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On March 05 2012 13:02 Neurosis wrote:
From bw to sc2 to LoL. I can't think of an easier "esport" so this has to be it for him I guess -_-
Hes been playing LoL a while now!! I've played some games with him on LoL <.<
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Yes... there is more streamed games of League of Legends for sure, since there is more players. But, I was talking about "known" streamers.
And, if you would actually read what you are linking... you would understand that this chart, on reddit, is an average. A rating. Therefore, if a streamers is streaming 24 hours straigh but have 1000 viewers... he will have a better rating that Day9, that is streaming at most 2 hours/ 5 times a week, but is having between 7-10k viewers each day. Wich one is more popular to you?
And, I asked one of my friends that is actually a big time into LoL since he is aiming to be a pro... and he basically told me that :
"Well, most LoL pro-players HAVE to streams 14 hours a day to actually eat. Most price pool are really low and are actually split between the team... And team just do not have enough sponsors to actually offer a salary. LoL is a bit more popular on own3d and twitch... but just a bit, knowing that streamers are streaming A LOT longer and by that I mean 6 to 8 times longer. And the fact that they are actually streaming each day at the same hours is helping too... they can set a schedule so people are following team."
A quote by a guy on reddit, that I find actually quite true :
"It may be difficult to do, but the only statistic you present is basically stream ad revenue; as fans we would be much more interested in the size of the fanbase, not the time they spend streaming. I don't get the privacy argument about public streams; I love privacy, but attempting to protect the privacy of someone by not showing things that he deliberately put out there for people to see seems... stupid.
If you have someone streaming once a week for an hour and having an average of 100k people watching (and maybe a couple million watching the show in the archive) and somebody else streaming 4 hours a day with 4k viewers average then it would be very clear who would be the more successful of the two, it wouldn't even be close, yet your results would show the opposite.
If you only want to show one statistic, choose average viewers. It's not perfect, but it's a hell of a lot better than viewerminutes."
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This off course turned out as a fight Sc2 vs LOL ...
As for the LOL vs Sc2 discussion , the proof that LOL is easier is Fruitdealer himself .. He is a SC2 pro , but on LOL he is a coach , because he has the mentality and knowledge to help the guys on LOL .
Lets hope that MVP, DRG, MMA,Nestea dont change to LOL also , they would own the scene for a fews years
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LoL is quickly becoming the graveyard of starcraft players. It's sad. :s
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LoL just aims on a different public. SC2 is just not rewarding for the casual gamer whereas LoL is. I quit playing SC2 & bw because it just takes too much time/effort to play it at a decent level. LoL on the contrary is very rewarding for people like myself, who got a job & other stuff to do that just don't have the time to play 24/7. Even if you only play a few hours a week, you'll still have the feeling that you're doing ok and let's be honest that's what most people want x).
On top of it LoL-team is just way smarter than blizzard when it comes down to commercial stuff. They actually put effort in trying to make their game shine. Unlike blizzard they also follow the scene so they know way better what their costumers want. I've never seen blizzard asking for much feedback whereas LoL asks for feedback for every patch they implement (which is about every 1-2 months).
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On March 05 2012 23:01 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 22:46 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 05 2012 22:32 Wildmoon wrote:I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing. Actually, The level of mechanic difficulty of Meepo is comparable WC3's normal game. I find it's much easier than SC2 or BW. Really? No way, unless you are playing them grouped together, which is less efficient and is how most if not all pubbers play him. I find farming in 4 areas equally if not more difficult than playing BW, I've lost count of how many times an SA has just one shot me minding my own business killing creeps. Granted I haven't played a lot of WC3 (I want to but can't find any games), but seriously this is basically what its like. Imagine a UMS where you had to micro 4 corsairs one of each in 4 different parts of the map, now each corsair has 2 scourge chasing it and every now and then you have to Chinese triangle to avoid it killing you. Now while this is happening, there are overlords all over the map and you have to kill them all. Add onto this that there are other players but they only have to micro one corsair, and they are trying to snipe you. Oh wait it doesn't stop there, while you are doing all this you have to keep tab of your mineral count and send at least one corsair back every now and then to your cyber-core to get upgrades or shield battery for repairs. If any one of your corsairs die, they all die and you have to wait a whole minute while the other players get stronger in the mean time. That is playing Meepo. On March 05 2012 22:44 Blennd wrote:On March 05 2012 22:16 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 15:20 tyCe wrote:On March 05 2012 15:10 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 15:04 how2TL wrote:On March 05 2012 14:54 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 14:20 lkjewq wrote:
I would venture to say that LoL is more dynamic than sc2. Sorry there's 50+ heroes against 3 races. If LoL could figure out how to balance more maps it would be quite a breakthrough.
