Alex is verbose, and you owe it to yourself (and the rest of us) to read the statement in its entirety. Remember, when making comments/claims to provide proper evidence, facts etc. Arguments based on incorrect assumptions, facts and straw men, will be dealt with swiftly. If in doubt, PM a mod or ask IRC. Do NOT spread misinformation, when in doubt, check your sources.
"I can't claim to be well-versed in modern racism; but what I can contribute is the experience of an undergraduate degree in philosophy, and some budding graduate work in the field of race and racism in ancient history. And it is my firm belief, at least, that a word *cannot* be "inherently" anything.
It's true that certain words carry a good deal of cultural baggage. "Racist slurs" are easily capable of offending a great many people, just as "swears" or "curse words" are. But I see no reason to ascribe any kind of greater deal of severity to racist slurs than any other word that could be construed a offensive, none at all. I would claim that "faggot" or "fuck" are *equally* as offensive as the word "nigger" - and that is to say, they are not inherently offensive at all.
Anyone who is offended by the usage of any of the above word has every right to ask they not be used in their prescence. But they do not - they *can* not - be said to be inherently offensive. If one is a paragon of tolerance, they could say things like "faggot" or 'nigger" as many times as they like - even just to prove a point - and it would *not* make them intolerant. No word has any inherent meaning, offensive or otherwise. The string of sounds that makes up any word is only a string of sounds. We deduce the meanings of the words others use based on context, and context alone.
"Nigger" is a word, as I've said, that carries significant cultural baggage. As does "faggot." So it must be recognized that the words' weight, and their weight alone, would justify its use; one can call someone a "faggot" simply to get across any strong negative emotion, be it disdain, annoyance, or anger. This is not necessarily something I would condone, but the point is, *that* usage of the word carries *little to no connotation of homosexuality.*
The point being, saying the word nigger cannot make one a racist on its own. That doesn't make what happened with Orb any "better;" one could say it was stupid to make such a comment, *knowing* that the present cultural climate would cause him to be labelled as a racist. But *that's* exactly the problem I'm trying to address here.
What one *says* means nothing; what one *means* means everything. If you say "nigger" in a racist context, you're probably a racist. If you say "nigger" in a non-racist context, it has nothing to do with intolerance. A word *can't* have inherent connotations. Think about it.
(Of course, when I say words have no inherent meaning, I'm not saying words have no *common* meaning; to say a "door" likely means you're referring to a door. But it's also possible that the word "door" could be a label for a certain type of drug, with no relation to the common term. Thus, it's possible to use the word "door" without referring to its common meaning at all; and the same applies to any word that could be construed as "offensive." One should never take anything at face value.)"
What my more articulate friend had to say on the issue. As I said before, I think this whole thing reflects very poorly on the SC2 Community. Not that we should tolerate bad behaviour, but our actions in regards to it was childish at best.
Having that said, most people probably don't try to offend people on purpose. Plus it seems to mostly be regulated by political correctness, I rarely see dramas when people joke about disabled people or things like adhd for example.
What about jokes about the holocaust or Hitler? Can those just be funny? Violence is encoded in language. The nihilistic internet generation that we're a part of sometimes forgets that and wants to make a joke out of everything, especially the void in their heart.
No, the word "nigger" cannot just be funny. Funny to whom?
On March 10 2012 06:37 threshy wrote: I have a question for those in this thread who are so defensive about being able to use racial and anti-gay slurs: why do those words have so much value to you? You all seem to understand that those words can deeply hurt others in a way that is especially deleterious to society, and some of you even seem to recognize that your use of those words, regardless of your intentions, entails an implicit assertion that others are inferior based on their race or sexual orientation.
Knowing that, why do you persist? Why is it important to you to use those words? I am particularly puzzled in light of the assertion that many of you have made that, when you use these words, you don't mean to communicate anything racist or anti-gay--if you don't want to communicate that stuff, and, indeed, are offended when others think you are racist or homophobic, why do you insist on using the only words that are certain to cause people to receive that meaning from you?
