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On March 21 2012 11:21 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:19 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 11:13 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 21 2012 11:12 ZenithM wrote:
There's still something I don't understand.
Everyone on ladder has 50% winrate, except top GM, and the pit of hell of bottom bronze. That includes Terran players.
On this thread, and many others, Terrans ALWAYS claim having less than 40% winrate in TvP. So one of two things (or the two at the same time of course): either they're fucking good at TvZ (if so we have to ask if TvZ is not too T favored), or they all have ridiculously high TvT winrate, which is absurd.
My guess is that people on TL don't represent the major part of the SC2 players, they represent those who invest more and try to improve earnestly and shit and maybe go the late game more often than not. So the Terran part of TL will indeed feel a little desperate against the other two races. Blizzard didn't say anything on TvP (yet) winrates on ladder, which means the rest of the Terrans are fine in TvP, probably one basing every single game (there are many notorious ladder players that are known to only 1 base, Terran is the only race which allows such a success with consistent one basing, Protoss at least has to make it a bit unpredictable)
There will always be a problem when Terran can pick up so many easy wins early game, this will block Blizzard to act and try to fix their weak lategame.
When I played Protoss on ladder, Terran was by far the cheesiest race. God those guys like their all ins, and I can't blame them, it's always fun proxying some shit on the map, pulling SCVs or attacking with every Terran unit on 1 base :D 50% winrate is no result of race balance, but of the system. Even if you are bad and nearly lose every TvP against players that are equally good you will eventually win as soon as the system places you against an inferior player. Lol, obviously, that's my point. Regardless, it's just not possible for every Terran to have a distribution of winrates like (30% TvP, 70% TvZ, 50% TvT) without Blizzard noticing it strongly. Your MMR is global and not per matchup, so it's perfectly possible for someone to have a bad matchup and good matchups to catch up in overall winrate. What I'm saying is that it's not possible for EVERYONE to have the same weak matchup without Blizzard fixing it immediately. Either they're about to act, or there is a small part of the ladder pool that still owns at TvP to compensate for those who do bad at it. Well its just not that easy. How is Blizzard going to buff the lower-level players while not making it GomTvT again? Its just very tricky. I don't think the match up is broken, I just think its very hard if you are not mechanically clean.
The issue is compounded by the fact that it is in the late game. Not every game we play gets to that stage of the game and PvT is a pretty fast and brutal match up at that point. Because of that, we do not have a lot of experience our decisions can be flawed or just plan wrong. Players attack when they should be building or bankings. Defend when they should be trading armies.
This for all races and all match ups. The longer a game goes, the closer we get to the point where we have no idea what the right decision is. And with PvT, you likely only get to make one or two mistakes before the other side rolls you.
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On March 21 2012 11:08 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:08 ticklishmusic wrote:
So from the flip side, I don't understand is why people complain Protoss is OP.
Because they lack courage.
Zealot so manly.
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On March 21 2012 11:31 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:08 Blasterion wrote:On March 21 2012 11:08 ticklishmusic wrote:
So from the flip side, I don't understand is why people complain Protoss is OP.
Because they lack courage. Zealot so manly.
WE CANNOT HOLD , nah protoss not manly, a-move race lack courage, Real men play Terran.
User was warned for this post
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On March 21 2012 11:26 Type|NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:25 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 11:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 21 2012 11:19 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 11:13 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 21 2012 11:12 ZenithM wrote:
There's still something I don't understand.
Everyone on ladder has 50% winrate, except top GM, and the pit of hell of bottom bronze. That includes Terran players.
On this thread, and many others, Terrans ALWAYS claim having less than 40% winrate in TvP. So one of two things (or the two at the same time of course): either they're fucking good at TvZ (if so we have to ask if TvZ is not too T favored), or they all have ridiculously high TvT winrate, which is absurd.
