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wajd
240 Posts
When you want to be serous with this game and it just isn't happening. Do you have to just suck it up and tell yourself to give up this dream, and stop playing? Accept the fact that this game is so easy for alot of people, but I'm not one of them. So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? | ||
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glyoArtOfWar
United States5 Posts
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Pantythief
Denmark657 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
zOula...
United States898 Posts
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SeraKuDA
Canada343 Posts
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Ftrunkz
Australia2474 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation This is actually pretty good advice. Skill cielings don't really exist unless you're doing everything in the game perfectly. Anything else is just a mental barrier that you get stuck in when you go a while with no obvious visable improvement in rank or whatever you're gauging yourself by. Your mechanics get better with every game you play, you can learn something from every loss you take (even if you've lost to the same thing a million times before, it's still another time you've got practiced against it and to improve on.) As someone who plays competitively, it's something that happens to everyone at certain points, you hit a point where it feels like you're just not progressing, but even if you don't realize it you are progressing as a player every single time you play a game, watch a stream, do pretty much anything related to starcraft. | ||
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LaxCraft
United States11 Posts
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13JackaL
United States577 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation I'm gonna use that line from now on, thank you! If you feel like you hit a plateau, the best way to continue may be to develope a new philosophy about your practice regimen. Trying new things can help you out a ton to find a groove and improve more. For example, Day9's previous newbie tuesday was about adjusting one mistake at a time while using a certain build in a certain match-up. Slow, steady step-by-step proceedures may just be what works best for you. A pretty large inhibitor is your mindset though. Just by thinking that there is a skill ceiling can hamper your improvement. | ||
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hiyo_bye
United States737 Posts
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Angelbelow
United States3728 Posts
Another reason is that I don't have time to play a ton of games AND watch sc2. I enjoy watching matches because you can kick back and relax while doing so. | ||
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BabyKnight
Denmark112 Posts
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feanor1
United States1899 Posts
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Utinni
Canada1196 Posts
If I gave up on everything I wasn't perfect at... I would be a very dull boy. Edit: As for your own skill ceiling, playing with a group of ppl that can observe your games and help you learn (learning together) is a good start. | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
Well okay there is a ceiling of the game, that is if you control every unit on the field alone at the same time and decide perfectly for every single one of them. | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation ...quoted! | ||
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Thor-axe the Impaler
United States331 Posts
Do you have limits? Are you really stuck where you are now forever? If so, then yes, give up now and sell your dreams and aspirations for average pay and lifestyle so that you can waste away that time wishing you had done otherwise. But do you really just want to be a victim of your own discouragement? | ||
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insanet
Peru439 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
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Northern_iight
Canada363 Posts
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dragoon
United States695 Posts
this applies to everything. | ||
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-Exalt-
United States972 Posts
It's why when you see a game with a masters player and a gold player, the gold player's APM at the END of the game is going to be less than 1/2 of that of the Masters player (the Masters player simply can do more things at once in the game). Mechanics are pretty underrated when it comes to the topic of "improving". You could have the in-game knowledge of Artosis, but if you can't multitask well enough to execute all of that knowledge, then suddenly all of that "studying" of the game instead of actually playing it seems kind of silly. Things that could improve your mechanics- -Turn off Enhanced Pointer Precision, this seriously made my mouse accuracy sky-rocket combined with practice. -Turn up your Scroll speed/ Mouse sensitivity (this is debatable, but IMO if you can still be accurate but move around faster, it's obv going to help multi-tasking.. same goes with in-game scroll speed.) -Hotkeys, get used to using more instead of just 1-4 or something (I use up to 8, as well as f1 through f4 for camera save locations. -"Think" about improving your APM / multitasking. I think a coach, maybe from OGS, said that the only way to improve APM is to actually think about doing it while playing. Play faster (if you watch huk stream, try to play like him.. very fast paced.) hope this helps :S | ||
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TCVeritas
United States15 Posts
But if you no longer enjoy the game then maybe is time to move on. I don't want to discourage you, but this is how I felt, that although I didn't try everything to improve (I only have ~450 ladder wins as reference), I didn't enjoy playing enough to try and get better and didn't feel like it'd be worth the time I put in, so now I've been playing other games and maybe I will change my mind in the future, but for now I don't see myself playing too much SC2. tl;dr You probably haven't reached your skill ceiling, and if you still like playing then keep playing and if not, maybe should consider other games. | ||
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Utinni
Canada1196 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:59 insanet wrote: geez, he is saying HIS skill ceiling, not sc2 skill ceiling. GEEZ, WRONG, he's talking about YOUR skill ceiling, as in the community. EDIT: He is asking a question to everyone | ||
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xrapture
United States1644 Posts
Increase your mouse sensitivity = become better. improve your hotkey setup = become better watch replays of your losses and identify mistakes = become better refine your build orders to 35 supply = become better and of course, play more = become better | ||
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Eatme
Switzerland3919 Posts
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Uncultured
United States1340 Posts
You can always get better, even when the progress is so small that you don't notice it. Plateaus happen in every skillful thing you try to advance, and working past them is the sign of the best players/athletes in the world. | ||
BLinD-RawR
ALLEYCAT BLUES50118 Posts
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dukem
Norway189 Posts
So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? There is no skill ceiling. Accept the fact that this game is so easy for alot of people, but I'm not one of them. You are wrong here too. It's "easier" for a lot of people, because they realize its their own play that is messed up, not making excuses. When you've tried everything to get better, meaning - watching your own replays, downloading replays, practicing every day, laddering, watching streams, watching live events, reading strategy threads, trying to seek coaching when you can't afford it, asking questions whenever you can... I mean everything. And none of it works. Try harder. | ||
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mynameisgreat11
599 Posts
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Boraz
United States361 Posts
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
I punch myself a little, and say " shut up brain and play better ". You can do better. Put that in your mind until you believe it like it's your birth date. That's pretty much the way Naniwa play the game btw. Just be hard on yourself because byou know you can do better. | ||
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Dbla08
United States211 Posts
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Rice
United States1332 Posts
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publicenemies
458 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation Poetic.... | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
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motioncity
United States37 Posts
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Pablols
Chile517 Posts
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Hulavuta
United States1252 Posts
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CCalms
United States341 Posts
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Deathmanbob
United States2356 Posts
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Kitetsu
73 Posts
Until you can consistently make workers and units from every production facility throughout the whole game (workers obviously have to stop around 60-80) and just keep your money low in general, you are not even close to your own skill ceiling. Obviously zerg functions a bit differently, but the zerg equivalent would be to not miss a single inject, make only units reactively (until optimum economy is reached), and maintain good overlord vision and creep spread. I think one of the easiest ways to get stuck is spend too much time over-analyzing every little thing. I made it to low Masters with basically 'pure spending' - very little frills, very little micro. After a long period of inactivity I am just now starting to incorporate more difficult micro and multitasking into my play - once your mechanics are... well, mechanical, all the extra little things become increasingly easier to learn and more effective. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On March 10 2012 13:39 CCalms wrote: If you really think you even have a skill ceiling, then you have some more psychological problems that you should confront for the greater well-being of your life, far beyond starcraft. This is hilarious, are you really saying that a person suggesting that AN INDIVIDUAL has a skill limit in a certain task is psychological problems? As a human collective given infinite time, hindsight (i.e. time travel), and resources we don't have a skill limit. But individuals absolutely do, if I asked you to lift 100 kg of weights with just your hand with out leverage could you do it? How about 1 tonne, or 10 tonnes, or 100 tonnes? And would it even be DESIRABLE to do so? Why would you do that yourself when you could invent a machine to do it? At a point it becomes either redundant / meaningless (i.e. a logical fallacy in that no one in their right mind would ever want to keep going) or you hit a physical limit with what you are given as an individual. Edit: HAVING a skill ceiling is different from REACHING your personal skill ceiling (or collective skill ceiling, which at least can be theorized to be infinite given aforementioned infinite resources) and knowing when you've reached it (which we can't without hindsight); I just find comments saying YOU, an INDIVIDUAL who is given limited resources and time, don't have a skill ceiling ridiculous. | ||
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Biggun69
187 Posts
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Tbones
United States7 Posts
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GertHeart
United States631 Posts
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Biggun69
187 Posts
On March 10 2012 13:49 Caihead wrote: This is hilarious, are you really saying that a person suggesting that AN INDIVIDUAL has a skill limit in a certain task is psychological problems? As a human collective given infinite time, hindsight (i.e. time travel), and resources we don't have a skill limit. But individuals absolutely do, if I asked you to lift 100 kg of weights with just your hand with out leverage could you do it? How about 1 tonne, or 10 tonnes, or 100 tonnes? And would it even be DESIRABLE to do so? Why would you do that yourself when you could invent a machine to do it? At a point it becomes either redundant / meaningless (i.e. a logical fallacy in that no one in their right mind would ever want to keep going) or you hit a physical limit with what you are given as an individual. Edit: HAVING a skill ceiling is different from REACHING your personal skill ceiling (or collective skill ceiling, which at least can be theorized to be infinite given aforementioned infinite resources) and knowing when you've reached it (which we can't without hindsight); I just find comments saying YOU, an INDIVIDUAL, don't have a skill ceiling ridiculous. This is not the case. In physical situations there is a limit of what a human being is actually capable of. In starcraft 2 there is no limit on any person unless they have a physical disability which stops them from being able to press buttons on their keyboard or click their mouse. Otherwise the sky is the limit on what you can acomplish. Like I stated in my post above, people get stuck because they dont know what they are doing wrong and how to improve it. There is no magical force holding them back or some kind of genetic disadvantage which doesnt allow them to excell at sc2. | ||
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Tachion
Canada8573 Posts
On March 10 2012 13:56 Biggun69 wrote: There is no such thing as reaching your skill ceiling. You are in plat so this means there are tons of things you can improve like you general macro and micro. Your problem is not that you have reached your skill cap, it's that you dont know how to improve yourself properly. You need to learn proper build orders that pro players do and try to improve your speed and mechanics. What if he only has 1 hour a day(or every few days) to play? There is absolutely a ceiling if you have limited time in which to practice. | ||
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wajd
240 Posts
On March 10 2012 14:02 Tachion wrote: What if he only has 1 hour a day(or every few days) to play? There is absolutely a ceiling if you have limited time in which to practice. I play at least one game a day. 20+ on the days which I am free, which is 2-3 times a week. If I'm not playing, I'm watching a stream/event. | ||
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Biggun69
187 Posts
On March 10 2012 14:02 Tachion wrote: What if he only has 1 hour a day(or every few days) to play? There is absolutely a ceiling if you have limited time in which to practice. I think the op is talking more about he has done everything he possibly can to improve and now feels that it is impossible to do any better. I don't think 1 hour a day is a skill ceiling, it just means that his rate of improvement will be very slow. You cant really improve that much from one hour a day i agree, but if he plays more than that he should be improving. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:45 wajd wrote: So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? Find the stair and walk up to the next floor?, you know, usually there's always a hole on the ceiling so that you can walk up there, providing you have a stair. | ||
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Chvol
United States200 Posts
Only use 1-2 strategies per match up. If you want to focus on improving, you need to be able to focus on specifics. If you're doing different things each game, you'll have a harder time noticing where your flaws are. | ||
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cDgKargo
Ireland21 Posts
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K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
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dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
But there is no such thing as a skill ceiling | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
Personally for me its about rank 10-20masters every season and I know I could still do better if I was willing to put in huge amounts of time, but thats just not worth it to me. So maybe its more of a game is still fun skill ceiling. Edit: I want to add that its not a absolute skill ceiling but a relative skill ceiling as of course you are still improving in ways but so is everyone else at your skill level. | ||
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TigerKarl
1757 Posts
The height of your skill ceiling is influenced by uncountable factors, the biggest is probably intelligence, or better the many aspects of intelligence. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
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Sea_Food
Finland1612 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation You have 4 posts and you already said something badass. | ||
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papaz
Sweden4149 Posts
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ReturnStroke
United States801 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:51 LaxCraft wrote: The ceiling doesn't exist yet. The game is still too new and the meta game is still developing. If you're talking about your limitations on the ladder regarding your bracket, all it takes is practice to get better and get out. If you're top masters to grandmasters, the ladder is probably of little significance. To get better at that point you need to hone your skills with equal or greater skilled opponents through custom games. There won't be a ceiling for for years until after the last expansion hits, and years after that. I think he means his own personal ceiling. If he meant the game's skill ceiling, he'd win Code S consistently. | ||
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Caihead
Canada8550 Posts
On March 10 2012 13:59 Biggun69 wrote: This is not the case. In physical situations there is a limit of what a human being is actually capable of. In starcraft 2 there is no limit on any person unless they have a physical disability which stops them from being able to press buttons on their keyboard or click their mouse. Otherwise the sky is the limit on what you can acomplish. Like I stated in my post above, people get stuck because they dont know what they are doing wrong and how to improve it. There is no magical force holding them back or some kind of genetic disadvantage which doesnt allow them to excell at sc2. You do realize that all human joints (in this case joints in your fingers) have a rotational speed / reflex speed limit right. There is literally a hard limit to APM / micro / macro and thus skill ceiling. I won't point out sight / processing in your brain because you hit that ALOT later. There are boundaries imposed by physics and biology, and like I said, motivation /lifestyle /finance and logical conclusions, if someone was able to devote this level of devotion to a game he would be insane, and any enterprise willing to aid such an effort where you are actually pushing physical / biological limits would much rather put it into something more profitable than a video game. | ||
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ReturnStroke
