EPTWhere did all of the terrans go? - Page 99
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Mongolbonjwa
Finland376 Posts
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On March 20 2012 15:55 drop271 wrote: Fair points and well made. However there are two problems for your evidence which stop it from being something conclusive as why terrans shrink at all levels - Firstly, the common factor in all those games is you. You may just be bad at TvP. It doesn't matter if you are random or whatever, you might just be worse (relatively) at that match up. You may be trying 'proper' builds that the metagame doesn't favour. Either way, its still your personal experience (which you of course admit). I'm sure there are many people that perhaps just 1/1/1 and find TvP easy. Secondly, they are all experiences at your particular skill level. Even if it is on different servers - your MMR (assuming you play just as well regardless of your account) will find equal skilled opponents on each account. An explanation could be that the micro required at that point of skill is harder for Terran because there 'imbalance' arises from snipe being slightly harder than feedback per se. But if you master both then it balances out etc (just an example). So maybe TvP is harder at your level. We know its not too hard at pro level, and its probably pretty damn easy in bronze with pure stim pushes. So I think your points, aloquently and nicely made, can only apply to a certain strata of SC2 I knew someone would post this after I saw Yosho's post. So of all matchups he happens to be "bad" only at TvP. Isn't that interesting? About your second argument. Isn't that the point of this whole thread? Yes, it's all experiences in his level of play, not in GSL. His level of play happens to be mid masters. We can safely assume then that same issue is experienced by lower players in the plat-diamond range. | ||
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drop271
New Zealand286 Posts
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On March 20 2012 20:47 drop271 wrote: Yes, it is interesting, but ffs its hardly enough to make such a wide generalisation on. And secondly, I use pro level as one example. But bronze is another. You can't assume that just because its hard in Masters then it must be the same in P/D. Thats the same as saying its easy at pro level so it must be easy at Masters. Every different level of skill has different imbalances in each match up. Nobody is making a wide generalisation based only on Yosho's case. The thing is pretty much every terran in plat-masters is complaining about TvP, particularly the late game phase, as you can see throughout this whole thread. So what do you guys (Protoss players) say? "You are all completely biased because you play Terran. There's nothing wrong with TvP" (I wonder who would complain about TvP if not Terran players lol). Then Yosho's come here as a random mid masters and show at least some evidence to discuss. And what do you guys do? "It just happens that he is bad at TvP of all matchups". I don't know what else would it take for you guys to even consider the possibility. Maybe every random player come here and post their matchups win rates? And about the bolded part. I guess it's safe to assume that a master player is MUCH MUCH MUCH closer to a diamond and even a plat player then they are to a professional player. Bronze players are a whole different thing. Most people at bronze struggle too much with the basics of the game to bare anything relevant in this discussion. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On March 20 2012 20:59 petro1987 wrote: Nobody is making a wide generalisation based only on Yosho's case. The thing is pretty much every terran in plat-masters is complaining about TvP, particularly the late game phase, as you can see throughout this whole thread. So what do you guys (Protoss players) say? "You are all completely biased because you play Terran. There's nothing wrong with TvP" (I wonder who would complain about TvP if not Terran players lol). Then Yosho's come here as a random mid masters and show at least some evidence to discuss. And what do you guys do? "It just happens that he is bad at TvP of all matchups". I don't know what else would it take for you guys to even consider the possibility. Maybe every random player come here and post their matchups win rates? And about the bolded part. I guess it's safe to assume that a master player is MUCH MUCH MUCH closer to a diamond and even a plat player then they are to a professional player. Bronze players are a whole different thing. Most people at bronze struggle too much with the basics of the game to bare anything relevant in this discussion. The reason alot of people, not only protoss players, say you and other terrans are biased is the fact that you jump at "evidence" like Yosho's case yet disregard any kind of "evidence" to suggest otherwise. It's a clear cut case of confirmation bias, and it's really clouding what is and what's not broken in the matchup. The amount of "terran played flawlessly while protoss a-move" shit mixed with legitimate complains make this thread a pain to read and a ground for both terran whine and protoss players coming here to defend their race and "skill", ultimately turning it into one of the worst threads on these forums. | ||