My guess is that people on TL don't represent the major part of the SC2 players, they represent those who invest more and try to improve earnestly and shit and maybe go the late game more often than not. So the Terran part of TL will indeed feel a little desperate against the other two races. Blizzard didn't say anything on TvP (yet) winrates on ladder, which means the rest of the Terrans are fine in TvP, probably one basing every single game (there are many notorious ladder players that are known to only 1 base, Terran is the only race which allows such a success with consistent one basing, Protoss at least has to make it a bit unpredictable)
There will always be a problem when Terran can pick up so many easy wins early game, this will block Blizzard to act and try to fix their weak lategame.
When I played Protoss on ladder, Terran was by far the cheesiest race. God those guys like their all ins, and I can't blame them, it's always fun proxying some shit on the map, pulling SCVs or attacking with every Terran unit on 1 base :D 50% winrate is no result of race balance, but of the system. Even if you are bad and nearly lose every TvP against players that are equally good you will eventually win as soon as the system places you against an inferior player. Lol, obviously, that's my point. Regardless, it's just not possible for every Terran to have a distribution of winrates like (30% TvP, 70% TvZ, 50% TvT) without Blizzard noticing it strongly. Your MMR is global and not per matchup, so it's perfectly possible for someone to have a bad matchup and good matchups to catch up in overall winrate. What I'm saying is that it's not possible for EVERYONE to have the same weak matchup without Blizzard fixing it immediately. Either they're about to act, or there is a small part of the ladder pool that still owns at TvP to compensate for those who do bad at it. Well its just not that easy. How is Blizzard going to buff the lower-level players while not making it GomTvT again? Its just very tricky. I don't think the match up is broken, I just think its very hard if you are not mechanically clean. They actually will be forced to do something if every T below high masters really has a 30% winrate TvP. It's just not acceptable for a game to have that state of balance on its ladder, regardless of how pros do. What I'm guessing is that it's not true at all, and TvP has not that bad of a winrate on ladder. If the whole ladder would have 30% Terran vs Protoss winrate, Blizzard would step in and do something. Thats absolutely correct. That doesn't make it right in my opinion. Balance should always happen at the highest level of play.
Oh yeah, I definitely agree, I don't care about balance at the lower levels. I just thought Blizzard would probably prevent too high of a discrepancy by all means.
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On March 21 2012 11:32 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:31 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 21 2012 11:08 Blasterion wrote:On March 21 2012 11:08 ticklishmusic wrote:
So from the flip side, I don't understand is why people complain Protoss is OP.
Because they lack courage. Zealot so manly. , nah protoss not manly, a-move race lack courage, Real men play Terran.
This may be the new, best part of this thread. Clearly terrans are more manly. They studder-step away from the zealot like dancing Russian-Bears. Bears of Courage!!!!
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On March 21 2012 11:32 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:31 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 21 2012 11:08 Blasterion wrote:On March 21 2012 11:08 ticklishmusic wrote:
So from the flip side, I don't understand is why people complain Protoss is OP.
Because they lack courage. Zealot so manly. , nah protoss not manly, a-move race lack courage, Real men play Terran.
^^Xenophobic humanocentrist conservative of the 25th century
I like to think of Terrans running away from zealots more as them trying to put other Terrans between themselves and psyblades.
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On March 21 2012 11:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:32 Blasterion wrote:On March 21 2012 11:31 ticklishmusic wrote:On March 21 2012 11:08 Blasterion wrote:On March 21 2012 11:08 ticklishmusic wrote:
So from the flip side, I don't understand is why people complain Protoss is OP.
Because they lack courage. Zealot so manly. WE CANNOT HOLD , nah protoss not manly, a-move race lack courage, Real men play Terran. This may be the new, best part of this thread. Clearly terrans are more manly. They studder-step away from the zealot like dancing Russian-Bears. Bears of Courage!!!!
Dancing in Battle is considered manly Thank You.
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On March 21 2012 11:29 Twistacles wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:12 ZenithM wrote:
There's still something I don't understand.
Everyone on ladder has 50% winrate, except top GM, and the pit of hell of bottom bronze. That includes Terran players.
