|
On March 20 2012 15:15 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 14:51 tomatriedes wrote:On March 20 2012 12:20 drop271 wrote:
I'm a former diamond terran, and have switched to protoss - mostly to try and learn TvP from the other side. I'll go back to Terran eventually of course.
My insight has been that PvP seems much more stable than TvT - imo there are fewer 'oh wtf how can I scout that coming' moments. You still lose 50% of the time I'm sure, but at least you know why and how to correct it. So, from my perspective, PvP seems less frustrating and bewildering than TvT can be.
PvT seems just as hard to play as TvP. Its a great matchup with both sides needing to respond and scout. But it seems a bit less taxing mentally as Toss since the Terrans seem to be in a very stable metagame - they all seem to 1rax expo into FE (with or w/o gas). Occassionally you get a 1/1/1 but you spot that a mile off. In TvP there are (it seems) more openers to accomodate, and you have to cede a good deal of early map control if you FE.
And PvZ is just fun. No banelings to worry about (yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay).
So tl:dr, from my perspective as someone who has switched from T to P, P less frustrating to play at diamond level. I'm NOT saying anything about balance. I'm just saying that the mistakes and changes are a bit clearer than 'fucking reapers' 'fucking banelings' 'fucking dts' 'fucking psi storm' that seems to precede the many Terran ragequits. As a protoss, fewer of my matches seem like a massive armwrestle. But for Terran - TvT, TvP and TvZ can all go late game and be stressful.
But..... this is also why I look forward to going back to Terran. All the matchups are epic (if taxing) encounters How dare you say that!? Don't you know that paying terran takes 1000 times more skill than other races? Don't you know that the only thing holding back every terran whiner in this thread from being in the GSL is the fact that they chose the race they did? Spare us the sarcasm, god knows there's been enough of it over the past 80+ pages. People should pay more attention to quality posts like Yosho's. He's a top master RANDOM player, citing many of the same problems in TvP that the rest of us "biased Terran players" have been trying to make clear. BeastyQT even lent his professional opinion on the matter and people simply choose to ignore it. The only reason this thread has gone to crap is because everyone is just cherry picking the worst posts and choosing them to highlight why the other side is wrong. Instead of looking at the quality posts.
And there's been good posts from Blazinghand, Naruto and other good terran players saying that the match up is not that imbalanced which are also being ignored and disregarded. Maybe it's not good to be sarcastic but when you have silver leaguers blaming their losses on balance and others claiming that protoss requires no micro at all you can see the thread is hardly useful anymore. Anyway I'm going to try to stop responding from now. My last word is that the match up is more balanced now at the pro level as evidenced by TLPD win rate graphs than it was last year and pro level balance by necessity trumps ladder balance. Look at PvT balance in BW and you'll understand (P>T at ICCup D level but practically balanced at pro level). You give one race a bunch of buffs so ladder players can have an easier time and you're going to ruin the pro scene.
|
@DeMusliM- protoss is actually pretty bullshit.
Balanced (50% winrate) may not mean fair. One race wins 100% early game the other race wins 100% late game.
Now, would you like to play such a "balanced" match-up? Rhetorical question.
|
I think you also don't get it at all. No one is denying it is balanced at pro-level, but 99.99% of the people are not pros, so it would be nice if it was also balanced for them.
Two storms can completely decimate a terran army. Pros will counter that by sniping the HTs in time, while dodging the storms, stutter stepping their marines, micro'ing vikings and producing reinforcements. Sadly by far the majority cannot do that, we just lack the micro skills. Then you can say we should become better, but that would be a stupid comment.
Of course it wont be easy to balance it for everyone, but only looking at the pros for balancing is also a bad idea.
Anyway I made specially for this topic an account. I am a diamond terran player, who also likes to say what everyone else says. Late game against protos as terran on my level is just suicide. I am pretty sure I havent won in months late game against a protos. Now I will readily admit late game is not my strongest point, but still it isnt nearly as bad against other terrans and zerg players.
Am I whining about that? Nop, it is the protoss players who are whining about it (which they do kinda often btw). Because I adapted, if they got on my level such an enormous advantage late game, I simply got to kill them before they arrive there. My win prc is then also above 50% against protoss, achieved by doing semi-cheesy stuff/timing pushes/etc. Now I dont have any problems with them, but the amount of protoss raging that terrans only play agressive and never do macro games suggest they do have a problem with it. In other words, if you dont want to get all-in'ed so often by terrans, ask blizzard to boost terran late game.
