, for quick access to them. Then when you have templars, you can put your colossi with the zealots and micro them with the mouse, and give the templars their own control group. That's 3 reasonable control groups that many Protoss use. Add to that one for a warpprism, which is not that rare in all P matchups nowadays. HuK for example uses 1: zealot/sentries, 2: stalkers, 3: colossi, 4: templars. And we definitely already saw charge being turned off to not waste it or to hide the tech (although chargelots have a higher movement speed so it's kinda silly). Mostly it's to not waste the charge. Charge cannot be used on manual per say, you need to target a unit with it. Obviously you don't want 20 chargelots to run on 1 marine. Good protosses. You say it. But any random master protoss is just fine with 1 control group, whereas every terran even in platinum league effectively NEEDS 3 control groups. That is a huge difference. The fact that you need something and it's not just optional. hence why protoss is much easier, they can decide to use 3 control groups but unless they play at the very top level they absolutely dont need to. What part of that is it that people dont get? Just felt like pointing out that that's ridiculous. Your nexuses are always hotkeyed. Your army (non-spellcasters) are always hotkeyed. Your spellcasters are hotkeyed separately. And your robo(s). And guess what? Fucking W counts as a hotkey. Yeah, I said it. If you get to use a number for your barracks, then W sure in hell counts as a control group for my warpgates- especially since I need to leave my current screen (which is a battle half the time) and warp-in. So W counts as one. And those are just basic hotkeys. What what. Army hotkeys. You need exactly 1. You dont have to put spellcasters on a seperate hotkey, there is no need to. Absolutely no need at all. Control Groups, control groups, army, army, comprendo? I assume you have ghosts on a different hotkey than the rest of your bio because you want to be able to stim and still use ghost abilities, right? How do you think Protoss players use both sentries and high templar effectively? And blink... Sure, you could try to get away with not using multiple control groups by double-clicking on the desired units really fast (whether your Terran or Protoss), but when everything's clumped together or firing, you're gonna want to have easy access to units that have important abilities. I'm not saying that either race *needs* to have everything on different hotkeys, but there's no reason why Terran should have any *more* hotkeys for their army, considering Protoss has more spellcasters and more units that move at varying speeds. There is nothing worse than trying to blink your stalkers and throwing down an FF instead. Also, why are you trying to argue with him? Did you see his last post. Clearly, no argument you can make will change his mind. He is convinced loses every game to protoss because the race is just way to easy, while terran is for people with 7 fingers and 250+ apm. Touche. By the way, did you see the showmatches between WhiteRa and DeMuslim played a few hours ago? DeMuslim stomped WhiteRa in pretty much every single one, and WhiteRa lost to all sorts of variations... early game pressure, late game pressure, even mech. It's a pity too, considering WhiteRa was playing really well (and had been practicing for a little while beforehand). DeMuslim's a very solid player. They both are. I forget what races they play though. Probably not relevant to this thread. I watched them a bit and it was pretty exciting. DeMuslim was willing to break from the standard terran mold and did pretty well. I really enjoyed the use of hellion, which are under explored. They can do damage so quickly and can be super hard to kill if the terran is smart with them and doesn't try to push it.
Anyone know where I can VODs of these games?
