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On March 20 2012 03:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2012 23:17 magnaflow wrote:
Toss is broken. Somewhat weak early game (although they are learning how to deal with it) and far too strong of a late game. And the worst part of it all is whenever a PvX game is played it is boring as fuck to watch. Turtle up to 3 base and amove with deathball, not very entertaining. Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro. This is such a bitter little whine. You clearly have no understanding of Protoss whatsoever. This thread looks to be more and more derailing into Terran players complaining about how their race is the worst of them all. As to the OP. While I have definitely seen the trend of vanishing Terrans I seem to play more Terrans this season. I mostly play Zerg, then Terran and quite far behind Protoss. I never quite had that distribution yet. Might the Terrans be coming back or are they all busy on the forums complaining? 
What do you mean I have no understanding of protoss? What is there to understand? Toss has OP late game and requires LoL amount of skill to play.
Stick to doing your mediocre talk show JOJO.
User was warned for this post
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On March 20 2012 05:26 JOJOsc2news wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 05:19 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 05:17 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 20 2012 05:14 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 04:31 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 20 2012 03:54 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 03:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 19 2012 23:17 magnaflow wrote:
Toss is broken. Somewhat weak early game (although they are learning how to deal with it) and far too strong of a late game. And the worst part of it all is whenever a PvX game is played it is boring as fuck to watch. Turtle up to 3 base and amove with deathball, not very entertaining. Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro. This is such a bitter little whine. You clearly have no understanding of Protoss whatsoever. This thread looks to be more and more derailing into Terran players complaining about how their race is the worst of them all. As to the OP. While I have definitely seen the trend of vanishing Terrans I seem to play more Terrans this season. I mostly play Zerg, then Terran and quite far behind Protoss. I never quite had that distribution yet. Might the Terrans be coming back or are they all busy on the forums complaining? I understand that he's whining but why does he have no clue at all? I assume you are trolling but I will answer anyways. I said "no understanding of Protoss" not "no clue at all". Stop derailing! Why am I saying he has no understanding of Protoss? 1. "Toss is broken" Generalization 2. "Far too strong of a late game" Generalization 3. "Boring as fuck to watch" Generalization 4. "Turtle up to 3 base and a-move with deathball" Shows no understanding whatsoever. 5. "Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro." Shows no understanding whatsoever. I assure you I am not trolling. Maybe I'm just stupid, I cannot judge that. But just because he generalizes to what sounds to me standard protoss play doesn't quite means he has clearly no understanding whatsoever. Which I asked of you to eleborate on. I tend to agree with him on point 4 and 5 and I don't see how this is a generalization which apparently means a lack of understanding. Almost every terran in this thread seems to lack that understanding to some degree. Coincidence? So you are literally saying that Protoss does not require micro. You are also saying that Protoss just needs to turtle to a deathball on three bases and then simply a-move (we already established no micro!). You have to be trolling. How is he trolling, and how are either of those statements untrue? You can't a move anything. You have to individually bring Zealots to the front otherwise they are stuck behind stalkers. You have to do forcefields, guardian shields, storms, feedbacks, position high templars right to feedback or dodge ghosts. You have to individually micro Stalkers as well as Colossus to keep the Colossus alive and maximize their damage output. This is just a tiny little example of your deathball theory about a-moving. Going up to three bases in a defensive manner is common because Protoss is extremely vulnerable in the transition period into HT tech or Robo tech. I am not actually arguing with someone who says Protoss does not require any micro. That statement alone is proof enough of the fact that nothing valuable can come out of a dialogue with them.
Come on man.... move idividual zealots? Control collosus? Leave HT in the back, zealots move themselves to the front of the line, no button required to do so, the most amount of micro you have to do with collosus is easily click on them and maybe move them back a bit, quit trying so hard to make it look like that amount of micro is even required.
Shit even look at the SC2 master game that BLizzard came out with, the easiest challenges are all protoss.
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Protoss is hardest race yo.
