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Orb Dismissed from Evil Geniuses Broadcasts - Page 63

Forum Index > SC2 General
3626 CommentsPost a Reply
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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources.

In short, be smart.

Alex comments on Idra:


Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038

Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST
Zerothegreat
Profile Joined September 2010
United States787 Posts
March 09 2012 06:48 GMT
#1241
I thought the only minority of the SC2 community that isn't 'racist' are the ones that play Random. ^_^
Bleak
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Turkey3059 Posts
March 09 2012 06:48 GMT
#1242
On March 09 2012 15:44 CeroFail wrote:
A caster's career destroyed by the community over rage in a ladder game.


This is what I feel about the issue. TL community loves bitchin.
"I am a beacon of knowledge blazing out across a black sea of ignorance. "
mango_destroyer
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada3914 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-09 06:48:49
March 09 2012 06:48 GMT
#1243
Maybe this will help teach people to be more respectful rather than think they can get away saying what ever they want online. Learn to control that nerd rage. Seriously it isn`t that hard. What goes around comes around.



WesleyLok
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada99 Posts
March 09 2012 06:49 GMT
#1244
Good job EG, I highly respect you for making this move. I hope that other organizations such as NASL and ESV tv that employ orb will also dismiss him.
Keyboard Warrior
Profile Joined December 2011
United States1178 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-09 07:01:33
March 09 2012 06:50 GMT
#1245
On March 09 2012 12:42 ottersareneat wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Disclaimer: this post contains what I suppose could be construed as political views. These are my personal opinions, and while they don't necessarily reflect the opinions of any other EG employee, it would be silly to claim that a CEO's personal opinions don't rub off on his corporate philosophy, at least a little bit.

Back in 2003, a group of well-known Counter-Strike players (mostly White and Asian) decided that it would be fun to masquerade as an African-American Counter-Strike team. They created fake names, used fake profile pictures, and proceeded to compete in an entire season of league play while pretending to be African-American. When the players were finally exposed, the Counter-Strike community reacted to the incident with more amusement than anything else, and I - an avid member of the CS community at that time - was shocked and offended. I expressed my shock and disappointment in an op-ed, which was received somewhat controversially. While I was disappointed enough in the community's initial reaction to the incident, I was even more disappointed at its reaction to my comments. It was extremely disheartening to witness the cultural values, or lack thereof, being displayed by my peers.

Almost ten years later, I am a proud member of the StarCraft community, a culture which I find to be far more intelligent, conscious, and respectful than the Counter-Strike community was in 2003. And, while what I'm about to say may be odd to hear, given that EG's sponsors have been bombarded with complaints from StarCraft fans and players over the past 24 hours, I can say with complete honesty and sincerity that
I have never been prouder to call myself a member of the StarCraft community than I am at this moment. I'll explain why further down in this write-up, but first, bear with me as I offer some context.

My undergraduate degree is in Black Studies, Sociology, and Social Justice. And, while I'll never claim to understand what life is like from the perspective of anyone other than a straight, White guy, I'd like to think that I have a pretty solid academic understanding of how race and racism function in contemporary society. My own credentials aside, I think it's really important to point out that racism today is not what it once was; not in the sense that it is any less widespread, or that it has any less of an impact on people's lives, but rather, in the sense that it functions very differently today compared to how it functioned twenty, thirty, forty, or more, years ago.

Take, for example, the term "racist," which I think is a rather antiquated word, and one that's been injected with so much hyperbolic meaning and stigma over the years that it is now almost entirely devoid of any actual, useful meaning. Traditionally, using the term "racist" in describing a person, action, or statement implies intent, or belief in a racial hierarchy, or belief in the superiority of one race over another. These are the objective criteria standardly utilized in labeling something or someone as being "racist."