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On March 21 2012 00:52 Yosho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:31 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 00:18 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 21 2012 00:11 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 00:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 21 2012 00:05 Masq wrote:On March 20 2012 23:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 20 2012 22:22 Yosho wrote:On March 20 2012 21:58 Ghanburighan wrote:I would very much like to know Yosho's win rates by the minute. Ie. for under 5 min games, under 10 minute games, etc. I find it fascinating. It would be great to get it for TvT and PvT too. It's this kind of evidence that allows us to think about the MU, no matter what the haters say. As for Bronze, they really truly don't count. I saw a friend play in Silver yesterday, she's T and went for a 111, the protoss built cannons all over her natural and third, didn't have units when the banshee arrived at his base. I guess that patricular P thinks siege tanks and Banshees are imba For some of the posts here who say mid masters, I'm high masters lol. I fight GM's most of the day. I state wins for TvT because My win ratio is incredibly high and that's better statistics, for TvP i put loss percentage as my win ratio is low. The first number is X amount of wins / losses. 2nd number and time include the first number as well. So this is out of a total 100% of games. so the 59% wins also include the first 10 minutes of the game. TvT - 32% of my games are won before the 10 minute mark. 59% are won before the 20 minute mark. This is because a lot of terrans try to all in often in tvt. 72% of my games are won before the 30 minute mark. TvP - 7% of my games are lost before the 10 minute mark. 26% of my games are lost before the 15 minute mark. 45% of my games are lost before the 20 minute mark. 86% of my games are lost before the 30 minute mark. Just some examples. As you can see my numbers start to increase at first with collasai timings. However I still maintain an even win ratio at this stage. I really decline once collasai + templar come out from a 55% survivability to a 14%. Thank you, that's fascinating to think about. Wish there were a mass-gaming diamond player for comparison (although the likelihood of having someone stuck in diamond that plays 500 games in a short time is pretty low). It's interesting that you have a 93% win rate against P in the first 10 minutes (how do you not die to all-ins, ever?!) and still 74% before the 15 minute mark. Those are great figures. Hes stating that 93% of the time he doesn't die at 10minutes, not that he wins. How exactly do you calculate a loss percentage in such a way that you do not get the win rate as the complement of the result? He just gave the loss percentage of all his TvP's that last under 10 minutes, if he loses 7% of the time, he must win 93% of the time. Edit: Lol, I don't know anymore what Yosho was trying to say. Is it 7% of his losses that come before 10 minutes, or 7% of the time in TvP he loses before 10? Yosho should answer, but I think he takes, as i asked, all his under 10 minute games and gives the loss rate for TvP, which should mean the number is also the win rate for PvT. Thus, 100-number is his TvP win rate and 100-number is his PvT win rate. I don't really see how this is confusing. This means that we have two numbers to compare: his win rate in short games and his overall win rate. as the overall number is low and short game number is high, we can conclude that he fails to win many games early despite having excellent win rates during short games. Edit:typo. He should just have posted the stats as SC2gears present them imo (classification of "wins - losses" during 0-5, 5-10, 10-15, 15-20mins, etc...), it's clearer that way. It seems to me that when he says "86% of my games are lost before the 30 minute mark", it also includes the early game losses. It only makes sense that this number keeps growing then, not really that surprising. What then? "100% of my games are lost before 1 hour"? I'm starting to really doubt those stats. Just state the winrates per individual time slot, not an integral value over the time, which can only grow anyway. Edit: I don't die 93% of the time. Thanks for the precision, that's what I thought. Now for the 86%. So the event "I survive till 30 minutes (without accounting for the wins I get within that timeframe)" has probabilty 14%? Well I guess I will be confused anyway, but can you give you your winrates over your games that last between 25 and 30-35 minutes or something? I think SC2gears give that directly, and that's probably what people want to know. Better this way to understand I think, sorry english 2nd language. 20-30 minute mark I win 37% of games.
Thank you . That's not too much indeed 
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On March 20 2012 22:40 roym899 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 22:10 KenDM wrote:On March 20 2012 06:03 Pulimuli wrote:On March 20 2012 05:58 freetgy wrote:On March 20 2012 05:16 SupLilSon wrote:
I'd sympathise with you a little bit if those upgrades and tech weren't mandatory for Terran users in order for bio to stand a chance against gateway units. Without, stim/cc/concussive/medivacs, you can't leave your ramp as Terran. thats funny, because mass marines work without any upgrades ... if the game is shorter than like 7 minutes, yes or if you're in silver league I'm a Silver leaguer, even there mass marines don't work. I'm posting here because I hope this thread will become the voice of Terrans all over the world and Blizzard will try and balance the game out some more on my level of play. I just want to have fun, can't have fun with always losing to Protoss. It's really hard for me to keep up a good macro while dropping, while getting bunkers up, while balancing how much SCV's I need for repairing my bunkers, while balancing vikings on Colossi and kiting the auto-charging zealots, while dealing with the free to lurk everywhere Observer, while stressing out so much and the Protoss player just gets upgrades and pwns me slowly but surely. Dude do you really complain about Mass Marines not working? oO Honestly: Until atleast Platinum you don't lose because of Micro or wrong army composition. It's just the fact you don't know how to Macro properly. I played on an account of a friend of mine who is in Silver League and there where many players not attacking and expanding aroung the 15 minute mark. Please learn to macro first and then you can care about micro and imbalancement. btw.: Terran is imho not up at all. Terran is still the most played race in most pro tournements and terran is still winning so many tournements. I was Terran myself and right now looking back at these days I would even say Terran is clearly easier and stronger (played with the same skillset at Gold Niveau) then atleast Zerg. Toss is on a quite similiar level i think although I haven't played many matches as Toss. On Pro Niveau the game is balanced quite fine right now.