United States801 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:56 feanor1 wrote: You play the game for fun? IDK in his defense, I haven't really played video games "for fun" in a really long time. I pretty much just play any game to be better. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:49 Pantythief wrote: You play Skyrim for 5 minutes and realize how bad it is. Then you turn StarCraft 2 back on. Dude Skyrim is awesome. It's especially good for just mindless decompressing. Or you could try some LOL. SC2 is really stressful imo. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 10 2012 15:15 TigerKarl wrote: The height of your skill ceiling is influenced by uncountable factors, the biggest is probably intelligence, or better the many aspects of intelligence. Every time a thread about this issue comes up, someone comes along to say this, but it's not generally true. Many abilities that people describe as "intelligence" strongly reward a type of single-minded focus and concentration that specifically makes tasks like Starcraft, which instead reward constant prioritization and shifting of attention from thing to thing, difficult. Good analytical problem-solving skills are helpful in advancing one's Starcraft skill, but the analytical problem solving rarely happens *in a game,* where reaction time, long- and short-term memory, manual dexterity, properly-trained muscle memory, and good intuitive spatial reasoning are pretty much the whole game. I could introduce you to a long list of witheringly intelligent people from an analytical problem solving standpoint who have devoted hundreds or thousands of hours to Starcraft and have plateaued in platinum or below because they're just not that strong in one or more of those other areas. Edit: I believe that extremely focused practice might help these people get past their plateaus, but my point is that simply having good analytical problem solving skills is not really the key thing for them. I think the people who come along to assert that analytical problem solving is the key skill may be doing so because it's their own personal weakest area (relative to the others I've listed, not in an absolute sense) and they've had to develop it to advance. | ||
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catatoni
Finland23 Posts
You can do it  | ||
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Kira__
Sweden2672 Posts
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
On March 10 2012 14:02 Tachion wrote: What if he only has 1 hour a day(or every few days) to play? There is absolutely a ceiling if you have limited time in which to practice. I only played 1-5 games a day. Often 3-4 days with 0 games, some with 5 etc. I reached Masters... It's really not that hard. Fyi, watching streams is bad, it's good when you feel 'lost', but it won't actually improve your skill level. The more live events you watch, the more your actual skill degrades. | ||
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:49 Pantythief wrote: You play Skyrim for 5 minutes and realize how bad it is. Then you turn StarCraft 2 back on. The funny part is ... stopping to go play another game for a couple weeks isn't far from the truth for reinvigoration. But yeah, getting better after a point is damn painful. | ||
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sabas123
Netherlands3122 Posts
and keep in mind skill sealing is that you did it PERFECTLY, and that is almost imposible, espicaly in any multitasking focused strategy. so yust close youre browser and go train there is no "PERSONAL" skill sealing, if you yust practise enough | ||
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3371 Posts
Sit down in singleplayer and perfect your builds, then execute them as good as you can on ladder. | ||
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Xova
United States342 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation This is probably the best thing ive ever read when it comes to something like this. I personally dont believe in the "Skill Ceiling" if you push yourself to get better and really hunger for whatever it is you want, you will get it. It may take longer than most, but youll get it. | ||
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CrtBalorda
Slovenia704 Posts
Pretty sure there is something your just not doing right. | ||
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Siffer
United States467 Posts
Ask yourself questions, watch replays from opponents point of view. See if there is anything they are doing that is exploitable. And (imo)#1 most important thing you must do to progress in RTS is to discuss games with people! You can watch all the day9 dailies you want; however, it is a lot more beneficial(imo) to have a two way conversation about games. and most importantly, have fun! | ||
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DaemonX
545 Posts
My friend is a bit of a pessimist and he's always afraid of having his hit his 'skill ceiling'. He's a bit of a downer to have around tbh, whenever I have a losing session, he reassures me that I'm losing because I've hit mine. Though a better player than me, he's quit laddering, and I haven't. But I happen to think it's all bullshit. Natural reflexes play a much smaller part in SC2 than BW. I am with QXC - if you have hit a wall, it means your methods for improvement have hit a wall. They need to be worked on before you will get better. This is fairly logical: The methods for improvement valid at certain levels don't work on other levels: I mean it won't do IdrA any good to drill his mechanics. A week at a self-help and mental strength conference might. Meanwhile, all the positive thinking in the world won't help JohhnyScrub get out of Silver. Even if this is wrong, and I see no evidence that it is, I think it's still valid. It's one of the few valid applications of the Precautionary Principle (since it doesn't advocate action, but merely precludes negative decisions), ie: Even if you have hit a true skill wall that you will never really get over, believing this will make you feel pretty shitty about playing the game (like my friend, and you will quit like him). Believing you can get better one day, even if it happens to be totally untrue, makes you feel a lot better and have fun playing and even losing. So what's the harm in hoping? How many people play games and sports casually, like local football and or chess club, while believing they are actually not ever really going to get anything out of it or get any better because of it? Very few is the answer. That said, there's a lot of evidence for the no-skill-wall-below-grandmaster school of thought. If you are not master league, there's a way to improve from watching Day9, reading TL, signing up for coaching sites. www.hotkeyit.com were great for me. I don't have any personal affiliation to the site, I just found their service helped me break a wall. There are many like it. There are also tonnes of pro-coaches. And honestly, finding a practice partner is the best way to break walls. | ||
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Blezza
United Kingdom191 Posts
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DaemonX
545 Posts
On March 10 2012 17:41 Blezza wrote: I would try switching race to Zerg or Terran. You might lower your rank a bit but i imagine that in the long term it will be better for you. And I think this is exactly what NOT to do. This just means you lose 80% of the lessons you actually have learned, though you might not realise it. It also validates the notion that it's the game that is the issue, not your methods of approaching your play. I race switched in Season 2, from Zerg to Terran. I have regretted it many times. I eventually got back to, and exceeded my skill level with the new race, but it was a scrubby thing to do and it cost me many months of improvement, as well as validating false mental reactions to losing like 'imbalance'. It turned out that I really was more interested strategically with Zerg anyway, but switching races again is even more daunting. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
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Aunvilgod
2653 Posts
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:45 wajd wrote: So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? You identify something you are doing wrong in your build order. Then you play against the PC at normal speed, where it's so slow and boring it's insane ... Then you do everything perfectly. Note all timings, timings for everything including units, buildings, scouting, never getting supply blocked, doing everything just perfect - even better than the pros at normal games. Then you do it again on faster game speed, and note that it's hard as hell even though you know exactly what you want to do. Then you try doing it in real games. And ... wow, you improved In addition, for practicing purposes, it's always good to always do the same build for a long time, because that way you know how to react and play that build do the best of your ability. Then you do a different build for a while, etc. Finding a practice partner is perfect for this, because then you can practice the same build vs the same race consistently, while on ladder you need to practice at least 3 builds (4 including random, if you don't just 6 pool them like I do to get it over with) which is ineffective in comparison. | ||
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stokes17
United States1411 Posts
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
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snooks
7 Posts
Break your big goal up into smaller steps. Question what youre doing, if its the right thing or you're just following a guide blindly. You need to question your motives and why you are doing it, every little thing you do should have a goal. | ||
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NeThZOR
South Africa7387 Posts
On March 10 2012 17:42 DaemonX wrote: And I think this is exactly what NOT to do. This just means you lose 80% of the lessons you actually have learned, though you might not realise it. It also validates the notion that it's the game that is the issue, not your methods of approaching your play. I race switched in Season 2, from Zerg to Terran. I have regretted it many times. I eventually got back to, and exceeded my skill level with the new race, but it was a scrubby thing to do and it cost me many months of improvement, as well as validating false mental reactions to losing like 'imbalance'. It turned out that I really was more interested strategically with Zerg anyway, but switching races again is even more daunting. Switching races can be detrimental for your skill yes, but in some cases it can actually inject some fresh blood into your play which will allow you to surpass your perceived "skill ceiling". I can attest to that, because I played Terran at first and climbed through the ranks until I got to high platinum, at the point where I also thought that I had reached my skill ceiling. So for a few weeks I did not really play ladder, but still continued playing a lot of custom 1v1s. Eventually I decided I could just as well try Protoss out, and incidentally Protoss became my favourite race from there on (I also played a lot with Zerg). Therefore I soon played ladder again, at the start of a new season. It wasn't that hard to cope with the skill level at the time, as I played hundreds of custom games with Protoss beforehand. After that I just kept on laddering with Toss and lo and behold, two weeks ago I finally made it into Diamond. For me this is a personal achievement, and shows that with determination anything is possible. Now onto that elusive Master league  | ||
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virpi
Germany3598 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
Unless you are trying to make a living out of playing, why would you want to stop just because you aren't rising on the ladder? Why not just play because it's...well...fun? | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
-Switch race -Focus on farming achievements(not in an abusive way, mind you) -Play off the wall builds, like BC rushes -Quit playing. Sticking with any videogame for a year and a half is fairly unusual, when you think about it. | ||
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Recognizable
Netherlands1552 Posts
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Lowko
Netherlands286 Posts
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:45 wajd wrote: So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? When you've tried everything to get better, meaning - watching your own replays, downloading replays, practicing every day, laddering, watching streams, watching live events, reading strategy threads, trying to seek coaching when you can't afford it, asking questions whenever you can... I mean everything. And none of it works. When you have been the same rank for a year and half. When you join a custom game, and you end up playing a master, and the game isn't even remotely close. (im a protoss plat) When you want to be serous with this game and it just isn't happening. Do you have to just suck it up and tell yourself to give up this dream, and stop playing? Accept the fact that this game is so easy for alot of people, but I'm not one of them. So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? I feel exactly this way, been stuck at Diamond since the launch of this game, but I just keep playing anyway for some hope of getting better. Though I don't see it happening. =[ | ||
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LisKelicious
Germany36 Posts
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong747 Posts
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Beef Noodles
United States937 Posts
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FrOsTyy
United States125 Posts
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vvv
13 Posts
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goldenwitch
United States338 Posts
Until you hit that 10000 number, you can't be confident in your analysis of where your skill lies relative to your maximum potential skill. I find 10000 hours to be both reassuring and daunting for the same reason. I won't hit 10000 hours for a long long time. | ||
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Animostas
United States568 Posts
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bgrN.
Sweden66 Posts
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snooks
7 Posts
On March 10 2012 18:36 sleepingdog wrote: So, if you work out 5-6 times a weak and still fail to win a triathlon...do you stop doing sports altogether? Unless you are trying to make a living out of playing, why would you want to stop just because you aren't rising on the ladder? Why not just play because it's...well...fun? QFT Working out benefits you more than wasting time playing video games as well. | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
Infact: everyone who played over 2 years , a significant amount of games and is above 18 is not likely to improve much more and should be near their personal skill ceiling. Dont think its a problem, whats left is playing sc for fun, wich is great i might add | ||
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Honga
Australia64 Posts
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Phays
Sweden162 Posts
Positive attitude is the way to go. | ||
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
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Fym
United Kingdom189 Posts
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
1. Except the top 5 SC2 players in the world almost any job pays better than being a pro gamer. So getting better will give not give you any money. 2. If you got twice as good you would still lose half your games due to how the ladder matchmaking is constructed. So getting better will not win you more games. 3. Plat now is better than Master one year ago; everyone has improved a lot. So even if you are standing still league wise it very likely that you are improving rapidly. 4. No one is even at 10% of their skill cap. Gold players 2 years from now will be better than the current Master players. So there are a huge number of SC2 skills to improve and no one has even mastered the basics yet. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 10 2012 13:02 Xarow wrote: until you're using 100% of your brain, you haven't reached your skill ceiling. this applies to everything. +1 | ||
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DaisyP
United States47 Posts
fwiw, two things that changed the way I played bw: 1) after talking to better bw players (e. g. gretorp), I realized that I wasn't thinking about the game correctly. For newbs, sc is about learning bo's and unit composition. This is sorta the foundation, but not the "point" of the game. At its core, sc is actually a STRATEGY game (imagine that), where you make decisions! Break EVERYTHING down, and ask why players do the things they decide to do. What are the opportunity costs when you build 2 gateways before nexus? nexus after 1gate? when you decide to tech x at n timing rather than y at n timing? Why is a certain timing attack commonly used? If you're a protoss player, I remember seeing some commentated fpvods of whiteRa that were really nice, where you can see the excellent scouting/decision making that exemplifies sc. 2) actually practice! If you want to get better, don't just ladder and play the game. Just like a basketball player does shooting drills, runs plays, and does physical condition drills (i. e. specific training regimens that generally aren't fun, but make you better) , you have to actually focus on specific aspects of your mechanics. When I played bw "competitively" in college, I spent almost half my time in single player, making sure that at all times and situations, my nexus was always flashing (unless I was probe cutting or at saturation), and my gates were always producing (ALWAYS!!!! unless I was unit cutting to squeeze out a nexus or tech). I also focused on multitasking (storm drop 2 locations while microing a large battle, dt harass 2 locations while macroing, etc.) If you can't do these things in single player, you can't do them under pressure. Some other tips: 1) Do you have enhanced pointer precision turned off? | ||
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Mataza
Germany5364 Posts
If you feel you don´t get better no matter how often you play, then there is most likely a problem with your mentality. It happens to everyone. When you think "I can´t play faster" or "I can´t look back to my base while I´m fighting" then that´s the first thing that´s wrong. Being faster and more precise is a totally dull thing you can train. It´s easier for some people than it is for others, but still everybody with 2 working hands can reach pro gamer speed and precision. It´s just a lot of work and it´s probably dull. Watching streams and reading strategy thread does not automatically make you better. There is the difference between knowing and understanding. I personally know a lot of zerg playstyles like roach/infestor, broodlord/infestor or ling/muta. But the only zerg playstyles I fully understand are simple ones like pure roach or pure ling. Also those are pretty bad competitively. Just never assume you already understand something which you only know. On March 10 2012 19:52 DaisyP wrote: 1) after talking to better bw players (e. g. gretorp), I realized that I wasn't thinking about the game correctly. For newbs, sc is about learning bo's and unit composition. This is sorta the foundation, but not the "point" of the game. At its core, sc is actually a STRATEGY game (imagine that), where you make decisions! Break EVERYTHING down, and ask why players do the things they decide to do. What are the opportunity costs when you build 2 gateways before nexus? nexus after 1gate? when you decide to tech x at n timing rather than y at n timing? Why is a certain timing attack commonly used? If you're a protoss player, I remember seeing some commentated fpvods of whiteRa that were really nice, where you can see the excellent scouting/decision making that exemplifies sc. 2) actually practice! If you want to get better, don't just ladder and play the game.(..) When I played bw "competitively" in college, I spent almost half my time in single player, making sure that at all times and situations, my nexus was always flashing (unless I was probe cutting or at saturation), and my gates were always producing (ALWAYS!!!! unless I was unit cutting to squeeze out a nexus or tech). I also focused on multitasking (storm drop 2 locations while microing a large battle, dt harass 2 locations while macroing, etc.) If you can't do these things in single player, you can't do them under pressure. Some other tips: 1) Do you have enhanced pointer precision turned off? Qoted for truth. A buildorder is a set of decisions you are not making others made for you. You only know those decisions. Always work on understanding the decisions so you can make your own. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation Does this equate to switching races? | ||