But at this point in time, in contemporary society, there are relatively few people (especially compared to how things were in the mid-to-late 20th century) who actually believe in the aforementioned kinds of objectively-racist systems of thought. Aside from White Supremacists and Neo-Nazis (who still very much exist, don't get me wrong), and other extreme examples, most people in our age group just don't believe in that kind of racism. I'd say it's a pretty safe bet that most of the people reading this post were taught that racism is bad, that racial equality is good, and that you shouldn't be racist. The fact is that these days, most people don't think they're racists, and don't want to be identified as being, or doing something racist. And yet, racism still occurs, and we all still say and do things to perpetuate it, whether consciously or unconsciously, intentionally or unintentionally. There's a great book about this sociological issue called "Racism without Racists," and if this kind of subject matter interests you, you'd be wise to check it out.

Anyway, the bottom line is that, despite this change in how we view racism, it's still everywhere. It's still incredibly powerful, and it pervades most - if not all - aspects of our society. It's just, for the most part, much more covert than it was fifty years ago. Nowadays, it usually takes the form of stereotypes and institutional policies, rather than racial slurs and violence. And correspondingly, in my opinion, it has become far too complex to be accurately described by the term "racist." We've all witnessed arguments about whether a particular joke someone made was "racist," or "offensive," or "insensitive." The question I always ask is, are any of these adjectives really accurate or appropriate? I don't think we've developed a functional verbal toolset to appropriately discuss contemporary, covert racism. With this in mind, I try to entirely avoid labeling people as "racist," and I define something as being "racist" only if it plays a functional role in perpetuating racism (for example, I'll call a joke a "racist" joke if it plays on stereotypes, because stereotypes function as the foundational pillars of race and racism).

Now, moving on to points more relevant to the happenings of the past several days, let me be clear: it is my personal opinion that n----- is the ugliest, most repulsive word in the American-English vocabulary. I have never said it, typed it, or written it. If it's used in my presence, I immediately speak up and demand that it not be used again in my presence, regardless of context or circumstances (and for the record, I am equally sensitive about who can and can't say n---a, but that's a different discussion entirely). There are many valid reasons to find the word n----- offensive and repulsive, but for me, the overarching reason is that there is no other word that so efficiently and effectively captures such extreme human injustice and inequality. There is an inherent power dynamic/discrepancy contained within the act of saying the word n-----, and its use sets its subject apart from its object to a greater extent than any other word we have is able to. As such, if you prescribe to my contemporary definition of racism outlined above, there is no more racist word in existence than n-----. By its very nature, it is the essence of absolute racism, in its most extreme form, encapsulated in a noun. In my opinion, with few exceptions, it doesn't matter who says it, to whom, in what context. It's a racist word. If it has a subject and an object, I find its use to be inexcusable - again, with very few exceptions.

In line with this, earlier today, Orb, who had been contracted by EG to anchor our Master's Cup broadcasts, was informed that he has been dismissed of his position and will not be invited back. I apologize to those of you who feel that we took too long to make this decision, but we wanted to make sure the allegations were true before acting, and as recently as 24 hours ago, their validity was still in question (as Scott explained on Live on 3 last night). While Orb's inexcusable comments occurred before he was contracted by EG, and they (of course) did not occur on an EG-affiliated broadcast, neither of these points accounted for our delay in dismissing him. We were never looking for a loophole, here. It didn't matter to us where or when these actions took place. We just wanted to make sure the allegations were true before moving to act and formally parting ways. And, it should go without saying that if we'd ever known that Orb had used such language in the past, or was prone to using such language, we wouldn't have contracted him in the first place.

For the record, I do want to point out that I don't think Orb is "a racist." As mentioned above, I think that to make such a claim would be to misunderstand the nature of contemporary racism. This, of course, does not lessen the severity of his actions, or the extent to which they are unacceptable and inexcusable, but it's still an important distinction to make. As also mentioned above, I think that it's possible to make a racist comment without being a card-carrying Neo-Nazi - the latter is not a necessary condition for the former - and I hope that all of you will consider - whenever it is that you're done expressing your very justifiable outrage - forgiving Orb, if he apologizes sufficiently. While no amount of penance will land him back at the EG broadcast desk, he's a very talented caster, and I hope that he learns from this experience and eventually rebounds from the trouble he's gotten himself into.