My macro is okay for a Silver player (there's a reason i'm not yet higher ranked). But even with my income being so much higher than my opponents, I can't defeat Protoss. Nowadays everybody is watching Day9 and other casters, everyone knows some splash dealing composition. You can't mass marine into a Siege expand. You can't go marines against banelings. You can't go marines against stalkers like that. Come one, micro is also part of the game, it saves tons of stuff like targetting banelings with tanks etc etc. I'm not saying that TvP is unbalanced or unwinnable, I'm just voicing how I feel when I play it, and it makes me feel drained as a casual player. It's really annoying. If enough people react the same way, that will be the point where I will be confirmed of any imbalance.
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On March 21 2012 01:05 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 22:40 roym899 wrote:On March 20 2012 22:10 KenDM wrote:On March 20 2012 06:03 Pulimuli wrote:On March 20 2012 05:58 freetgy wrote:On March 20 2012 05:16 SupLilSon wrote:
I'd sympathise with you a little bit if those upgrades and tech weren't mandatory for Terran users in order for bio to stand a chance against gateway units. Without, stim/cc/concussive/medivacs, you can't leave your ramp as Terran. thats funny, because mass marines work without any upgrades ... if the game is shorter than like 7 minutes, yes or if you're in silver league I'm a Silver leaguer, even there mass marines don't work. I'm posting here because I hope this thread will become the voice of Terrans all over the world and Blizzard will try and balance the game out some more on my level of play. I just want to have fun, can't have fun with always losing to Protoss. It's really hard for me to keep up a good macro while dropping, while getting bunkers up, while balancing how much SCV's I need for repairing my bunkers, while balancing vikings on Colossi and kiting the auto-charging zealots, while dealing with the free to lurk everywhere Observer, while stressing out so much and the Protoss player just gets upgrades and pwns me slowly but surely. Dude do you really complain about Mass Marines not working? oO Honestly: Until atleast Platinum you don't lose because of Micro or wrong army composition. It's just the fact you don't know how to Macro properly. I played on an account of a friend of mine who is in Silver League and there where many players not attacking and expanding aroung the 15 minute mark. Please learn to macro first and then you can care about micro and imbalancement. btw.: Terran is imho not up at all. Terran is still the most played race in most pro tournements and terran is still winning so many tournements. I was Terran myself and right now looking back at these days I would even say Terran is clearly easier and stronger (played with the same skillset at Gold Niveau) then atleast Zerg. Toss is on a quite similiar level i think although I haven't played many matches as Toss. On Pro Niveau the game is balanced quite fine right now. My macro is okay for a Silver player (there's a reason i'm not yet higher ranked). But even with my income being so much higher than my opponents, I can't defeat Protoss. Nowadays everybody is watching Day9 and other casters, everyone knows some splash dealing composition. You can't mass marine into a Siege expand. You can't go marines against banelings. You can't go marines against stalkers like that. Come one, micro is also part of the game, it saves tons of stuff like targetting banelings with tanks etc etc. I'm not saying that TvP is unbalanced or unwinnable, I'm just voicing how I feel when I play it, and it makes me feel drained as a casual player. It's really annoying. If enough people react the same way, that will be the point where I will be confirmed of any imbalance.