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Sup3rior
Sweden442 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation amazing =) | ||
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Guamshin
Netherlands295 Posts
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Tedde93
Sweden169 Posts
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OGzan
United States289 Posts
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AnythingThenDelete
381 Posts
Maybe take a " little " break ( not too long could lost a lot ), then go back to the game ( or maybe try to play zerg/terran just a little and then rego back to toss ) , you will maybe have a new sight on your skill. And try to define your troubles ( low apm ? map awareness ? low macro ? low micro ? low multitask ? need more precision on your game ? ) , there migh be something you miss. IMO if someone does exactly what you have listed , he migh be able to reach the master league ( not GM ). | ||
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Cokefreak
Finland8095 Posts
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Goliath0nline
Canada165 Posts
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Mesha
Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation Agreed. This is true not just for starcraft. | ||
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Vetrocide
Norway600 Posts
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Dariusz
Poland657 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:45 wajd wrote: So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? You practice better and more. | ||
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Rebel_
Canada94 Posts
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Kuni
Austria765 Posts
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
Starcraft players are so obsessed with this idea of improving that you've apparently forgotten why you play the game/games in the first place. On March 10 2012 21:30 Kuni wrote: While one ounce of platinum is worth almost 1300 Euro (1700 Dollars) at the moment, it is far below being top notch in Starcraft. Everybody can get ranked in Master league, if they play the game properly without having to train 16 hours a day in Korea. Actually, they can't, because that would break the league distribution. If every player in SC2 was of exactly equal skill and MMR, there would still be people in bronze, simply because of how the ranking system works - relative, not absolute. | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:45 wajd wrote: When you want to be serous with this game and it just isn't happening. Do you have to just suck it up and tell yourself to give up this dream, and stop playing? Accept the fact that this game is so easy for alot of people, but I'm not one of them. So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? I'm kinda curious what you mean by that. I mean you're already taking it way more seriously than your average gamer just by doing all of that stuff. If you mean you want to consistently improve, well you probably have. Its just that so has everyone else. If you want to get to Master league, well if you've really tried everything and it was possible for you to get there you'd probably have made it by now. Humans are different physically, they're also different mentally. There's no practical difference between saying someone literally is unable to reach Masters, and saying someone would have to practice 16 hours a day to reach Masters. In either case its an unrealistic, unhealthy and therefore undesirable goal. Finally, in an ideal world where everyone follows the "perfect" training regimen, and has a completely optimistic mindset, you STILL wouldn't be in Masters. Because the inherent mental and physical differences would still be in play. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
Skill ceilings do exist, but I doubt the OP has reached his. Sometimes a break helps and yes, it could be the way you look at the game. If it's not working; you got to try something different. | ||
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carrion
United Kingdom87 Posts
Edit: spelling | ||
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Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
Play more, find the mistakes in your play, make a mental note to stop making them, and play more games. Repeat a few thousand times and you'll eventually be a very, very good player. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Think of a keyboard sequence like maybe something random like fwrx342sree. Now type that with the left hand, practice it until you can type it so fast you type like 5 characters a second. Congrats, you now have the prerequisites for 300 APM. Click with your mouse in random spots in the screen over 5 times a second, you have prerequisites for 300 APM again. Now the rest is going to be practice and muscle memory. Then we get to the strategy. It's obvious you can't be capped here as you can just copy others. Assuming you're a reasonably intelligent person, you indeed can study others, study your own replays. Figure out what something means. Use logic to guess something like "If I see 2 hellions he's going reactor factory" and then watch the replays to find out if that is true. Mostly when people talk about skillcap or that their personal skill is capped, they're just approaching the game in the wrong way and don't put in the time it might deserve, or concentrate in the completely wrong things. First you need to work on the large problems with your play, and no never say "I just can't do this faster" or something like that. Tell yourself that you're destined to play at 400 APM, you just need to keep up with it and don't give up. Also when you lose games think about important things to gameplay and jump like a shark to improve on it. Your macro is a problem? Don't go "Oh I just can't macro", think about how you could improve upon it. Play some games against computers and try something like, "micro units for only 10 seconds and go back to macroing always" and after some time, be it hours or days, you will learn to go back to macro. If you have a problem with supply depots, make a habit out of checking the supply counter every few seconds, perhaps at the same time you check the minimap. When to do that? When you have nothing important you need to see in the main screen. For example when you're macroing, you're not using the main screen so you can glance at both, also while you're moving the army and it's not engaging you have good time for this as well. A bad time to check them would be during the heat of battle, but you can still do something like issue initial commands(amove, EMP, etc) and then go macro and check supply etc. after which you can go back to microing, after which you again macro. There's numerous ways to improve that are very simple and intuitive but that people really don't think about either because they are lazy or because they want to justify themselves and feel better about themselves and tell themselves that it's not their fault that they aren't good. | ||
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TuElite
Canada2123 Posts
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
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BushidoSnipr
United States910 Posts
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djukger
Germany68 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:45 wajd wrote: So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? When you've tried everything to get better, meaning - watching your own replays, downloading replays, practicing every day, laddering, watching streams, watching live events, reading strategy threads, trying to seek coaching when you can't afford it, asking questions whenever you can things not to do, downloading replays, watching streams, watching live events, coaching, reading strategy threads. Sorry watching someone else play doesn't help, as well as coaching i think. Just practise you races all ins 1000 times, then find a practise partner that just does all ins against you and so on, if you did that you can evolve your gameplay further than the all ins because you will probably see kill triggers for you all-ins and get a feel when to all-in and when to retreat and macro up. Thats why when korean all-ins work so often against "normal" foreigners(meaning not top notch) because they never practised every all-in, 2 base play etc. to such an extend. They Day9 approach to take 10 bases is nice, but you have to be able to do all ins, 2 base play - and - defend against that first. Why is Flash so good? Because when asked by his coaches to train against zerg, he just plays 1000 games against zerg. | ||
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NoctemSC
United States771 Posts
In the past I've thought I'd reached a skill ceiling yet I always found more to work on. I was sure I was capped at silver, then gold, then plat and now here I am typing this, at rank 1 Diamond about to hit masters. Someone earlier in the thread said "you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation" I've lived by a similar motto "Tear down the canvas and create a new masterpiece" I think this applies in not only art, but in life in general. | ||
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Jett.Jack.Alvir
Canada2250 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation I think what he means is try something new. There is so much variation in this game, and maybe the reason why you hit a ceiling is because you are doing the same thing over and over. However, I think you have several options op. 1. hire a teacher 2. find practice partners and work on your weakness 3. just play casual and accept your skill level in SC2 Your call, but I suggest the practice partner. If you can't find one, try going on ladder and after every match ask for a custom rematch. You will be surprised how many people will say yes. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On March 10 2012 22:55 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote: I think what he means is try something new. There is so much variation in this game, and maybe the reason why you hit a ceiling is because you are doing the same thing over and over. However, I think you have several options op. 1. hire a teacher 2. find practice partners and work on your weakness 3. just play casual and accept your skill level in SC2 Your call, but I suggest the practice partner. If you can't find one, try going on ladder and after every match ask for a custom rematch. You will be surprised how many people will say yes. Even just posting a thread on teamliquid where you ask for help for overcoming your problems(with a replay) they can tell you what you do wrong. If it's macro that's incredibly EASY to fix, most people just are too lazy to do it. However it has nothing to do with skillcap if it's a macro or even micro type of a thing assuming you don't have a disability preventing you from properly using your hands. | ||
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Zaragon
Sweden235 Posts
I have not played SC2 too seriously, more off and on while constantly watching tournaments. But I do believe I hit my skill ceiling in WoW. Not because there weren’t things I could do better, but because I did everything to a reasonably high percentage of my own perfection (which it’s not possible to reach in any case) and my reaction time was as good as the best competitive FPS players or Olympic athletes—a thing I wouldn’t have felt comfortable saying then, but am now. Now I have MS. My reaction time is perfectly average and just fine for most kinds of gaming, but even if I perfect everything else, could I beat my peak performance? Not likely. And that, to me, serves as a definition of “skill ceiling”. I’m struggling slightly myself with what to do. I was always competing against myself, hardly ever anyone else, but I can’t pretend that my motivation wasn’t affected by the fact that I might now have an unbeatable old self to compete with. I really think the answer is simple. If you can’t find satisfaction from the things you can improve—and those things always exist; they would still exist if you lived a hundred thousand years—then it might be a good idea to focus on something else. But if you can find satisfaction from those little things, then great; and who knows, one of those little things might suddenly become larger than you expected, and the skill ceiling disappears. Don’t count on it, but don’t rule it out either. | ||
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TheSubtleArt
Canada2527 Posts
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sotaporo
Finland195 Posts
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BenBuford
Denmark307 Posts
On March 10 2012 22:09 DarQraven wrote: Starcraft players are so obsessed with this idea of improving that you've apparently forgotten why you play the game/games in the first place. I play solely for the sake of improvement. I don't really care about winning or having fun. Sure, the goal is to eventually win more, but it's when I can identify improvements in my play, or enter a new league on ladder, that I get my kicks and my small victories. This is what motivates me to keep playing. Not individual game wins or "having fun". | ||
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blixel
United States17 Posts
Choose your analogy. Basketball, golf, whatever. Not everyone can be Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods. The vast majority (99.99% of the population) have to be content to be casual Sunday afternoon golfers. I live with the fact that I have no musical talent. Try as I might, I just don't have the innate talent to pick up a guitar and strum out my favorite songs. This fact is made abundantly clear to me when I see kids as young as 7 or 8 years old playing like rock gods having no formal training. I don't know what your personal limit is, but I can assure you that you do have one. | ||
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RemnantToe
23 Posts
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Nivoh
Norway259 Posts
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DarQraven
Netherlands553 Posts
On March 11 2012 00:19 blixel wrote: I'm surprised to see so many people echoing this idea that there is no such thing as individual skill limit. I find that pretty ridiculous. If there were no such thing as individual skill limits, then everyone who played SC2 would be as good as [name your favorite pro player here]. And if everyone were that good, then the game would be completely pointless. (It would be like playing tic-tac-toe. Everyone would know how to cause a draw in every single match regardless of who went first.) Choose your analogy. Basketball, golf, whatever. Not everyone can be Michael Jordan or Tiger Woods. The vast majority (99.99% of the population) have to be content to be casual Sunday afternoon golfers. I live with the fact that I have no musical talent. Try as I might, I just don't have the innate talent to pick up a guitar and strum out my favorite songs. This fact is made abundantly clear to me when I see kids as young as 7 or 8 years old playing like rock gods having no formal training. I don't know what your personal limit is, but I can assure you that you do have one. This, a thousand times. Good work ethics are great and all, but it's simply naive to assume that everyone could be a Boxer, NaDa or Jaedong. It's an insult to decades of biological and psychological research. This is real life, not a Disney movie. | ||
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Dujek
United Kingdom276 Posts
On March 11 2012 00:26 DarQraven wrote: This, a thousand times. Good work ethics are great and all, but it's simply naive to assume that everyone could be a Boxer, NaDa or Jaedong. It's an insult to decades of biological and psychological research. Yes, not everyone has the potential to be a top pro. But to imply that there are gold players out there with no chance of improving is equally ridiculous. | ||
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
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lorkac
United States2297 Posts
I'm not saying we should bleed on our keyboards--but we have to accept that we will eventually reach a mechanical barrier where it is our own physical limitations that hold us back. When it feels like our brain has more ideas and decisions than our hands can produce. This barrier is the true area of the game where the advice "work on your mechanics" is the most appropriate. Anyone can run--but it takes dedication to be an Olympic runner, it takes training to do a marathon, etc... Most players, myself included, eventually max out on our hand brain relationship. That's when we go in and practice the tiniest aspects of the game and only focus on that. It took me a week to build a refinery on 13 supply. It took me a month to prevent a consistent supply block on 52 supply. All these tiny moments that "work for the most part" all takes a long time to perfect mechanically. There isn't a skill ceiling, there is a will ceiling. How much more of your time in a day are you willing to spend not playing a video game and simply training Hand motion? Training scout timings? Training apm accuracy? Etc... | ||
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blixel
United States17 Posts
On March 11 2012 00:33 Dujek wrote: Yes, not everyone has the potential to be a top pro. But to imply that there are gold players out there with no chance of improving is equally ridiculous. It's not ridiculous. Gold league exists for a reason. If EVERYONE could get out of Gold league, then the ranking system would be inherently broken. But it's not broken, it's relativistic. So there will always be a group of people in Gold. And some of them are permanently stuck there because their relative skill will never increase enough to get them into Platinum. They may improve, but unfortunately other people improve too. Add to that the fact that new people buy the game, have a knack for it, and improve at a much faster rate than other people who have played for months or years. So not only is it NOT ridiculous to say that some people are stuck in Gold (or Platinum or whatever), but I would even go as far as to say it's possible (perhaps even probable) that some of those people are more likely to go DOWN in rank even though they are getting better at the game over time. (They just aren't improving as fast as everyone else.) | ||
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Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On March 10 2012 23:24 BenBuford wrote: I play solely for the sake of improvement. I don't really care about winning or having fun. Sure, the goal is to eventually win more, but it's when I can identify improvements in my play, or enter a new league on ladder, that I get my kicks and my small victories. This is what motivates me to keep playing. Not individual game wins or "having fun". You voluntarily spend your free time on something you're not having fun with? What? | ||