I've played both. I'm only a 1600 level player in LoL after nearly 6 months of playing whereas I was a grandmaster in SC2 for multiple seasons. NA and EU although I played sc2 for nearly a year.
LoL is a different genre of game than sc2 and they really cant be compared. (yes I know I just compared them a little)
if people practice LoL just as hard as they practice SC2 or BW it would be just as difficult and high level. Remember how people used to say SC2 competition was a farce? Well yeah it was the first few seasons, LoL is in it's first few seasons as well. 50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2. That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time. edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!! LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious. LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it. No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy. Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference. Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc. A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation. This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain. Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board. Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development. edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!! I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play. You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game. If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else. You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him. There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing. On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Wow, way to be completely wrong about BW. Each core RTS component has a huge effect on the player's ability, and this includes mechanics. Why is it that Flash/Best has such a big army compared to everyone else? Why is it that Jaedongs Mutalisks never die? Why is it that Bisu can micro in 50 places at once with perfect micro and macro? Why is it that Stork only needs one Reaver to end the game? This is all mechanics at work making a huge difference to the game. Of course I haven't even touched the effect of Starsense (or Maphacks if you are Flash) or Strategy at this point. Players like Movie/Reality/Stork/SaviOr who have abysmal APM (low 200's) and have to create amazing strategies every game. You just proved his point. Lol, no I didn't re-read his post and mine. He said games are won basically on decision making and implied that everyone has roughly the same mechanics. I'm saying the opposite. There are some people with abysmal mechanics, and some people with great mechanics, for some mechanics wins the game on its own, and for some its the opposite. Don't know how you find it as hard as BW. -_-" I find it much easier than SC2 and BW mechanically.
Well first point, is are you farming in 4 different places at once? I've never seen a pubber do this, bit some top amateurs (pro-am) though will to a certain extent (mid-bot 2-2, or 1-1-2 mid-bot-creeps, and very rarely 1-1-1-1 top-bot-mid-creeps if they are uber gosu). I used to practise with high level pubbers as well because for some reason there's a massive DotA scene in Melbourne.
A while ago any Lan cafe you go to would be full of dota players, every single computer had someone playing dota on it, there would be maybe 1 or 2 guys in a 60 pc room playing Battlefield or something, the rest dota, maybe kinda akin to what BW was in PC Bangs in Korea? Although not so much now, we have quite a few more people playing WoW/HoN now.
I guess maybe because you played WC3 as well as BW. I am not as in tune with keeping units alive as much as WC3 players are, but I find having to focus on many different things not that difficult at all. For example building turrets while macroing, while checking upgrades, while micro-ing vultures and laying mines while siege pushing and splitting/walling the map. All this stuff is easy to learn because its always the same and there's no risk, I generally never go over 500 minerals even on 3 bases and always doing something with my units, but whats harder to learn is actually focused multitasking, I am not so great at keeping corsairs alive, while I'm microing Reavers DT's.
On March 05 2012 23:13 Goose- wrote:
LoL just aims on a different public. SC2 is just not rewarding for the casual gamer whereas LoL is. I quit playing SC2 & bw because it just takes too much time/effort to play it at a decent level. LoL on the contrary is very rewarding for people like myself, who got a job & other stuff to do that just don't have the time to play 24/7. Even if you only play a few hours a week, you'll still have the feeling that you're doing ok and let's be honest that's what most people want x).