I've got my own ideas about why you guys behave this way, but I'm curious to hear what you think the reasons are.
Actually you're right. Giving so much drama/attention to the simple occurrence of "that word" shows that, in their minds, "racism" is a much bigger deal than it actually is/should be. In fact, the way this is handled gives way more weight to the whole race thing than ever intended. doom loop!
what a peaceful world we would live in, if one could say a word without another one being offended right away.
I don't follow, except that I'm pretty sure you misunderstood me.
If you're someone who likes to use racial or homophobic slurs, would you mind explaining why you do it?
What about jokes about the holocaust or Hitler? Can those just be funny? Violence is encoded in language. The nihilistic internet generation that we're a part of sometimes forgets that and wants to make a joke out of everything, especially the void in their heart.
No, the word "nigger" cannot just be funny. Funny to whom?
It's obviously funny to a lot of people, since that's a popular episode of South Park that mocks people who get offended over words too easily.
Why can't it be funny? There's this thing, uh... Context? Yes yes.
But what is funny about the desperate use of racist language to hurt others? There's certainly nothing clever or witty about what Orb said, so could you explain what part of it amuses you? Is it just the titillation of a taboo being violated?
What about jokes about the holocaust or Hitler? Can those just be funny? Violence is encoded in language. The nihilistic internet generation that we're a part of sometimes forgets that and wants to make a joke out of everything, especially the void in their heart.
No, the word "nigger" cannot just be funny. Funny to whom?
Or people can let shit go. Everything can be funny eventually. The overblown reaction towards the word nigger just makes it a bigger issue than it is. It's the same with Black history month, and the aggressive homosexual perpetuation groups. ALl you're doing is promoting victim groups, identifying people as different for no other reason than to tell people that they aren't. It's stupid.
What about jokes about the holocaust or Hitler? Can those just be funny? Violence is encoded in language. The nihilistic internet generation that we're a part of sometimes forgets that and wants to make a joke out of everything, especially the void in their heart.
No, the word "nigger" cannot just be funny. Funny to whom?
Or people can let shit go. Everything can be funny eventually. The overblown reaction towards the word nigger just makes it a bigger issue than it is. It's the same with Black history month, and the aggressive homosexual perpetuation groups. ALl you're doing is promoting victim groups, identifying people as different for no other reason than to tell people that they aren't. It's stupid.
I'm pretty sure those groups were identified as different (while also being relentlessly persecuted and subjugated) when those words were first invented. Or does your memory not go back that far?
What about jokes about the holocaust or Hitler? Can those just be funny? Violence is encoded in language. The nihilistic internet generation that we're a part of sometimes forgets that and wants to make a joke out of everything, especially the void in their heart.
No, the word "nigger" cannot just be funny. Funny to whom?
Or people can let shit go. Everything can be funny eventually. The overblown reaction towards the word nigger just makes it a bigger issue than it is. It's the same with Black history month, and the aggressive homosexual perpetuation groups. ALl you're doing is promoting victim groups, identifying people as different for no other reason than to tell people that they aren't. It's stupid.
I highly agree with you. People should learn to accept change instead of fighting against it.
It's okay for tanks to blow apart marines in a bloody mess and for kids to see that is okay. If someone hears the word nigger, holy shit! Let's just dig up everything we can on that person and force the their hand by complaining to their sponsors.
Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem.
So EG takes upon someone known for dropping the N bomb, it bites them in the ass, and they dump Orb off for dropping the N bomb in the past.
I'm amazed that people want to get props to EG's management. If anything it just goes to show that they didn't do enough homework on the guy they hired either that or were hoping that the shit storm wouldn't come. Seems like it was a bad call on EG's part and I think it was kind of weak of them to submit to public pressure.
Maybe this was just the excuse they needed to get rid of Orb after how poorly received his casting has been by the community.