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mazqo
Finland368 Posts
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Holy_AT
Austria978 Posts
So whats it gona be ? What I hear your post is your frustration of not getting better. Maybe you should give up and lean back for some weeks and enjoy the game without the context of getting better and needing to win or stop playing at all for some weeks. The most important thing is to enjoy what you are doing and if you do not enjoy it you cant really get better. Find out how you enjoy to play or if you enjoy it and you will know what todo. | ||
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TheTurk
United States732 Posts
Even on an individual level. Anyone has the ability to become MC or MKP if they pour years and years of hard, dedicated training and ironstead heart into this game. Whoever told you that there is has significantly tainted your potential and esteem. | ||
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Jedclark
United Kingdom903 Posts
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On March 11 2012 01:50 TheTurk wrote: There is no "skill ceiling" that anyone can feasibly reach. Even on an individual level. Anyone has the ability to become MC or MKP if they pour years and years of hard, dedicated training and ironstead heart into this game. Whoever told you that there is has significantly tainted your potential and esteem. I guess all those Koreans playing for 8 hours a day for years and not even getting into Code A must not be dedicated enough. Believing in yourself is one thing, but this is just *ridiculous*. | ||
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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Korste
United States64 Posts
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ForgottenOne
Romania236 Posts
But to kinda answer the question: + Show Spoiler + I'm close to the skill ceiling in Software Development (equivalent to top Korean Pros) and I feel like giving up to pursue something challenging again; I think Poker. | ||
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Forikorder
Canada8840 Posts
if you play to ahve fun then keep on having fun | ||
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KJSharp
United States84 Posts
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poorcloud
Singapore2748 Posts
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Competent
United States406 Posts
tl;dr A: You aren't practicing/working at the games as hard as you should/say you are. B: You have a learning disability/brain defect. In my opinion, take about a month break, play an FPS or RPG and come back to RTS. It should flush some bad habits you have. It should also refresh your mind so you don't get burnt out. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Sacrilege
United States199 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation This! If you're not improving, it's not something due to progressing and other skills attained while getting better, if you're not progressing it means that you need to look back at the basics and see what might be wrong and where you can fix, polish and fine tune your already known skills. | ||
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Gyro_SC2
Canada540 Posts
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GWBuffalo
United States234 Posts
If I really felt like I could make 0 progress, then yeah, I'd quit. But I doubt that is possible. The game is just too complex to hit a literal skill ceiling. | ||
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mrRoflpwn
United States2618 Posts
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
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Rockztar
Denmark210 Posts
I've noticed this with myself as well as with others. It seems people think they've reached their skill ceiling due to a stale learning curve, but in my own case this was broken by small "revelations" almost that would improve my play more and more. Things such as when I was in gold, and started thinking "Wow bunkers are actually pretty good, and let me do a lot of stuff quicker at a very low price." xD. I think you should start looking for seemingly small things that would improve your play a ton. I'm up for checking your replays for you if you need help just pm me, I'm high master's terran, but guess I can still give advice on protoss? Anyways if you don't decide to take me up on my offer I still wish ya good luck. | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
On March 10 2012 13:02 Xarow wrote: until you're using 100% of your brain, you haven't reached your skill ceiling. this applies to everything. Which is impossible because its not even possible to use 100% of your brain. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
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Adonminus
Israel543 Posts
Reaching a skill ceilling means you will start losing more and eventually get demoted. If you stay the same rank, it means your improving rate is close to the average player improving rate, if your rank increases, it means you're learning faster than most people. | ||
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Hoodlum
United States350 Posts
On March 11 2012 02:52 Adonminus wrote: You don't reach a skill ceilling ever. For example if you're rank 50 in master and you always stay rank 50 even though you play each day. You might think you don't advance, however that's a huge mistake. Each day every player in starcraft becomes better, and being rank 50 in season 6 in master isn't the same skill as being rank 50 in season 1 in masters. Reaching a skill ceilling means you will start losing more and eventually get demoted. If you stay the same rank, it means your improving rate is close to the average player improving rate, if your rank increases, it means you're learning faster than most people. EXACTLY, if your the same rank it doesn't mean your not improving it just means your not improving faster then anyone else... | ||
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On March 11 2012 02:22 Competent wrote: My honest opinion. If you have been playing (and trying hard) for a year and a half with no improvement, then I think your brain is under developed. I don't say that to be mean, but if you look at the facts your brain should have better learning capabilities than that. I truly think your brain isn't up to par with the average. I play on and off with no previous RTS background. I watch some pro streams from time to time and watch my replays. I play about 2 hours a week and watch replays/streams 1 hour a week. I would play more but my busy work/school schedule stops that. I was high diamond when the game was released. I was high masters when that was created. And I am high masters at the moment. If I could dump 5-10 more hours into the game a week there isn't a doubt in my mind that I couldn't be GM. tl;dr A: You aren't practicing/working at the games as hard as you should/say you are. B: You have a learning disability/brain defect. Sure. If people can accept that there's extra gifted people who can perform above par without as much practice, there must be anti-gifted people who can't hit the same levels. I wouldn't call it a brain defect as such, though technically it would be a mild one. | ||
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Sophron
Australia21 Posts
On March 11 2012 02:22 Competent wrote: My honest opinion. If you have been playing (and trying hard) for a year and a half with no improvement, then I think your brain is under developed. I don't say that to be mean, but if you look at the facts your brain should have better learning capabilities than that. I truly think your brain isn't up to par with the average. I play on and off with no previous RTS background. I watch some pro streams from time to time and watch my replays. I play about 2 hours a week and watch replays/streams 1 hour a week. I would play more but my busy work/school schedule stops that. I was high diamond when the game was released. I was high masters when that was created. And I am high masters at the moment. If I could dump 5-10 more hours into the game a week there isn't a doubt in my mind that I couldn't be GM. tl;dr A: You aren't practicing/working at the games as hard as you should/say you are. B: You have a learning disability/brain defect. In my opinion, take about a month break, play an FPS or RPG and come back to RTS. It should flush some bad habits you have. It should also refresh your mind so you don't get burnt out. This post is hilarious. But I mean, fair point. You probably have a learning disability if you can't be good at Starcraft, which is after all a fairly easy task to learn. Anyway, the rest of the post is mostly correct. I don't think it's possible to be practicing/training -correctly- and not improve at all over a year and a half. Mindlessly playing games and watching shows can only get you so far, and isn't platinum/diamond about where pure macro stops promoting you? I don't think your own personal skill ceiling comes into it. | ||
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Jek
Denmark2771 Posts
 You'll only stop progressing if you either, a) don't train or b) train wrong (getting bad habits etc). Everyone have a talent, that's a given but talent only makes it easier to progress, saying anything else is just an excuse from quitters, sorry. | ||
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IrOnKaL
United States340 Posts
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Mario1209
United States1077 Posts
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OutlaW-
Czech Republic5053 Posts
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wajd
240 Posts
About hiring a teacher/coach. I can't afford it. Simple as that. Any masters/GM/pro's here care to coach me for free? Doubt it. Even when I find a coach/master that I played and think they're style of play matches my own so they might be able to help me, they don't. I just look at any GM/pro player, and ask: Why are they so much better than me? I'm pretty sure we are playing the same game. Am not fast enough? Maybe high APM does equal skill. Do I not have enough gaming background to be as good as them? Starcraft 1-2, is the only computer/video game I play. Am I not smart enough? Do I need a higher IQ? or is being really good at Starcraft just a God-given talent that I don't have? Obviously, practice doesn't mean anything. I feel like I've been practicing forever, with nothing to show for it in relation to my goals. On March 10 2012 23:06 TheSubtleArt wrote: Skill ceilings for certain people might exist but it really shouldn't be at platinum. You're probably approaching the game wrong. Decent mechanics, an effective hotkey set up, and very basic knowledge of build orders should be more than enough to land you in high diamond / low masters. I think you've described me perfectly. But, all that is clearly not enough to get even into low diamond. Two months ago the ladder started matching me up against diamonds. I thought I was on my way. Now? No diamond opponents, and I'm being matched up against golds, and losing. And thanks for all for the responses, and trying to help. | ||
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Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
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BenBuford
Denmark307 Posts
On March 11 2012 01:29 Canas wrote: You voluntarily spend your free time on something you're not having fun with? What? Yes, I do. I know it can be hard for some people to understand that one might find gratification in other things than "fun". I like to witness results, from putting in hard work/analysis/effort. More rewarding to me personally. I'm not playing to kill time, if that is what you mean. I actually dont have that much time to play --> "I usually don't play... But when I do, it's not for fun". | ||
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Ryps
Romania2740 Posts
On March 11 2012 02:48 TBone- wrote: Which is impossible because its not even possible to use 100% of your brain. You are using 100% of your brain function stop believing bullshit stories on the internets. | ||
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Grebliv
Iceland800 Posts
Practice it and you'll get a bit better at said thing. Now repeat untill you can't find anything, + Show Spoiler + as in never You are just experiencing some kind of a mental block. Nothing you are doing is perfect (or even close to) if you're in plat. If it was you'd get promotoed off that one thing unless you are bronze level in everything else. | ||
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Demonaz
United Kingdom1219 Posts
But anyway if you feel like you've done everything possible to improve I'd recommend switching race, trolling 4v4 for a few days before going back to 1v1, playing a different online game even for a while. Anything to get out of the current mindset and return fresh. | ||
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theBALLS
Singapore2935 Posts
I think I'm done with SC2, gonna play LoL now | ||
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Selkie
United States530 Posts
Is there a skill ceiling as pertains to time? Yes, someone who never plays to improve will not get better, thus, they've "hit a ceiling"- is it an unsurpassable barrier? No. With focused effort on improving, players will improve. | ||
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NTTemplar
609 Posts
You just need to learn better, in a more efficent way. To learn how there is the internet and books on the subject. On March 11 2012 03:36 Ryps wrote: You are using 100% of your brain function stop believing bullshit stories on the internets. Yes we do, but not conciously. Conciously human beings on average use about 10% only. | ||
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Nerski
United States1095 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:45 wajd wrote: So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? When you've tried everything to get better, meaning - watching your own replays, downloading replays, practicing every day, laddering, watching streams, watching live events, reading strategy threads, trying to seek coaching when you can't afford it, asking questions whenever you can... I mean everything. And none of it works. When you have been the same rank for a year and half. When you join a custom game, and you end up playing a master, and the game isn't even remotely close. (im a protoss plat) When you want to be serous with this game and it just isn't happening. Do you have to just suck it up and tell yourself to give up this dream, and stop playing? Accept the fact that this game is so easy for alot of people, but I'm not one of them. So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? A couple of suggestions to you 1) Have someone other then you look at your replays, if you are stuck in plat and are analyzing your own replays obviously there must be something wrong with how you are perceiving your mistakes. Example: As a zerg player I could look at one engagement where I lost a ton of stuff because I engaged at a poor angle or something of that nature. However, rather then looking at that sole engagment (especially at plat level) what else could I be looking at that may have lead up to that event going so badly? - Did I macro properly? meaning did I hit my injects on time, did I take bases fast enough, did I build enough drones. - Did I scout properly? Was I blind at some point to my opponents composition and did I miss a scout timing I should of hit? If I messed up a lot some where earlier in the game, then my focus is in the wrong place looking at one bad engagement where I lost a bunch of stuff. Prior to D/M/GM and to even quite a bit of an extent D and Low M mechanics mean 10x more than strategy. If your mechanics are bad, odds are that you will lose much more often even with sound strategy. 2) Examine how you are 'practicing', and decide if you need to look at other avenues of practice. - For some people ladder and just playing helps them improve - For some people playing scenario style custom maps helps them improve - For others playing against a friend and talking about the games they play vs. one another helps them improve List goes on but there is not 1 catch all to improving. 3) Only once all else has failed should you start to consider the possibility that you are as far as you can get based on the time you can put in to the game. Then you have to ask yourself the question is the game still 'fun' if you can't dedicate the time to progress further. - if yes, then continue to play and try to shift your mental focus away from improvement and just enjoy yourself. - if no, then you should consider playing far less and focusing your free time towards something more enjoyable. Just a few suggestions, there is no catch all to any game. If you are not having fun because you can't be one of 200 people out of 100's of thousands on a single server who reach GM (something like .2% of total server pop), then maybe SCII isn't for you. | ||
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FuGGu
United States176 Posts
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On March 11 2012 03:22 wajd wrote: I just look at any GM/pro player, and ask: Why are they so much better than me? I'm pretty sure we are playing the same game. Am not fast enough? Maybe high APM does equal skill. Do I not have enough gaming background to be as good as them? Starcraft 1-2, is the only computer/video game I play. Am I not smart enough? Do I need a higher IQ? or is being really good at Starcraft just a God-given talent that I don't have? Only you can really answer that. Starcraft basically boils down to 1) Read information off screen and from sound effects 2)Process information 3) Come up with a response on the spot, or retrieve one from memory 4 )Execute response using mouse and keyboard 5) Repeat. 1)Are you not noticing enemy drops/army movement on minimap, or the fact that you're about to get supply blocked? Perception problem. 2) Are you frequently pausing because you're too busy processing information? Cognitive problem. 3) Are you too slow to think about what to do next in response to a rehearsed situation? Its a memory recall problem. Too slow to come up with a solution to a unique problem? Problem solving/critical thinking weakness. Edit : Also technically a cognitive problem. In fact 2 and 3 are probably the same thing more or less. 4) Do you misclick, or just not click fast enough to do the stuff you know needs to be done? Its a hand speed or hand-eye co-ordination problem. Most of those can be trained, though personally I find 2 and 3 very difficult. I'm not stupid, but I'm not good at thinking quickly in real life either, especially under pressure. 1 and 4 are probably easier to overcome with training. | ||
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Demonaz
United Kingdom1219 Posts
