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And professional StarCraft 2 just lost a legend. Fruitdealer was one of the best players in the GSL, but of course not for a long time. Unfortunately things don't always turn out as we want them to. Good luck to him in the future with his LoL coaching career.
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FruitDealer probably just did this for a change of pace, and the feeling of actually making progress. His SC2 career became quite stagnant, and he became one of those "Washed-up" pros that used to be good, but just couldn't cut it anymore.
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On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 15:20 tyCe wrote:On March 05 2012 15:10 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 15:04 how2TL wrote:On March 05 2012 14:54 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote:
I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well. 50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2. That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time. edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!! LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious. LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it. No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy. Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference. Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc. A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation. This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain. Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board. Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development. edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!!
I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing.
On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Wow, way to be completely wrong about BW. Each core RTS component has a huge effect on the player's ability, and this includes mechanics. Why is it that Flash/Best has such a big army compared to everyone else? Why is it that Jaedongs Mutalisks never die? Why is it that Bisu can micro in 50 places at once with perfect micro and macro? Why is it that Stork only needs one Reaver to end the game?
This is all mechanics at work making a huge difference to the game. Of course I haven't even touched the effect of Starsense (or Maphacks if you are Flash) or Strategy at this point. Players like Movie/Reality/Stork/SaviOr who have abysmal APM (low 200's) and have to create amazing strategies every game.
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On March 05 2012 21:44 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 20:43 Usagi wrote:On March 05 2012 13:21 Dissonance23 wrote:
LoL viewerbase is bigger than SC2s in basically every way, even the top top streamers double the top sc2 streamers most of the time, some can average around 11k viewers. Major LoL tournaments regularly have 100k+ people watching. Top streamers double... right. But when you go down 2 or 3 ladders in the streamer numbers, the guys tat are streaming below that have way lower numbers than the SC2 streams. So it is fine, the streaming numbers for players is still higher in SC2 and more spread out, wich is good. I did some research on this. One player that would be considered the top in LoL recieves more stream views then every single sc2 stream combined. This was the exact same time of day as well. Of course this changes with time of the day. but you can't say that LoL isn't more popular than sc2, we would be lying to ourselves... and linking the streams directly in game. Though just because LoL is more popular doesn't mean sc2 is dying. Nor does it mean LoL is an eaier game. You can't directly compare them. LoL has its own skills needed to play, and so does sc2. They both require a different skill cap and make use of different skills. Saying LoL is easy is not exactly true. In high level games you have to consider a ton of different factors. Same with sc2. You coudl say low level games (bronze/silver) are easy, which would be true, but once you get to a high skill level, it isn't so easy. The game gets harder as people get better. but again we can't directly compare them, only way we can compare them is by which one we enjoy more. some enjoy sc2 more, some snjoy LoL more. We shouldn't bitch and compain about LoL though. Its a game like any other, people enjoy said game. Its like people botching that sc2 is too easy compared to bw, even though true. It just causes more tension between the two communities. Lets not have that. Esports is Esports is Esports
Where have you done your research... and when? Because that's utter bullshit.
It's true that LoL events are having more viewers... and that's it. But LoL are having less online events, less live events, less streamers, etc.
No, the "one player that is considered the top in LoL" don't receive more viewers that all SC2 streams combined, that's bullshit. Maybe if he is streaming during a big SC2 live events when pretty much every streamers are watching it playing in it... but EVEN THEN, that's probably not even true.
LoL are globally pulling more viewers... but by not that much, knowing that most of the time, SC2 have three differents event running at the same time... and LoL have one. And people are quick to forget that Riot are pretty much sponsoring EVERY fucking events themself.
And, LoL events were having more viewers a couple of month ago, they shrinked a bit, actually. SC2 events are pulling more and more viewers at each events... without the help of blizzard and not calculating barcraft, that give the stream only 1 viewer, even if they are like 300 peoples or more watching in the same room.
I'm really not worried... REALLY not. Dota 2 will compete directly with LoL, while SC2 is not competing directly with them... it's just not the same type of game.
Finally, Blizzard seem to start to step up in the eSports business too, with the super big event that they are planning this year. And at this game of throwing milions and milions of dollar away to sponsor events, Riot can't keep up with Blizzard and VALVe.