On this thread, and many others, Terrans ALWAYS claim having less than 40% winrate in TvP. So one of two things (or the two at the same time of course): either they're fucking good at TvZ (if so we have to ask if TvZ is not too T favored), or they all have ridiculously high TvT winrate, which is absurd.
My guess is that people on TL don't represent the major part of the SC2 players, they represent those who invest more and try to improve earnestly and shit and maybe go the late game more often than not. So the Terran part of TL will indeed feel a little desperate against the other two races. Blizzard didn't say anything on TvP (yet) winrates on ladder, which means the rest of the Terrans are fine in TvP, probably one basing every single game (there are many notorious ladder players that are known to only 1 base, Terran is the only race which allows such a success with consistent one basing, Protoss at least has to make it a bit unpredictable)
There will always be a problem when Terran can pick up so many easy wins early game, this will block Blizzard to act and try to fix their weak lategame.
When I played Protoss on ladder, Terran was by far the cheesiest race. God those guys like their all ins, and I can't blame them, it's always fun proxying some shit on the map, pulling SCVs or attacking with every Terran unit on 1 base :D It's pretty simple. TvT and TvZ are actually balanced, but since you lose to protoss at about your mmr, if you face enough in a row, you tank down and start facing worse Ts/Zs that you absolutely roflstomp. Then face a protoss and lose. I can beat top 25 Masters T/Z but I can lose to Diamond P. this is reflected in most of my T friends, where one is high masters and consistently beats GM T/Z but loses to top25~ P
Yeah, don't worry, I get that perfectly. But not EVERY Terran can have the same distribution (which is what you say, and what I see everywhere), that's my point. Blizzard would notice it instantly with their internal numbers, and fix it even faster (with some ridiculous balance changes that would probably fuck up GSL :D)
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I wouldn't expect any buffs to Terran any time soon, as of now there are 10 Protoss, 17 Terran and 7 Zerg in Code S. To help fix this Terran Ghost got nerfed not that long ago. Truth of the matter is Terran is still pretty much the "Strongest" race. There are no Terran professionals that put their hands up and say this game is broken Terran can't win cause it simply isn't true and major tournament results show this. Ironically Terran might receive more nerfs in the not too distant future because the Marine and the Mule are still slightly overpowered. It sucks that you guys have a 40% winrate at lower levels but its impossible to buff terran to the point where its fair for lower levels cause it will just ruin every Professional who didn't pick terrans career and the game fails as Esport cause no one wants to watch GomTvTvT.
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On March 21 2012 11:38 VTPerfect wrote:
I wouldn't expect any buffs to Terran any time soon, as of now there are 10 Protoss, 17 Terran and 7 Zerg in Code S. To help fix this Terran Ghost got nerfed not that long ago. Truth of the matter is Terran is still pretty much the "Strongest" race. There are no Terran professionals that put their hands up and say this game is broken Terran can't win cause it simply isn't true and major tournament results show this. Ironically Terran might receive more nerfs in the not too distant future because the Marine and the Mule are still slightly overpowered. It sucks that you guys have a 40% winrate at lower levels but its impossible to buff terran to the point where its fair for lower levels cause it will just ruin every Professional who didn't pick terrans career and the game fails as Esport cause no one wants to watch GomTvTvT.
Sounds like the other professionals are just not very courageous, Understandable, after all they don't play terran.
User was warned for this post
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On March 21 2012 11:40 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:38 VTPerfect wrote:
I wouldn't expect any buffs to Terran any time soon, as of now there are 10 Protoss, 17 Terran and 7 Zerg in Code S. To help fix this Terran Ghost got nerfed not that long ago. Truth of the matter is Terran is still pretty much the "Strongest" race. There are no Terran professionals that put their hands up and say this game is broken Terran can't win cause it simply isn't true and major tournament results show this. Ironically Terran might receive more nerfs in the not too distant future because the Marine and the Mule are still slightly overpowered. It sucks that you guys have a 40% winrate at lower levels but its impossible to buff terran to the point where its fair for lower levels cause it will just ruin every Professional who didn't pick terrans career and the game fails as Esport cause no one wants to watch GomTvTvT.