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On March 20 2012 21:33 karpo wrote: The reason alot of people, not only protoss players, say you and other terrans are biased is the fact that you jump at "evidence" like Yosho's case yet disregard any kind of "evidence" to suggest otherwise. It's a clear cut case of confirmation bias, and it's really clouding what is and what's not broken in the matchup. The amount of "terran played flawlessly while protoss a-move" shit mixed with legitimate complains make this thread a pain to read and a ground for both terran whine and protoss players coming here to defend their race and "skill", ultimately turning it into one of the worst threads on these forums. I'm yet to see any evidence otherwise, unless ofc you call evidence Protoss players simply denying it. I'm yet to see a random player post here that he happens to have a bad PvT and a good TvP. Why things like these never happen? Isn't that amusing? I do agree though that some terran posts in this thread have been over the top and it doesn't contribute to the discussion. | ||
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fishinguy
Russian Federation798 Posts
Non Terran players : Terran is not harder to play than other races No one changes their opinion, only balance whine, troll, flame and argue. It's all a bit pointless isnt it? | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
As for Bronze, they really truly don't count. I saw a friend play in Silver yesterday, she's T and went for a 111, the protoss built cannons all over her natural and third, didn't have units when the banshee arrived at his base. I guess that patricular P thinks siege tanks and Banshees are imba  | ||
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Bliks
United Kingdom3 Posts
The question is if Blizz can do anything about it. I would love to see some changes, that would make Toss less forgiving, which then shouldn't affect the high level too much. So maybe someone could suggest something instead of flaming each other and making what could be a good thread into a waste of time? | ||
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Falk1
Norway2 Posts
On March 20 2012 21:56 fishinguy wrote: Terran players : Terran is harder to play than other races Non Terran players : Terran is not harder to play than other races No one changes their opinion, only balance whine, troll, flame and argue. It's all a bit pointless isnt it? I thought a big majority of random players also says that terran is the hardest race to play. That has got to count for something, or? | ||
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TheAwesomeAll
Netherlands1609 Posts
On March 20 2012 22:03 Bliks wrote: So maybe someone could suggest something instead of flaming each other and making what could be a good thread into a waste of time? i cant imagine a change that only affects how forgiving a race is, except for maybe higher warp in times. (10 seconds instead of 5, doesnt affect production cycles at all just how quick you can respond to a missed drop or defend a lost battle) | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
On March 20 2012 06:03 Pulimuli wrote: if the game is shorter than like 7 minutes, yes or if you're in silver league I'm a Silver leaguer, even there mass marines don't work. I'm posting here because I hope this thread will become the voice of Terrans all over the world and Blizzard will try and balance the game out some more on my level of play. I just want to have fun, can't have fun with always losing to Protoss. It's really hard for me to keep up a good macro while dropping, while getting bunkers up, while balancing how much SCV's I need for repairing my bunkers, while balancing vikings on Colossi and kiting the auto-charging zealots, while dealing with the free to lurk everywhere Observer, while stressing out so much and the Protoss player just gets upgrades and pwns me slowly but surely. | ||
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freakhill
Japan463 Posts
On March 20 2012 22:10 KenDM wrote: I'm a Silver leaguer, even there mass marines don't work. I'm posting here because I hope this thread will become the voice of Terrans all over the world and Blizzard will try and balance the game out some more on my level of play. I just want to have fun, can't have fun with always losing to Protoss. It's really hard for me to keep up a good macro while dropping, while getting bunkers up, while balancing how much SCV's I need for repairing my bunkers, while balancing vikings on Colossi and kiting the auto-charging zealots, while dealing with the free to lurk everywhere Observer, while stressing out so much and the Protoss player just gets upgrades and pwns me slowly but surely. im around your level (high silver low gold). i changed my build to incorporate planetary fortresses and ghosts and now it works better. i can win if i reach midgame (i play random) | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