It's weird for a casual gamer to feel drained by a match to begin with. You don't really play a competitive version of the game, so you should not really sweat it and play as it comes. There are many ways at your level to beat Protoss without much effort, and one of them is to just build more shit. You don't have good macro, else you would be at least platinum, that's like the definition of platinum ("learned to spend his money a bit, dumping it in units that make somewhat sense" :D)
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On March 21 2012 01:05 KenDM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 22:40 roym899 wrote:On March 20 2012 22:10 KenDM wrote:On March 20 2012 06:03 Pulimuli wrote:On March 20 2012 05:58 freetgy wrote:On March 20 2012 05:16 SupLilSon wrote:
I'd sympathise with you a little bit if those upgrades and tech weren't mandatory for Terran users in order for bio to stand a chance against gateway units. Without, stim/cc/concussive/medivacs, you can't leave your ramp as Terran. thats funny, because mass marines work without any upgrades ... if the game is shorter than like 7 minutes, yes or if you're in silver league I'm a Silver leaguer, even there mass marines don't work. I'm posting here because I hope this thread will become the voice of Terrans all over the world and Blizzard will try and balance the game out some more on my level of play. I just want to have fun, can't have fun with always losing to Protoss. It's really hard for me to keep up a good macro while dropping, while getting bunkers up, while balancing how much SCV's I need for repairing my bunkers, while balancing vikings on Colossi and kiting the auto-charging zealots, while dealing with the free to lurk everywhere Observer, while stressing out so much and the Protoss player just gets upgrades and pwns me slowly but surely. Dude do you really complain about Mass Marines not working? oO Honestly: Until atleast Platinum you don't lose because of Micro or wrong army composition. It's just the fact you don't know how to Macro properly. I played on an account of a friend of mine who is in Silver League and there where many players not attacking and expanding aroung the 15 minute mark. Please learn to macro first and then you can care about micro and imbalancement. btw.: Terran is imho not up at all. Terran is still the most played race in most pro tournements and terran is still winning so many tournements. I was Terran myself and right now looking back at these days I would even say Terran is clearly easier and stronger (played with the same skillset at Gold Niveau) then atleast Zerg. Toss is on a quite similiar level i think although I haven't played many matches as Toss. On Pro Niveau the game is balanced quite fine right now. My macro is okay for a Silver player (there's a reason i'm not yet higher ranked). But even with my income being so much higher than my opponents, I can't defeat Protoss. Nowadays everybody is watching Day9 and other casters, everyone knows some splash dealing composition. You can't mass marine into a Siege expand. You can't go marines against banelings. You can't go marines against stalkers like that. Come one, micro is also part of the game, it saves tons of stuff like targetting banelings with tanks etc etc. I'm not saying that TvP is unbalanced or unwinnable, I'm just voicing how I feel when I play it, and it makes me feel drained as a casual player. It's really annoying. If enough people react the same way, that will be the point where I will be confirmed of any imbalance.
Macro being ok for Silver player means its still horrible. Your income means actually propapbly nothing couse im sure you are banking minerals instead of spending em. Mass marines dont work, erm, i guess thats intended? Get better, play 20 matches vs AI, when you will be able to hit lets say 100 supply mark without single supply lock add queqing drops into your play, do another 20 games.
Or you can keep whinning in this thread and achieve nothing.
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Talk about harsh. I respectfully want to stop discussing this after the post I make, it defeats the purpose of this thread. I won't reply on your replies anymore as well, seeing as you're just standard advising me without knowing me.
Just saying macro better isn't good advice, obviously it's my goal to macro better, but I can't just go mass mass marines. I've tried, believe me, out of desperation. The moment that push comes I can hold it, but when he recuperates and Colossi come out. Instant loss because my cool SCV's and expo's get obliterated before new units can come in and get annihilated themselves. There is no black and white here, it's not a matter of just macroing better. But as a low ranked player all I can do is hear you tell me differently, even though I've shown replays to some Master players in the Terran Help me Thread, occasionally yeah supply blocks will occur, my macro will slip, but the biggest problem for me is decision making, macro comes second. Even though it doesn't make sense, even though you're just going to bash me again, I'll keep coming back to this community hoping to meet the better TLers.