On top of it LoL-team is just way smarter than blizzard when it comes down to commercial stuff. They actually put effort in trying to make their game shine. Unlike blizzard they also follow the scene so they know way better what their costumers want. I've never seen blizzard asking for much feedback whereas LoL asks for feedback for every patch they implement (which is about every 1-2 months).
That's what people said about SC2, until the casuals stopped playing and the players got good. Eventually that time will come for LoL also, and you will have to be really good at the game just to not get hated on. Just like DotA 1 is right now.
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Russian Federation798 Posts
No one can dispute the popularity of LoL, as it pulls several times the viewers of SC2 at major events. Obviously the main reason for this is the fact that the game its free and better for casuals (easier than SC2, also team game).
However I feel that blizzard is also not doing enough to promote SC2 compared to riot, who pretty much sponsors all major LoL tournaments while blizz doesn't do anything. Blizz is too lazy to even do small things like notify people on game client about major events while riot does this extensively through news and links to streams in live events, which I think maybe costing SC2 quite a lot of views.
And good luck fruitdealer, will never forget the first GSL even though I was supporting Rainbow 
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GL to him wierd but, why is this in SC2 genral? I don't see what it means for sc2 he hasnt participated in recent tourneys and he is going to coach LoL nothing to do with sc2.
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On March 05 2012 18:24 Zealot Orgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 18:13 ETisME wrote:
yellow also is a coach for a LoL team now.
Seems the heat of LoL is quite strong in Korea too I view it as kids who get super-excited for the new toy. I mean ther's not a single Korean team that's even remotely close to be in the top10 of the best LoL teams, yet they are showing an impressive dedication to the game.
MiG is probably top10.
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On March 05 2012 23:17 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 23:01 Wildmoon wrote:On March 05 2012 22:46 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 05 2012 22:32 Wildmoon wrote:I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing. Actually, The level of mechanic difficulty of Meepo is comparable WC3's normal game. I find it's much easier than SC2 or BW. Really? No way, unless you are playing them grouped together, which is less efficient and is how most if not all pubbers play him. I find farming in 4 areas equally if not more difficult than playing BW, I've lost count of how many times an SA has just one shot me minding my own business killing creeps. Granted I haven't played a lot of WC3 (I want to but can't find any games), but seriously this is basically what its like. Imagine a UMS where you had to micro 4 corsairs one of each in 4 different parts of the map, now each corsair has 2 scourge chasing it and every now and then you have to Chinese triangle to avoid it killing you. Now while this is happening, there are overlords all over the map and you have to kill them all. Add onto this that there are other players but they only have to micro one corsair, and they are trying to snipe you. Oh wait it doesn't stop there, while you are doing all this you have to keep tab of your mineral count and send at least one corsair back every now and then to your cyber-core to get upgrades or shield battery for repairs. If any one of your corsairs die, they all die and you have to wait a whole minute while the other players get stronger in the mean time. That is playing Meepo. On March 05 2012 22:44 Blennd wrote:On March 05 2012 22:16 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 15:20 tyCe wrote:On March 05 2012 15:10 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 15:04 how2TL wrote:On March 05 2012 14:54 Gentso wrote:
[quote]
50 heroes that get reduced to a few different roles. League champs are super similar. There's so many aspects to SC2 that make it more dynamic that I really refuse to believe that you were grandmaster. There's economy, maps, more than 50 units, multitasking, air units, building placement, timings, the list literally goes on forever. If you want a truly dynamic MOBA, you should be playing DOTA2. BTW, a grandmaster of SC2 should EASILY be able to be 2k elo+ in League. I only played SC2 when there was diamond league, and that was my league. I played League for a little while and hit 2k easily and quickly after getting to level 30. Seriously, you queue and you fulfill either bruisier top, ap mid, jungle, and ad carry or support bottom. The champions fulfill those roles, and their designs and really prevent what you think could be dynamic. I quit playing as soon as I got a beta key to DOTA2.