Now a bit more inline with the topic title, it is a simple fact terran is played least outside bronze and pro-area. Kinda hard to deny. But luckily blizzard can always nerf them more 
|
On March 21 2012 02:52 tomatriedes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2012 15:15 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 14:51 tomatriedes wrote:On March 20 2012 12:20 drop271 wrote:
I'm a former diamond terran, and have switched to protoss - mostly to try and learn TvP from the other side. I'll go back to Terran eventually of course.
My insight has been that PvP seems much more stable than TvT - imo there are fewer 'oh wtf how can I scout that coming' moments. You still lose 50% of the time I'm sure, but at least you know why and how to correct it. So, from my perspective, PvP seems less frustrating and bewildering than TvT can be.
PvT seems just as hard to play as TvP. Its a great matchup with both sides needing to respond and scout. But it seems a bit less taxing mentally as Toss since the Terrans seem to be in a very stable metagame - they all seem to 1rax expo into FE (with or w/o gas). Occassionally you get a 1/1/1 but you spot that a mile off. In TvP there are (it seems) more openers to accomodate, and you have to cede a good deal of early map control if you FE.
And PvZ is just fun. No banelings to worry about (yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay).
So tl:dr, from my perspective as someone who has switched from T to P, P less frustrating to play at diamond level. I'm NOT saying anything about balance. I'm just saying that the mistakes and changes are a bit clearer than 'fucking reapers' 'fucking banelings' 'fucking dts' 'fucking psi storm' that seems to precede the many Terran ragequits. As a protoss, fewer of my matches seem like a massive armwrestle. But for Terran - TvT, TvP and TvZ can all go late game and be stressful.
But..... this is also why I look forward to going back to Terran. All the matchups are epic (if taxing) encounters How dare you say that!? Don't you know that paying terran takes 1000 times more skill than other races? Don't you know that the only thing holding back every terran whiner in this thread from being in the GSL is the fact that they chose the race they did? Spare us the sarcasm, god knows there's been enough of it over the past 80+ pages. People should pay more attention to quality posts like Yosho's. He's a top master RANDOM player, citing many of the same problems in TvP that the rest of us "biased Terran players" have been trying to make clear. BeastyQT even lent his professional opinion on the matter and people simply choose to ignore it. The only reason this thread has gone to crap is because everyone is just cherry picking the worst posts and choosing them to highlight why the other side is wrong. Instead of looking at the quality posts. And there's been good posts from Blazinghand, Naruto and other good terran players saying that the match up is not that imbalanced which are also being ignored and disregarded. Maybe it's not good to be sarcastic but when you have silver leaguers blaming their losses on balance and others claiming that protoss requires no micro at all you can see the thread is hardly useful anymore. Anyway I'm going to try to stop responding from now. My last word is that the match up is more balanced now at the pro level as evidenced by TLPD win rate graphs than it was last year and pro level balance by necessity trumps ladder balance. Look at PvT balance in BW and you'll understand (P>T at ICCup D level but practically balanced at pro level). You give one race a bunch of buffs so ladder players can have an easier time and you're going to ruin the pro scene.
Nobody is saying the matchup is imbalaced in pro level, because that's not what we are discussing here in the first place. Maybe Naruto is talking about his level of play (GM Level I guess). He sure isn't talking about master level or below.
Then you bring the point that in BW P>T at ICCup D level. Well, it's true. But as you may know things get a lot more even in C level (what most would agree that are likely masters in SC2) and beyond. I guess your whole point here is: the hell with every terran below GM, right? "Just get to GM and you'll be fine".
Also, I believe most terran players in this thread are in the plat-masters range. There are some silvers, but it's not the majority at all. You're just cherrypicking.
|
United States13143 Posts
On March 21 2012 03:04 Kakaru2 wrote:
@DeMusliM- protoss is actually pretty bullshit.
Balanced (50% winrate) may not mean fair. One race wins 100% early game the other race wins 100% late game.
Now, would you like to play such a "balanced" match-up? Rhetorical question.
Actually this is pretty trivially an unbalanced matchup since the race that wins 100% early game always wins.
|
On March 21 2012 03:12 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 03:04 Kakaru2 wrote:
@DeMusliM- protoss is actually pretty bullshit.
Balanced (50% winrate) may not mean fair. One race wins 100% early game the other race wins 100% late game.