On March 11 2012 02:22 Competent wrote: My honest opinion. If you have been playing (and trying hard) for a year and a half with no improvement, then I think your brain is under developed. I don't say that to be mean, but if you look at the facts your brain should have better learning capabilities than that. I truly think your brain isn't up to par with the average. I play on and off with no previous RTS background. I watch some pro streams from time to time and watch my replays. I play about 2 hours a week and watch replays/streams 1 hour a week. I would play more but my busy work/school schedule stops that. I was high diamond when the game was released. I was high masters when that was created. And I am high masters at the moment. If I could dump 5-10 more hours into the game a week there isn't a doubt in my mind that I couldn't be GM. tl;dr A: You aren't practicing/working at the games as hard as you should/say you are. B: You have a learning disability/brain defect. In my opinion, take about a month break, play an FPS or RPG and come back to RTS. It should flush some bad habits you have. It should also refresh your mind so you don't get burnt out. haha this post is hilarious. Not GM in sc2? Must have brain defect! Its a tough game, getting to diamond even is an achievement in itself. Takes a lot of dedication to get to masters/GM, plus good co-ordination and quick thinking skills. Some people are naturally better at this than others. Doesn't mean they are stupid, people have different talents. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
Have you tried really pinpointing where your games go wrong, and what you are doing wrong? Understanding is key here. Watch a progamer play, watch yourself play, and try to determine what your biggest shortcomings are. Work on fixing those. Maybe its mechanical, maybe its decisionmaking, maybe its just that you don't fundamentally understand how the game works - thats a big one imo, once you learn to properly read a game everything just starts falling into place. At its core, Starcraft is not a very complex game - at least not if you're not playing at the highest level possible. The solution to your problems might be as simple as just playing more aggressive/passive, macroing better, focusing on your micro when its important... But you just gotta figure it out yourself I guess. Edit: I see the OP has made many different threads on the issue.... Well, I'd say the problem is that you are too focused on "why am I not improving" and not "how can I improve". Just mindless repetition and looking for easy ways to improve (pro replays, coaching) will not help you if you are not willing to put some thought into it yourself. | ||
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emis
Estonia409 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:57 Utinni wrote: If I gave up on everything I wasn't perfect at... You'd be French. | ||
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Magic_Mike
United States542 Posts
Better hope you never want a career in E-sports. Racist. > | ||
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Competent
United States406 Posts
On March 11 2012 03:56 Demonaz wrote: haha this post is hilarious. Not GM in sc2? Must have brain defect! Its a tough game, getting to diamond even is an achievement in itself. Takes a lot of dedication to get to masters/GM, plus good co-ordination and quick thinking skills. Some people are naturally better at this than others. Doesn't mean they are stupid, people have different talents. Call it what you want. If we have a continuum of people's ability to adapt and improve and it scales like so. Lots of practice, no improvement on the left and Lots of practice, lots of improvement on the right l-----------OP--------------------------------------Casual M/GM------------------------------------Pro-------l Depends where you draw the line. Obviously someone like OP, if he really is trying to improve, doesn't, then what are you going to pin it on? His brain is at an obvious disadvantage. Now if you come from an upbringing with little league attitudes, "Everyone is equal and we are all winners!" Then I can see where you are coming from, but I call it like I see it: Compared to Pros, I have a brain defect/learning disability, however subtle. Compared to me, OP has a brain defect/learning disability, however subtle. Or I can just say everyone is a little different, but I don't sugar coat shit and I won't for someone that is asking for reasonable critique. If you don't want a straight face bold answer, then, after you. ![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/spongebob/images/8/82/180px-WeicheischuppenJr..jpg) | ||
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Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On March 11 2012 03:33 BenBuford wrote: Yes, I do. I know it can be hard for some people to understand that one might find gratification in other things than "fun". I like to witness results, from putting in hard work/analysis/effort. More rewarding to me personally. I'm not playing to kill time, if that is what you mean. I actually dont have that much time to play --> "I usually don't play... But when I do, it's not for fun". I can understand that, yes, I'm a pretty competitive person and I like improving at things I find fun. I could never see myself trying to get good at something I don't find particularily fun however, like why would I want to get good at dancing which I'm not very fond of, instead of getting good at something I actually do like, ie starcraft? | ||
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rd
United States2586 Posts
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InseKtSC2
United States173 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:45 wajd wrote: So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? When you've tried everything to get better, meaning - watching your own replays, downloading replays, practicing every day, laddering, watching streams, watching live events, reading strategy threads, trying to seek coaching when you can't afford it, asking questions whenever you can... I mean everything. And none of it works. When you have been the same rank for a year and half. When you join a custom game, and you end up playing a master, and the game isn't even remotely close. (im a protoss plat) When you want to be serous with this game and it just isn't happening. Do you have to just suck it up and tell yourself to give up this dream, and stop playing? Accept the fact that this game is so easy for alot of people, but I'm not one of them. So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? You can't try to force the success, it will happen. I tried this and it didn't work overwhelming well, though I did go from bronze to diamond in my first year of the game. Basically though, you have to love the game. You will never want to be a professional in SC2 if you do not love the game first. You hear many pros be interviewed and they say they didn't start with the goal of going pro, they just enjoyed the game and got good enough to become professional. | ||
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Natespank
Canada449 Posts
If you're talking about your personal skill ceiling though... lol. Noob. I guess you don't realize it, but that happens sometimes, and then you... ascend. Keep at it (noob comment refers to learning: experienced learners know that with dedication they will eventually surpass themselves) | ||
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Natespank
Canada449 Posts
You can't try to force the success, it will happen. I tried this and it didn't work overwhelming well, though I did go from bronze to diamond in my first year of the game. I object. I think that forcing success is the best way | ||
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
Once you have the timings down by heart, post 3 or so replays of yourself playing the build and losing in the guide thread or post it in a [H] thread. It's likely that other people will see ways for you to improve that you won't have thought of. You can get into masters. You can certainly get into diamond. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
On March 11 2012 04:14 Competent wrote: Or I can just say everyone is a little different, but I don't sugar coat shit and I won't for someone that is asking for reasonable critique. If you don't want a straight face bold answer, then, after you. I have to ask, do you maybe have a history of playing RTS games? Personally, I got the game at release, but I didn't pay much attention to the beta. I was expecting to be placed into the lower leagues at start, but to my surprise I was placed into diamond and have been in the mid-high masters leagues since it was introduced. Like you, I have not played that many games of SC2 - however, I did play quite a bit of BW and WC3 for years after their release, which apparently that developed me a general RTS sense that was eventually carried over to SC2. I didn't even play any games before SC2 was released and got me into gaming again. I think many RTS veterans take their skills for granted. I can see that new players that don't really have RTS experience might have a lot more trouble learning the ropes in SC2. | ||
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romelako
United States373 Posts
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Competent
United States406 Posts
On March 11 2012 04:30 Bagi wrote: I have to ask, do you maybe have a history of playing RTS games? Personally, I got the game at release, but I didn't pay much attention to the beta. I was expecting to be placed into the lower leagues at start, but to my surprise I was placed into diamond and have been in the mid-high masters leagues since it was introduced. Like you, I have not played that many games of SC2 - however, I did play quite a bit of BW and WC3 for years after their release, which apparently that developed me a general RTS sense that was eventually carried over to SC2. I didn't even play any games before SC2 was released and got me into gaming again. I think many RTS veterans take their skills for granted. I can see that new players that don't really have RTS experience might have a lot more trouble learning the ropes in SC2. I played Total Annihilation back in 1999 for about a year. Ever since then I have either played FPS or MMORPG. | ||
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mazqo
Finland368 Posts
On March 11 2012 04:33 romelako wrote: the skill ceiling is nonexistent. there is always going to be something in your game that you need to improve...unless you're flash lol. Obviously, but the problem is that you wont improve even if you try hard. | ||
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Mjolnir
912 Posts
I haven't played SC2 for about 4 weeks because I felt like I just stopped getting better. I was so frustrated that after my last game (which I won but didn't feel like I deserved too) I immediately lost interest in everything SC2 related. I have never felt that before towards anything - and certainly not so suddenly. I think the absolute frustration of not feeling as though I've improved after playing for so long just suddenly hit me like a truck. I honestly felt stupid. Like, "what the fuck is wrong with me that I cannot solve this problem? Am I too fucking stupid to see what I'm doing wrong? Am I too stupid to adapt to different scenarios?" Despite all academic successes to the contrary, it makes me feel like an idiot. I would like to improve my level but I don't know it's possible. I empathize with the OP. I really, really do. I hope there's a solution that we will eventually find, even if after a bit of a break. | ||
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unit
United States2621 Posts
On March 11 2012 04:35 mazqo wrote: Obviously, but the problem is that you wont improve even if you try hard. then the problem is the practice regime...each person is different so they need different practice regimes some people need to play more games others less (aka play less theorycraft more stuff like that) each person has an optimal means of improvement usually multiple you just keep going until you hit a plateau then switch to a different regime when you start getting diminishing returns until which point you have mastered every individual skill or ability from the ground up...most people just either don't "try to improve" (aka switch to improving something other than their strengths) or don't realize their weaknesses which along with any ego can turn disastrous leaving them raging and thinking the game is broken (i wonder how many people who say the game is broken really believe it is) | ||
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vahgar.r24
India465 Posts
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Thent
United States35 Posts
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Kich
United States339 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:45 wajd wrote: So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? When you've tried everything to get better, meaning - watching your own replays, downloading replays, practicing every day, laddering, watching streams, watching live events, reading strategy threads, trying to seek coaching when you can't afford it, asking questions whenever you can... I mean everything. And none of it works. When you have been the same rank for a year and half. When you join a custom game, and you end up playing a master, and the game isn't even remotely close. (im a protoss plat) When you want to be serous with this game and it just isn't happening. Do you have to just suck it up and tell yourself to give up this dream, and stop playing? Accept the fact that this game is so easy for alot of people, but I'm not one of them. So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? This sounds like a lot of silly misguided whining. In particular, "Accept the fact that this game is so easy for alot of people, but I'm not one of them." I mean it's fun to be in emo-land once in awhile, but get real, this game isn't easy for anyone. Everyone who's good got good by practicing, Starcraft isn't a natural talent, it's like, the epitome of an unnatural talent actually. The only reason you aren't getting better is because you don't actually know what's wrong with your play. Figure that out and improve it, ignore winning, just try to be good. You don't always get rewarded for making the right decision in a game, but the more you do it, the more you will. | ||
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TheTurk
United States732 Posts
On March 11 2012 01:55 Monkeyballs25 wrote: I guess all those Koreans playing for 8 hours a day for years and not even getting into Code A must not be dedicated enough. Believing in yourself is one thing, but this is just *ridiculous*. Maybe they should play 12 hours a day? My point is that there always exists some amount of time and effort that, when implemented into hardcore practice, will result in any given goal of skill. This amount of required time and effort will undoubtably vary between players, from a few hours a day (Stephano) to huge 18 hour chunks (others?). If one was so inclined, he could reach any level of play. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44257 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:56 feanor1 wrote: You play the game for fun? Exactly what I was going to say | ||
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ZjiublingZ
United Arab Emirates439 Posts
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GertHeart
United States631 Posts
Generally it means no mistake is acceptable and can be improved on. This is a tedious process and is boring, but once you can implement it, then it becomes enjoyable. | ||
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
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BadgKat
United States156 Posts
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Polygamy
Austria1114 Posts
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Monkeyballs25
531 Posts
On March 11 2012 05:28 TheTurk wrote: This amount of required time and effort will undoubtably vary between players, from a few hours a day (Stephano) to huge 18 hour chunks (others?). If one was so inclined, he could reach any level of play. By the time you're talking about 18 hour practice sessions, you're talking about something practically impossible to achieve anyway. The human body can't hack something like that. On a more realistic level, take someone who only has a few hours to practice per day because of real life issues. They'll also be subject to a cap on ladder success, which they could only surpass by doing something drastic like quitting their job. Call it their "casual skillcap" if you like. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15677 Posts
The truth is, people who have gotten really good are people who have hit a lot of road blocks, but know how to get past them and put in the extra amount of hard work to overcome those road blocks. You feel like you've reached a ceiling, but don't let that make you feel like you couldn't be getting better. You might not be willing to put in the effort and analyze yourself to the extent that you need to in order to improve, but don't fool yourself by thinking its your "ceiling", as if its some kinda physical barrier. | ||
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cmgillett
United States335 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20285 Posts
On March 11 2012 04:33 romelako wrote: the skill ceiling is nonexistent. there is always going to be something in your game that you need to improve...unless you're flash lol. Flash has to improve his non-turret-cancelling kills so he doesnt break his next 14 winstreak in proleague | ||
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NexUmbra
Scotland3776 Posts
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TORTOISE
United States515 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15677 Posts
On March 11 2012 06:25 TORTOISE wrote: If you can't enjoy the game without "improving," maybe it is time for a break. SC2 should be an enjoyable experience in itself. Can anyone confirm that this is the case for some people? lol  I've tried 100 times to just enjoy SC2, but the competitive spirit always ruins it for me! T_T | ||
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Penecks
United States600 Posts
For example I'm a mid-ish masters player and I usually play 1-2 games a day, sometimes not even. I just don't find the game that fun to play any more than that, simply because I know that high masters/GM players are so much better than me I would have to invest hours of time everyday to reach that level. It can be pretty demotivating. Have I reached my overall skill ceiling? Probably not. Is it the skill ceiling of how much time I am willing to invest into the game? Likely. Of course there are exception of people playing like 3 games a week and being in GM, but I imagine those are pretty talented, outlier individuals. | ||
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On March 11 2012 06:28 Mohdoo wrote: Can anyone confirm that this is the case for some people? lol I've tried 100 times to just enjoy SC2, but the competitive spirit always ruins it for me! T_T If you're not playing SC2 for money, I fail to see why you'd bother with it if you don't find it fun. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 11 2012 04:14 Competent wrote: Compared to Pros, I have a brain defect/learning disability, however subtle. Compared to me, OP has a brain defect/learning disability, however subtle. It's ludicrous and offensive for someone who's performing in the top 2% of all players to say that anyone who doesn't reach that point has a "brain defect." | ||
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Akta
447 Posts
A lot of talented athletes quit during those periods because it can of course be very hard to stay motivated when it doesn't feel like you are improving, sometimes for a whole year or longer. On the other hand, I agree with what many already said. If you aren't a pro-gamer or plan to become one, shouldn't having fun be what matters most? | ||
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
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Grobyc
Canada18410 Posts
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Dalavita
Sweden1113 Posts
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