That said, I feel like League is still in its infancy stages when it comes to the pro scene. It's seriously a joke. All the of the top teams of League atm are a joke, none of them are very professional at all. They're pretty much all a bunch of decent players together on a team. If there were any disciplined team out there like a Staretale that looked at the game, figured it out, and aimed to elevate the game then that would be great. The level of skill in League I'd say is comparable to SC2 beta where everyone just all-in'd all the time.
edit: People talking about skill ceilings in SC2 is ridiculous. Mechanically, people may have gotten to the sufficient level. But people are getting better all of the time and at a good rate. There's still a lot to learn and explore. How confident would you be sending in the top player of right now in the future to about a year from now to play against their top players? Not very confident!! LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious. LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it. No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy. Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference. Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc. A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation. This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain. Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board. Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development. edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!! I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play. You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game. If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else. You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him. There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing. On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Wow, way to be completely wrong about BW. Each core RTS component has a huge effect on the player's ability, and this includes mechanics. Why is it that Flash/Best has such a big army compared to everyone else? Why is it that Jaedongs Mutalisks never die? Why is it that Bisu can micro in 50 places at once with perfect micro and macro? Why is it that Stork only needs one Reaver to end the game? This is all mechanics at work making a huge difference to the game. Of course I haven't even touched the effect of Starsense (or Maphacks if you are Flash) or Strategy at this point. Players like Movie/Reality/Stork/SaviOr who have abysmal APM (low 200's) and have to create amazing strategies every game. You just proved his point. Lol, no I didn't re-read his post and mine. He said games are won basically on decision making and implied that everyone has roughly the same mechanics. I'm saying the opposite. There are some people with abysmal mechanics, and some people with great mechanics, for some mechanics wins the game on its own, and for some its the opposite. Don't know how you find it as hard as BW. -_-" I find it much easier than SC2 and BW mechanically. Well first point, is are you farming in 4 different places at once? I've never seen a pubber do this, bit some top amateurs (pro-am) though will to a certain extent (mid-bot 2-2, or 1-1-2 mid-bot-creeps, and very rarely 1-1-1-1 top-bot-mid-creeps if they are uber gosu). I used to practise with high level pubbers as well because for some reason there's a massive DotA scene in Melbourne. A while ago any Lan cafe you go to would be full of dota players, every single computer had someone playing dota on it, there would be maybe 1 or 2 guys in a 60 pc room playing Battlefield or something, the rest dota, maybe kinda akin to what BW was in PC Bangs in Korea? Although not so much now, we have quite a few more people playing WoW/HoN now. I guess maybe because you played WC3 as well as BW. I am not as in tune with keeping units alive as much as WC3 players are, but I find having to focus on many different things not that difficult at all. For example building turrets while macroing, while checking upgrades, while micro-ing vultures and laying mines while siege pushing and splitting/walling the map. All this stuff is easy to learn because its always the same and there's no risk, I generally never go over 500 minerals even on 3 bases and always doing something with my units, but whats harder to learn is actually focused multitasking, I am not so great at keeping corsairs alive, while I'm microing Reavers DT's. Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 23:13 Goose- wrote:
LoL just aims on a different public. SC2 is just not rewarding for the casual gamer whereas LoL is. I quit playing SC2 & bw because it just takes too much time/effort to play it at a decent level. LoL on the contrary is very rewarding for people like myself, who got a job & other stuff to do that just don't have the time to play 24/7. Even if you only play a few hours a week, you'll still have the feeling that you're doing ok and let's be honest that's what most people want x).
On top of it LoL-team is just way smarter than blizzard when it comes down to commercial stuff. They actually put effort in trying to make their game shine. Unlike blizzard they also follow the scene so they know way better what their costumers want. I've never seen blizzard asking for much feedback whereas LoL asks for feedback for every patch they implement (which is about every 1-2 months).
That's what people said about SC2, until the casuals stopped playing and the players got good. Eventually that time will come for LoL also, and you will have to be really good at the game just to not get hated on. Just like DotA 1 is right now.
I have played WC3,BW,SC2. It may be that I have played WC3 before and in WC3 you have to keep your units alive unlike SC which you can effort to lose some unit. I do 2-2 and 1-1-1-1 sometimes when I feel my opponents are pretty bad. I play in cafe in Thailand. Dota is really popular here. You may be surprised if you see cafe in Thailand:D. There's many young kids(8-12 years old) that can play Dota at reasonable level(can be pub stomper). They really love the game. I believe that the difficulty of Dota game lies in teamwork not mechanic.