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On March 21 2012 00:52 Yosho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 00:31 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 00:18 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 21 2012 00:11 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 00:10 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 21 2012 00:05 Masq wrote:On March 20 2012 23:16 Ghanburighan wrote:On March 20 2012 22:22 Yosho wrote:On March 20 2012 21:58 Ghanburighan wrote:I would very much like to know Yosho's win rates by the minute. Ie. for under 5 min games, under 10 minute games, etc. I find it fascinating. It would be great to get it for TvT and PvT too. It's this kind of evidence that allows us to think about the MU, no matter what the haters say. As for Bronze, they really truly don't count. I saw a friend play in Silver yesterday, she's T and went for a 111, the protoss built cannons all over her natural and third, didn't have units when the banshee arrived at his base. I guess that patricular P thinks siege tanks and Banshees are imba For some of the posts here who say mid masters, I'm high masters lol. I fight GM's most of the day. I state wins for TvT because My win ratio is incredibly high and that's better statistics, for TvP i put loss percentage as my win ratio is low. The first number is X amount of wins / losses. 2nd number and time include the first number as well. So this is out of a total 100% of games. so the 59% wins also include the first 10 minutes of the game. TvT - 32% of my games are won before the 10 minute mark. 59% are won before the 20 minute mark. This is because a lot of terrans try to all in often in tvt. 72% of my games are won before the 30 minute mark. TvP - 7% of my games are lost before the 10 minute mark. 26% of my games are lost before the 15 minute mark. 45% of my games are lost before the 20 minute mark. 86% of my games are lost before the 30 minute mark. Just some examples. As you can see my numbers start to increase at first with collasai timings. However I still maintain an even win ratio at this stage. I really decline once collasai + templar come out from a 55% survivability to a 14%. Thank you, that's fascinating to think about. Wish there were a mass-gaming diamond player for comparison (although the likelihood of having someone stuck in diamond that plays 500 games in a short time is pretty low). It's interesting that you have a 93% win rate against P in the first 10 minutes (how do you not die to all-ins, ever?!) and still 74% before the 15 minute mark. Those are great figures. Hes stating that 93% of the time he doesn't die at 10minutes, not that he wins. How exactly do you calculate a loss percentage in such a way that you do not get the win rate as the complement of the result? He just gave the loss percentage of all his TvP's that last under 10 minutes, if he loses 7% of the time, he must win 93% of the time. Edit: Lol, I don't know anymore what Yosho was trying to say. Is it 7% of his losses that come before 10 minutes, or 7% of the time in TvP he loses before 10? Yosho should answer, but I think he takes, as i asked, all his under 10 minute games and gives the loss rate for TvP, which should mean the number is also the win rate for PvT. Thus, 100-number is his TvP win rate and 100-number is his PvT win rate. I don't really see how this is confusing. This means that we have two numbers to compare: his win rate in short games and his overall win rate. as the overall number is low and short game number is high, we can conclude that he fails to win many games early despite having excellent win rates during short games. Edit:typo. He should just have posted the stats as SC2gears present them imo (classification of "wins - losses" during 0-5, 5-10, 10-15, 15-20mins, etc...), it's clearer that way. It seems to me that when he says "86% of my games are lost before the 30 minute mark", it also includes the early game losses. It only makes sense that this number keeps growing then, not really that surprising. What then? "100% of my games are lost before 1 hour"? I'm starting to really doubt those stats. Just state the winrates per individual time slot, not an integral value over the time, which can only grow anyway. Edit: I don't die 93% of the time. Thanks for the precision, that's what I thought. Now for the 86%. So the event "I survive till 30 minutes (without accounting for the wins I get within that timeframe)" has probabilty 14%? Well I guess I will be confused anyway, but can you give you your winrates over your games that last between 25 and 30-35 minutes or something? I think SC2gears give that directly, and that's probably what people want to know. Better this way to understand I think, sorry english 2nd language. 20-30 minute mark I win 37% of games.