On March 11 2012 06:31 Penecks wrote: I don't think the proper term is exactly "skill ceiling" though I understand what the OP means, for me personally its the place in your progression where a much greater amount of time/effort must be invested than ever before, and since this is a simple hobby for many rather than a lifestyle, it can be difficult to break through. For example I'm a mid-ish masters player and I usually play 1-2 games a day, sometimes not even. I just don't find the game that fun to play any more than that, simply because I know that high masters/GM players are so much better than me I would have to invest hours of time everyday to reach that level. It can be pretty demotivating. Have I reached my overall skill ceiling? Probably not. Is it the skill ceiling of how much time I am willing to invest into the game? Likely. Of course there are exception of people playing like 3 games a week and being in GM, but I imagine those are pretty talented, outlier individuals. Yes...I agree with this. So many people are saying there is no skill ceiling. But its ridiculous because its backed up by almost no evidence or reasoning. What if people are simply born with slower reflexes than others? Are you going to tell me that I can overcome my genetic limitations through sheer will? I mean sure you may be able to rewire your brain via brain plasticity...but does that apply to your reflexes as well? Can I choose to become a theoretical physicist through sheer will too, and transform myself into a genius? A similar argument holds for SC2. How do you know that people can force their minds to become super-capable of multitasking and quick thinking, to the extent that other players like Stephano are capable of? Because this is precisely what's being supported when one says there is *NO* skill ceiling. Even if it were possible, its exactly as you say. It would require an absurd amount of time and effort to become as good as other players; which for all practical intents and purposes is the equivalent of a skill ceiling. All of these poetic statements are just pleasant sounding nonsense. "Destroy the floor and lay a new foundation". Yes that sounds nice. Too bad it doesn't make any logical arguments based on evidence as to why the skill ceiling doesn't exist...and so is of no practical use to anyone. But I'm sure it'll motivate some people who assume its true just because it sounds poetic | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 11 2012 11:04 radscorpion9 wrote: I mean sure you may be able to rewire your brain via brain plasticity...but does that apply to your reflexes as well? While I agree with you that there's a range of inherent reaction time in various people, I would say it's likely that focused practice can improve people's reaction time, to a point. It's also true that most casual SC2 players don't engage in the type of practice that would bring about that specific improvement. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
On March 11 2012 11:04 radscorpion9 wrote: Yes...I agree with this. So many people are saying there is no skill ceiling. But its ridiculous because its backed up by almost no evidence or reasoning. What if people are simply born with slower reflexes than others? Are you going to tell me that I can overcome my genetic limitations through sheer will? I mean sure you may be able to rewire your brain via brain plasticity...but does that apply to your reflexes as well? Can I choose to become a theoretical physicist through sheer will too, and transform myself into a genius? A similar argument holds for SC2. How do you know that people can force their minds to become super-capable of multitasking and quick thinking, to the extent that other players like Stephano are capable of? Because this is precisely what's being supported when one says there is *NO* skill ceiling. Even if it were possible, its exactly as you say. It would require an absurd amount of time and effort to become as good as other players; which for all practical intents and purposes is the equivalent of a skill ceiling. All of these poetic statements are just pleasant sounding nonsense. "Destroy the floor and lay a new foundation". Yes that sounds nice. Too bad it doesn't make any logical arguments based on evidence as to why the skill ceiling doesn't exist...and so is of no practical use to anyone. But I'm sure it'll motivate some people who assume its true just because it sounds poetic You would have to have a pretty immense brain deficit to hit your ability cap in sc2. Yes, practice improves reaction time/multitasking. There are studies that show this, one as recent as a week or so ago. There was a thread about it and the findings are being published in an academic journal. Genetics play such a minor role in videogames. It's all about learning and muscle memory. So long as you don't have a learning disability and put in the hours, you WILL get better. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 11 2012 11:20 zefreak wrote: Genetics play such a minor role in videogames. It's all about learning and muscle memory. But there are many types of learning, many types of cognitive skills, and genetics absolutely play a role in at which ones a person is stronger. Video games depend a lot on reaction time, which varies quite a bit among all kinds of people with all kinds of other mental skills. I had an SAT (college admission test, for those not in the U.S.) score that was 20 points away from perfect at age 14, but I've played about 3500 ladder games of Starcraft 2 (as Zerg) and I'm still hovering around high gold, low plat. I can tell you exactly what my issues are -- they're ultimately a matter of imprecise control and slow reaction time when I *can't* rely on muscle memory for success. At no point in my life have I been that great at tests of reaction time or manual dexterity. Meanwhile, my half brother, who shares a quarter of my genes, and with whom I did not grow up, is at this point very likely to match my performance on the SAT. These things are influenced by genetics, as well as environment, including practice. Very focused practice might help on the purely mechanical front, but it's hard to spend the time doing something that's tedious when there are other things going on. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
I remember reading in Gheeds blog that the bronze person he played improved slowly after repeated worker rushes. The reason this person is in the bottom of bronze is because he improves so slow for w/e reason. If you keep on playing SC2 for one more year and remain in Platinum you are getting better. Gold at the begining of beta was a lot worse than it is now. A lot worse trust me on that. You are in fact getting better and you have not reached your skill ceiling but maybe the ceiling for the rate of improvement. I think the fact that your rank isn't changing is a bad indication of how much you are improving. getting out of Platinum for me was more of a matter of re-choosing new builds that were safe agaisnt cloaked banshees for terrans cause i would go 3 gate aggro expo and would die to one cloacked banshee. For PvP it was not relying on Dt base race, and pvz IDR. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
On March 11 2012 11:32 Lysenko wrote: But there are many types of learning, many types of cognitive skills, and genetics absolutely play a role in at which ones a person is stronger. Video games depend a lot on reaction time, which varies quite a bit among all kinds of people with all kinds of other mental skills. I had an SAT (college admission test, for those not in the U.S.) score that was 20 points away from perfect at age 14, but I've played about 3500 ladder games of Starcraft 2 (as Zerg) and I'm still hovering around high gold, low plat. I can tell you exactly what my issues are -- they're ultimately a matter of imprecise control and slow reaction time when I *can't* rely on muscle memory for success. At no point in my life have I been that great at tests of reaction time or manual dexterity. Meanwhile, my half brother, who shares a quarter of my genes, and with whom I did not grow up, is at this point very likely to match my performance on the SAT. These things are influenced by genetics, as well as environment, including practice. Very focused practice might help on the purely mechanical front, but it's hard to spend the time doing something that's tedious when there are other things going on. I see what you are saying, but normal genetic variation changes the rate of progress, not the 'ceiling'. Unless you have a serious learning disability I can't imagine someone approaching the point where you can't improve. The return on investment might be very low for some types of people, however. | ||
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Lysenko
Iceland2128 Posts
On March 11 2012 11:48 zefreak wrote: I see what you are saying, but normal genetic variation changes the rate of progress, not the 'ceiling'. Unless you have a serious learning disability I can't imagine someone approaching the point where you can't improve. The return on investment might be very low for some types of people, however. I'd argue that nobody really knows what the "ceiling" is on any particular skill for a particular person, and it's impossible to say to what extent genetic variation affects that without extensive research, and maybe not even then. | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
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TheLOLas
United States646 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation Yes, just yes. Once you reach the skill ceiling, you just add a new addition to the house. | ||
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-_-Quails
Australia796 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:45 wajd wrote: So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? When you've tried everything to get better, meaning - watching your own replays, downloading replays, practicing every day, laddering, watching streams, watching live events, reading strategy threads, trying to seek coaching when you can't afford it, asking questions whenever you can... I mean everything. And none of it works. When you have been the same rank for a year and half. When you join a custom game, and you end up playing a master, and the game isn't even remotely close. (im a protoss plat) When you want to be serous with this game and it just isn't happening. Do you have to just suck it up and tell yourself to give up this dream, and stop playing? Accept the fact that this game is so easy for alot of people, but I'm not one of them. So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? Unannounced monobattles on ladder. You'll have a lot of fun, lose a lot, get a lot of confused reactions and eventually you'll develop perfect forcefields from all the sentry only games. | ||
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Adamgm
Canada68 Posts
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lubu42
United States314 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
What you can do is stop getting better because you believe it's impossible to actually play better than you already are. But it's not possible to reach a point where you metaphysically can't improve anymore. If you believe that's the case then you're holding yourself back mentally. If you're frustrated that you don't seem to be getting better, I recommend you watch professional players cast games. Not casters, but pros. Hearing Destiny, Idra and Catz talk about how they approach the game will throw your own perception of the game out of the window. Soon you'll be looking at things from a different perspective and you'll start improving your play again. Edit: There are way more aspects to SC2 than just rote mechanics, micro and macro. There are a SHITLOAD of subtleties that make a difference at a higher level, especially if you're plat/gold/etc. And maybe off-racing or actually changing the civ you play can help. For instance, switch to Terran. | ||
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FidoDido
United States1292 Posts
When you switch races, the game becomes completely different! and possibly more fun! | ||
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wajd
240 Posts
On March 11 2012 17:25 lubu42 wrote: The thing for me is that you never really reach your skill ceiling. It's all about plateaus (which has been discussed many times before). You get stuck at a point in which you're having lots of trouble/difficulty and you don't know where to go from there. That's usually where you hit a plateau. You need to break through it and get to the next area where you can keep improving. Breaking through this plateau or "Skill Ceiling" requires you finding out why you're having such a tough time lately and figuring out how to fix it. I've hit many of these along the way and I've so far managed to work past them all. One of them even involved me switching races! (T to Z if you wanted to know ;D ) It can get stressful and doubtful but in all honestly just keep playing and watching VOD's and stay on the forums and watch your replays etc etc. and eventually you will figure out whats keeping you down from playing! Good luck my friend!! How long does a plateau last for? Especially when you play everyday, practice everyday, watch streams....basically live for the game. If a plateau lasts forever, isn't that a ceiling, or a skill limit? Example: I recently won 8 of 9 games, all against plat. My play was pretty good, until I was matched against a diamond. And lost, and it wasn't even close. The very next game? Matched against a gold. And lost. Honestly, I don't get it. There must be some other factor to this. Like I'm too old, or I'm not using the right computer or something. There's just nothing else I can do. I can't beat Diamonds, and sometimes I lose to Golds. I'm just a Plat player, no more no less... And I don't understand why there is a debate about a skill ceiling or limit. It exists. | ||
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
Ur not in masters? Don' bother with build orders/strategy. The reason ur losing is because ur macro and micro aren't good enough, that's the only reason. You can send me 100 replays of ur previous losses and i'm 100% confident u could have won all of them by macroing and microing better. So basically: Stop wasting hours on watching strategy threads and high level streams, those strategies are meant for players that can actually get the most out of them because their mechanics are good enough. What u do is this: Pick 1 build for each matchup, just 1 I don't care what build it is. Ur only allowed to do that build until u reach masters. By only practicing 1 build per matchup u will get better at it leaving u more time to fix ur multitasking/mechanics which is the main thing u need in this game. Masters guaranteed if u do what I just said. | ||
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
I don't see why you'd quit if you plateau somewhere below where you wish you could be at. Wanting to give it up would mean that you are not having fun with the game. If you don't enjoy the game, you shouldn't be playing in the first place. | ||
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Ballack
Norway821 Posts
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
On March 11 2012 13:33 DarKcS wrote: Someone needs to quote "the art of learning" :/ I'm sure it's ok to post excerpts under fair use. I just so happen to have this book right next to me XD So I'll do the honors: "If a big strong guy comes into a martial arts studio and someone pushes him, he wants to resist and push the guy back to prove that he is a big strong guy. The problem is that he isn't learning anything by doing this. In order to grow, he needs to give up his current mind-set. He needs to lose to win. The bruiser will need to get pushed around by little guys for a while, until he learns how to use more than brawn. William Chen calls this investment in loss. Investment in loss is giving yourself to the learning process." Seriously, this book is definitely living up to all the hype! ----------------------------- On March 25 2012 00:49 wajd wrote: Example: I recently won 8 of 9 games, all against plat. My play was pretty good, until I was matched against a diamond. And lost, and it wasn't even close. The very next game? Matched against a gold. And lost. Honestly, I don't get it. There must be some other factor to this. Like I'm too old, or I'm not using the right computer or something. There's just nothing else I can do. I can't beat Diamonds, and sometimes I lose to Golds. I'm just a Plat player, no more no less... And I don't understand why there is a debate about a skill ceiling or limit. It exists. More than likely you were knocked off your game by the fact that you lost to a diamond by a large margin and your play was off the next game. It happens to everybody. | ||
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logikly
United States329 Posts
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BeeNu
615 Posts
Raise the roof. | ||
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Zerker
Canada201 Posts
I play at least one game a day. 20+ on the days which I am free, which is 2-3 times a week. If I'm not playing, I'm watching a stream/event. 1 game a day, That's where ur going wrong. Play a min of 50 a day. Everday. For the next 1 year. Straight. Without a break. There u go, That's how a korean pro plays. | ||
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CakeSauc3
United States1437 Posts
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Meatex
Australia285 Posts
then start to tilt and go down to plat league and facing golds this cycle has happened for me twice and you know what I discovered? Its not about multitasking, micro, macro, timings or in game stuff like that. Its about being healthy - having plenty of sleep (this is the biggest one) excercise, eating healthy helps me go from playing plat level to playing masters level. Just saying | ||
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Hetz
196 Posts
I have been playing this game as zerg since start almost 2 years ago. No beta, no rts experience. I have played about 3500 games now, all custom (since aim too scared to ladder and all i get is 1 base all ins or straight up cheese). I still lose to gold players and my zvz is soo awful I don't even try at all. So all i do is zvp and zvt's. I still suck at macro, scouting and general game sense. I can't say that I enjoy losing 23/7 (unless my opponent is very very bad) but still I keep trying to improve. But this thread made me realize its futile! I reached my skill ceiling (which is so low a child would bump his head). This game just is too hard and everybody does just that build to kill me without effort. IAM SICK OF SC2!! So too answer your question: YES! | ||
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G_G
Canada178 Posts
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RezChi
Canada2368 Posts
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m1rk3
Canada412 Posts
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mahO