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the biggest plus for LoL which none can deny is when u type lol into google the 1st hit is LoL
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On March 05 2012 23:09 Xalorian wrote:Yes... there is more streamed games of League of Legends for sure, since there is more players. But, I was talking about "known" streamers.
Who is a known streamer in your eyes? There are several people in LoL that get more than 10k viewers on average, and a lot more people with consistently 4-6k viewers. I can just think of idra (as a player) who always gets over 10k viewers. So i dont see how SC2 has more known or popular streamers.
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On March 05 2012 23:30 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 23:17 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 05 2012 23:01 Wildmoon wrote:On March 05 2012 22:46 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 05 2012 22:32 Wildmoon wrote:I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play.
You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game.
If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else.
You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him.
There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing. Actually, The level of mechanic difficulty of Meepo is comparable WC3's normal game. I find it's much easier than SC2 or BW. Really? No way, unless you are playing them grouped together, which is less efficient and is how most if not all pubbers play him. I find farming in 4 areas equally if not more difficult than playing BW, I've lost count of how many times an SA has just one shot me minding my own business killing creeps. Granted I haven't played a lot of WC3 (I want to but can't find any games), but seriously this is basically what its like. Imagine a UMS where you had to micro 4 corsairs one of each in 4 different parts of the map, now each corsair has 2 scourge chasing it and every now and then you have to Chinese triangle to avoid it killing you. Now while this is happening, there are overlords all over the map and you have to kill them all. Add onto this that there are other players but they only have to micro one corsair, and they are trying to snipe you. Oh wait it doesn't stop there, while you are doing all this you have to keep tab of your mineral count and send at least one corsair back every now and then to your cyber-core to get upgrades or shield battery for repairs. If any one of your corsairs die, they all die and you have to wait a whole minute while the other players get stronger in the mean time. That is playing Meepo. On March 05 2012 22:44 Blennd wrote:On March 05 2012 22:16 sluggaslamoo wrote:On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 15:20 tyCe wrote:On March 05 2012 15:10 Gentso wrote:On March 05 2012 15:04 how2TL wrote:
[quote]
LoL is to DOTA 2 what SC2 is to BW. Watching someone insult LoL while defending SC2 is hilarious. LOL WTFFFF!! With those two sentences you seriously have discredited anything you can say in this thread. LoL is a simple moba without many mechanics. DOTA2 is deep and has many great and unforgiving mechanics. SC2 is extremely fast, a game of seconds, requires lots of high level mechanics, decision making, micro and macro. Seriously the things you guys are saying is RIDICULOUS. I feel like you guys have lost interest in SC2 and that's why suddenly you start bashing it. No, I disagree. I think it is a pretty valid analogy. Sure, LoL is a far easier game than DotA mechanics-wise; but so is SC2 compared with BW. In fact, I would argue that DotA itself is actually a very easy game mechanics-wise compared to BW and SC2, and LoL is even simpler. However, a simple game does not mean that it is a bad game. In fact, the best games in history have all been simpler than their counterparts. I would say that BW > SC2 > DotA > LoL in difficulty is pretty valid, but whichever game is better is a matter of preference. Another similarity is SC2's elimination of "silly" chores of BW, e.g. stacking, manual mining, very limited control grouping, buggy AI, multiple terran building attachments and so forth, and its addition of "extra" strategical depth, e.g. watchtowers, gold bases. LoL has AP (i.e. spellcaster) scaling to allow for lategame spellcasting carries, clear jungle objectives beyond a single Roshan, brush as opposed to unpredictable jungle vision, lower power-curves to allow for reasonable comebacks, less focus on farming etc. A veteran of the respective games may say the new versions lack depth, while fans of the new games will say that their version is simpler, more intuitive and made for a new generation. This is where the word mechanics has too many meanings. You can't compare RTS and MOBA mechanics to each other, only to other games of the same genre. Moba's will never have the same "mechanics" of doing so many things at once and certain timings. The "mechanics" of DOTA aren't about how difficult it is to ACTUALLY play the game, but the design of the rules, heroes, items, and how effective everything is. It's difficult to explain. Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board. Your last sentence is too broad. Games generally are simplified today, but the skill ceiling of well made games is still as high. Good games are made for the hardcore first and then made so that a large audience can grasp it. League was made for the simple audience all along, but that's not to say that the game has far to go in its pro scene development. edit: btw, sorry for replying to things discussions that are going off track of the main topic... I just see ridiculous posts and have the urge to post fact!! I find the gameplay of DotA's Meepo (or Geomancer) to be very similar to playing Starcraft. Which is why hes my favorite character to play. You are farming in 3 different lanes plus creeps all at the same time. Not only that but it is very similar to macroing, micro-ing 3 drops at the same time and then hitting a timing attack once you get a certain level and certain gear. Also your builds and play-style may be quite reactive depending on what the other team has. Meepo can either be a powerful disabler/nuker mid-game, or ridiculous carry late game. If you can actually multitask that well, you will have be the strongest carry (+ disabler) lategame, since Meepo is balanced for the normal dota player who doesn't farm in 4 different areas, when you actually do this meepo becomes like a 3/3 BW mech terran army and you are Flash compared to everyone else. You can literally take out entire teams and towers on your own after a certain point. Although this is not easy to do either, if have played bisu style PvZ in BW that helps A LOT, and will give you a massive advantage over other players who will probably never ever be close to your level of multitask, but expect to be farming 2 areas max and dying a lot until you get good at him. There are a quite a few multitask intensive characters (meepo being the most multitasking heavy), using mind-controlled npcs to take out towers, using the Courier, there's also fighter style characters like the Invoker if you are into that sort of thing. On March 05 2012 15:32 Gentso wrote:
Btw, BW's "mechanics" are WAY overrated on these forums. At the highest level of play, RTS games are won based mostly on decision making because the ability to perform those "chores" are about as high as they get across the board.
Wow, way to be completely wrong about BW. Each core RTS component has a huge effect on the player's ability, and this includes mechanics. Why is it that Flash/Best has such a big army compared to everyone else? Why is it that Jaedongs Mutalisks never die? Why is it that Bisu can micro in 50 places at once with perfect micro and macro? Why is it that Stork only needs one Reaver to end the game? This is all mechanics at work making a huge difference to the game. Of course I haven't even touched the effect of Starsense (or Maphacks if you are Flash) or Strategy at this point. Players like Movie/Reality/Stork/SaviOr who have abysmal APM (low 200's) and have to create amazing strategies every game. You just proved his point. Lol, no I didn't re-read his post and mine. He said games are won basically on decision making and implied that everyone has roughly the same mechanics. I'm saying the opposite. There are some people with abysmal mechanics, and some people with great mechanics, for some mechanics wins the game on its own, and for some its the opposite. Don't know how you find it as hard as BW. -_-" I find it much easier than SC2 and BW mechanically. Well first point, is are you farming in 4 different places at once? I've never seen a pubber do this, bit some top amateurs (pro-am) though will to a certain extent (mid-bot 2-2, or 1-1-2 mid-bot-creeps, and very rarely 1-1-1-1 top-bot-mid-creeps if they are uber gosu). I used to practise with high level pubbers as well because for some reason there's a massive DotA scene in Melbourne. A while ago any Lan cafe you go to would be full of dota players, every single computer had someone playing dota on it, there would be maybe 1 or 2 guys in a 60 pc room playing Battlefield or something, the rest dota, maybe kinda akin to what BW was in PC Bangs in Korea? Although not so much now, we have quite a few more people playing WoW/HoN now. I guess maybe because you played WC3 as well as BW. I am not as in tune with keeping units alive as much as WC3 players are, but I find having to focus on many different things not that difficult at all. For example building turrets while macroing, while checking upgrades, while micro-ing vultures and laying mines while siege pushing and splitting/walling the map. All this stuff is easy to learn because its always the same and there's no risk, I generally never go over 500 minerals even on 3 bases and always doing something with my units, but whats harder to learn is actually focused multitasking, I am not so great at keeping corsairs alive, while I'm microing Reavers DT's. On March 05 2012 23:13 Goose- wrote:
LoL just aims on a different public. SC2 is just not rewarding for the casual gamer whereas LoL is. I quit playing SC2 & bw because it just takes too much time/effort to play it at a decent level. LoL on the contrary is very rewarding for people like myself, who got a job & other stuff to do that just don't have the time to play 24/7. Even if you only play a few hours a week, you'll still have the feeling that you're doing ok and let's be honest that's what most people want x).