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On March 20 2012 07:42 envect wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 07:30 Elmyr wrote:On March 20 2012 07:20 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:On March 20 2012 07:14 Elmyr wrote:
thank god the balancing isn't done by vote. it seems like everyone in this thread just wants the game to devolve into deathball vs. deathball. i actually like it that terran can't take on a 200/200 P/Z army. they have to work around it. it's called strategy. That promotes unexciting play though. It's incredibly boring to watch a toss mass up to 200 off of 3 base and then go. I don't care what it means for balance, that's bad for Starcraft as a spectator e-sport.. Toss should have a better way/more incentive to move out before max. this is not a race issue. if spectators want to see protoss play more aggressive change the maps. make the base areas bigger and expo's more spread out so drops are more effective. then protoss will need to get aggressive unless they want to get picked apart. right now there's really no need for this though. So you admit the simple 200 supply turtle and a-click win by a toss. That's no fun at all to play/watch
I cannot remember the last time I watched a professional game where boths sides just macroed up on three bases with no aggression at all.
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Here are some stats from Sc2rankings.com
On a Global level (distribution of races):
Protoss Terran Zerg
In GM: 36.1% (401) 29.9% (332) 32.2% (358)
In Master: 33.6% (8,249) 29.5% (7,254) 33.0% (8,105)
In Diamond: 32.1% (15,131) 26.5% (12,474) 34.8% (16,430)
In Platinum: 32.2% (27,029) 25.4% (21,338) 33.7% (28,275)
In Europe:
In GM: 39.9% (83) 26.9% (56) 33.2% (69)
In Master: 34.0% (2,973) 28.1% (2,459) 34.4% (3,004)
In Diamond: 32.9% (5,502) 25.8% (4,308) 35.6% (5,947)
In Platinum: 32.3% (9,823) 25.0% (7,598) 35.4% (10,768)
I did not include Random.
Even though I wouldnt consider this a huge difference, its problematic if the trend continues (people switching from Terran to Zerg and Protoss). Further, Terran is underperforming compared to Z and P up to a Master level, according to Blizzard.
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On March 20 2012 08:22 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 07:42 envect wrote:On March 20 2012 07:30 Elmyr wrote:On March 20 2012 07:20 RDaneelOlivaw wrote:On March 20 2012 07:14 Elmyr wrote:
thank god the balancing isn't done by vote. it seems like everyone in this thread just wants the game to devolve into deathball vs. deathball. i actually like it that terran can't take on a 200/200 P/Z army. they have to work around it. it's called strategy. That promotes unexciting play though. It's incredibly boring to watch a toss mass up to 200 off of 3 base and then go. I don't care what it means for balance, that's bad for Starcraft as a spectator e-sport.. Toss should have a better way/more incentive to move out before max. this is not a race issue. if spectators want to see protoss play more aggressive change the maps. make the base areas bigger and expo's more spread out so drops are more effective. then protoss will need to get aggressive unless they want to get picked apart. right now there's really no need for this though. So you admit the simple 200 supply turtle and a-click win by a toss. That's no fun at all to play/watch I cannot remember the last time I watched a professional game where boths sides just macroed up on three bases with no aggression at all.
Yep, T and Z usually harass.
Wait, what? you've seen a PvP without an all in or nr20m colossus macro?
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I love how this site tries very hard to avoid shit posting, yet leaves this thread open.
Just on this page, theres some guy telling someone else that their show is shit because they have different viewpoints, someone citing STARCRAFT MASTER, "Protoss is hardest race yo. ", someone citing amateur statistics which are completely useless in a balance discussion since theyre not professional, and someone saying protoss is OP because they have no effective way to harass (dat logic... ouch).
Needless to say, my hopes arent high for pages 98+
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On March 20 2012 10:59 allerion wrote:
I love how this site tries very hard to avoid shit posting, yet leaves this thread open.
Just on this page, theres some guy telling someone else that their show is shit because they have different viewpoints, someone citing STARCRAFT MASTER, "Protoss is hardest race yo. ", someone citing amateur statistics which are completely useless in a balance discussion since theyre not professional, and someone saying protoss is OP because they have no effective way to harass (dat logic... ouch).