I am sorry for Orb since the use of these words still is far too normal in the gaming community. I am pretty sure, he never intended a racist or homophobic point of view, he just used some "random" insulting words. But here is the problem. As long as words like "faggot" or "nigger" are used as insults, they are always discriminating, intended or not. EG did the right thing. Hopefully other players that represent the sc2 community will learn from this.
On March 10 2012 04:16 Thrombozyt wrote: Honestly.. this case makes me dislike EG hard core. You sacrifice an employee for shit he has done in the past that might offend some thin skinned PC-fanatics (PC in this case = political correctness).
It nearly makes me go through all media presence of Idra and all other EG guys checking if they have used similar language - EVER.
Things like that make me angry. People acting on words and not on meaning. But words are there to confer meaning and therefore it should be acted upon the meaning and not the wording. Nigger (there - I said it - I'm SUCH a bad person) really is an incredibly weak insult anyhow. Either you are black, then you are part of the African-American population which are in a derogatory fashion called Niggers, or you are not - in which case it's just nonsense. So even if the person called a Nigger is black, it just says that the speaker has prejudice. What is the difference between a Nigger and an African-American? Objectively there isn't one. The only difference is that the first word is preferred by prejudiced speakers to underline their conviction.
I'm a German. I'm called a Kraut by some random Brit (again.. Brit.. has been used in German WW2 propagande posters.. highly offensive) in the UK. Am I offended? Not really. I'm not happy, but mainly because I can imply that the speaker hasn't got a positive attitude towards me and probably Germans in general. But do I go bonkers and pull the 'OMG! I'm the victim of evil racism!'-card (TM)? Hell no. Because he makes himself look stupid by calling me German in a different way.
I realize, that using Nigger to offend someone white can be seen as an offense to all black people (wait.. black people.. am I allowed to type that?). Yes.. but comeon.. grow a pair. Do I jump and yell every time one person calls another one a Nazi, despite the second person clearly not being part of a fascist regime? Hell no. Words and meaning. The meaning is "I'm angry at you and I wanna express my anger and make you angry too". He could use ANY kind of insult.
So please EG, either fire EVERYONE who has repeatedly insulted ANYONE with choice swear words or stay cool and let the PC-sissies (again - PC is NOT personal computer here) whine and cry.
If you have to single out a single swear word as extra evil, pick 'retard' and 'retarded' because that is actually a really insulting assumption about the targets intelligence and also picking on a group of people that through bad luck (genes/birth defect) are terribly afflicted.
May you be blessed by perspective Thrombozyt
You say that words are there to confer meaning, and then criticize people for conferring meaning from Orb's choice of words.
I think a lot of people are angry because this incident is challenging their perspective on racism. Rather than face it head-on, they give us twisted logic about 'meaning' or 'intention' and arguments about EG's hypocrisy (rather than demanding higher standards from EG's star players).
Get used to it folks. Welcome to the mainstream. As you eloquontly put it, "grow a pair" yourself.
People are intentionally conferring an absurd meaning (being: that Orb is a racist and evil evil person) to a situation that is clear cut from what I have heard: Orb raged on ladder and was hurling BM and insults at his opponent.
When people start intentionally conferring the worst possible meaning from words, things go to hell really really fast. Especially when it's done to ONE guy in an organization while others that are arguably worse guys in the same organization. That reeks of discrimination and favoritism.
The 'nigger is teh evilz' argument is bullshit, when you let 'faggot' and 'retarded' stand without equal action.
Oh.. and about the mainstream: I have to work against this PC bullshit becoming mainstream. Being hysteric about words is ridiculous and I seriously try to get a regular common english word (lets say 'tomorrow') to be an extremely offensive word in the FSM church. Hell... THAT will be fun.
You agree that Orb used a word that is/was used in reference to black people when insulting and BM'ing his opponent. How can you not infer any kind of racism there?
Discrimination and favouritism is wrong. Using racial slur is as bad as 'faggot' and 'retarded', no one (except the most idiotic) is arguing otherwise.
