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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
orb should know better. end of story.
lesson to you younger folk out there.
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On March 10 2012 07:57 SeraKuDA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 07:16 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote:
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem. If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning). Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here. Times have changed in the sense that the words don't have the same connotation to them. None of us grew up during slavery, and only our parents, and grandparents have a real understanding of what it was like to live in a very racist era. This is a new time, new generation, and our culture is diversified. The words don't carry the same weight they once did, and thus when spoken people generally aren't offended. It's the select few, the sensitive ones, that cry out over the use of them. Those people are the problem-starters.
You know what? Fuck you and people like you who willfully remain grossly ignorant of the world in which we live. Try growing up as a minority. We have a very real understanding of what it's like to grow up in a very racist era. Would you like an example?
When my family went to a restaurant during pride week in my city my father would not go to the bathroom by himself because "he didn't want the faggots doing anything to him in there." I am not being overly sensitive. I am reacting to a word that is regularly thrown in my face with hatred and vitriol.
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On March 10 2012 08:07 Phanekim wrote:
orb should know better. end of story.
lesson to you younger folk out there.
Welcome to the real world Orb
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On March 10 2012 08:05 threshy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 08:01 sam!zdat wrote:On March 10 2012 07:57 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:52 sam!zdat wrote:On March 10 2012 07:33 Zaros wrote:On March 10 2012 07:30 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 07:26 Soma Cruz wrote:On March 10 2012 07:16 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote:
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem. If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning). Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here. As time goes on, words begin to change. Like faggot. It used to be a bundle of sticks, then it's a word for gay people, now people also use it synonymously with other insults. It really boggles my mind how people here (which are mostly suburban white dudes) get offended over a straight word. It really boggles my mine how heterosexual people think their in a position to say whether or not faggot is an offensive word. agreed lol It's because they've made some preliminary philosophical discoveries about how signifiers are not externally motivated and apply in arbitrary fashion to their signifieds, don't examine this discovery in any rigorous fashion and conclude "words mean whatever man" and use this as an excuse not to examine their own actions and/or the social power of language. It's pathetic. You're giving a transparently post-hoc rationalization borne directly out of cognitive dissonance far too much credit. (Though I don't blame you for wanting to believe these people are capable of more.) What? I'm not giving these people any credit, I'm calling them fools. They explicitly make the arbitrariness of signifiers argument in their blatherings, although they don't know enough to call it that. Sorry if I seemed combative. I disagree with you only to the extent that you think these people are thinking this through at all. I don't think there's any kernel of an idea under their arguments except "I can't be accountable for this." Otherwise I've generally enjoyed your posts in this thread, so, again, sorry!
NP I was just confused :D
There's generally two camps of apologists. The first are the basements dwellers and the second are the people who try to pursue the "if you are offended you give the word power" line, which is total bs. I'm referring to the second camp here.
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On March 10 2012 08:07 Phanekim wrote:
orb should know better. end of story.
lesson to you younger folk out there.
He should've known not to do anything before getting hired because people can and will fire you for shit you did long before you worked for them.
Edit: I meant to be sarcastic here but the wording absolutely failed.
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On March 10 2012 08:09 iloveAthene wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 08:07 Phanekim wrote:
orb should know better. end of story.
lesson to you younger folk out there. Welcome to the real world Orb
Yep. Don't ever make a mistake of any kind that could offend anyone of any social or ethnic group ever. You'll lose your job even if you did it before you got it.
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On March 10 2012 08:07 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 07:57 SeraKuDA wrote:On March 10 2012 07:16 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote:
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem. If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning). Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here. Times have changed in the sense that the words don't have the same connotation to them. None of us grew up during slavery, and only our parents, and grandparents have a real understanding of what it was like to live in a very racist era. This is a new time, new generation, and our culture is diversified. The words don't carry the same weight they once did, and thus when spoken people generally aren't offended. It's the select few, the sensitive ones, that cry out over the use of them. Those people are the problem-starters. You know what? Fuck you and people like you who willfully remain grossly ignorant of the world in which we live. Try growing up as a minority. We have a very real understanding of what it's like to grow up in a very racist era. Would you like an example? When my family went to a restaurant during pride week in my city my father would not go to the bathroom by himself because "he didn't want the faggots doing anything to him in there." I am not being overly sensitive. I am reacting to a word that is regularly thrown in my face with hatred and vitriol.
