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Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources. In short, be smart. Alex comments on Idra: Orbs Statement: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=319038Personal attacks against other posters in this thread will be met with a ban -- 14:20 KST |
On March 10 2012 06:51 blackone wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 06:49 Thrombozyt wrote:
Now don't get me wrong, I don't condone the raging and insulting. It's amazing how you still don't get that this is not about raging or insulting. I hope you're not too succesful with your fight for racism in europe.
Read the post your quoting from. I think it's just about the cash.
And way to go to infer I'm fighting for racism. Let me just play the same game:
Guess you'll be at least a group leader, when the PC fascism takes over - you have the right mentality.
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On March 10 2012 06:48 SnuggleZhenya wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 06:46 INTOtheVOID wrote:
People are still talking about this? o.O Some of you are pathetic, WHO CARES what someone said during a ladder match. The fact that a thread like this gets over 100 pages of replies when threads showing major tournament results reach half that show what this community really thrives on: random ass drama. The sc2 community is quickly progressing to LoL state. Honestly at this point I'm far more offended by the ignorance in this thread than I ever was at anything Orb said.
Way to bring up logical points instead of whining. Oh wait.
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 10 2012 06:51 Alpha Plague wrote:
"I can't claim to be well-versed in modern racism; but what I can contribute is the experience of an undergraduate degree in philosophy, and some budding graduate work in the field of race and racism in ancient history. And it is my firm belief, at least, that a word *cannot* be "inherently" anything.
It's true that certain words carry a good deal of cultural baggage. "Racist slurs" are easily capable of offending a great many people, just as "swears" or "curse words" are. But I see no reason to ascribe any kind of greater deal of severity to racist slurs than any other word that could be construed a offensive, none at all. I would claim that "faggot" or "fuck" are *equally* as offensive as the word "nigger" - and that is to say, they are not inherently offensive at all.
Anyone who is offended by the usage of any of the above word has every right to ask they not be used in their prescence. But they do not - they *can* not - be said to be inherently offensive. If one is a paragon of tolerance, they could say things like "faggot" or 'nigger" as many times as they like - even just to prove a point - and it would *not* make them intolerant. No word has any inherent meaning, offensive or otherwise. The string of sounds that makes up any word is only a string of sounds. We deduce the meanings of the words others use based on context, and context alone.
"Nigger" is a word, as I've said, that carries significant cultural baggage. As does "faggot." So it must be recognized that the words' weight, and their weight alone, would justify its use; one can call someone a "faggot" simply to get across any strong negative emotion, be it disdain, annoyance, or anger. This is not necessarily something I would condone, but the point is, *that* usage of the word carries *little to no connotation of homosexuality.*
The point being, saying the word nigger cannot make one a racist on its own. That doesn't make what happened with Orb any "better;" one could say it was stupid to make such a comment, *knowing* that the present cultural climate would cause him to be labelled as a racist. But *that's* exactly the problem I'm trying to address here.
What one *says* means nothing; what one *means* means everything. If you say "nigger" in a racist context, you're probably a racist. If you say "nigger" in a non-racist context, it has nothing to do with intolerance. A word *can't* have inherent connotations. Think about it.
(Of course, when I say words have no inherent meaning, I'm not saying words have no *common* meaning; to say a "door" likely means you're referring to a door. But it's also possible that the word "door" could be a label for a certain type of drug, with no relation to the common term. Thus, it's possible to use the word "door" without referring to its common meaning at all; and the same applies to any word that could be construed as "offensive." One should never take anything at face value.)"
What my more articulate friend had to say on the issue. As I said before, I think this whole thing reflects very poorly on the SC2 Community. Not that we should tolerate bad behaviour, but our actions in regards to it was childish at best.
My thoughts exactly, just much more eloquently stated.
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On March 10 2012 06:51 Alpha Plague wrote:
"I can't claim to be well-versed in modern racism; but what I can contribute is the experience of an undergraduate degree in philosophy, and some budding graduate work in the field of race and racism in ancient history. And it is my firm belief, at least, that a word *cannot* be "inherently" anything.
It's true that certain words carry a good deal of cultural baggage. "Racist slurs" are easily capable of offending a great many people, just as "swears" or "curse words" are. But I see no reason to ascribe any kind of greater deal of severity to racist slurs than any other word that could be construed a offensive, none at all. I would claim that "faggot" or "fuck" are *equally* as offensive as the word "nigger" - and that is to say, they are not inherently offensive at all.