Needless to say, my hopes arent high for pages 98+
It's to keep all the balance whine here and not all over the website.
Personally, I enjoy reading this thread.
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The current metagame does not favor terran, its only natural people are frustrated and are either not playing as much or switching races completely. People say terran is imba or whatever, but its only been code s terrans who have been dominant. Give it time, the metagame will shift once someone figures out new styles, tactics or who knows what. Its still a young game.
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On March 20 2012 10:59 allerion wrote:
I love how this site tries very hard to avoid shit posting, yet leaves this thread open.
Just on this page, theres some guy telling someone else that their show is shit because they have different viewpoints, someone citing STARCRAFT MASTER, "Protoss is hardest race yo. ", someone citing amateur statistics which are completely useless in a balance discussion since theyre not professional, and someone saying protoss is OP because they have no effective way to harass (dat logic... ouch).
Needless to say, my hopes arent high for pages 98+
Yup, people get very mad and emotional and post stuff that are either exaggerations ("Protoss micro takes NO SKILL") or just plain wrong ("Protoss a-moves their army").
The fact of the matter is, people aren't exploiting the weaknesses of Protoss (defending harass, early scouting). I don't really care either way, they can continue to stay mad and keep at it. I'm not concerned with the amount of fun someone else is having in a game.
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On March 20 2012 06:10 Willba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 06:04 karpo wrote:On March 20 2012 05:29 Instigata wrote:
Terran will get through this no problem. Zergs and Protoss have cried like babies and Blizzard buffs them or nerfs Terran. Terran didn't even care about removal of the Amulet since emp is workable vs high templars and is good against Protoss units. Real men play Terran though. Thorzain and the Korean Terrans will find a way that will eventually be nerfed by the cries of the Zergs and Protoss. More nerfs until Flash moves over to SC2 and masters BitByBit and owns with scvs and marines. Many more Terrans will quit but only the most skilled will be left making other race users skill pale in comparison. What a crock of shit. Terrans whined a bunch about warpin storms, it's one of the biggest reasons it got removed. Terrans whined about voids rays too, and they got nerfed. Are you really going to keep telling yourself that good ol' terran only gets nerfed but they suck it up while other races whine? Just look at this thread for a perfect example of whining from a bunch of terran players. lol it's a joke calm down, stuff gets nerfed because its too good, not because random newbies whine about it.
Then wtf was the ghost snipe nerf?
QXC did a very nice thread on why it was a bad idea to nerf snipe universally, and now the Ghost is a near-useless unit in anything except TvP.
Before this, there were 'random newbies' whining about how Snipe won Blizzcon because it was OP, and not because NesTea did not have any detection or infestors with his broodlord deathflock.
Now look where we are, and tell me that what you said is true.
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Terran need a solid T3 buff the battlecruiser to viable damage and come with yamato. And maybe buff ghosts back to what they were a few patches ago( but with qxc's suggestions of minus damage on snipe for massive).
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On March 20 2012 04:56 itsjuspeter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 04:36 VoO wrote:On March 20 2012 04:31 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 20 2012 03:54 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 03:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 19 2012 23:17 magnaflow wrote:
Toss is broken. Somewhat weak early game (although they are learning how to deal with it) and far too strong of a late game. And the worst part of it all is whenever a PvX game is played it is boring as fuck to watch. Turtle up to 3 base and amove with deathball, not very entertaining. Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro. This is such a bitter little whine. You clearly have no understanding of Protoss whatsoever. This thread looks to be more and more derailing into Terran players complaining about how their race is the worst of them all. As to the OP. While I have definitely seen the trend of vanishing Terrans I seem to play more Terrans this season. I mostly play Zerg, then Terran and quite far behind Protoss. I never quite had that distribution yet. Might the Terrans be coming back or are they all busy on the forums complaining? I understand that he's whining but why does he have no clue at all? I assume you are trolling but I will answer anyways. I said "no understanding of Protoss" not "no clue at all". Stop derailing! Why am I saying he has no understanding of Protoss? 1. "Toss is broken" Generalization 2. "Far too strong of a late game" Generalization 3. "Boring as fuck to watch" Generalization 4. "Turtle up to 3 base and a-move with deathball" Shows no understanding whatsoever. 5. "Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro." Shows no understanding whatsoever. You can't play a lot of ladder then. That's how 90% play. Hell, that's how I play Protoss. Really? That's how 90% play? I can make up statistics too, 100% of Terrans think Protoss is OP according to this thread. But honestly, not every protoss plays the way "you do". I play with timing attacks and when I feel like it I will do safe SG expo into a third. It's not "turtle on 3 bases and win every game" We all do different things in different matchups. My GM protoss friends can attest to that and so can I. You can probably do the turtle/roll with deathball strat up to diamond, but it wont work as well any higher.