Sounds like the other professionals are just not very courageous, Understandable, after all they don't play terran.
They are also not Russian Bears, who have natural courage and dancing skill. They should study bear to find courage. Then use courage for glory!!!!!
User was warned for this post
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On March 21 2012 11:50 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:40 Blasterion wrote:On March 21 2012 11:38 VTPerfect wrote:
I wouldn't expect any buffs to Terran any time soon, as of now there are 10 Protoss, 17 Terran and 7 Zerg in Code S. To help fix this Terran Ghost got nerfed not that long ago. Truth of the matter is Terran is still pretty much the "Strongest" race. There are no Terran professionals that put their hands up and say this game is broken Terran can't win cause it simply isn't true and major tournament results show this. Ironically Terran might receive more nerfs in the not too distant future because the Marine and the Mule are still slightly overpowered. It sucks that you guys have a 40% winrate at lower levels but its impossible to buff terran to the point where its fair for lower levels cause it will just ruin every Professional who didn't pick terrans career and the game fails as Esport cause no one wants to watch GomTvTvT.
Sounds like the other professionals are just not very courageous, Understandable, after all they don't play terran. They are also not Russian Bears, who have natural courage and dancing skill. They should study bear to find courage. Then use courage for glory!!!!!
Or just drink Pocari Sweat.
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On March 21 2012 11:25 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 21 2012 11:19 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 11:13 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 21 2012 11:12 ZenithM wrote:
There's still something I don't understand.
Everyone on ladder has 50% winrate, except top GM, and the pit of hell of bottom bronze. That includes Terran players.
On this thread, and many others, Terrans ALWAYS claim having less than 40% winrate in TvP. So one of two things (or the two at the same time of course): either they're fucking good at TvZ (if so we have to ask if TvZ is not too T favored), or they all have ridiculously high TvT winrate, which is absurd.
My guess is that people on TL don't represent the major part of the SC2 players, they represent those who invest more and try to improve earnestly and shit and maybe go the late game more often than not. So the Terran part of TL will indeed feel a little desperate against the other two races. Blizzard didn't say anything on TvP (yet) winrates on ladder, which means the rest of the Terrans are fine in TvP, probably one basing every single game (there are many notorious ladder players that are known to only 1 base, Terran is the only race which allows such a success with consistent one basing, Protoss at least has to make it a bit unpredictable)
There will always be a problem when Terran can pick up so many easy wins early game, this will block Blizzard to act and try to fix their weak lategame.
When I played Protoss on ladder, Terran was by far the cheesiest race. God those guys like their all ins, and I can't blame them, it's always fun proxying some shit on the map, pulling SCVs or attacking with every Terran unit on 1 base :D 50% winrate is no result of race balance, but of the system. Even if you are bad and nearly lose every TvP against players that are equally good you will eventually win as soon as the system places you against an inferior player. Lol, obviously, that's my point. Regardless, it's just not possible for every Terran to have a distribution of winrates like (30% TvP, 70% TvZ, 50% TvT) without Blizzard noticing it strongly. Your MMR is global and not per matchup, so it's perfectly possible for someone to have a bad matchup and good matchups to catch up in overall winrate. What I'm saying is that it's not possible for EVERYONE to have the same weak matchup without Blizzard fixing it immediately. Either they're about to act, or there is a small part of the ladder pool that still owns at TvP to compensate for those who do bad at it. Well its just not that easy. How is Blizzard going to buff the lower-level players while not making it GomTvT again? Its just very tricky. I don't think the match up is broken, I just think its very hard if you are not mechanically clean. They actually will be forced to do something if every T below high masters really has a 30% winrate TvP. It's just not acceptable for a game to have that state of balance on its ladder, regardless of how pros do. What I'm guessing is that it's not true at all, and TvP has not that bad of a winrate on ladder.