Interesting. Would you say that you are on equal footing with the protoss during that entire time? Personally, as a protoss player, I rarely get an advantage in the mid game that is large enough for me to push crush a reasonable terran before the 20 minute mark. Mostly, any advantage I get only allows me to take a quick third/fourth and climb the tech tree a little faster than normal, which using the advantage to deny/delay the terran's third base. Just wondering, since you do play all three races?
The only reason I ask is that a lot of time time when my opponents gripe about end game protoss, I really beat them in the mid game. It just took me a while to put the nail in the coffin.
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Well apart from the fact that I'm personally a bit sick of SC2 cos of some major design problems that exist in my opinion, I also found the TvP matchup to be by far the most frustrating thing ever :D
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i recently started playing again after a 2 months break, before i was in master league and my best MU was TvP even when it got late. Now adays i get utterly destroyed in either TvZ or TvP if the game goes on for longer then 13-15 min. I'm in diamond now btw.
vZ i've tried meching but decent players seems to just make sure the hellion harass does as little dmg as possible take some bases and build broods pretty quick or just take 3 bases mass roach and A move seems to work also, might be that i realise that too late and cant get enough tanks. The games i win i either go 2 rax agg or my reactor hellion exp catches someone completly of guad and drones get roasted and they die pretty much on the spot.
vP Most of the time i win of 2 rax agg because everyone seems to play way too greedy. Other ways is too just trade and trade armys that seems to work decently also because it makes going coloss pretty bad and u can just build some ghosts.
If they ever get both coloss and templars my multitasking is too lacking to handle the confrontations.
Even zealot archon storm is really hard to play against. Must be a complete nightmare for worse players then me because P can a move that comp and u have to micro your heart out.
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On March 20 2012 22:19 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 22:10 KenDM wrote:On March 20 2012 06:03 Pulimuli wrote:On March 20 2012 05:58 freetgy wrote:On March 20 2012 05:16 SupLilSon wrote:
I'd sympathise with you a little bit if those upgrades and tech weren't mandatory for Terran users in order for bio to stand a chance against gateway units. Without, stim/cc/concussive/medivacs, you can't leave your ramp as Terran. thats funny, because mass marines work without any upgrades ... if the game is shorter than like 7 minutes, yes or if you're in silver league I'm a Silver leaguer, even there mass marines don't work. I'm posting here because I hope this thread will become the voice of Terrans all over the world and Blizzard will try and balance the game out some more on my level of play. I just want to have fun, can't have fun with always losing to Protoss. It's really hard for me to keep up a good macro while dropping, while getting bunkers up, while balancing how much SCV's I need for repairing my bunkers, while balancing vikings on Colossi and kiting the auto-charging zealots, while dealing with the free to lurk everywhere Observer, while stressing out so much and the Protoss player just gets upgrades and pwns me slowly but surely. See this post. How can anyone tell what is just whine and "grass is greener"-attitude and what's really balance? People say stuff like this in every competitive game, from every side and it's not a indicator of balance. Just the fact that people have a mentality where they just can't imagine a scenario where they are losing due to their own play. Just because there's alot of terrans claiming the same thing in this thread doesn't prove anything, as the thread is obviously catered to terrans who want to whine about protoss. This thread is not constructive and probably never will be with the overall attitude being "I played my heart out while he just sat in base with no APM winning easily due to balance".
Well then fricken ignore it. You're like a plague on this already god forsaken thread. You just come in here to derail what little debate is still going on, and to seemingly just shit on everyone who has an opinion.
Stop looking at the shitty posts and focus on the good quality ones. Check out Yosho's post. He presents the first comprehensive data coming from a random player, a high master/GM one at that. His numbers clearly show that there is a problem with TvP or he is just significantly worse in TvP than every other matchup in the game. Until we have a high caliber Random player say otherwise, I'm going to trust he knows more than everyone else in this thread (bar Beasty).
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EPT