I don't think Terrans think Protoss is OP. They think late game TvP has a lot of issues, which is inarguable.
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I'm a former diamond terran, and have switched to protoss - mostly to try and learn TvP from the other side. I'll go back to Terran eventually of course.
My insight has been that PvP seems much more stable than TvT - imo there are fewer 'oh wtf how can I scout that coming' moments. You still lose 50% of the time I'm sure, but at least you know why and how to correct it. So, from my perspective, PvP seems less frustrating and bewildering than TvT can be.
PvT seems just as hard to play as TvP. Its a great matchup with both sides needing to respond and scout. But it seems a bit less taxing mentally as Toss since the Terrans seem to be in a very stable metagame - they all seem to 1rax expo into FE (with or w/o gas). Occassionally you get a 1/1/1 but you spot that a mile off. In TvP there are (it seems) more openers to accomodate, and you have to cede a good deal of early map control if you FE.
And PvZ is just fun. No banelings to worry about (yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay).
So tl:dr, from my perspective as someone who has switched from T to P, P less frustrating to play at diamond level. I'm NOT saying anything about balance. I'm just saying that the mistakes and changes are a bit clearer than 'fucking reapers' 'fucking banelings' 'fucking dts' 'fucking psi storm' that seems to precede the many Terran ragequits. As a protoss, fewer of my matches seem like a massive armwrestle. But for Terran - TvT, TvP and TvZ can all go late game and be stressful.
But..... this is also why I look forward to going back to Terran. All the matchups are epic (if taxing) encounters
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On March 20 2012 12:07 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 04:56 itsjuspeter wrote:On March 20 2012 04:36 VoO wrote:On March 20 2012 04:31 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 20 2012 03:54 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 03:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 19 2012 23:17 magnaflow wrote:
Toss is broken. Somewhat weak early game (although they are learning how to deal with it) and far too strong of a late game. And the worst part of it all is whenever a PvX game is played it is boring as fuck to watch. Turtle up to 3 base and amove with deathball, not very entertaining. Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro. This is such a bitter little whine. You clearly have no understanding of Protoss whatsoever. This thread looks to be more and more derailing into Terran players complaining about how their race is the worst of them all. As to the OP. While I have definitely seen the trend of vanishing Terrans I seem to play more Terrans this season. I mostly play Zerg, then Terran and quite far behind Protoss. I never quite had that distribution yet. Might the Terrans be coming back or are they all busy on the forums complaining? I understand that he's whining but why does he have no clue at all? I assume you are trolling but I will answer anyways. I said "no understanding of Protoss" not "no clue at all". Stop derailing! Why am I saying he has no understanding of Protoss? 1. "Toss is broken" Generalization 2. "Far too strong of a late game" Generalization 3. "Boring as fuck to watch" Generalization 4. "Turtle up to 3 base and a-move with deathball" Shows no understanding whatsoever. 5. "Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro." Shows no understanding whatsoever. You can't play a lot of ladder then. That's how 90% play. Hell, that's how I play Protoss. Really? That's how 90% play? I can make up statistics too, 100% of Terrans think Protoss is OP according to this thread. But honestly, not every protoss plays the way "you do". I play with timing attacks and when I feel like it I will do safe SG expo into a third. It's not "turtle on 3 bases and win every game" We all do different things in different matchups. My GM protoss friends can attest to that and so can I. You can probably do the turtle/roll with deathball strat up to diamond, but it wont work as well any higher. I don't think Terrans think Protoss is OP. They think late game TvP has a lot of issues, which is inarguable.