Now, would you like to play such a "balanced" match-up? Rhetorical question. Actually this is pretty trivially an unbalanced matchup since the race that wins 100% early game always wins.
Not sure if you're trolling. But in case you are not, he meant that 100% of one race victories comes from early game and 100% of the other race victories comes from late game. In other words, after 10min, for example, the other race always wins, but it still loses half their games before that.
|
On March 21 2012 03:16 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 03:12 Elyvilon wrote:On March 21 2012 03:04 Kakaru2 wrote:
@DeMusliM- protoss is actually pretty bullshit.
Balanced (50% winrate) may not mean fair. One race wins 100% early game the other race wins 100% late game.
Now, would you like to play such a "balanced" match-up? Rhetorical question. Actually this is pretty trivially an unbalanced matchup since the race that wins 100% early game always wins. Not sure if you're trolling. But in case you are not, he meant that 100% of one race victories comes from early game and 100% of the other race victories comes from late game. In other words, after 10min, for example, the other race always wins, but it still loses half their games before that.
I think Elyvilon was ignoring the fact that you don't *have to* push it to the mid game or late game, and so if Race X somehow omnisciently knows it can win 100% of the time in the early game, they would just rush every time and *there would never even be a late game statistic to look at, because there would never be a match that makes it to the late game*.
But yeah. Obviously plenty of games go to the mid and lates games ^^
|
On March 21 2012 03:12 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 03:04 Kakaru2 wrote:
@DeMusliM- protoss is actually pretty bullshit.
Balanced (50% winrate) may not mean fair. One race wins 100% early game the other race wins 100% late game.
Now, would you like to play such a "balanced" match-up? Rhetorical question. Actually this is pretty trivially an unbalanced matchup since the race that wins 100% early game always wins.
Nope. You took the bait  . A race can win 100% early game, but only if the player chooses to attack. If he prefers to macro then the game will go on and we arrive at late game where he will lose.
That's why protoss are complaining about terran agressivity after they get medivac and upgrades (technically midgame). Or 1-1-1 pushes. because this is the only way to win, and so mantain that 50% winrate. Specially in GSL.
This is no fun matchup, and blizzard should change it. How? Solutions were proposed, nerf early game/buff late game for terran, beasty proposed to make zeloats charge microable, other solution which I personally prefer is to get rid of warpgate and buff toss gateway units.
heck, for an expansion(HotS/LotV) I'd love to get rid of sentry as well and make toss capable to fight on his own versus terran/zerg. Forcefield mechanic makes toss unit should be weak early game, if they lose it and buff zel/stalker (for instance twilight upgrades come from start, no need to research it, or cost 50/50, or whatever balance requires) and there is also no warpgate (because 4gate would be sick then) then we have a new cool game where toss is actually incentivized to make small/mid army attack instead of waiting for deathball out of 3 bases.
I think that a lot of people think that Protoss is the worst designed race of SC2, so radical measures should be taken.
There were no gimmick mechanics in Broodwar and protoss was just fine,
|
problem is, It takes strong execution to play terran correctly and win.
|
If we look at broodwar, terran was the worst race for casuals. Same goes with sc2, terran is very powerful at the high levels. Simply becasue the skill cap with somany of the units is almost unreachable, the marine can always be more efficent and the baneling not. The baneling you rightn click on a marin and hope for the best. I suggest everyone here goes to darglein's micro trainer and practice everything.
|
I (used to?) "main" Terran in mid master and I have a much higher win rate when offracing as Protoss :D Most losses come from zerg allins cos I don't actually know the FFE bo's & building placements lol. PvT feels super relaxing and unless he completely surprises or outplays me, it just feels like a free win. I really don't think most Protosses here who claim PvT is hard for P, have ever tried playing real T games. Probably gonna be rolling as Protoss for a while, till some big metagame shift or patch comes along, sorry T brothers & good luck!
|
On March 21 2012 03:10 petro1987 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 02:52 tomatriedes wrote:On March 20 2012 15:15 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 14:51 tomatriedes wrote:On March 20 2012 12:20 drop271 wrote:
I'm a former diamond terran, and have switched to protoss - mostly to try and learn TvP from the other side. I'll go back to Terran eventually of course.
My insight has been that PvP seems much more stable than TvT - imo there are fewer 'oh wtf how can I scout that coming' moments. You still lose 50% of the time I'm sure, but at least you know why and how to correct it. So, from my perspective, PvP seems less frustrating and bewildering than TvT can be.