Anyone who is offended by the usage of any of the above word has every right to ask they not be used in their prescence. But they do not - they *can* not - be said to be inherently offensive. If one is a paragon of tolerance, they could say things like "faggot" or 'nigger" as many times as they like - even just to prove a point - and it would *not* make them intolerant. No word has any inherent meaning, offensive or otherwise. The string of sounds that makes up any word is only a string of sounds. We deduce the meanings of the words others use based on context, and context alone.
"Nigger" is a word, as I've said, that carries significant cultural baggage. As does "faggot." So it must be recognized that the words' weight, and their weight alone, would justify its use; one can call someone a "faggot" simply to get across any strong negative emotion, be it disdain, annoyance, or anger. This is not necessarily something I would condone, but the point is, *that* usage of the word carries *little to no connotation of homosexuality.*
The point being, saying the word nigger cannot make one a racist on its own. That doesn't make what happened with Orb any "better;" one could say it was stupid to make such a comment, *knowing* that the present cultural climate would cause him to be labelled as a racist. But *that's* exactly the problem I'm trying to address here.
What one *says* means nothing; what one *means* means everything. If you say "nigger" in a racist context, you're probably a racist. If you say "nigger" in a non-racist context, it has nothing to do with intolerance. A word *can't* have inherent connotations. Think about it.
(Of course, when I say words have no inherent meaning, I'm not saying words have no *common* meaning; to say a "door" likely means you're referring to a door. But it's also possible that the word "door" could be a label for a certain type of drug, with no relation to the common term. Thus, it's possible to use the word "door" without referring to its common meaning at all; and the same applies to any word that could be construed as "offensive." One should never take anything at face value.)"
What my more articulate friend had to say on the issue. As I said before, I think this whole thing reflects very poorly on the SC2 Community. Not that we should tolerate bad behaviour, but our actions in regards to it was childish at best.
There we have it... now you'll be marked a racist, too 
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On March 10 2012 07:16 threshy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote:
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem. If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning). Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here.
As time goes on, words begin to change.
Like faggot. It used to be a bundle of sticks, then it's a word for gay people, now people also use it synonymously with other insults.
It really boggles my mind how people here (which are mostly suburban white dudes) get offended over a straight word.
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On March 10 2012 07:21 Cypher_Brood wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 10 2012 06:51 Alpha Plague wrote:
"I can't claim to be well-versed in modern racism; but what I can contribute is the experience of an undergraduate degree in philosophy, and some budding graduate work in the field of race and racism in ancient history. And it is my firm belief, at least, that a word *cannot* be "inherently" anything.
It's true that certain words carry a good deal of cultural baggage. "Racist slurs" are easily capable of offending a great many people, just as "swears" or "curse words" are. But I see no reason to ascribe any kind of greater deal of severity to racist slurs than any other word that could be construed a offensive, none at all. I would claim that "faggot" or "fuck" are *equally* as offensive as the word "nigger" - and that is to say, they are not inherently offensive at all.
Anyone who is offended by the usage of any of the above word has every right to ask they not be used in their prescence. But they do not - they *can* not - be said to be inherently offensive. If one is a paragon of tolerance, they could say things like "faggot" or 'nigger" as many times as they like - even just to prove a point - and it would *not* make them intolerant. No word has any inherent meaning, offensive or otherwise. The string of sounds that makes up any word is only a string of sounds. We deduce the meanings of the words others use based on context, and context alone.
"Nigger" is a word, as I've said, that carries significant cultural baggage. As does "faggot." So it must be recognized that the words' weight, and their weight alone, would justify its use; one can call someone a "faggot" simply to get across any strong negative emotion, be it disdain, annoyance, or anger. This is not necessarily something I would condone, but the point is, *that* usage of the word carries *little to no connotation of homosexuality.*
The point being, saying the word nigger cannot make one a racist on its own. That doesn't make what happened with Orb any "better;" one could say it was stupid to make such a comment, *knowing* that the present cultural climate would cause him to be labelled as a racist. But *that's* exactly the problem I'm trying to address here.
What one *says* means nothing; what one *means* means everything. If you say "nigger" in a racist context, you're probably a racist. If you say "nigger" in a non-racist context, it has nothing to do with intolerance. A word *can't* have inherent connotations. Think about it.
(Of course, when I say words have no inherent meaning, I'm not saying words have no *common* meaning; to say a "door" likely means you're referring to a door. But it's also possible that the word "door" could be a label for a certain type of drug, with no relation to the common term. Thus, it's possible to use the word "door" without referring to its common meaning at all; and the same applies to any word that could be construed as "offensive." One should never take anything at face value.)"
What my more articulate friend had to say on the issue. As I said before, I think this whole thing reflects very poorly on the SC2 Community. Not that we should tolerate bad behaviour, but our actions in regards to it was childish at best. My thoughts exactly, just much more eloquently stated.