In many ways, a culture's icons reflect its core set of values. Being granted celebrity status, and being allowed to represent an entire community, or a portion of a community - these are privileges only given to individuals with whom said community identifies and whose perceived values said community respects. I mentioned at the beginning of this post how disappointed I was in the Counter-Strike community back in 2003, because the community still allowed that team of players to retain its celebrity/icon status, even after their true identities and transgressions were exposed. Their actions violated my core values, and as such, I felt that they should be publicly condemned, and have their celebrity status revoked. The majority of the community, however, felt the exact opposite, and further celebrated the team for their behavior. Based on this, I came to the conclusion that the community's cultural values were not in line with mine, and that was a disheartening realization for me.

However, almost ten years later, as I also mentioned at the beginning of this (very long) post, I've never been prouder to be a part of the StarCraft community (or of any gaming community) than I am at this very moment. And I feel this way because, despite the fact that you guys have been peppering my sponsors with complaints*, your outrage shows me that we do have a set of core values (one of which is that racism isn't acceptable), and we expect our icons and celebrities to share those values; otherwise, they won't be our icons and celebrities any longer.

The eSports industry, and especially some of its respective communities, still have a lot growing up to do before they're truly ready to become mainstream. Just a few weeks ago, we saw the fighting game community at the heart of some major controversy because its culture seemed to condone overt sexism and sexual harassment; these forms of discrimination, in fact, were cited by many members of the FGC as part of what makes fighting game culture what it is. In that regard, the FGC revealed the immaturity of its cultural values, and showed that it still has a lot of growing up to do.

I think we all already knew, prior to this incident, that the StarCraft community was one of the more mature gaming communities out there, but it's still refreshing and encouraging to see that maturity reinforced by how (most of) you guys have reacted over the past few days. I urge you to continue to stand up for what you think is right, and help make this community a safe, comfortable space for everyone.

I can say, with unwavering certainty, on behalf of everyone at EG, that we are absolutely, 100% committed to doing our part to achieve those goals.

...Now, I just wish you guys would also get this upset when people use the word f----t, so that we could start fighting homophobia, too, and show people that it, like racism, also doesn't belong in our community .

Sincerely,

Alexander Garfield
CEO, Evil Geniuses
@ottersareneat on Twittrr

*For those of you who complained to our sponsors: if you're satisfied with what I've written here, please re-contact them to let them know you're happy with us - really, please do it.

For those of you who didn't initially complain, but are satisfied with this post nonetheless, I'd also ask that you contact our sponsors to let them know you support us.

I would also ask that, in the future, if you're unhappy with something that happens in eSports, you guys give the offending party a chance to respond and/or act before seeking vigilante justice via contacting said party's sponsors.

In this case, I promptly informed everyone that we'd be issuing a statement and were taking the matter seriously, but some of you still decided to contact out sponsors before hearing me out. I don't think that's fair. Please try to be more patient in the future. It's hard enough to bring sponsors into eSports as it is - we as an industry don't need angry, pitchfork-wielding mobs making that task any more difficult .


Let's at least be honest here:

1. This "black studies" race and social justice preamble is unnecessary and insincere. Call it for what it really is: there is a business that had to be protected here, and firing orb was the "reasonable" least-amount-of-conflict decision for business.
2. Did EG not know orb is known to BM in ladder BEFORE they hired him knowing that they'd justify firing people (orb in this case) for such?
3. Was EG right to kick him? YES. EG has the right to do anything it wants to run its business
4. What about the team members (Incontrol, Idra, and Huk) who has well-documented cases of throwing out racial and homophobic slurs? Again, EG can do anything it wants with its business, but after knowing that the CEO went to such great length to belabor upon social justice and racism, I can't help but think of hipocrisy. Just edit out the pontification in the OP and write a generic "We have decided that our core interests and beliefs are not parallel/It is not to the best interest of both parties to continue the contract/etc". Moreover, this "if you're satisfied with what I've written here, please re-contact them to let them know you're happy with us" is such a sad and distasteful attempt to do business. You can damage control all you wnt, but now you want TLers and random people in the net to prompt up your business? Come on dude! What about the justice and the values you were talking about?
5. What about orb? Well that is a tough lesson in real life (interwebs-powered) mate. I doubt even if he admitted to his mistake he could have saved his job. He was the weak "dispensible" element in the equation, EG had to make a decision and he was the easiest one. And never anger a mob, an anonymous one at that.

Anyway, it's been sometime since there was SC2 drama. I hope this becomes an opportunity for everyone to grow.
Not your regular Keyboard Warrior ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Douillos
Profile Joined May 2010
France3195 Posts
March 09 2012 06:50 GMT
#1246
I really don think the community is mature enough to discuss these matters and that the thread should be closed before really ugly stuff starts showing up cause of pure fanboy-ism or worse.

For me, less bm = better community. You can kick out all of them, Idra included out of the community. Don't understand how giving the image of a bad boy still gets you somewhere. Especially behind fuckin computer screens.
Look a giraffe! Look a fist!!
PolskaGora
Profile Joined May 2011
United States547 Posts
March 09 2012 06:51 GMT
#1247
I agree with this decision, not because Orb used the n-word, but because he knowingly lied to the company who supported him. I personally don't think Orb should have been barred from EG simply for use of the n-word, although let me clarify I also believe racism has absolutely no place in SC2, or any eSport for that matter. Though I'm glad to see that at least I share some common beliefs with EG.
Tracking treasure down
robm
Profile Joined November 2011
United States56 Posts
March 09 2012 06:52 GMT
#1248
Truly well said, Alex. Thank you for that. I hope as many members of the community as possible understand the significance of all that you said.
BlazeFury01
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1460 Posts
March 09 2012 06:52 GMT
#1249
On March 09 2012 15:35 jester- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 15:29 viticuss wrote:
On March 09 2012 15:25 Argolis wrote:
On March 09 2012 15:20 viticuss wrote:
On March 09 2012 15:19 sharky246 wrote:
how come idra gets exemption from offensive language but not orb?


n--r != faggot. If you're non-american you may not understand but thats the plain truth of it here.


You know you can type the whole word ou, especially if you are gonna type out the word faggot right next to it.. Saying shit like n---r is rather pointless don't you think? Everyone knows what word you are saying yet you somehow try to hide it. The reason the word nigger has so much "power" is because of people like you who treat the word like it's the most offensive word in the worldm when it has no qualities that make it any different than any other slur or insult. it's an offensive word. Stop treating it like it's any different than the rest of them.


That's so phony. We only feel like we have lisence to somehow unempower it because we are on a anonymous predominantly white forum.

It's a tired example but if it's really "just an insult" then I suggest you head to the south side of chicago, hang out down on 90th street and call someone the n word when they do something stupid.

Quit pretending we can just hide behind the internet our whole lives.


You don't understand the situation then, period. There is a CLEAR and EASILY understandable difference between calling some anonymous person on the internet a nigger versus going to the south side of chicago, walking up to someone and calling them a nigger.

We aren't hiding behind anything, some people here just realize that there is a difference between hateful intent and nerd raging.


Did you seriously just write that? lol stupid...

Anyway, there's no difference between when and where your using the word. The words sole creation was based on disrespect; regarding a person of a certain race. There are no variations to the word once you add the "er". There's only one definition for the word and overtime people have tried to make up definitions for it so they could have an excuse for using it when their inner racist comes out (ex: Destiny).

Some people say the word could be to describe someone who is disrespectful regardless of race. But, I highly doubt when enslaved african-americans were labeled such a radical name that they earned it by being "disrespectful". It's a pure hate word and I encourage anybody using it to walk up to somebody who's african american and say it to their face.