PvT seems just as hard to play as TvP. Its a great matchup with both sides needing to respond and scout. But it seems a bit less taxing mentally as Toss since the Terrans seem to be in a very stable metagame - they all seem to 1rax expo into FE (with or w/o gas). Occassionally you get a 1/1/1 but you spot that a mile off. In TvP there are (it seems) more openers to accomodate, and you have to cede a good deal of early map control if you FE.
And PvZ is just fun. No banelings to worry about (yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay).
So tl:dr, from my perspective as someone who has switched from T to P, P less frustrating to play at diamond level. I'm NOT saying anything about balance. I'm just saying that the mistakes and changes are a bit clearer than 'fucking reapers' 'fucking banelings' 'fucking dts' 'fucking psi storm' that seems to precede the many Terran ragequits. As a protoss, fewer of my matches seem like a massive armwrestle. But for Terran - TvT, TvP and TvZ can all go late game and be stressful.
But..... this is also why I look forward to going back to Terran. All the matchups are epic (if taxing) encounters How dare you say that!? Don't you know that paying terran takes 1000 times more skill than other races? Don't you know that the only thing holding back every terran whiner in this thread from being in the GSL is the fact that they chose the race they did? Spare us the sarcasm, god knows there's been enough of it over the past 80+ pages. People should pay more attention to quality posts like Yosho's. He's a top master RANDOM player, citing many of the same problems in TvP that the rest of us "biased Terran players" have been trying to make clear. BeastyQT even lent his professional opinion on the matter and people simply choose to ignore it. The only reason this thread has gone to crap is because everyone is just cherry picking the worst posts and choosing them to highlight why the other side is wrong. Instead of looking at the quality posts. And there's been good posts from Blazinghand, Naruto and other good terran players saying that the match up is not that imbalanced which are also being ignored and disregarded. Maybe it's not good to be sarcastic but when you have silver leaguers blaming their losses on balance and others claiming that protoss requires no micro at all you can see the thread is hardly useful anymore. Anyway I'm going to try to stop responding from now. My last word is that the match up is more balanced now at the pro level as evidenced by TLPD win rate graphs than it was last year and pro level balance by necessity trumps ladder balance. Look at PvT balance in BW and you'll understand (P>T at ICCup D level but practically balanced at pro level). You give one race a bunch of buffs so ladder players can have an easier time and you're going to ruin the pro scene. Nobody is saying the matchup is imbalaced in pro level, because that's not what we are discussing here in the first place. Maybe Naruto is talking about his level of play (GM Level I guess). He sure isn't talking about master level or below. Then you bring the point that in BW P>T at ICCup D level. Well, it's true. But as you may know things get a lot more even in C level (what most would agree that are likely masters in SC2) and beyond. I guess your whole point here is: the hell with every terran below GM, right? "Just get to GM and you'll be fine". Also, I believe most terran players in this thread are in the plat-masters range. There are some silvers, but it's not the majority at all. You're just cherrypicking.
So, wait let me get this straight. There are minimal balance issues with TvP at the professional level, according to your post above. And you also accept that some match ups may be imbalanced at a specific skill level, as the BW reference says. But you then argue that the majority of terran players posting in this thread are having issues, so that must be why terrans are quitting.
I am confused as to what everyone is looking for? Do you want protoss to be nerfed or terran to be buffed, even though that might affect professional play? Or do you just want Protoss players to admit that their race is easy and terran is the hardest race in the game? Or to admit that protoss is imbalanced late game against terran? Do you want to discuss what terrans can do late game to deal with protoss?
What is it that mid-skill level terrans want?
|
Terran Player here!
I think that people use to change race because they can't overcome their weaknesse in some matchups, and so many people started as terran player because they played the single player, thatk kind of thing.
Terran is not easy as most people think that it is, not saying that is the hardest either.
Being bm'ed every game because I play Terran is really funny for me, that shows that the other player was outplayed.
|
With equal mechanics, terran is worse than the other races. It's that simple.
A move vs a move terran army evaporates. So obviously no one plat level or below is going to want to play terran.
Terran also receives nerf after nerf, and is still made fun of and called op. That's going to discourage people too.
Also Terran can't sit in their base until 200/200 like the other races because their upgrades won't be as good (as toss), and they have no viable T3 tech vs zerg/toss.