Hang on, this means that zerg has a 40% or lower winrate vs terran, otherwise the terrans would just be lower ladder. That's how MMR works right?
So the question is, where it the "Where are all the zergs?" thread? 
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On March 21 2012 11:52 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:25 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 11:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 21 2012 11:19 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 11:13 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 21 2012 11:12 ZenithM wrote:
There's still something I don't understand.
Everyone on ladder has 50% winrate, except top GM, and the pit of hell of bottom bronze. That includes Terran players.
On this thread, and many others, Terrans ALWAYS claim having less than 40% winrate in TvP. So one of two things (or the two at the same time of course): either they're fucking good at TvZ (if so we have to ask if TvZ is not too T favored), or they all have ridiculously high TvT winrate, which is absurd.
My guess is that people on TL don't represent the major part of the SC2 players, they represent those who invest more and try to improve earnestly and shit and maybe go the late game more often than not. So the Terran part of TL will indeed feel a little desperate against the other two races. Blizzard didn't say anything on TvP (yet) winrates on ladder, which means the rest of the Terrans are fine in TvP, probably one basing every single game (there are many notorious ladder players that are known to only 1 base, Terran is the only race which allows such a success with consistent one basing, Protoss at least has to make it a bit unpredictable)
There will always be a problem when Terran can pick up so many easy wins early game, this will block Blizzard to act and try to fix their weak lategame.
When I played Protoss on ladder, Terran was by far the cheesiest race. God those guys like their all ins, and I can't blame them, it's always fun proxying some shit on the map, pulling SCVs or attacking with every Terran unit on 1 base :D 50% winrate is no result of race balance, but of the system. Even if you are bad and nearly lose every TvP against players that are equally good you will eventually win as soon as the system places you against an inferior player. Lol, obviously, that's my point. Regardless, it's just not possible for every Terran to have a distribution of winrates like (30% TvP, 70% TvZ, 50% TvT) without Blizzard noticing it strongly. Your MMR is global and not per matchup, so it's perfectly possible for someone to have a bad matchup and good matchups to catch up in overall winrate. What I'm saying is that it's not possible for EVERYONE to have the same weak matchup without Blizzard fixing it immediately. Either they're about to act, or there is a small part of the ladder pool that still owns at TvP to compensate for those who do bad at it. Well its just not that easy. How is Blizzard going to buff the lower-level players while not making it GomTvT again? Its just very tricky. I don't think the match up is broken, I just think its very hard if you are not mechanically clean. They actually will be forced to do something if every T below high masters really has a 30% winrate TvP. It's just not acceptable for a game to have that state of balance on its ladder, regardless of how pros do. What I'm guessing is that it's not true at all, and TvP has not that bad of a winrate on ladder. Hang on, this means that zerg has a 40% or lower winrate vs terran, otherwise the terrans would just be lower ladder. That's how MMR works right? So the question is, where it the "Where are all the zergs?" thread?
All the Zergs were obliterated by courageous Terrans and ceased to exist.
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On March 21 2012 11:37 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:29 Twistacles wrote:On March 21 2012 11:12 ZenithM wrote:
There's still something I don't understand.
Everyone on ladder has 50% winrate, except top GM, and the pit of hell of bottom bronze. That includes Terran players.
On this thread, and many others, Terrans ALWAYS claim having less than 40% winrate in TvP. So one of two things (or the two at the same time of course): either they're fucking good at TvZ (if so we have to ask if TvZ is not too T favored), or they all have ridiculously high TvT winrate, which is absurd.
My guess is that people on TL don't represent the major part of the SC2 players, they represent those who invest more and try to improve earnestly and shit and maybe go the late game more often than not. So the Terran part of TL will indeed feel a little desperate against the other two races. Blizzard didn't say anything on TvP (yet) winrates on ladder, which means the rest of the Terrans are fine in TvP, probably one basing every single game (there are many notorious ladder players that are known to only 1 base, Terran is the only race which allows such a success with consistent one basing, Protoss at least has to make it a bit unpredictable)
There will always be a problem when Terran can pick up so many easy wins early game, this will block Blizzard to act and try to fix their weak lategame.