If you legitimately believe that nigger means the same thing today that it did 20 years ago you're completely lost.
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On March 10 2012 08:06 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 07:30 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 07:26 Soma Cruz wrote:On March 10 2012 07:16 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote:
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem. If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning). Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here. As time goes on, words begin to change. Like faggot. It used to be a bundle of sticks, then it's a word for gay people, now people also use it synonymously with other insults. It really boggles my mind how people here (which are mostly suburban white dudes) get offended over a straight word. It really boggles my mine how heterosexual people think they're in a position to say whether or not faggot is an offensive word. THANK YOU. The lengths that people on this board have gone to rationalize -- what, being an anti-social teenage jackass? -- just so they can avoid the social consequences of knowingly being obscene or offensive is HI-LAR-IOUS.
You don't have to be anything to have an opinion about something.
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On March 10 2012 08:05 Covariance wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 07:46 Abrafred wrote:
That was well said Mr. Garfield. Days like these make me proud to be a good Christian.
He got what he deserved for having said n------ once in the past. What on earth does being a good christian have anything to do with it? Do you think you're somehow more ethical than me on the basis of subscribing to an arbitrary religious belief?
Don't feed the trolls.
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On March 10 2012 08:11 Megabuster123 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 08:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 07:57 SeraKuDA wrote:On March 10 2012 07:16 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote:
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem. If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning). Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here. Times have changed in the sense that the words don't have the same connotation to them. None of us grew up during slavery, and only our parents, and grandparents have a real understanding of what it was like to live in a very racist era. This is a new time, new generation, and our culture is diversified. The words don't carry the same weight they once did, and thus when spoken people generally aren't offended. It's the select few, the sensitive ones, that cry out over the use of them. Those people are the problem-starters. You know what? Fuck you and people like you who willfully remain grossly ignorant of the world in which we live. Try growing up as a minority. We have a very real understanding of what it's like to grow up in a very racist era. Would you like an example? When my family went to a restaurant during pride week in my city my father would not go to the bathroom by himself because "he didn't want the faggots doing anything to him in there." I am not being overly sensitive. I am reacting to a word that is regularly thrown in my face with hatred and vitriol. If you legitimately believe that nigger means the same thing today that it did 20 years ago you're completely lost.
If you legitimately believe that you're in a position to understand what nigger means then you should never be given a platform from which to speak.
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On March 10 2012 08:11 Megabuster123 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 08:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 07:57 SeraKuDA wrote:On March 10 2012 07:16 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote:
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem. If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning). Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here. Times have changed in the sense that the words don't have the same connotation to them. None of us grew up during slavery, and only our parents, and grandparents have a real understanding of what it was like to live in a very racist era. This is a new time, new generation, and our culture is diversified. The words don't carry the same weight they once did, and thus when spoken people generally aren't offended. It's the select few, the sensitive ones, that cry out over the use of them. Those people are the problem-starters. You know what? Fuck you and people like you who willfully remain grossly ignorant of the world in which we live. Try growing up as a minority. We have a very real understanding of what it's like to grow up in a very racist era. Would you like an example? When my family went to a restaurant during pride week in my city my father would not go to the bathroom by himself because "he didn't want the faggots doing anything to him in there." I am not being overly sensitive. I am reacting to a word that is regularly thrown in my face with hatred and vitriol. If you legitimately believe that nigger means the same thing today that it did 20 years ago you're completely lost.
It doesn't have to mean the same thing in order to still be off limits.
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On March 10 2012 08:12 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 08:11 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 10 2012 08:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 07:57 SeraKuDA wrote:On March 10 2012 07:16 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote:
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem. If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning). Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here. Times have changed in the sense that the words don't have the same connotation to them. None of us grew up during slavery, and only our parents, and grandparents have a real understanding of what it was like to live in a very racist era. This is a new time, new generation, and our culture is diversified. The words don't carry the same weight they once did, and thus when spoken people generally aren't offended. It's the select few, the sensitive ones, that cry out over the use of them. Those people are the problem-starters. You know what? Fuck you and people like you who willfully remain grossly ignorant of the world in which we live. Try growing up as a minority. We have a very real understanding of what it's like to grow up in a very racist era. Would you like an example? When my family went to a restaurant during pride week in my city my father would not go to the bathroom by himself because "he didn't want the faggots doing anything to him in there." I am not being overly sensitive. I am reacting to a word that is regularly thrown in my face with hatred and vitriol. If you legitimately believe that nigger means the same thing today that it did 20 years ago you're completely lost. If you legitimately believe that you're in a position to understand what nigger means then you should never be given a platform from which to speak.