I don't dislike LoL I just like SC2 better, but sadly, I don't think that LoL will survive long term. It's the WC3 effect... There is few events but they are having LARGE numbers of viewers and therefore are getting quite a lot of attention. But, honestly, do you know any LoL viewer that is not playing LoL? I don't... but I know plenty of SC2 viewers that are not playing SC2 at all. And casual peoples get bored of playing a game way faster that they get bored of watching something simply because... it's easier.
And, let's get real here for a second... have you watched the GSL final last week-end? You just CAN'T beat that with any LoL games, never ever. That does not mean that LoL is a worst game than SC2... but you just can't get this level of excitement from viewing a LoL game.
Anyway, good luck to FD! I'm sure that he have the experience for it.
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On March 05 2012 22:18 Xalorian wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 21:44 masterbreti wrote:On March 05 2012 20:43 Usagi wrote:On March 05 2012 13:21 Dissonance23 wrote:
LoL viewerbase is bigger than SC2s in basically every way, even the top top streamers double the top sc2 streamers most of the time, some can average around 11k viewers. Major LoL tournaments regularly have 100k+ people watching. Top streamers double... right. But when you go down 2 or 3 ladders in the streamer numbers, the guys tat are streaming below that have way lower numbers than the SC2 streams. So it is fine, the streaming numbers for players is still higher in SC2 and more spread out, wich is good. I did some research on this. One player that would be considered the top in LoL recieves more stream views then every single sc2 stream combined. This was the exact same time of day as well. Of course this changes with time of the day. but you can't say that LoL isn't more popular than sc2, we would be lying to ourselves... and linking the streams directly in game. Though just because LoL is more popular doesn't mean sc2 is dying. Nor does it mean LoL is an eaier game. You can't directly compare them. LoL has its own skills needed to play, and so does sc2. They both require a different skill cap and make use of different skills. Saying LoL is easy is not exactly true. In high level games you have to consider a ton of different factors. Same with sc2. You coudl say low level games (bronze/silver) are easy, which would be true, but once you get to a high skill level, it isn't so easy. The game gets harder as people get better. but again we can't directly compare them, only way we can compare them is by which one we enjoy more. some enjoy sc2 more, some snjoy LoL more. We shouldn't bitch and compain about LoL though. Its a game like any other, people enjoy said game. Its like people botching that sc2 is too easy compared to bw, even though true. It just causes more tension between the two communities. Lets not have that. Esports is Esports is Esports Where have you done your research... and when? Because that's utter bullshit. It's true that LoL events are having more viewers... and that's it. But LoL are having less online events, less live events, less streamers, etc. No, the "one player that is considered the top in LoL" don't receive more viewers that all SC2 streams combined, that's bullshit. Maybe if he is streaming during a big SC2 live events when pretty much every streamers are watching it playing in it... but EVEN THEN, that's probably not even true. LoL are globally pulling more viewers... but by not that much, knowing that most of the time, SC2 have three differents event running at the same time... and LoL have one. And people are quick to forget that Riot are pretty much sponsoring EVERY fucking events themself. And, LoL events were having more viewers a couple of month ago, they shrinked a bit, actually. SC2 events are pulling more and more viewers at each events... without the help of blizzard and not calculating barcraft, that give the stream only 1 viewer, even if they are like 300 peoples or more watching in the same room. I'm really not worried... REALLY not. Dota 2 will compete directly with LoL, while SC2 is not competing directly with them... it's just not the same type of game. Finally, Blizzard seem to start to step up in the eSports business too, with the super big event that they are planning this year. And at this game of throwing milions and milions of dollar away to sponsor events, Riot can't keep up with Blizzard and VALVe. I don't dislike LoL I just like SC2 better, but sadly, I don't think that LoL will survive long term. It's the WC3 effect... There is few events but they are having LARGE numbers of viewers and therefore are getting quite a lot of attention. But, honestly, do you know any LoL viewer that is not playing LoL? I don't... but I know plenty of SC2 viewers that are not playing SC2 at all. And casual peoples get bored of playing a game way faster that they get bored of watching something simply because... it's easier. Anyway, good luck to FD! I'm sure that he have the experience for it.
This was one evening I was having a conversation about this exact issue.
Someone named HotshotGG was straming and got 16550 viewers, and according to the top bar on teamliquid. It said there were only 14250 odd people watching sc2 stream, I didn't even take out those listed on tl who don't stream sc2.
This was one LoL stream compared to every sc2 stream listed on TL. Keep in mind this wasn't during any big events. But I think similar results would occur when big events were occuring for LoL and sc2.