On March 20 2012 22:10 KenDM wrote: I'm a Silver leaguer, even there mass marines don't work. I'm posting here because I hope this thread will become the voice of Terrans all over the world and Blizzard will try and balance the game out some more on my level of play. I just want to have fun, can't have fun with always losing to Protoss. It's really hard for me to keep up a good macro while dropping, while getting bunkers up, while balancing how much SCV's I need for repairing my bunkers, while balancing vikings on Colossi and kiting the auto-charging zealots, while dealing with the free to lurk everywhere Observer, while stressing out so much and the Protoss player just gets upgrades and pwns me slowly but surely. See this post. How can anyone tell what is just whine and "grass is greener"-attitude and what's really balance? People say stuff like this in every competitive game, from every side and it's not a indicator of balance. Just the fact that people have a mentality where they just can't imagine a scenario where they are losing due to their own play. Just because there's alot of terrans claiming the same thing in this thread doesn't prove anything, as the thread is obviously catered to terrans who want to whine about protoss. This thread is not constructive and probably never will be with the overall attitude being "I played my heart out while he just sat in base with no APM winning easily due to balance". | ||
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Yosho
585 Posts
On March 20 2012 21:58 Ghanburighan wrote: I would very much like to know Yosho's win rates by the minute. Ie. for under 5 min games, under 10 minute games, etc. I find it fascinating. It would be great to get it for TvT and PvT too. It's this kind of evidence that allows us to think about the MU, no matter what the haters say. As for Bronze, they really truly don't count. I saw a friend play in Silver yesterday, she's T and went for a 111, the protoss built cannons all over her natural and third, didn't have units when the banshee arrived at his base. I guess that patricular P thinks siege tanks and Banshees are imba For some of the posts here who say mid masters, I'm high masters lol. I fight GM's most of the day. I state wins for TvT because My win ratio is incredibly high and that's better statistics, for TvP i put loss percentage as my win ratio is low. The first number is X amount of wins / losses. 2nd number and time include the first number as well. So this is out of a total 100% of games. so the 59% wins also include the first 10 minutes of the game. TvT - 32% of my games are won before the 10 minute mark. 59% are won before the 20 minute mark. This is because a lot of terrans try to all in often in tvt. 72% of my games are won before the 30 minute mark. TvP - 7% of my games are lost before the 10 minute mark. 26% of my games are lost before the 15 minute mark. 45% of my games are lost before the 20 minute mark. 86% of my games are lost before the 30 minute mark. Just some examples. As you can see my numbers start to increase at first with collasai timings. However I still maintain an even win ratio at this stage. I really decline once collasai + templar come out from a 55% survivability to a 14%. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On March 20 2012 13:34 Yosho wrote: I personally do believe that terran takes the most skill to play at this moment. Credentials; Random player and Master league on 1 korean account, 1 europe, 2 north america. All as random and not low masters either. 900+ points on NA and EU. 600+ on Korean. I thoroughly enjoy most matchups. I dislike TvP the most as it derails the longer the game goes on. I thoroughly enjoy PvT for the same reason. The longer I live, the harder it is to kill me. A few things to note as to why the terrans are complaining is that when you have this nice death ball from protoss it requires more actions for the terran to counter it. Protoss simply has to attack and focus on storms through *most* leagues at a lower level. While any terran at a lower level has to micro thoroughly vs collasai and zealots while trying to snipe the templar. This scales pretty much through all the leagues. While protoss CAN improve their deathball micro by retreating more and picking better positioning their race is very forgiving in that when we're positioning vikings, trying to kite your zealots, snipe / emp your army and templar and produce back at home because we can't just reinforce on the battlefield. We're also trying to keep marine / marauder, medivac / viking ratio's to match the protoss as well we can. When the engagement hits as a protoss I simply attack, warp in units, try to storm at the proper places and for the most part just move around my collasai if they get focused. I have a lot apm needed to fight the other side of the matchup. When one race has to severally outplay the other race as time goes on it grows apparent that there is something wrong in the matchup. If terran does not go into the late game with a severe lead it's rather easy to shut them down. As a minor example of what I mean, out of all my replays this season I have these ratios. ZvP - 54% ZvT - 57% ZvZ - 55% PvT 63% PvP 51% PvZ 72% TvZ 56% TvT 81% TvP 36% <- These are over 3 realms, 4 accounts, based on 506 replays. Over all I'm above average in my win ratio vs high masters / grandmasters. But look at my TvP? It's clear I don't have macro problems with terran as my TvT is amazing. All my other races are fine too. My TvP is such a low percentage that it doesn't seem possible for me to play that bad in 1 matchup out of 9 where I do pretty well in. Especially with only 36%. 506 replays isn't exactly a small sample size either... I'm not complaining about any races / matchups. I'm just saying as a high rated player, who shows consistency every matchup and does play them all at a high level... This stat is laughable. That is good evidence indeed. Although it's still the stereotypical "I have 30% winrate TvP and 80% TvT" that all the Terrans who complain seem to have, and I have explained countless times that it's just not possible for all Terrans to have 80% in their mirror. Don't take me wrong, I do believe you, it just seems like everybody has those, be it silver leaguers or high masters :D | ||