I'm half black, I've been called a nigger in my life. Just because I'm on starcraft forum doesn't mean I'm a white guy. Which for some reason every single caster says without any criticism because if you're talking about white people you can't be racist.
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This seems totally hypocritical. Like....completely hypocritical. I've seen YouTube videos of IdrA on EG where he calls people "abusive little faggots", and I've also seen HuK use the word "nigger" on his stream (although the context for this was much different, I agree)...so why didn't anything happen with this?
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On March 10 2012 08:11 Megabuster123 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 08:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 07:57 SeraKuDA wrote:On March 10 2012 07:16 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote:
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem. If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning). Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here. Times have changed in the sense that the words don't have the same connotation to them. None of us grew up during slavery, and only our parents, and grandparents have a real understanding of what it was like to live in a very racist era. This is a new time, new generation, and our culture is diversified. The words don't carry the same weight they once did, and thus when spoken people generally aren't offended. It's the select few, the sensitive ones, that cry out over the use of them. Those people are the problem-starters. You know what? Fuck you and people like you who willfully remain grossly ignorant of the world in which we live. Try growing up as a minority. We have a very real understanding of what it's like to grow up in a very racist era. Would you like an example? When my family went to a restaurant during pride week in my city my father would not go to the bathroom by himself because "he didn't want the faggots doing anything to him in there." I am not being overly sensitive. I am reacting to a word that is regularly thrown in my face with hatred and vitriol. If you legitimately believe that nigger means the same thing today that it did 20 years ago you're completely lost.
20 years is the blink of an eye. You have no perspective at all.
edit: I might agree if you said 100 years
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Panama57 Posts
Personally I think this focus on nigger as poster-word of discrimination and such is pretty ridiculous.
As a Panamanian/Soviet (it was soviet in my time!) I've been called beaner, spic, mexican (lol?) to my face by black people in Atlanta when I went to the states on vacation in 2003. White guys accelerated their step when I was trying to ask for directions and one even said something about having no change. Spanish people think I'm a dumb sudaca that lives in trees. Well, americans also frequently think Panamanians live in trees and I still vividly remember the attitude, the looks and disdain of many americans here when they had their bases in my country. I am too dark for ukranians, too gringo-looking for panamanians, too puertoricany for americans, etc. etc. This is to my face, online? just multiply that by a large number. As an atheist I have also no shortage of hate directed towards me from every sort of religious variation.
My point is, *people*, human beings all over the world sure love their racism, their labels, their regionalism and especially their discrimination. The labels and such are the excuse to treat someone in a certain way. More on topic: All this drama about what that Orb guy said, only makes me think one thing:
Get over yourselves for pete's sake...
Ooo he said nigger. From the reaction I've seen you'd think he made freaking hats out of babies. And people patting themselves in the back, yeah SC2 community so mature, zero tolerance towards intolerance.
Disgusting...
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On March 10 2012 08:12 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 08:11 Megabuster123 wrote:On March 10 2012 08:07 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 07:57 SeraKuDA wrote:On March 10 2012 07:16 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote:
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem. If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning). Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here. Times have changed in the sense that the words don't have the same connotation to them. None of us grew up during slavery, and only our parents, and grandparents have a real understanding of what it was like to live in a very racist era. This is a new time, new generation, and our culture is diversified. The words don't carry the same weight they once did, and thus when spoken people generally aren't offended. It's the select few, the sensitive ones, that cry out over the use of them. Those people are the problem-starters. You know what? Fuck you and people like you who willfully remain grossly ignorant of the world in which we live. Try growing up as a minority. We have a very real understanding of what it's like to grow up in a very racist era. Would you like an example? When my family went to a restaurant during pride week in my city my father would not go to the bathroom by himself because "he didn't want the faggots doing anything to him in there." I am not being overly sensitive. I am reacting to a word that is regularly thrown in my face with hatred and vitriol. If you legitimately believe that nigger means the same thing today that it did 20 years ago you're completely lost. It doesn't have to mean the same thing in order to still be off limits.