Pushing out vs zerg is mechanically demanding. If you don't send marines in every direction, or look away for 1 second and a zerg a moves you and surrounds you die. Getting a good siege tank spread while splitting your marines in 2 seconds is very mechanically demanding.
toss aoe is insane. Pro players like Puma make it seem easy because they land perfect snipes, emps, and have perfect army control. The fact is 2 storms (or fungals) can kill your entire army. Toss and zerg do not have to worry about this. Zerg chooses every engagement because he is so fast. Toss units are so beefy and terran has such little aoe that they don't care.
|
On March 21 2012 04:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 03:10 petro1987 wrote:On March 21 2012 02:52 tomatriedes wrote:On March 20 2012 15:15 SupLilSon wrote:On March 20 2012 14:51 tomatriedes wrote:On March 20 2012 12:20 drop271 wrote:
I'm a former diamond terran, and have switched to protoss - mostly to try and learn TvP from the other side. I'll go back to Terran eventually of course.
My insight has been that PvP seems much more stable than TvT - imo there are fewer 'oh wtf how can I scout that coming' moments. You still lose 50% of the time I'm sure, but at least you know why and how to correct it. So, from my perspective, PvP seems less frustrating and bewildering than TvT can be.
PvT seems just as hard to play as TvP. Its a great matchup with both sides needing to respond and scout. But it seems a bit less taxing mentally as Toss since the Terrans seem to be in a very stable metagame - they all seem to 1rax expo into FE (with or w/o gas). Occassionally you get a 1/1/1 but you spot that a mile off. In TvP there are (it seems) more openers to accomodate, and you have to cede a good deal of early map control if you FE.
And PvZ is just fun. No banelings to worry about (yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay).
So tl:dr, from my perspective as someone who has switched from T to P, P less frustrating to play at diamond level. I'm NOT saying anything about balance. I'm just saying that the mistakes and changes are a bit clearer than 'fucking reapers' 'fucking banelings' 'fucking dts' 'fucking psi storm' that seems to precede the many Terran ragequits. As a protoss, fewer of my matches seem like a massive armwrestle. But for Terran - TvT, TvP and TvZ can all go late game and be stressful.
But..... this is also why I look forward to going back to Terran. All the matchups are epic (if taxing) encounters How dare you say that!? Don't you know that paying terran takes 1000 times more skill than other races? Don't you know that the only thing holding back every terran whiner in this thread from being in the GSL is the fact that they chose the race they did? Spare us the sarcasm, god knows there's been enough of it over the past 80+ pages. People should pay more attention to quality posts like Yosho's. He's a top master RANDOM player, citing many of the same problems in TvP that the rest of us "biased Terran players" have been trying to make clear. BeastyQT even lent his professional opinion on the matter and people simply choose to ignore it. The only reason this thread has gone to crap is because everyone is just cherry picking the worst posts and choosing them to highlight why the other side is wrong. Instead of looking at the quality posts. And there's been good posts from Blazinghand, Naruto and other good terran players saying that the match up is not that imbalanced which are also being ignored and disregarded. Maybe it's not good to be sarcastic but when you have silver leaguers blaming their losses on balance and others claiming that protoss requires no micro at all you can see the thread is hardly useful anymore. Anyway I'm going to try to stop responding from now. My last word is that the match up is more balanced now at the pro level as evidenced by TLPD win rate graphs than it was last year and pro level balance by necessity trumps ladder balance. Look at PvT balance in BW and you'll understand (P>T at ICCup D level but practically balanced at pro level). You give one race a bunch of buffs so ladder players can have an easier time and you're going to ruin the pro scene. Nobody is saying the matchup is imbalaced in pro level, because that's not what we are discussing here in the first place. Maybe Naruto is talking about his level of play (GM Level I guess). He sure isn't talking about master level or below. Then you bring the point that in BW P>T at ICCup D level. Well, it's true. But as you may know things get a lot more even in C level (what most would agree that are likely masters in SC2) and beyond. I guess your whole point here is: the hell with every terran below GM, right? "Just get to GM and you'll be fine". Also, I believe most terran players in this thread are in the plat-masters range. There are some silvers, but it's not the majority at all. You're just cherrypicking. So, wait let me get this straight. There are minimal balance issues with TvP at the professional level, according to your post above. And you also accept that some match ups may be imbalanced at a specific skill level, as the BW reference says. But you then argue that the majority of terran players posting in this thread are having issues, so that must be why terrans are quitting. I am confused as to what everyone is looking for? Do you want protoss to be nerfed or terran to be buffed, even though that might affect professional play? Or do you just want Protoss players to admit that their race is easy and terran is the hardest race in the game? Or to admit that protoss is imbalanced late game against terran? Do you want to discuss what terrans can do late game to deal with protoss? What is it that mid-skill level terrans want?