As if orb had no idea about the common meaning of the word when he used it.
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On March 10 2012 07:15 plogamer wrote:
I am appalled at people outright denying any racism in using a word for black person as an insult.
Well the word was always an insult, back in slaveholder history till now.
Using it as an insult is fine....there must be some words for insults....using only as***** gets boring fast.
So the term "nigger" was used. But the fact that it is also used vs anonymous guys on the internet who are most likely white shows that the only intend is to insult, not to make any true comment about race.
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On March 10 2012 07:21 Cypher_Brood wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 10 2012 06:51 Alpha Plague wrote:
"I can't claim to be well-versed in modern racism; but what I can contribute is the experience of an undergraduate degree in philosophy, and some budding graduate work in the field of race and racism in ancient history. And it is my firm belief, at least, that a word *cannot* be "inherently" anything.
It's true that certain words carry a good deal of cultural baggage. "Racist slurs" are easily capable of offending a great many people, just as "swears" or "curse words" are. But I see no reason to ascribe any kind of greater deal of severity to racist slurs than any other word that could be construed a offensive, none at all. I would claim that "faggot" or "fuck" are *equally* as offensive as the word "nigger" - and that is to say, they are not inherently offensive at all.
Anyone who is offended by the usage of any of the above word has every right to ask they not be used in their prescence. But they do not - they *can* not - be said to be inherently offensive. If one is a paragon of tolerance, they could say things like "faggot" or 'nigger" as many times as they like - even just to prove a point - and it would *not* make them intolerant. No word has any inherent meaning, offensive or otherwise. The string of sounds that makes up any word is only a string of sounds. We deduce the meanings of the words others use based on context, and context alone.
"Nigger" is a word, as I've said, that carries significant cultural baggage. As does "faggot." So it must be recognized that the words' weight, and their weight alone, would justify its use; one can call someone a "faggot" simply to get across any strong negative emotion, be it disdain, annoyance, or anger. This is not necessarily something I would condone, but the point is, *that* usage of the word carries *little to no connotation of homosexuality.*
The point being, saying the word nigger cannot make one a racist on its own. That doesn't make what happened with Orb any "better;" one could say it was stupid to make such a comment, *knowing* that the present cultural climate would cause him to be labelled as a racist. But *that's* exactly the problem I'm trying to address here.
What one *says* means nothing; what one *means* means everything. If you say "nigger" in a racist context, you're probably a racist. If you say "nigger" in a non-racist context, it has nothing to do with intolerance. A word *can't* have inherent connotations. Think about it.
(Of course, when I say words have no inherent meaning, I'm not saying words have no *common* meaning; to say a "door" likely means you're referring to a door. But it's also possible that the word "door" could be a label for a certain type of drug, with no relation to the common term. Thus, it's possible to use the word "door" without referring to its common meaning at all; and the same applies to any word that could be construed as "offensive." One should never take anything at face value.)"
What my more articulate friend had to say on the issue. As I said before, I think this whole thing reflects very poorly on the SC2 Community. Not that we should tolerate bad behaviour, but our actions in regards to it was childish at best. My thoughts exactly, just much more eloquently stated.
The problem with the post you quoted is that it's a straw man. This is not a situation where someone said a racist slur incident to analyzing its meaning or something like that. On the contrary, this is a situation where somebody used a racist slur as a racist slur. Orb hoped to injure those on the receiving end of his insult, and he chose racist language to do so because of the especially injurious qualities of that language (he said so himself).
It's just wrong to think the sophistic blather in the post you quoted justifies the use of racist slurs. To the extent that the points made in that post are valid, they're irrelevant (indeed, orthogonal) to the situation under discussion here.
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On March 10 2012 04:54 BradenKuntz wrote:
Holy crap. That is a hard decision to make. I have to give EG props though. While I do generally dislike them (mainly because I'm a huge Liquid supporter), I have to give them huge props for acting very professionally in several different instances now. A very hard decision was made, and I feel like it was the right one. Good job EG. You are helping make eSports one of the best industries in the world.
What was so hard about this decision? They had pressure from their sponsors so they simply gave the new guy the boot. He's barely been there a few weeks, is expendable and is hardly an asset at all, what do they lose by getting rid of him?
A hard decision would be giving their biggest asset Idra the kick because of the consistent prejudiced remarks he made/makes about homosexuals whilst under employment by EG (yes I have read the link at the top, no I don't think giving him a stern talking to his consistent to what they did with Orb). Either EG drew the line and said homophobic slurs are a-ok but racial slurs are intolerable, or they have just decided that Idra's return on investment is worth looking like a hypocrit for.