User was warned for this post
GunPaladin
Profile Joined September 2011
United States1205 Posts
March 09 2012 06:53 GMT
#1250
From the other thread, it's not so much that orb used the word as it is about him lying to EG about it.
The doctors gave me 9 months to live, ]BIG[ gave me a life time.
RezChi
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Canada2368 Posts
March 09 2012 06:53 GMT
#1251
Who's orb again?
Gentso
Profile Joined July 2010
United States2218 Posts
March 09 2012 06:54 GMT
#1252
On March 09 2012 15:48 Bleak wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 15:44 CeroFail wrote:
A caster's career destroyed by the community over rage in a ladder game.


This is what I feel about the issue. TL community loves bitchin.


And overreacting. Orb's only been dismissed from EG, that's not stopping him from casting literally everywhere else. Apparently he still has a great deal of fans, his SC2 casting career isn't over.
jester-
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Canada547 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-09 06:57:47
March 09 2012 06:55 GMT
#1253
On March 09 2012 15:44 JackDT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 15:32 jester- wrote:
I'm honestly taken aback by how offended everyone appears to be over a word that lost it's true, hateful meaning to 95% of the worlds population decades ago.


Given that you've seen evidence of many people being offended, will you revise your estimate that 95% of the worlds population lost the hateful meaning decades ago and adjust future usage to take this into account?


Nope, because every single offended person is knee jerk over reacting.

Orb finding out the guy he's playing is black and proceeding to throw out derogatory terms as a result? Yeah, that's racism and using the word with hateful intent.

Orb nerd raging and tossing out random curses before walking away from his computer? That's just a pissed off nerd.

I bet you for every time he said the word nigger, he said the word faggot or dip shit or fuck face or something similar a hundred times. It's not a matter of trying to insult or demean black people, it's just a person getting pissed and throwing out curses.

Ever heard someone hit themselves on the finger with a hammer (or similar situation) and yell out; "FUCKING COCK SUCKING..."

Oh call the reddit police, he's demeaning gay people.

Please.
Arise, chicken sandwich.
BlazeFury01
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States1460 Posts
March 09 2012 06:55 GMT
#1254
On March 09 2012 15:53 GunPaladin wrote:
From the other thread, it's not so much that orb used the word as it is about him lying to EG about it.


No, it's both. Alex clearly said that if they knew Orb had said the word previously, they wouldn't have hired him to begin with.
WniO
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2706 Posts
March 09 2012 06:55 GMT
#1255
kinda frustrating trying to find out what happened in this situation since there is no summary, had to go to the closed threads just to see the screenshots and where orb denied it.
i think this is a good thing that he is made an example of, since he is a caster. i mean look at pro sports where that writer got fired for writing "chink in armor." some words are just a no zone for writers/commentators. thats just common sense.
Kwidowmaker
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
Canada978 Posts
March 09 2012 06:55 GMT
#1256
On March 09 2012 15:01 Rekrul wrote:
i'm glad ottersareneat randomly let us know he was straight in this post, a lot of people were wondering


iceburn

wait no
Kk.
Empirimancer
Profile Joined July 2011
Canada1024 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-09 07:00:14
March 09 2012 06:56 GMT
#1257
On March 09 2012 15:41 Zorkmid wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 15:32 Empirimancer wrote:
On March 09 2012 14:57 H0bgawblin wrote:
On March 09 2012 14:49 Empirimancer wrote:
Wonderful! Now every public figure in the SC2 community that's not self-employed will have to carefully control his language, not just in situations where's he's expected to act professionally, but also when he's just laddering for his own enjoyment. Soon enough being a public SC2 figure will be like being a politician, everything they do will be scrutinized for signs of immoral behavior.

Yes, racist and homophobic language is disgusting. No, firing someone over the use of said disgusting language outside of his job is not a good idea. Is this the SC2 scene you people really want to create?