When I played Protoss on ladder, Terran was by far the cheesiest race. God those guys like their all ins, and I can't blame them, it's always fun proxying some shit on the map, pulling SCVs or attacking with every Terran unit on 1 base :D It's pretty simple. TvT and TvZ are actually balanced, but since you lose to protoss at about your mmr, if you face enough in a row, you tank down and start facing worse Ts/Zs that you absolutely roflstomp. Then face a protoss and lose. I can beat top 25 Masters T/Z but I can lose to Diamond P. this is reflected in most of my T friends, where one is high masters and consistently beats GM T/Z but loses to top25~ P Yeah, don't worry, I get that perfectly. But not EVERY Terran can have the same distribution (which is what you say, and what I see everywhere), that's my point. Blizzard would notice it instantly with their internal numbers, and fix it even faster (with some ridiculous balance changes that would probably fuck up GSL :D)
They don't, I'm high Diamond/Low master and TvP is my best matchup, If I move up it will probably change, as I have friends who are far better than me who struggle a massive amount in the matchup, but as of right now I do pretty well at it.
Personally I find TvZ to be the hardest of all
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On March 21 2012 12:00 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:37 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 11:29 Twistacles wrote:On March 21 2012 11:12 ZenithM wrote:
There's still something I don't understand.
Everyone on ladder has 50% winrate, except top GM, and the pit of hell of bottom bronze. That includes Terran players.
On this thread, and many others, Terrans ALWAYS claim having less than 40% winrate in TvP. So one of two things (or the two at the same time of course): either they're fucking good at TvZ (if so we have to ask if TvZ is not too T favored), or they all have ridiculously high TvT winrate, which is absurd.
My guess is that people on TL don't represent the major part of the SC2 players, they represent those who invest more and try to improve earnestly and shit and maybe go the late game more often than not. So the Terran part of TL will indeed feel a little desperate against the other two races. Blizzard didn't say anything on TvP (yet) winrates on ladder, which means the rest of the Terrans are fine in TvP, probably one basing every single game (there are many notorious ladder players that are known to only 1 base, Terran is the only race which allows such a success with consistent one basing, Protoss at least has to make it a bit unpredictable)
There will always be a problem when Terran can pick up so many easy wins early game, this will block Blizzard to act and try to fix their weak lategame.
When I played Protoss on ladder, Terran was by far the cheesiest race. God those guys like their all ins, and I can't blame them, it's always fun proxying some shit on the map, pulling SCVs or attacking with every Terran unit on 1 base :D It's pretty simple. TvT and TvZ are actually balanced, but since you lose to protoss at about your mmr, if you face enough in a row, you tank down and start facing worse Ts/Zs that you absolutely roflstomp. Then face a protoss and lose. I can beat top 25 Masters T/Z but I can lose to Diamond P. this is reflected in most of my T friends, where one is high masters and consistently beats GM T/Z but loses to top25~ P Yeah, don't worry, I get that perfectly. But not EVERY Terran can have the same distribution (which is what you say, and what I see everywhere), that's my point. Blizzard would notice it instantly with their internal numbers, and fix it even faster (with some ridiculous balance changes that would probably fuck up GSL :D) They don't, I'm high Diamond/Low master and TvP is my best matchup, If I move up it will probably change, as I have friends who are far better than me who struggle a massive amount in the matchup, but as of right now I do pretty well at it. Personally I find TvZ to be the hardest of all
We have found the Dancing-Bear-Terran!!!!! He fearlessly faces the protoss cowards!!!!!
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On March 21 2012 12:00 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:37 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 11:29 Twistacles wrote:On March 21 2012 11:12 ZenithM wrote:
There's still something I don't understand.