Again, there was no hard decision to make. Ridding themselves of Orb successfully washes their hands of the problem, and is a much more attractive option to them than the alternative of keeping him on and risking looking like they are condoning his actions.
Very disappointed with how EG acted. I can understand the decision of firing him, but ffs if they really are adopting a zero-tolerance policy for things like this then Idra should have gone long ago.
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Well written.
Mad respect goes out to Alex.
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On March 10 2012 07:26 Soma Cruz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 07:16 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote:
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem. If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning). Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here. As time goes on, words begin to change. Like faggot. It used to be a bundle of sticks, then it's a word for gay people, now people also use it synonymously with other insults. It really boggles my mind how people here (which are mostly suburban white dudes) get offended over a straight word.
It really boggles my mine how heterosexual people think they're in a position to say whether or not faggot is an offensive word.
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EG is Alex's team. His team, his rules. He can fire/hire whoever he wants and for whatever reason. However, I personally think this whole situation is silly. He got angry a year ago, before he was a caster, and called someone a nigger out of anger. So what? He wasn't being racist, he was being mad. Its crazy how people make such harsh accusations based on what was said and not the context. It disgusts me that people for seemingly no reason went out of their way to find this. Its even more disgusting that people are making a big deal out of it without thinking of the context. We've all said things that just come to mind out of anger. In Orb's case he should be judged on his casting career, not his personal game time. He didn't do anything wrong, he just got mad.
It really sucks that racism is so touchy and that people bitched to the sponsors about this when they probably weren't really offended by it, and if they were, why haven't there been complaints to other racial remarks made and even non racial remarks like retard or faggot? These words can be just as offensive and even more so to some people and other people known just as well or more than Orb have said things like this and yet nothing like this has happened to them. Very inconsistent and it makes you wonder was it really because he said nigger? Or was it because of money or personal beliefs or something else? And if it was why didn't Alex just say straight up say so and make it clear? As said before, its his team and he can do what he wants.
I really do feel sorry for Orb and I really hope his future as a caster is not harmed by any of this because that possibility is what really upsets me the most.
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On March 10 2012 07:30 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 07:26 Soma Cruz wrote:On March 10 2012 07:16 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote:
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem. If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning). Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here. As time goes on, words begin to change. Like faggot. It used to be a bundle of sticks, then it's a word for gay people, now people also use it synonymously with other insults. It really boggles my mind how people here (which are mostly suburban white dudes) get offended over a straight word. It really boggles my mine how heterosexual people think their in a position to say whether or not faggot is an offensive word.
agreed lol
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On March 10 2012 07:30 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2012 07:26 Soma Cruz wrote:On March 10 2012 07:16 threshy wrote:On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote:
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem. If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning). Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here. As time goes on, words begin to change. Like faggot. It used to be a bundle of sticks, then it's a word for gay people, now people also use it synonymously with other insults. It really boggles my mind how people here (which are mostly suburban white dudes) get offended over a straight word. It really boggles my mine how heterosexual people think their in a position to say whether or not faggot is an offensive word.
The curious thing is that if it really were "synonymous with other insults," these guys should have no problem giving it up. Instead they cling. It suggests to me that the users of these words are well aware of the special power the words derive from villifying specific disadvantaged groups, and prefer them over other insults for that exact reason.
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Does anyone have a list of EG sponsors that can be contacted per request?
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So what happened
Orb said the N word?
is that it?
I don't want to read over 100 responses or a massive OP i'm just curious
THanks in advance
User was warned for this post
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We're the ones that lose here, people. orb lost his job, but his job was to entertain/inform the community. It's a job I feel like he was pretty good at. Alex made the only decision he could - the sponsers should have never been contacted in the first place, and this is what we get for meddling in their affairs before they had a chance to respond properly.
The one silver lining of all of this is that the next job orb gets, this will all be public knowledge so "unearthing it" won't cost him his job.
All of this talk about whether or not he's racist is completely irrelevant - he either is or isn't and ultimately it doesn't matter. What matters is that there was a business decision to be made because of the circumstances surrounding orb, and the decision has been made. I respect Alex for the decision he made - but I disagree with him turning it into a huge race discussion.
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Funny how rampant hypocrisy is. Guy is such a jerk to strangers in real life but is a fervent defender of abstract and large causes. Put your money where your mouth is.
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the EG guys prob don't really give a shit about that
some people will and from a business standpoint it's a lot better to just kick him out and get done with it
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That was well said Mr. Garfield. Days like these make me proud to be a good Christian.
He got what he deserved for having said n------ once in the past.
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EPT