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It's too bad, but I can understand his decision. He hasn't had any good success since IEM: NY, and even there, nobody expected him to actually do well. It really is a shame, because for a little while he was considered the best in SC2, and I was really psyched to see him in the TSL3.
It's odd how different my image of him is from back then (as in, about a year ago) to how I feel about him now. Oh well, I hope he likes LoL.
I can also understand why there's so much passive-aggressiveness and general contempt for LoL in here. I think people are somewhat jealous and scared that LoL will become the new hot-shot eSport, and that SC2 will fail. I don't think it will, and I think LoL and SC2, as they are very different games, can live alongside each other.
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I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing.
Actually, The level of mechanic difficulty of Meepo is comparable WC3's normal game. I find it's much easier than SC2 or BW.
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On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote:
Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever.
They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would...
also less competition
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On March 05 2012 22:16 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 15:20 tyCe wrote:On March 05 2012 15:10 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 15:04 how2TL wrote:On March 05 2012 14:54 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote:
I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well. 50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2. That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time. edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!! LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious. LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it. No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy. Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference. Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc. A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation. This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain. Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board. Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development. edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!! I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play. You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game. If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else. You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him. There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing. Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Wow, way to be completely wrong about BW. Each core RTS component has a huge effect on the player's ability, and this includes mechanics. Why is it that Flash/Best has such a big army compared to everyone else? Why is it that Jaedongs Mutalisks never die? Why is it that Bisu can micro in 50 places at once with perfect micro and macro? Why is it that Stork only needs one Reaver to end the game? This is all mechanics at work making a huge difference to the game. Of course I haven't even touched the effect of Starsense (or Maphacks if you are Flash) or Strategy at this point. Players like Movie/Reality/Stork/SaviOr who have abysmal APM (low 200's) and have to create amazing strategies every game.
You just proved his point.
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On March 05 2012 22:37 noD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote:
Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever. They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition
...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys.
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On March 05 2012 22:32 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing. Actually, The level of mechanic difficulty of Meepo is comparable WC3's normal game. I find it's much easier than SC2 or BW.
Really? No way, unless you are playing them grouped together, which is less efficient and is how most if not all pubbers play him. I find farming in 4 areas equally if not more difficult than playing BW, I've lost count of how many times an SA has just one shot me minding my own business killing creeps. Granted I haven't played a lot of WC3 (I want to but can't find any games), but seriously this is basically what its like.
Imagine a UMS where you had to micro 4 corsairs one of each in 4 different parts of the map, now each corsair has 2 scourge chasing it and every now and then you have to Chinese triangle to avoid it killing you. Now while this is happening, there are overlords all over the map and you have to kill them all. Add onto this that there are other players but they only have to micro one corsair, and they are trying to snipe you. Oh wait it doesn't stop there, while you are doing all this you have to keep tab of your mineral count and send at least one corsair back every now and then to your cyber-core to get upgrades or shield battery for repairs. If any one of your corsairs die, they all die and you have to wait a whole minute while the other players get stronger in the mean time.
That is playing Meepo.
On March 05 2012 22:44 Blennd wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 22:16 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 15:20 tyCe wrote:On March 05 2012 15:10 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 15:04 how2TL wrote:On March 05 2012 14:54 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote:
I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well. 50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2. That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time. edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!! LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious. LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it. No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy. Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference. Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc. A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation. This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain. Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board. Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development. edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!! I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play. You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game. If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else. You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him. There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing. On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Wow, way to be completely wrong about BW. Each core RTS component has a huge effect on the player's ability, and this includes mechanics. Why is it that Flash/Best has such a big army compared to everyone else? Why is it that Jaedongs Mutalisks never die? Why is it that Bisu can micro in 50 places at once with perfect micro and macro? Why is it that Stork only needs one Reaver to end the game? This is all mechanics at work making a huge difference to the game. Of course I haven't even touched the effect of Starsense (or Maphacks if you are Flash) or Strategy at this point. Players like Movie/Reality/Stork/SaviOr who have abysmal APM (low 200's) and have to create amazing strategies every game. You just proved his point.
Lol, no I didn't re-read his post and mine. He said games are won basically on decision making and implied that everyone has roughly the same mechanics. I'm saying the opposite.
There are some people with abysmal mechanics, and some people with great mechanics, for some mechanics wins the game on its own, and for some its the opposite.