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KenDM
Netherlands206 Posts
On March 20 2012 22:17 freakhill wrote: im around your level (high silver low gold). i changed my build to incorporate planetary fortresses and ghosts and now it works better. i can win if i reach midgame (i play random) Just spending 400 minerals (and some more for transforming) for static defense doesn't seem like an ideal strategy to me tbh. Haven't tried it yet though. Thanks for mentioning ghosts. I forgot to tell I have trouble sniping their observers first before I can use my ghosts to pwn their HT's and even then it's a hell engaging their army. A PF would probably help, but it's so static :S I'd love to have Ravens with me (detection, turrets, PDD's, hell maybe even Seeker Hunter Missiles), but my APM kills me with ghosts and Ravens in the mix, you have to hotkey all those units seperately because if you select all of them you can't even stim anymore, the Raven has priority over all units, even the ghosts "E" command doesn't work because the Raven has priority. All the while they just A-move their zealots, Blink is so easy to do and just don't even get me started on the colossi. It might seem like I'm ranting, it's because I am. I feel like I need to play a ton of games just to get the micro under control while in a TvT and TvZ my micro doesn't need so much attention. And even then I'd feel like having to do three things at once while the Protoss does 1. I don't mind intense games, but it should be a little more rewarding, it shouldn't feel unfair. It's like god damned Christiano Ronaldo having so many goals of which 10 are penalties not even from his own actions while Messi scores almost all those goals without penalties. I so hope Messi wins that golden ball this year. Protoss = Ronaldo. Don't like. | ||
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
everyone knows that TvP is winnable, with no mistake from either player the terran even has a slight advantage in the first 10-15 minutes. with no mistake from either player in late game, protoss has an advantage. in lower leagues - people are far from perfect and you should be able to maintain a 1-base advantage regardless of upgrades or unit power which will allow you to win. the problem lies in higher level play (few human mistakes), where the metagame and map pool shifting to accomodate longer, more entertaining and deeper games. where the terran player is less likely to take advantage of his early window, because he doesn't want to be a cheap 1 or 2-base player. therefore he wants to play solid, safe and macro into the late game - which is inarguably detrimental. okay so this goes against the game logic, if terran are weak later, why are people playing to 'lose' ? answer: BECAUSE BLIZZARD KEEP NERFING/BUFFING STUFF. if blizzard keep nerfing and buffing stuff, instead of finding a solution - people will just cry to blizzard. therefore it's 100% correct for people to see an issue in TvP and cry for a fix. we can all blame blizzard for being slow and not fixing the game soon enough. hell, TvZ and ZvP are broken as well... to a lesser extent (at least protoss has gimmickship to diceroll with late game zerg, terran don't even have a diceroll vs late game protoss). | ||
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Monkay
Germany19 Posts
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On March 20 2012 22:19 karpo wrote: See this post. How can anyone tell what is just whine and "grass is greener"-attitude and what's really balance? People say stuff like this in every competitive game, from every side and it's not a indicator of balance. Just the fact that people have a mentality where they just can't imagine a scenario where they are losing due to their own play. Just because there's alot of terrans claiming the same thing in this thread doesn't prove anything, as the thread is obviously catered to terrans who want to whine about protoss. This thread is not constructive and probably never will be with the overall attitude being "I played my heart out while he just sat in base with no APM winning easily due to balance". It's kinda obvious that you're in this thread just to cherrypick bad terran posts and completely ignore posts like Yosho's. Everyone has stated already that bronze, silver and maybe even gold players (not sure about gold though) experiences are different. Most players at this level don't really follow the metagame. Oh and btw, I'm still waiting the evidence that proves otherwise. You said that I (and other terran players) completely disregard evidence that proves otherwise, but we're yet to see any. | ||
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