Everyone on ladder has 50% winrate, except top GM, and the pit of hell of bottom bronze. That includes Terran players.
On this thread, and many others, Terrans ALWAYS claim having less than 40% winrate in TvP. So one of two things (or the two at the same time of course): either they're fucking good at TvZ (if so we have to ask if TvZ is not too T favored), or they all have ridiculously high TvT winrate, which is absurd.
My guess is that people on TL don't represent the major part of the SC2 players, they represent those who invest more and try to improve earnestly and shit and maybe go the late game more often than not. So the Terran part of TL will indeed feel a little desperate against the other two races. Blizzard didn't say anything on TvP (yet) winrates on ladder, which means the rest of the Terrans are fine in TvP, probably one basing every single game (there are many notorious ladder players that are known to only 1 base, Terran is the only race which allows such a success with consistent one basing, Protoss at least has to make it a bit unpredictable)
There will always be a problem when Terran can pick up so many easy wins early game, this will block Blizzard to act and try to fix their weak lategame.
When I played Protoss on ladder, Terran was by far the cheesiest race. God those guys like their all ins, and I can't blame them, it's always fun proxying some shit on the map, pulling SCVs or attacking with every Terran unit on 1 base :D It's pretty simple. TvT and TvZ are actually balanced, but since you lose to protoss at about your mmr, if you face enough in a row, you tank down and start facing worse Ts/Zs that you absolutely roflstomp. Then face a protoss and lose. I can beat top 25 Masters T/Z but I can lose to Diamond P. this is reflected in most of my T friends, where one is high masters and consistently beats GM T/Z but loses to top25~ P Yeah, don't worry, I get that perfectly. But not EVERY Terran can have the same distribution (which is what you say, and what I see everywhere), that's my point. Blizzard would notice it instantly with their internal numbers, and fix it even faster (with some ridiculous balance changes that would probably fuck up GSL :D) They don't, I'm high Diamond/Low master and TvP is my best matchup, If I move up it will probably change, as I have friends who are far better than me who struggle a massive amount in the matchup, but as of right now I do pretty well at it. Personally I find TvZ to be the hardest of all
Get out of this thread!
You must not contradict the drama!!
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Zealots want give high five to mariners but mariners no like high five. They run away and shoot zealots
Manly race huh?
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On March 21 2012 11:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:21 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 21 2012 11:19 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 11:13 Type|NarutO wrote:On March 21 2012 11:12 ZenithM wrote:
There's still something I don't understand.
Everyone on ladder has 50% winrate, except top GM, and the pit of hell of bottom bronze. That includes Terran players.
On this thread, and many others, Terrans ALWAYS claim having less than 40% winrate in TvP. So one of two things (or the two at the same time of course): either they're fucking good at TvZ (if so we have to ask if TvZ is not too T favored), or they all have ridiculously high TvT winrate, which is absurd.
My guess is that people on TL don't represent the major part of the SC2 players, they represent those who invest more and try to improve earnestly and shit and maybe go the late game more often than not. So the Terran part of TL will indeed feel a little desperate against the other two races. Blizzard didn't say anything on TvP (yet) winrates on ladder, which means the rest of the Terrans are fine in TvP, probably one basing every single game (there are many notorious ladder players that are known to only 1 base, Terran is the only race which allows such a success with consistent one basing, Protoss at least has to make it a bit unpredictable)
There will always be a problem when Terran can pick up so many easy wins early game, this will block Blizzard to act and try to fix their weak lategame.