On top of it LoL-team is just way smarter than blizzard when it comes down to commercial stuff. They actually put effort in trying to make their game shine. Unlike blizzard they also follow the scene so they know way better what their costumers want. I've never seen blizzard asking for much feedback whereas LoL asks for feedback for every patch they implement (which is about every 1-2 months).
That's what people said about SC2, until the casuals stopped playing and the players got good. Eventually that time will come for LoL also, and you will have to be really good at the game just to not get hated on. Just like DotA 1 is right now. I have played WC3,BW,SC2. It may be that I have played WC3 before and in WC3 you have to keep your units alive unlike SC which you can effort to lose some unit. I do 2-2 and 1-1-1-1 sometimes when I feel my opponents are pretty bad. I play in cafe in Thailand. Dota is really popular here. You may be surprised if you see cafe in Thailand:D. There's many young kids(8-12 years old) that can play Dota at reasonable level(can be pub stomper). They really love the game. I believe that the difficulty of Dota game lies in teamwork not mechanic.
Hehe I'm not surprised. Most of the players here are Thai or Vietnamese ^_^, but maybe not as young, mostly teenagers.
Actually I have a really good example of MOBA vs SC2 and skill. Wen was a top DotA player who got rank #1 GM in SEA and held top 3 for quite a while I used to practise with him a lot and was my brother's [real life] friend. He was only around 16-17 at the time I think. Although his playstyle was very different, very micro-oriented, all his units would never die and have ridiculous kill ratings, like 1 Immortal with 3 forcefields around it soloing Zerglings, his VoidRay micro was also the best I had ever seen. His 3 gate Stargate vs Terran was really really scary, apparently he had never lost in that matchup.
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why, Wonki, why? 
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On March 05 2012 23:17 sluggaslamoo wrote:
That's what people said about SC2, until the casuals stopped playing and the players got good. Eventually that time will come for LoL also, and you will have to be really good at the game just to not get hated on. Just like DotA 1 is right now.
LoL has been around for more than 2 years so I don't see how this argument could be valid. And there will always be haters who'll blame their team for their own lack of skill. That's the main disadvantage of LoL with sc2. The fact that you will have a whiner in your team once in a while, something that won't happen when you play 1v1 in sc2 .
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On March 05 2012 23:13 Goose- wrote:
LoL just aims on a different public. SC2 is just not rewarding for the casual gamer whereas LoL is. I quit playing SC2 & bw because it just takes too much time/effort to play it at a decent level. LoL on the contrary is very rewarding for people like myself, who got a job & other stuff to do that just don't have the time to play 24/7. Even if you only play a few hours a week, you'll still have the feeling that you're doing ok and let's be honest that's what most people want x).
On top of it LoL-team is just way smarter than blizzard when it comes down to commercial stuff. They actually put effort in trying to make their game shine. Unlike blizzard they also follow the scene so they know way better what their costumers want. I've never seen blizzard asking for much feedback whereas LoL asks for feedback for every patch they implement (which is about every 1-2 months).
I agree , besides being completely free , LOL is just much more easier for casual gamers...
It´s like playing COD or Quake 3 / Aq2 , i played action quake 2 that was an awesome game and some Q3 , when cod came everyone loved it because its much easier than Cs 1.6 and Quake games , so more players..
All my close friends that bought SC2 , 4 dont play anymore , 4 play just custom games or 4v4 league .. I am the only one who still plays 1v1
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Enjoy your retirement fruitdealer.
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this makes me so sad
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Kinda sad, but we all saw that coming. Best of luck there Fruitdealer.
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EPT