Orb is obviously a lying little shit, and I personally wouldn't want to work with someone like him, and EG has obviously been subjected to enormous pressure to fire him, so I don't really blame them, but this era of enforced political correctness that's beginning to dawn upon SC2 professional gaming is just sickening.



Serious question here. You don't think that some pressures on sc2 public figures aren't needed for it to grow as an e-sport?



Nope. I doubt there's a single person on this planet who would have started watching SC2 tournaments but didn't because and only because s/he's heard a caster or player use a racial slur. If there's something that's holding SC2 back, that's not it.


SC2 needs corporate sponsors at least as much as viewers....companies care when their employees act like idiots, even if a large chunk of the viewership doesn't.



Sponsors don't really care about what their employees say. They only care about the paying customers' reactions to what their employees say. No one says much when Idra calls people faggots or queers on his stream, so neither do the sponsors. People make a huge thing of Orb using racist language while he's laddering, so the sponsors react accordingly (or at least, EG expected them to). And that's the whole point: If we, the paying customers, don't want the sponsors to exert pressure on the teams, we shouldn't exert our own pressure on them, and calm the fuck down.


On March 09 2012 15:40 Douillos wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 15:32 Empirimancer wrote:

Nope. I doubt there's a single person on this planet who would have started watching SC2 tournaments but didn't because and only because s/he's heard a caster or player use a racial slur. If there's something that's holding SC2 back, that's not it.



Well if you ever think that sc2 should grow out of the web based media and go into the wide stream, like bw in Korea, well then you should change your mind. Such short sighted vision...


Yes, clearly one of main things that are keeping SC2 from achieving mainstream status is casters and players using racial slurs in their private life. It has nothing to do with, say, the belief that video games are for nerds, or the fact that most players and casters look, act, and sound like nerds.

If you want SC2 to become truly mainstream outside of Korea, you won't just need to police the language of its public figures, you'll need to fire most of them, because most of them are nerds, and nerds are not mainstream.

Say goodbye to Artosis...
Krallman
Profile Joined February 2011
Sweden713 Posts
March 09 2012 06:57 GMT
#1258
Very good decision, props to EG!
Im better than Stefan
Telcontar
Profile Joined May 2010
United Kingdom16710 Posts
March 09 2012 07:00 GMT
#1259
Understandable decision from EG. I hope everyone can just move on.
Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta.
Heston
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada18 Posts
March 09 2012 07:00 GMT
#1260
On March 09 2012 15:55 jester- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 09 2012 15:44 JackDT wrote:
On March 09 2012 15:32 jester- wrote:
I'm honestly taken aback by how offended everyone appears to be over a word that lost it's true, hateful meaning to 95% of the worlds population decades ago.


Given that you've seen evidence of many people being offended, will you revise your estimate that 95% of the worlds population lost the hateful meaning decades ago and adjust future usage to take this into account?


Nope, because every single offended person is knee jerk over reacting to usage of the word that does not follow the hateful nature of the word I mentioned.

Orb finding out the guy he's playing is black and proceeding to throw out derogatory terms as a result? Yeah, that's racism and using the word with hateful intent.

Orb nerd raging and tossing out random curses before walking away from his computer? That's just a pissed off nerd.

I bet you for every time he said the word nigger, he said the word faggot or dip shit or fuck face or something similar a hundred times. It's not a matter of trying to insult or demean black people, it's just a person getting pissed and throwing out curses.

Ever heard someone hit themselves on the finger with a hammer (or similar situation) and yell out; "FUCKING COCK SUCKING..."

Oh call the reddit police, he's demeaning gay people.

Please.

We have legislation in our country against people discriminating on others on terms of race, do you think someone in the media could use the word nigger in the same context orb did and say something along the lines "Oh by dumb nigger I only meant dumb person" would be a suitable excuse to not lose your job? Or on that matter do you think you would be able to get away with even saying nigger in any sort of context infront of the supreme court?
I Know Chicken
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