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one of lol's secrets for audience is to have embedded the stream with the tournaments in its game client
I fail to see why blizzard doesnt do that, just put a twich/own3d whatever embedded player when ppl log in on battle.net they will know of big tournaments...
Also Riot put like 3 news per day so you know what is going on, Blizzard is so very lazy doing that, it's not even funny and cost them a lot of money for small things
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I really don't understand what the point of these types of threads is, they just immediately start at the level of bashing a player's skill and then go even lower to attack his personality / character really fast. It's something I'd expect more at Reddit.
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On March 05 2012 22:26 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 22:18 Xalorian wrote:On March 05 2012 21:44 masterbreti wrote:On March 05 2012 20:43 Usagi wrote:On March 05 2012 13:21 Dissonance23 wrote:
LoL viewerbase is bigger than SC2s in basically every way, even the top top streamers double the top sc2 streamers most of the time, some can average around 11k viewers. Major LoL tournaments regularly have 100k+ people watching. Top streamers double... right. But when you go down 2 or 3 ladders in the streamer numbers, the guys tat are streaming below that have way lower numbers than the SC2 streams. So it is fine, the streaming numbers for players is still higher in SC2 and more spread out, wich is good. I did some research on this. One player that would be considered the top in LoL recieves more stream views then every single sc2 stream combined. This was the exact same time of day as well. Of course this changes with time of the day. but you can't say that LoL isn't more popular than sc2, we would be lying to ourselves... and linking the streams directly in game. Though just because LoL is more popular doesn't mean sc2 is dying. Nor does it mean LoL is an eaier game. You can't directly compare them. LoL has its own skills needed to play, and so does sc2. They both require a different skill cap and make use of different skills. Saying LoL is easy is not exactly true. In high level games you have to consider a ton of different factors. Same with sc2. You coudl say low level games (bronze/silver) are easy, which would be true, but once you get to a high skill level, it isn't so easy. The game gets harder as people get better. but again we can't directly compare them, only way we can compare them is by which one we enjoy more. some enjoy sc2 more, some snjoy LoL more. We shouldn't bitch and compain about LoL though. Its a game like any other, people enjoy said game. Its like people botching that sc2 is too easy compared to bw, even though true. It just causes more tension between the two communities. Lets not have that. Esports is Esports is Esports Where have you done your research... and when? Because that's utter bullshit. It's true that LoL events are having more viewers... and that's it. But LoL are having less online events, less live events, less streamers, etc. No, the "one player that is considered the top in LoL" don't receive more viewers that all SC2 streams combined, that's bullshit. Maybe if he is streaming during a big SC2 live events when pretty much every streamers are watching it playing in it... but EVEN THEN, that's probably not even true. LoL are globally pulling more viewers... but by not that much, knowing that most of the time, SC2 have three differents event running at the same time... and LoL have one. And people are quick to forget that Riot are pretty much sponsoring EVERY fucking events themself. And, LoL events were having more viewers a couple of month ago, they shrinked a bit, actually. SC2 events are pulling more and more viewers at each events... without the help of blizzard and not calculating barcraft, that give the stream only 1 viewer, even if they are like 300 peoples or more watching in the same room. I'm really not worried... REALLY not. Dota 2 will compete directly with LoL, while SC2 is not competing directly with them... it's just not the same type of game. Finally, Blizzard seem to start to step up in the eSports business too, with the super big event that they are planning this year. And at this game of throwing milions and milions of dollar away to sponsor events, Riot can't keep up with Blizzard and VALVe. I don't dislike LoL I just like SC2 better, but sadly, I don't think that LoL will survive long term. It's the WC3 effect... There is few events but they are having LARGE numbers of viewers and therefore are getting quite a lot of attention. But, honestly, do you know any LoL viewer that is not playing LoL? I don't... but I know plenty of SC2 viewers that are not playing SC2 at all. And casual peoples get bored of playing a game way faster that they get bored of watching something simply because... it's easier. Anyway, good luck to FD! I'm sure that he have the experience for it. This was one evening I was having a conversation about this exact issue. Someone named HotshotGG was straming and got 16550 viewers, and according to the top bar on teamliquid. It said there were only 14250 odd people watching sc2 stream, I didn't even take out those listed on tl who don't stream sc2. This was one LoL stream compared to every sc2 stream listed on TL. Keep in mind this wasn't during any big events. But I think similar results would occur when big events were occuring for LoL and sc2.