I am confused to how you can be confused about it, since you described it exactly. Terran is fine at pro level (well as far as I know, not a pro, so will not claim I know how balance is there exactly), but especially weak against protoss late game for 'normal' skill levels.
Then honestly, I really am not that bothered by it anymore. I used to be a bit, but then I realised I can just all-in/cheeze/timing push every protoss opponent before he gets AOE weapons. Works fine and makes them rage that terran is OP, I know it is bad, but I think it is kinda funny. However what I think the majority wants, and tbh what I also think would be nice, is terran boosted for late game against protos, without boosting it (too much) for pros.
And of course, boosting terran for 'normal' players without affecting pros too much isnt easy, but it definately also isnt impossible. Or plan B, nerf protoss late game, but tbh I dont know how they are doing against zerg in late game. How to do it? Not a clue :D
|
On March 21 2012 05:17 xrapture wrote:
With equal mechanics, terran is worse than the other races. It's that simple.
A move vs a move terran army evaporates. So obviously no one plat level or below is going to want to play terran.
Terran also receives nerf after nerf, and is still made fun of and called op. That's going to discourage people too.
Also Terran can't sit in their base until 200/200 like the other races because their upgrades won't be as good (as toss), and they have no viable T3 tech vs zerg/toss.
Pushing out vs zerg is mechanically demanding. If you don't send marines in every direction, or look away for 1 second and a zerg a moves you and surrounds you die. Getting a good siege tank spread while splitting your marines in 2 seconds is very mechanically demanding.
toss aoe is insane. Pro players like Puma make it seem easy because they land perfect snipes, emps, and have perfect army control. The fact is 2 storms (or fungals) can kill your entire army. Toss and zerg do not have to worry about this. Zerg chooses every engagement because he is so fast. Toss units are so beefy and terran has such little aoe that they don't care.
Look at it from the protoss point of view. We know that if storms are not avoided terran loses, but on the other hand for the first 15 minutes of the game protoss can lose by misplacing a forcefield or by not splitting his army correctly for drop defense. The game is extremely unforgiving for all races in all matchups.
|
On March 21 2012 05:17 xrapture wrote:
With equal mechanics, terran is worse than the other races. It's that simple.
A move vs a move terran army evaporates. So obviously no one plat level or below is going to want to play terran.
Terran also receives nerf after nerf, and is still made fun of and called op. That's going to discourage people too.
Also Terran can't sit in their base until 200/200 like the other races because their upgrades won't be as good (as toss), and they have no viable T3 tech vs zerg/toss.
Pushing out vs zerg is mechanically demanding. If you don't send marines in every direction, or look away for 1 second and a zerg a moves you and surrounds you die. Getting a good siege tank spread while splitting your marines in 2 seconds is very mechanically demanding.
toss aoe is insane. Pro players like Puma make it seem easy because they land perfect snipes, emps, and have perfect army control. The fact is 2 storms (or fungals) can kill your entire army. Toss and zerg do not have to worry about this. Zerg chooses every engagement because he is so fast. Toss units are so beefy and terran has such little aoe that they don't care.
With an attitude like that this thread will not go anywhere useful. Terran is not worse than the other races with equal mechanics. It's not that simple.
You can make this argument for ever single race. I think we should try to be objective and get past blaming balance for the mistakes we make.
|
hzflank, that's exactly why the root of the problems lie with the bad design of the races, specifically toss. Forcefield makes early units to be completely underpowered, and warpgate makes moot defender's advanatage, specially at 200/200 5 bases play.
This game was designed around steppes of war and slags pit. 1/2 base versus 1/2 base. On those maps there was no late game.
|
Race bias is killing any sort of arguments.
|
Warpgate actually does far more than remove defenders advantage. Warpgate always allows you to turn minerals into damage faster than regular production, even when on the defensive yourself. Warpgate also completely changes the way protoss macros because you can cut things to start gateways 75 seconds before standard timings hit and then get a sudden swell of units to deal with that timing. In late game warpgate allows you to punish a victorious terran army that lost all of its medivacs and too many marines as you just cant deal with big zealot warpins with too few medivacs.
If I were on the balance team at blizzard I would punch whoever though of warpgate :p
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