When I played Protoss on ladder, Terran was by far the cheesiest race. God those guys like their all ins, and I can't blame them, it's always fun proxying some shit on the map, pulling SCVs or attacking with every Terran unit on 1 base :D 50% winrate is no result of race balance, but of the system. Even if you are bad and nearly lose every TvP against players that are equally good you will eventually win as soon as the system places you against an inferior player. Lol, obviously, that's my point. Regardless, it's just not possible for every Terran to have a distribution of winrates like (30% TvP, 70% TvZ, 50% TvT) without Blizzard noticing it strongly. Your MMR is global and not per matchup, so it's perfectly possible for someone to have a bad matchup and good matchups to catch up in overall winrate. What I'm saying is that it's not possible for EVERYONE to have the same weak matchup without Blizzard fixing it immediately. Either they're about to act, or there is a small part of the ladder pool that still owns at TvP to compensate for those who do bad at it. Well its just not that easy. How is Blizzard going to buff the lower-level players while not making it GomTvT again? Its just very tricky. I don't think the match up is broken, I just think its very hard if you are not mechanically clean. The issue is compounded by the fact that it is in the late game. Not every game we play gets to that stage of the game and PvT is a pretty fast and brutal match up at that point. Because of that, we do not have a lot of experience our decisions can be flawed or just plan wrong. Players attack when they should be building or bankings. Defend when they should be trading armies. This for all races and all match ups. The longer a game goes, the closer we get to the point where we have no idea what the right decision is. And with PvT, you likely only get to make one or two mistakes before the other side rolls you.
Yet the fact of the matter is that your going to have to engage the 200/200 P deathball no matter what. No amount of drops, production buildings etc will save a T since the P will come and "kill you". If the outcome of that engagement is even or slightly better for the P, the T will lose from there onwards.
But I agree with respect to Z players and their decision making late game. Even though T might be sitting on 200/200, the army needs to be setup. Yet Z players dont realise this and always try to clash it head on (its hard for T to just come kill you since if the T army gets caught off guard, it would just flat out lose since it does not work like a deathball due to tanks).
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On March 21 2012 12:00 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2012 11:37 ZenithM wrote:On March 21 2012 11:29 Twistacles wrote:On March 21 2012 11:12 ZenithM wrote:
There's still something I don't understand.
Everyone on ladder has 50% winrate, except top GM, and the pit of hell of bottom bronze. That includes Terran players.
On this thread, and many others, Terrans ALWAYS claim having less than 40% winrate in TvP. So one of two things (or the two at the same time of course): either they're fucking good at TvZ (if so we have to ask if TvZ is not too T favored), or they all have ridiculously high TvT winrate, which is absurd.
My guess is that people on TL don't represent the major part of the SC2 players, they represent those who invest more and try to improve earnestly and shit and maybe go the late game more often than not. So the Terran part of TL will indeed feel a little desperate against the other two races. Blizzard didn't say anything on TvP (yet) winrates on ladder, which means the rest of the Terrans are fine in TvP, probably one basing every single game (there are many notorious ladder players that are known to only 1 base, Terran is the only race which allows such a success with consistent one basing, Protoss at least has to make it a bit unpredictable)
There will always be a problem when Terran can pick up so many easy wins early game, this will block Blizzard to act and try to fix their weak lategame.
When I played Protoss on ladder, Terran was by far the cheesiest race. God those guys like their all ins, and I can't blame them, it's always fun proxying some shit on the map, pulling SCVs or attacking with every Terran unit on 1 base :D It's pretty simple. TvT and TvZ are actually balanced, but since you lose to protoss at about your mmr, if you face enough in a row, you tank down and start facing worse Ts/Zs that you absolutely roflstomp. Then face a protoss and lose. I can beat top 25 Masters T/Z but I can lose to Diamond P. this is reflected in most of my T friends, where one is high masters and consistently beats GM T/Z but loses to top25~ P Yeah, don't worry, I get that perfectly. But not EVERY Terran can have the same distribution (which is what you say, and what I see everywhere), that's my point. Blizzard would notice it instantly with their internal numbers, and fix it even faster (with some ridiculous balance changes that would probably fuck up GSL :D) They don't, I'm high Diamond/Low master and TvP is my best matchup, If I move up it will probably change, as I have friends who are far better than me who struggle a massive amount in the matchup, but as of right now I do pretty well at it. Personally I find TvZ to be the hardest of all
Thank you for that :D
Terrans like you do exist, otherwise it just didn't make any sense.
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