France274 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:45 wajd wrote: So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? When you've tried everything to get better, meaning - watching your own replays, downloading replays, practicing every day, laddering, watching streams, watching live events, reading strategy threads, trying to seek coaching when you can't afford it, asking questions whenever you can... I mean everything. And none of it works. When you have been the same rank for a year and half. When you join a custom game, and you end up playing a master, and the game isn't even remotely close. (im a protoss plat) When you want to be serous with this game and it just isn't happening. Do you have to just suck it up and tell yourself to give up this dream, and stop playing? Accept the fact that this game is so easy for alot of people, but I'm not one of them. So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? Lol man, I was taking you seriously until i saw that you're plat protoss. And i'm absolutely not playing the "cocky master" act, everyone starts somewhere, but at plat protoss, you COULD get way better even with 80 years old hands. And i'm serious when saying that, I actually am pretty slow, 90~100 apm at mid master level, and it would be (almost) the same level at 70~80. Things you must work on as a protoss and that is hard? Control! : It will take tons of games, and the most dangerous thing in SC2 : when you're actually improving but not realizing it AT ALL. Thats the "boring" or / hard part of SC2, dedication, to train despite the amount of training ahead of you, and the possibility that you might take 3 months to fix your gameplay, but maybe it will turn around in a week, you cant really know, you just have to train, and if you can, against the same people, find training partners, and you will know how to improve, not necessarely by chatting with your mate, but especially when you know the skill level of your opponent, you can evaluate your own and find your mistakes on a 15 games range. So no, I could speak about skill ceiling myself, I'm mid master for around 6 months, I tried many things, my hands just freeze up to add the additional control & macro management, so I just cant get to top master, really clearly, for months, thats skill ceiling, you're really far from being there, just work on your style and dont look for excuses P.S: Loosing to a Master is really ok, I think Master league is like 2 or 3% top of the servers? People often describe "non masters" as noobs but it just aint true, even Plat is already quite high | ||
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
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johnnywup
United States3858 Posts
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Shivvy
Canada37 Posts
Just don't give up man. Enjoy the game, accept the losses. More GG more skill. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
On March 25 2012 04:25 SupLilSon wrote: Quit I guess, since Blizzard apparently only balances the game for the top 0.5% of players. That's the only place you can balance it. When you lose a game at the lower levels it has to do with your lack of skill, not the balance. A pro can beat a noob using a somewhat broken build any day of the weak. | ||
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thrawn2112
United States6918 Posts
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Jhimmibhob
United States6 Posts
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation First post in this thread, from a new poster, with an awesomely inspiring quote. Dunno why I'm pointing this out. It just made me feel happy. | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
Most people don't quit basketball, football, chess, or whatever other fun hobby they do because they plateau in skill. Don't understand why people treat SC2 any different. You more than likely aren't going pro and probably never even wanted to. | ||
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
Find someone to watch your replays with you. Chances are you are incorrectly diagnosing your mistakes and correcting the wrong aspect of your play. | ||
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Rasera
Canada96 Posts
The fact that you are still in the same league means you are progressing at the same rate as the rest of the ladder. You haven't plateau'd, it's that the ladder has progressed along with you. To get ahead of the curve again is hard, but if you do what a lot of people have suggested in this thread, you can improve and get past it. | ||
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SuperFanBoy
New Zealand1068 Posts
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Kashll
United States1117 Posts
If so then keep playing. If not then maybe consider a different hobby. | ||
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PeanutsNJam
United States175 Posts
On March 26 2012 16:48 SuperFanBoy wrote: I reached my peak, got to GM on SEA and NA and than I lost my competitive nature.. switched to LoL and didn't look back. That's like saying you went from playing chess to connect 4. If I was a solid GM on 2 servers I'd totally try and play in major tournaments. | ||
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MrJargon
United Kingdom158 Posts
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Marduce
Canada14 Posts
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sVnteen
Germany2238 Posts
if you have an injury or something thats a different story but if you don't there is no skill ceiling imo EDIT: and for sc2 i guarantee you that noone has reached his skill ceiling yet if you think that there is one | ||
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BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
I got the game when it was released, and played it as much as someone with a 40 hr/wk job could. I had fun with it for the most part; I went through some emotional swings like anyone that 'cares' if they win or lose would. Eventually I stopped caring, and just wanted to play it for something to burn some time on. I did some of that for a while, and eventually just got bored with the game and put it away. I'm a gamer that needs some new content or a change of scenery every once in a while (like mmo games have), and I understand that an RTS isnt really the kind of game for that for the most part, but that is why I got bored with it. I guess my 'skill ceiling' is the same as my interest level of the game. I dont enjoy playing it anymore, and there is no reason for me to 'improve' on something that I dont enjoy doing. I am not into competition as much anymore; I just want to have fun, and im not having fun anymore because this game has a lot of repetition to it. A big factor in my loss of interest in this game is the fact that none of my friends play it as well. | ||
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
On March 28 2012 07:37 ishyishy wrote: I hit my skill ceiling, and I essentailly quit the game. I play maybe once every week or 2, but thats about it (and it wont be 1v1). I got the game when it was released, and played it as much as someone with a 40 hr/wk job could. I had fun with it for the most part; I went through some emotional swings like anyone that 'cares' if they win or lose would. Eventually I stopped caring, and just wanted to play it for something to burn some time on. I did some of that for a while, and eventually just got bored with the game and put it away. I'm a gamer that needs some new content or a change of scenery every once in a while (like mmo games have), and I understand that an RTS isnt really the kind of game for that for the most part, but that is why I got bored with it. I guess my 'skill ceiling' is the same as my interest level of the game. I dont enjoy playing it anymore, and there is no reason for me to 'improve' on something that I dont enjoy doing. I am not into competition as much anymore; I just want to have fun, and im not having fun anymore because this game has a lot of repetition to it. A big factor in my loss of interest in this game is the fact that none of my friends play it as well. Best fix for that is find friends who play it. | ||
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LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
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ScaSully
United States488 Posts
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
Best fix for that is find friends who play it Yeah you would think so right? However that is extremely hard to accomplish. | ||
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LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
On March 28 2012 07:54 ishyishy wrote: Yeah you would think so right? However that is extremely hard to accomplish. not at all just ask someone to possibly play some games with if you have a good game vs them. As long as you haven't BMed them or been BMed by them most people will accept if you are nice about it. | ||
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ishyishy
United States826 Posts
On March 28 2012 08:05 LimeNade wrote: not at all just ask someone to possibly play some games with if you have a good game vs them. As long as you haven't BMed them or been BMed by them most people will accept if you are nice about it. I never said people werent nice. I dont really care what people say in-game; that kind of stuff doesnt effect me at all. In fact, I think the concept of bm'ing is quite entertaining When someone says "you are a PoS noob scumbag that will never get any beter blah blah blah" i basically return with comments similar. Everyone likes to do things that you are otherwise not allowed to do in real life without being punished for it right? WHat I am talking about is that the roughly 20 people that i consider to be friends (either good friends or people that i see occasionally) just do not like sc2, or RTS games in general. I actually made a good effort to get a few of them into sc2 specifically. I went as far as buying a copy of the game for one, and buying a GSL season ticket for another because I wanted them to see what I enjoyed. They just couldnt give a rats ass about it lol. From sc2 release to the present day, I have played the game by myself in a sense. There was no one that I could share an interest in sc2 with. Just being apart of the "community" isnt enough for me. I still like watching GSL code S (because tastosis is fucking awesome, and the code A casters kinda suck and try too hard to be funny when they arent; they are just annoying) but I can no longer find a reason to play the game. Incontrol said something that I think is pretty key: if you have to find a reason, or motivation, to play the game other than just enjoying the game, then you should stop playing. A while ago, I was reading this thread about what motivates people, or how do they keep the motivation to keep playing. Those people just dont understand lol. | ||
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Herculix
United States946 Posts
On March 28 2012 08:24 ishyishy wrote: I never said people werent nice. I dont really care what people say in-game; that kind of stuff doesnt effect me at all. In fact, I think the concept of bm'ing is quite entertaining When someone says "you are a PoS noob scumbag that will never get any beter blah blah blah" i basically return with comments similar. Everyone likes to do things that you are otherwise not allowed to do in real life without being punished for it right? WHat I am talking about is that the roughly 20 people that i consider to be friends (either good friends or people that i see occasionally) just do not like sc2, or RTS games in general. I actually made a good effort to get a few of them into sc2 specifically. I went as far as buying a copy of the game for one, and buying a GSL season ticket for another because I wanted them to see what I enjoyed. They just couldnt give a rats ass about it lol. From sc2 release to the present day, I have played the game by myself in a sense. There was no one that I could share an interest in sc2 with. Just being apart of the "community" isnt enough for me. I still like watching GSL code S (because tastosis is fucking awesome, and the code A casters kinda suck and try too hard to be funny when they arent; they are just annoying) but I can no longer find a reason to play the game. Incontrol said something that I think is pretty key: if you have to find a reason, or motivation, to play the game other than just enjoying the game, then you should stop playing. A while ago, I was reading this thread about what motivates people, or how do they keep the motivation to keep playing. Those people just dont understand lol. i basically cannot play a game unless i have someone to play it with sometimes. it doesn't matter if i know them irl or in the game. i just need someone who's gonna be around to play with. you sound like you're like that too. don't try to force a game on people who aren't into it, but rather go find some of the channels that people into the competitive scene hang out in. just use TL search to find some channels and try and make friends and say you don't have people to play with. other people can probably relate | ||
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jax1
Sweden35 Posts
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Blasterion
China10272 Posts
Real Men > Skill Ceilings. | ||
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Bippzy
United States1466 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation This. I've clawed my way up to diamond as zerg in the ladder. But I'm fascinated by this 3 siege tank into marine marauder tvp and other shit Marinekingprime did in MLG Columbus. Terran time! :D | ||
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Capiachi
78 Posts
But more to your statement "When you have tried everything.." then you just enjoy it for as long as you please and then give it up. We play because its fun, some lucky members do it for money its just a matter of what you want to do. If your in plat and have been there for 1½ year then you havn't done everything, simple as that. Only you can find ways to improve. | ||
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SirPsychoMantis
United States180 Posts
One thing you have to remember is background. The game might be "so easy" for people (like making diamond after one month of playing) because of their background in gaming. How long have they played PC games? How long have they played RTS games? Chances are these people that are "naturals" played a lot of WC3 or SC:BW. | ||
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WniO
United States2706 Posts
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wajd
240 Posts
On March 29 2012 00:30 SirPsychoMantis wrote: Does it bother anyone else that the OP only responded like twice when there are a bunch of people trying to give him advice / ask questions? One thing you have to remember is background. The game might be "so easy" for people (like making diamond after one month of playing) because of their background in gaming. How long have they played PC games? How long have they played RTS games? Chances are these people that are "naturals" played a lot of WC3 or SC:BW. I read all the replies here. Trying to use them. Starcraft is the only game I play. Stopped playing console games around after the first playstation. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation Holy shit. Just opened up this thread...that's a fucking baller line. That made my day. Thank you man. You just made my day. Time to kick some ass in SCII. | ||
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DoubleZee
Canada556 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:56 feanor1 wrote: You play the game for fun? You think this is a mother fucking game? | ||
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bokchoi
Korea (South)9498 Posts
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Mvrio
689 Posts
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Orek
1665 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation Destroy upper floor to further improve, or destroy current floor to portrait farm deep under bronze. | ||
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kyriores
Greece178 Posts
I don't want to discourage you from trying, don't get me wrong. However, before deciding to do so I suggest you make sure that it is strategy that holds you back and not a "ceiling" in physical capabilities such as multitasking and reflexes. In this case trying to improve would be a waste of time in my opinion. | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
On March 30 2012 10:39 kyriores wrote: I believe that there is a skill limit for every player. I mean, if you really haven't improved after a year of hard training (provided that you recognize your mistakes in each matchup but fail to improve because you feel that you just can't keep up with your opponent's apm, precision of your moves, etc) you probably can't get much better at the game. It is true in every game I've played so far that people who devote more time playing are generally better than the more casual players, but even between those there are "noobs and pros". I don't want to discourage you from trying, don't get me wrong. However, before deciding to do so I suggest you make sure that it is strategy that holds you back and not a "ceiling" in physical capabilities such as multitasking and reflexes. In this case trying to improve would be a waste of time in my opinion. Well does that ever happen? To anyone? A full year of hard practice with no improvement, I seriously doubt that. You have to take into consideration that bronze, silver, or any league isn't what it was a year ago, so even if you haven't reached a new league you may have improved a lot anyway. | ||
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raf3776
United States1904 Posts
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kyriores
Greece178 Posts
On March 30 2012 10:44 hifriend wrote: Well does that ever happen? To anyone? A full year of hard practice with no improvement, I seriously doubt that. You have to take into consideration that bronze, silver, or any league isn't what it was a year ago, so even if you haven't reached a new league you may have improved a lot anyway. Exactly. That's why low leagues are mostly occupied by players that either don't devote much time to the game or are just new to it. You can't however overlook the fact that at some point you will reach your peak because of physical limitations. Physical limitations exist and even though it's silly to believe that someone in bronze-gold can't improve anymore it is definitely a possibility for higher ranked players. Of course that's just my opinion based on my personal experience from playing competitive games. | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
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Darknat
United States122 Posts
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kevinthemighty
United States134 Posts
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kevinthemighty
United States134 Posts
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KevinIX
United States2472 Posts
I have never felt like I reached a skill ceiling. Every game has something I can improve on, whether it's reading my opponent, learning a new strategy, or refining my build order. Maybe take another look at your replays. | ||
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[N3O]r3d33m3r
Germany673 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:45 wajd wrote: When you want to be serous with this game and it just isn't happening. Do you have to just suck it up and tell yourself to give up this dream, and stop playing? Accept the fact that this game is so easy for alot of people, but I'm not one of them. So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? what i do when i reach my skill ceiling? (sometime in the future) i will enjoy the game! like the challenge you get at that level. i mean what's the point of putting so much effort into something and then letting it go to waste? people who can't enjoy their skill once they get slightly good are to be pitied. i don't need to go pro or semi-pro to enjoy it. if you are going down a long arduous road you want to have something out of it later, in this case it would be enjoying the path there and being content with the end result | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
This applies to virtually anything in life, apply yourself, try, and you will break that ceiling whether it's education, job, games, whatever. btw, having peers and mentors helps too | ||
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DeekZ
Australia235 Posts
So yeah, there's no such thing as a skill ceiling so just keep doing what you're doing and you'll eventually improve. | ||