It's a word. Some people make a big deal out of it... Me making a noise with my mouth doesn't give you the right to attack me or something. It may bug you, but learn to deal with it because it's just a word that isn't harming you. There's a difference in calling someone a nigger and actually treating them differently because of skin color.
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On March 10 2012 08:09 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 08:05 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 08:01 sam!zdat wrote:On March 10 2012 07:57 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:52 sam!zdat wrote:On March 10 2012 07:33 Zaros wrote:On March 10 2012 07:30 Klondikebar wrote:On March 10 2012 07:26 Soma Cruz wrote:On March 10 2012 07:16 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote:
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem. If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning). Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here. As time goes on, words begin to change. Like faggot. It used to be a bundle of sticks, then it's a word for gay people, now people also use it synonymously with other insults. It really boggles my mind how people here (which are mostly suburban white dudes) get offended over a straight word. It really boggles my mine how heterosexual people think their in a position to say whether or not faggot is an offensive word. agreed lol It's because they've made some preliminary philosophical discoveries about how signifiers are not externally motivated and apply in arbitrary fashion to their signifieds, don't examine this discovery in any rigorous fashion and conclude "words mean whatever man" and use this as an excuse not to examine their own actions and/or the social power of language. It's pathetic. You're giving a transparently post-hoc rationalization borne directly out of cognitive dissonance far too much credit. (Though I don't blame you for wanting to believe these people are capable of more.) What? I'm not giving these people any credit, I'm calling them fools. They explicitly make the arbitrariness of signifiers argument in their blatherings, although they don't know enough to call it that. Sorry if I seemed combative. I disagree with you only to the extent that you think these people are thinking this through at all. I don't think there's any kernel of an idea under their arguments except "I can't be accountable for this." Otherwise I've generally enjoyed your posts in this thread, so, again, sorry! NP I was just confused :D There's generally two camps of apologists. The first are the basements dwellers and the second are the people who try to pursue the "if you are offended you give the word power" line, which is total bs. I'm referring to the second camp here.
Yeah. Those in the second group strike me as simply disingenuous. The argument can't survive even cursory disinterested scrutiny. They're just offering up the nonsense that cognitive dissonance flushes into their heads when confronted with their irreconcilable positions that (1) there is a good reason to be using racist language, but (2) they are not racist. But maybe we're saying the same thing at this point?
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On March 10 2012 08:07 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 07:57 SeraKuDA wrote:On March 10 2012 07:16 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote:
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem. If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning). Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here. Times have changed in the sense that the words don't have the same connotation to them. None of us grew up during slavery, and only our parents, and grandparents have a real understanding of what it was like to live in a very racist era. This is a new time, new generation, and our culture is diversified. The words don't carry the same weight they once did, and thus when spoken people generally aren't offended. It's the select few, the sensitive ones, that cry out over the use of them. Those people are the problem-starters. You know what? Fuck you and people like you who willfully remain grossly ignorant of the world in which we live. Try growing up as a minority. We have a very real understanding of what it's like to grow up in a very racist era. Would you like an example? When my family went to a restaurant during pride week in my city my father would not go to the bathroom by himself because "he didn't want the faggots doing anything to him in there." I am not being overly sensitive. I am reacting to a word that is regularly thrown in my face with hatred and vitriol.
Brb insulting half of the posters in this thread as they try to explain why they have nothing against you.Nice double standard. Makes sense. I get why you react, it makes sense why you'd have an emotional response, but nevertheless, you have no grounds to really be angry on a reasonable level with someone who spouts the word "faggot" when they're mad, assuming you don't have the same objections when anyone insults anyone using any words. Insulting people is always bad. Always. But it's not worse just because you picked a particular word (unless, of course, you're using words which specifically target the person in question's ethnic/whatever background).
My position is as follows: insulting people is always bad. Insulting minorities using racist terms specifically targeted at that minority is worse because it's deliberate hate speech. Using a racist/bigoted term to insult someone generically is, to me, no worse than insulting them in general; that is, it's immoral because you're still degrading the person, but it's not especially immoral just because you picked a word that would be a hate crime if you said it to someone else. If you are mad about Orb's words, you should be equally offended every time someone says "you're a fucking piece of shit I hope you die" in a ladder game, because that's just as malicious. It just doesn't strike a chord with as many people.
Basically, I don't think the number of people something offends necessarily makes it more immoral.
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I'm pretty sure orb meant to say negus
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EPT