He actually streamed himself building a couch. Got over 10k viewers.
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On March 05 2012 22:45 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 22:37 noD wrote:On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote:
Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever. They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition ...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys.
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
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On March 05 2012 22:46 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 22:32 Wildmoon wrote:I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing. Actually, The level of mechanic difficulty of Meepo is comparable WC3's normal game. I find it's much easier than SC2 or BW. Really? No way, unless you are playing them grouped together, which is less efficient and is how most if not all pubbers play him. I find farming in 4 areas equally if not more difficult than playing BW, I've lost count of how many times an SA has just one shot me minding my own business killing creeps. Granted I haven't played a lot of WC3 (I want to but can't find any games), but seriously this is basically what its like. Imagine a UMS where you had to micro 4 corsairs one of each in 4 different parts of the map, now each corsair has 2 scourge chasing it and every now and then you have to Chinese triangle to avoid it killing you. Now while this is happening, there are overlords all over the map and you have to kill them all. Add onto this that there are other players but they only have to micro one corsair, and they are trying to snipe you. Oh wait it doesn't stop there, while you are doing all this you have to keep tab of your mineral count and send at least one corsair back every now and then to your cyber-core to get upgrades or shield battery for repairs. If any one of your corsairs die, they all die and you have to wait a whole minute while the other players get stronger in the mean time. That is playing Meepo. Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 22:44 Blennd wrote:On March 05 2012 22:16 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 15:20 tyCe wrote:On March 05 2012 15:10 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 15:04 how2TL wrote:On March 05 2012 14:54 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote:
I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well. 50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2. That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time. edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!! LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious. LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it. No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy. Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference. Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc. A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation. This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain. Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board. Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development. edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!! I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play. You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game. If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else. You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him. There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing. On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Wow, way to be completely wrong about BW. Each core RTS component has a huge effect on the player's ability, and this includes mechanics. Why is it that Flash/Best has such a big army compared to everyone else? Why is it that Jaedongs Mutalisks never die? Why is it that Bisu can micro in 50 places at once with perfect micro and macro? Why is it that Stork only needs one Reaver to end the game? This is all mechanics at work making a huge difference to the game. Of course I haven't even touched the effect of Starsense (or Maphacks if you are Flash) or Strategy at this point. Players like Movie/Reality/Stork/SaviOr who have abysmal APM (low 200's) and have to create amazing strategies every game. You just proved his point. Lol, no I didn't re-read his post and mine. He said games are won basically on decision making and implied that everyone has roughly the same mechanics. I'm saying the opposite. There are some people with abysmal mechanics, and some people with great mechanics, for some mechanics wins the game on its own, and for some its the opposite.
Don't know how you find it as hard as BW. -_-" I find it much easier than SC2 and BW mechanically. Other than control unit you have to macro in SC. I am no pro in Dota but I play Meepo quite often with 4 lane farming. It's just simply more thing to do in SC.
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On March 05 2012 13:03 dongus wrote:
I don't understand. What's there to coach in LoL?
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This comment is a bit overrated, but generally it's true.
There really isn't a lot of thing in LoL, and even pro gamers has stated the game as quite easy, which is the case and most of the things in this game is knowledge based, rather than skill like learning all the abilities and heroes 100 %.
Someone said there was a lot of coordination for the team, most of those things is quite basic as well but there is a few things. So overall there isn't really tons of stuff in this game to be coached, especially due to the game having a low skill cap
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United States23455 Posts
Starcraft is growing as well. LoL has a bigger base since it's easier for casuals to get into and to play since it's free, and yes, it does have more viewers when it comes to streams, but it's not like Starcraft has plateaued. The GSL Finals had three times the average amount and the arena was packed. Look back at the first few finals when it was pretty damn embarrassing on how little Korea came out.
Not saying Starcraft 2 is bigger than LoL in Korea or worldwide, but both are growing e-sports. With the Heart of the Swarm expansion, things might even explode even more popularity wise. Both are widely successful in terms of getting fans to watch, so I don't see the big debate.
Also, good on FruitDealer. He obviously couldn't hang any longer in the SC2 pro scene and he had to make money somehow. Now he can stay at Startale, do something he enjoys, and get paid for it. It would be one thing if he was a Code S-level player and he quit to become a LoL coach, but he has been floundering for a while. His last big accomplishment was IEM New York almost half a year ago.
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EPT