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:49 zOula... wrote: How much are you playing? how many games per day on average? Out of all those things you listed, playing is really the most beneficial thing to do to improve. You might not have reached your skill ceiling, you might just not be playing enough While this is absolutely true, it kind of is possible to hit your "effective skill ceiling." I'm luckily to play 10 games a week and often times I don't even play for a week or more at a time. I honestly can't get drastically better than I am with that kind of play time. I should also mention that 10 games is if I don't review replays in any meaningful way. I've finished at the top of my diamond division a few times, but honestly, I'm highly unlikely to improve much beyond where I am. I want to be clear that I am not saying I "should" be able to improve, or that I have some kind of right to, but its just the reality of the situation. | ||
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HansK
249 Posts
On March 30 2012 13:08 SnuggleZhenya wrote: While this is absolutely true, it kind of is possible to hit your "effective skill ceiling." I'm luckily to play 10 games a week and often times I don't even play for a week or more at a time. I honestly can't get drastically better than I am with that kind of play time. I should also mention that 10 games is if I don't review replays in any meaningful way. I've finished at the top of my diamond division a few times, but honestly, I'm highly unlikely to improve much beyond where I am. I want to be clear that I am not saying I "should" be able to improve, or that I have some kind of right to, but its just the reality of the situation. It's not that you can't improve, it's that you're not willing to do what it takes to improve. If you played 30 games a day in a pro house and cared/had confidence and had people assisting holes in your play etc, you would improve. | ||
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
On March 30 2012 13:21 HansK wrote: It's not that you can't improve, it's that you're not willing to do what it takes to improve. If you played 30 games a day in a pro house and cared/had confidence and had people assisting holes in your play etc, you would improve. Why is it that this is the response I see so often? Yes, what you say is obviously true. But why are we ignoring people's actual lives so often here? I'm happy with where I am in SC2, and I'm happy with where I am in life. I could improve in some hypothetical magical universe that doesn't exist, but in my current situation I can not. I don't understand why people either 1) find the need to try and refute this and 2) seem to get upset when people make the claim. I'm no scrub, I played games competitively (not professionally, but in leagues) for a decade, I know what it takes to improve. I also know I no longer have a lifestyle which supports what is needed. People don't choose whether or not they want to keep playing a video game based on a hypothetical like "if I lived in a pro house," the reason the OP feels compelled to quit is because he doesn't feel he can improve is his current situation, and he is justified in doing so if he wants to. Personally, it takes all the time I have just to maintain my current skill level - but I am satisfied with that and can live playing under those circumstances, but that doesn't mean everyone would want to, or should feel compelled to if they don't want to. | ||
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Tewks44
United States2032 Posts
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Eviscerador
Spain286 Posts
Don't take SC2 as a job, just have fun. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
Offracing can be good too if you struggle in a matchup or just want to try something new. | ||
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Naniwa
Sweden477 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
Not being a progamer at this stage simply means that you haven't worked enough for it. The notion that talent somehow roots out people is ridiculous. Talents makes you learn stuff faster. You can still learn that stuff with the right ammount of focused practise. | ||
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redDuke
Australia207 Posts
On March 10 2012 13:02 Xarow wrote: until you're using 100% of your brain, you haven't reached your skill ceiling. this applies to everything. My life motto ^^ Also, HOTS will come out and give you new strategies etc to employ so this may expand game play and allow you to play as you want to be able to. | ||
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Broodie
Canada832 Posts
Thereisnospoon | ||
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On March 30 2012 17:48 Naniwa wrote: you only reach your skill ceiling when you think you have That's a cute motivational poster. To follow this to its logical conclusion, everyone who is stuck at a ladder rank has a bad attitude or isn't trying or EVERYONE in their league is improving at EXACTLY the same rate. Really? | ||
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xsnac
Barbados1365 Posts
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U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On March 30 2012 17:53 StarBrift wrote: The "your skill ceiling" you're talking about is when you have perfect macro/micro and your reaction is honed to your personal max. Not being a progamer at this stage simply means that you haven't worked enough for it. The notion that talent somehow roots out people is ridiculous. Talents makes you learn stuff faster. You can still learn that stuff with the right ammount of focused practise. If I work hard enough, can I be in the NBA, too? Guess what: just because I am the same height as Nate Robinson does not mean I will EVER be able to dunk, no matter how many hours I train. I think far too many children on these forums were given overly optimistic impressions about their potential by well meaning parents. | ||
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
On March 30 2012 23:41 U_G_L_Y wrote: If I work hard enough, can I be in the NBA, too? Guess what: just because I am the same height as Nate Robinson does not mean I will EVER be able to dunk, no matter how many hours I train. And even if you could, the argument that it is hypothetically possible doesn't address the real issue we are talking about which is the skill ceiling given actual existing conditions. You're not going to drop everything to train basketball 12 hours a day even if you are an ok basketball player and play pick up games at the YMCA every week because you do other things. It could be that you've hit your skill ceiling *for the amount of time you have to spend.* Likewise in SC2 telling someone who says they've hit their skill ceiling to just play more is a ridiculous response. There is a legitimate discussion to be had about this - Is SC2 worth playing if you are both 1) someone who enjoys doing things for the sake of improvement and 2) feel you can't *reasonably* (emphasis on reasonably) manage to improve given your lifestyle. Yet it seems like people aren't to take it seriously. I understand this is a competitive community, but not every reason for not being able to improve is a whine, nor is it an appeal that they should be able to improve and play at a higher level. It can just really be acknowledging the reality of your situation. | ||
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PeanutsNJam
United States175 Posts
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lhr0909
United States562 Posts
On March 30 2012 17:48 Naniwa wrote: you only reach your skill ceiling when you think you have Naniwa, I made this just for you ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/kDJgl.jpg) | ||
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Sovano
United States1503 Posts
Not going to lie, that's a pretty good quote. | ||
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hakureiken
United States10 Posts
On March 30 2012 23:22 U_G_L_Y wrote: That's a cute motivational poster. To follow this to its logical conclusion, everyone who is stuck at a ladder rank has a bad attitude or isn't trying or EVERYONE in their league is improving at EXACTLY the same rate. Really? The mass public that plays SC2 knows "what" to think; they don't know how to think. The majority of players and build only mimic what they have seen, but have no ability to create something for themselves. The players who are constantly improving are the ones who are constantly theorycrafting what beats the current builds and setups they currently have (and improving them) while constantly thinking about what will beat the build that just caused a loss. Mimicry will only get individuals so far-- mechanics will only get individuals so far. Each individual setup is in a constant state of flux; the game itself is utterly dynamic. Becoming too far set in one pattern or one way of play will cause losses. Striving to improve, noticing mistakes, and being /willing/ to be your own worst critic allows someone to progress further. If there is something wrong in an individual's play, it must be admitted, noticed, not forgotten, and then fixed. 99% of SC2 isn't willing to do this (or they just don't care). I agree with Naniwa-- you have only arrived at your highest ability if you think you have; but it is dumb for /anyone/ to think that. | ||
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alpinefpOPP
United States134 Posts
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meatybacon
United States36 Posts
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Spoogymcgee
Australia14 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:45 wajd wrote: So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? When you've tried everything to get better, meaning - watching your own replays, downloading replays, practicing every day, laddering, watching streams, watching live events, reading strategy threads, trying to seek coaching when you can't afford it, asking questions whenever you can... I mean everything. And none of it works. When you have been the same rank for a year and half. When you join a custom game, and you end up playing a master, and the game isn't even remotely close. (im a protoss plat) When you want to be serous with this game and it just isn't happening. Do you have to just suck it up and tell yourself to give up this dream, and stop playing? Accept the fact that this game is so easy for alot of people, but I'm not one of them. So what do you do when you reach your skill ceiling? I understand what you are saying, I've found the best way to advance my play is by playing with friends and getting them point out mistakes in my games/replays. Also I wouldn't try to do anything cute with your play just work on basics (Maxing out, taking expansions, building right units, practising force fields/storms). Most of all to get better and improve your skill you have to be having fun while you play. Never quit or you wont get better. | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:49 Pantythief wrote: You play Skyrim for 5 minutes and realize how bad it is. Then you turn StarCraft 2 back on. User was warned for this post why is this post warned.. i played skyrim for about 10mins before getting bored and quitting.. anyways i pretty much reached my casual ceiling in masters. id have to play alot more to get any better and thats not realistic due to carpel tunnel | ||
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PhiliBiRD
United States2643 Posts
I've been playing on/off since 99 and I still feel I progress just slightly every game. | ||
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sorrowptoss
Canada1431 Posts
When you have been the same rank for a year and half. When you join a custom game, and you end up playing a master, and the game isn't even remotely close. (im a protoss plat) In no way does that mean you have reached a "skill ceiling". It simply means you lost to a better player. Now that I've said that a skill ceiling doesn't even exist, even in a world that it did exist, it still wouldn't be a good reason to give up on a game. You don't play a game because you want to understand it 100% and know every build or whatever, you play it to have fun. If understanding a game is the source of fun for you then by all means quit, but keep in mind that there will always be more to learn from a game. Some concrete advice: try out a new race. I started SC2 as a protoss and reached high diamond, then I got bored of such a (imho) non-versatile race (imho!!) so I switched to zerg and reached high plat, then I got bored again and reached low diamond with terran, and that's where I'm at. Switching races revives the love for this game, trust me! | ||
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xlava
United States676 Posts
Its a great game, play it to have fun and to get better, not just to get better. | ||
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Robble Dobble
Canada36 Posts
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Cassel_Castle
United States820 Posts
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mataxp
Chile538 Posts
Carriers dont work pvp :/(high diamond at least ) | ||
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DyEnasTy
United States3714 Posts
On March 10 2012 12:48 glyoArtOfWar wrote: you destroy the floor and lay a new foundation Simply an awesome way to put it. | ||
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doffe
Sweden636 Posts
Even so, what is your goal? If you have some sort of serious ambitions about starcraft 2 Id probably lower them by now. Plat for 1.5years almost certinly means that their is no way you can play at the highest level, sorry but thats just how it is. Sadly talent is just as big a part of this game as work ethic. | ||
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emjaytron
Australia544 Posts
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Coated
United States74 Posts
Having said that, if you feel you truley have hit this 'skill cap' and honestly arent having fun anymore, then play another race. A lot of my friends who felt they could not advance and just generally were not having fun did this and began loving the game again. It gave them new challenges, new build orders and a fresh outlook on something they havent experienced. A couple of them even got higher ranks than their 'main' race, which I found humorous. | ||
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Janders
Mexico222 Posts
all are really helpful. | ||
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Drake
Germany6146 Posts
if you really cant step one step ahead, its time to go one back or even more and rebuild your basics from the ground, cause something is going wrong ps: perhaps you NEED help, so ask some master/diamonds to help you STOP watching PRO reaplys PRO streams etc that wont help you. go and watch some diamonds and master replays, its like a 10th league soccer player watch messi and try his tricks, when he should try some tricks from league 3 | ||
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Nihilnovi
Sweden696 Posts
On April 04 2012 18:36 CoR wrote: then your basics are wrong if you really cant step one step ahead, its time to go one back or even more and rebuild your basics from the ground, cause something is going wrong ps: perhaps you NEED help, so ask some master/diamonds to help you STOP watching PRO reaplys PRO streams etc that wont help you. go and watch some diamonds and master replays, its like a 10th league soccer player watch messi and try his tricks, when he should try some tricks from league 3 Pretty much this, you can get masters just by having solid foundations in rts. If you feel stuck at a certain "skill level" and unable to advance no matter what then you are doing something very very wrong. Stop trying to reach for the stars when you can't even catch a butterfly! | ||
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iSTime
1579 Posts
On April 04 2012 18:36 CoR wrote: then your basics are wrong if you really cant step one step ahead, its time to go one back or even more and rebuild your basics from the ground, cause something is going wrong ps: perhaps you NEED help, so ask some master/diamonds to help you STOP watching PRO reaplys PRO streams etc that wont help you. go and watch some diamonds and master replays, its like a 10th league soccer player watch messi and try his tricks, when he should try some tricks from league 3 Watching pro replays >>>> watching diamond/masters replays, even if you're in bronze league. Even if you don't understand everything you are watching, humans are very good at pattern recognition. If you watch 1000 pro games you will have a better understanding of how the game is supposed to flow, where your units are supposed to be, etc. This isn't even to mention the fact that you can learn better specifics such as build orders. | ||
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Sinedd
Poland7052 Posts
you just move it a little higher.. and higher.. | ||
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wajd
240 Posts
On April 04 2012 15:54 doffe wrote: Even so, what is your goal? If you have some sort of serious ambitions about starcraft 2 Id probably lower them by now. Plat for 1.5years almost certinly means that their is no way you can play at the highest level, sorry but thats just how it is. Sadly talent is just as big a part of this game as work ethic. Yes, my goal is to play at a high level, maybe even become pro. But I've already begun to realize, a while ago in fact, it will never happen. Maybe I just don't have that talent or some other skill needed to be really "good" at this game. It's just hard letting go of a dream... | ||
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Falconpauunch
Korea (South)59 Posts
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IIIOmegaIII
Sweden319 Posts
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Cortza
South Africa328 Posts
On April 04 2012 19:24 iSTime wrote: Watching pro replays >>>> watching diamond/masters replays, even if you're in bronze league. Even if you don't understand everything you are watching, humans are very good at pattern recognition. If you watch 1000 pro games you will have a better understanding of how the game is supposed to flow, where your units are supposed to be, etc. This isn't even to mention the fact that you can learn better specifics such as build orders. Sometimes when people watch pro replays, all they see is how shit they are in comparison. Sometimes people need to learn by other ways, like through seeing their peers (people on the same level) teach them interesting moves, which may incidentally have been learned by watching pros do it, but the point is its coming from a player whose skill you can relate to. We all know where the end point is. It's not like we develop only by imitating pro players 24-7. | ||
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Demonaz
United Kingdom1219 Posts
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wajd
240 Posts
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Denzil
United Kingdom4193 Posts
On April 04 2012 19:24 iSTime wrote: Watching pro replays >>>> watching diamond/masters replays, even if you're in bronze league. Even if you don't understand everything you are watching, humans are very good at pattern recognition. If you watch 1000 pro games you will have a better understanding of how the game is supposed to flow, where your units are supposed to be, etc. This isn't even to mention the fact that you can learn better specifics such as build orders. Depends what part we're talking about if you're not in Bronze Silver Gold then yeah pro replays are what you should be looking at, I learned how to play against mech in diamond from watching Violets replays. In Bronze/silver/gold the best thing you can do is just play, learn the metagame of that league and play to it | ||
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