If the arguments of this thread started that way, it has quickly degraded into Protoss is the A-move-OP-death-ball-no-defenders-advantage-ez-pz-warp-in thread. Any constructive arguments have been burned away.
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Terrans should be happy that their race is recognized as being the race that requires the most skill to play.
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On March 20 2012 12:43 KevinIX wrote:
Terrans should be happy that their race is recognized as being the race that requires the most skill to play.
Nice flame bait haha.
I don't think anyone really recognises that
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On March 20 2012 12:24 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 12:07 mlspmatt wrote:On March 20 2012 04:56 itsjuspeter wrote:On March 20 2012 04:36 VoO wrote:On March 20 2012 04:31 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 20 2012 03:54 Bojas wrote:On March 20 2012 03:51 JOJOsc2news wrote:On March 19 2012 23:17 magnaflow wrote:
Toss is broken. Somewhat weak early game (although they are learning how to deal with it) and far too strong of a late game. And the worst part of it all is whenever a PvX game is played it is boring as fuck to watch. Turtle up to 3 base and amove with deathball, not very entertaining. Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro. This is such a bitter little whine. You clearly have no understanding of Protoss whatsoever. This thread looks to be more and more derailing into Terran players complaining about how their race is the worst of them all. As to the OP. While I have definitely seen the trend of vanishing Terrans I seem to play more Terrans this season. I mostly play Zerg, then Terran and quite far behind Protoss. I never quite had that distribution yet. Might the Terrans be coming back or are they all busy on the forums complaining? I understand that he's whining but why does he have no clue at all? I assume you are trolling but I will answer anyways. I said "no understanding of Protoss" not "no clue at all". Stop derailing! Why am I saying he has no understanding of Protoss? 1. "Toss is broken" Generalization 2. "Far too strong of a late game" Generalization 3. "Boring as fuck to watch" Generalization 4. "Turtle up to 3 base and a-move with deathball" Shows no understanding whatsoever. 5. "Toss needs to be made more difficult to play and actually require micro." Shows no understanding whatsoever. You can't play a lot of ladder then. That's how 90% play. Hell, that's how I play Protoss. Really? That's how 90% play? I can make up statistics too, 100% of Terrans think Protoss is OP according to this thread. But honestly, not every protoss plays the way "you do". I play with timing attacks and when I feel like it I will do safe SG expo into a third. It's not "turtle on 3 bases and win every game" We all do different things in different matchups. My GM protoss friends can attest to that and so can I. You can probably do the turtle/roll with deathball strat up to diamond, but it wont work as well any higher. I don't think Terrans think Protoss is OP. They think late game TvP has a lot of issues, which is inarguable. If the arguments of this thread started that way, it has quickly degraded into Protoss is the A-move-OP-death-ball-no-defenders-advantage-ez-pz-warp-in thread. Any constructive arguments have been burned away.
Yep, the thread is really coming to its end :D
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On March 20 2012 12:49 drop271 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 12:43 KevinIX wrote:
Terrans should be happy that their race is recognized as being the race that requires the most skill to play. Nice flame bait haha. I don't think anyone really recognises that
I personally do believe that terran takes the most skill to play at this moment.
Credentials; Random player and Master league on 1 korean account, 1 europe, 2 north america. All as random and not low masters either. 900+ points on NA and EU. 600+ on Korean.
I thoroughly enjoy most matchups. I dislike TvP the most as it derails the longer the game goes on. I thoroughly enjoy PvT for the same reason. The longer I live, the harder it is to kill me.
A few things to note as to why the terrans are complaining is that when you have this nice death ball from protoss it requires more actions for the terran to counter it. Protoss simply has to attack and focus on storms through *most* leagues at a lower level. While any terran at a lower level has to micro thoroughly vs collasai and zealots while trying to snipe the templar. This scales pretty much through all the leagues.