Go ahead and try to stigmatize 'tomorrow'. As if you alone can reproduce the effects of generations upon generations of racism. Though you're doing a mighty fine job of perpetuating it.
Have you never ever used ANY word that might offend ANY kind of group? I really don't know if there is anyone who can answer this question with yes. By your logic that means that everyone is a racist.
I have come to chalk this up simply to cultural difference. Americans are that way and I'm just fighting tooth and claw that Europe does NOT follow suit.
Now to the topic at hand: What happened here was that some people got hysterical about orb's rage from the past (1). Now don't get me wrong, I don't condone the raging and insulting. I try my best to be polite on the ladder and I refrain from insults. Now some people - most likely with a grudge - blew this out of proportion and told on EG's sponsors (2). Sponsor's got antsy, related pressure towards Alex (3). Orb is a new guy and therefore expendable and so he was fired (4). Then Mr. EG boss strolled in here and gave his moral high ground spiel, how proud he is of the community and how awesome his political correctness is (5). All the while other EG members have equal or worse transgressions in their past - even while being part of the EG organization. (6)
Ranking all 5 events from understandable to disgusting, I would order them in this way: 3/4/1/2/6/5
For me this smells like there was an overreaction in the Orb case, so that when Idra or another cash cow pulls something similar, the Orb case gets pulled out in an argument of "we cannot possibly be racist, look how we dealt with Orb".
I've seen posts from Europeans who take this issue seriously. Don't chalk it up to your culture. Fortunately, you do not represent all of Europe, though you can give us your anecdotes from personal experience.
Using racist language makes a person racist. Some can be extremely racist, some can be slightly racist.
A lot of other things also makes a person racist. For example, lynching someone for their racial background, burning a cross on a coloured person's lawn, etc. These more extreme actions would make someone more racist than Orb who only used racial slur to his opponent.
For example, a criminal. Crime varies - petty theft to first degree murder.
I am appalled at people outright denying any racism in using a word for black person as an insult.
On March 10 2012 07:13 Tridium wrote: So EG takes upon someone known for dropping the N bomb, it bites them in the ass, and they dump Orb off for dropping the N bomb in the past.
I'm amazed that people want to get props to EG's management. If anything it just goes to show that they didn't do enough homework on the guy they hired either that or were hoping that the shit storm wouldn't come. Seems like it was a bad call on EG's part and I think it was kind of weak of them to submit to public pressure.
Maybe this was just the excuse they needed to get rid of Orb after how poorly received his casting has been by the community.
Orb's one of the better community casters in terms of just knowledge base and based on the views that the ESV and ICCup had he's fairly well recieved. Not every caster is liked by everyone. Contrary to popular belief, there are people that don't like Day9, and tasteless has been getting shit on for this whole year basically.
On March 10 2012 07:10 SeraKuDA wrote: Oh what the hell... I don't even like orb's casting, but I feel sympathetic for him here. Who gives a shit about random words like that? It's not like we live in the 1950s. Times have changed. People are oversensitive sometimes, and they need to grow up. If you can't even say the word, let alone spell it I think you have a problem.
If times have changed, why do so many people persist in using racist language? It's not as though times changing makes the language less racist (if you think it does, please explain your reasoning).
Edit: note that I agree that times have changed in some ways--I just don't see how that's relevant here.
Here's a word that should be a joke to anyone: "Alex Garfield"
Hey chibsquad, where's my CSP? It's past the end of September by now!
Garfield is a backstabbing fool who was rejected by the CS community, which is why he likes to take pot shots at it. Honestly I never understood why Scott works with that guy. I despise him so much. He sold the CS community out so many times and now he thinks he can talk it down just because he's bitter that we remember his lies and how he abused the man who took him under his wing?
Not surprised he fired orb but banks on IdrA's notoriety for being the most BM player ever. Mr Black Studies thinks it's ok to insult every minority, as long as it's not blacks.
EPT![[image loading]](http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2011/10/img_3986_1.jpg)