While protoss CAN improve their deathball micro by retreating more and picking better positioning their race is very forgiving in that when we're positioning vikings, trying to kite your zealots, snipe / emp your army and templar and produce back at home because we can't just reinforce on the battlefield. We're also trying to keep marine / marauder, medivac / viking ratio's to match the protoss as well we can.
When the engagement hits as a protoss I simply attack, warp in units, try to storm at the proper places and for the most part just move around my collasai if they get focused. I have a lot apm needed to fight the other side of the matchup. When one race has to severally outplay the other race as time goes on it grows apparent that there is something wrong in the matchup. If terran does not go into the late game with a severe lead it's rather easy to shut them down.
As a minor example of what I mean, out of all my replays this season I have these ratios.
ZvP - 54%
ZvT - 57%
ZvZ - 55%
PvT 63%
PvP 51%
PvZ 72%
TvZ 56%
TvT 81%
TvP 36% <-
These are over 3 realms, 4 accounts, based on 506 replays.
Over all I'm above average in my win ratio vs high masters / grandmasters. But look at my TvP? It's clear I don't have macro problems with terran as my TvT is amazing. All my other races are fine too. My TvP is such a low percentage that it doesn't seem possible for me to play that bad in 1 matchup out of 9 where I do pretty well in. Especially with only 36%. 506 replays isn't exactly a small sample size either...
I'm not complaining about any races / matchups. I'm just saying as a high rated player, who shows consistency every matchup and does play them all at a high level... This stat is laughable.
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On March 20 2012 13:34 Yosho wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 12:49 drop271 wrote:On March 20 2012 12:43 KevinIX wrote:
Terrans should be happy that their race is recognized as being the race that requires the most skill to play. Nice flame bait haha. I don't think anyone really recognises that I personally do believe that terran takes the most skill to play at this moment. Credentials; Random player and Master league on 1 korean account, 1 europe, 2 north america. All as random and not low masters either. 900+ points on NA and EU. 600+ on Korean. I thoroughly enjoy most matchups. I dislike TvP the most as it derails the longer the game goes on. I thoroughly enjoy PvT for the same reason. The longer I live, the harder it is to kill me. A few things to note as to why the terrans are complaining is that when you have this nice death ball from protoss it requires more actions for the terran to counter it. Protoss simply has to attack and focus on storms through *most* leagues at a lower level. While any terran at a lower level has to micro thoroughly vs collasai and zealots while trying to snipe the templar. This scales pretty much through all the leagues. While protoss CAN improve their deathball micro by retreating more and picking better positioning their race is very forgiving in that when we're positioning vikings, trying to kite your zealots, snipe / emp your army and templar and produce back at home because we can't just reinforce on the battlefield. We're also trying to keep marine / marauder, medivac / viking ratio's to match the protoss as well we can. When the engagement hits as a protoss I simply attack, warp in units, try to storm at the proper places and for the most part just move around my collasai if they get focused. I have a lot apm needed to fight the other side of the matchup. When one race has to severally outplay the other race as time goes on it grows apparent that there is something wrong in the matchup. If terran does not go into the late game with a severe lead it's rather easy to shut them down. As a minor example of what I mean, out of all my replays this season I have these ratios. ZvP - 54% ZvT - 57% ZvZ - 55% PvT 63% PvP 51% PvZ 72% TvZ 56% TvT 81% TvP 36% <- These are over 3 realms, 4 accounts, based on 506 replays. Over all I'm above average in my win ratio vs high masters / grandmasters. But look at my TvP? It's clear I don't have macro problems with terran as my TvT is amazing. All my other races are fine too. My TvP is such a low percentage that it doesn't seem possible for me to play that bad in 1 matchup out of 9 where I do pretty well in. Especially with only 36%. 506 replays isn't exactly a small sample size either... I'm not complaining about any races / matchups. I'm just saying as a high rated player, who shows consistency every matchup and does play them all at a high level... This stat is laughable.
This is a pretty nice data sample. Unfortunately, most Protoss players will just disregard your post completely and say that your evidence is anedoctal. They may also say that you're actually a Terran player disguised as random and therefore biased. Good luck with that.
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EPT
