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On March 06 2012 01:49 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 01:47 Odal wrote:On March 06 2012 01:46 Noocta wrote:On March 06 2012 01:44 Hakanfrog wrote:
Why is everyone hating on LoL?
I love Starcraft, but I can´t play it to relax. When I play Starcraft, I have to be 100% focused, when I play LoL I can relax and have fun. Maybe that´s the reason for the hate, but people do get lonely from just practicing 8 hours a day, it gets stressful with all the pressure to succeed. People can't take a game you can play so casualy as a serious e-sport game. That's why. If you didn't already know, we are ( as the starcraft community ) the most masochist gamers on the internet. Pro game should not be fun and casual, they should be hard and extremely challenging. I know tons of people that play team games and ums games casually, does this make sc2 less of an esport? I fully realize you are being sarcastic btw. That's because it's not 1v1 i guess. It's like if Summoner Rift was really hard and competitive, and Dominion very casual and fun. ( i guess you could see it that way )
At the highest levels it is, I mean bw had a casual scene on the blizz servers with people playing ums and bgh and shit, it doesn't make it any less of an esport. Shit, tons of people had fun just playing with their friends in normal games even if they sucked. Accesibility is almost entirely irrelevant.
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On March 06 2012 01:31 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 01:28 Xalorian wrote:On March 06 2012 01:02 Odal wrote:On March 05 2012 23:00 Naniwa wrote:On March 05 2012 22:45 Odal wrote:On March 05 2012 22:37 noD wrote:On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote:
Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever. They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition ...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL User was warned for this post Huh? Please explain to me how your practice 8 hours a day is any different from lol pros playing 8 hours a day? Simply put : Don't be completly retarded, think for a second and play 8 hours a day and you will become good quickly, even if you never played another MOBA or RTS before. And by quickly I mean... a month or less? And that is, without never watching tutorial, being coached by someone else or even watching any games or replay at all. Now, start SC2 from scratch, no RTS background and without ... even by playing 8 hours a day, you will not become good. It will be looooong. Actually, you will probably not be able to figure out everything by yourself and you will need to search for tips, for vods, for tutorial or even coach... you will have to analyse our own replay and etc... or it will pretty much take you a year or more to even get into master league. And master league is not even close to be really good yet. SC2 just take more dedication, time, training... etc. It's a fact. That does not mean that LoL is a worst game or anything... but be serious for a second... SC2 is way harder... the same way that BW is harder than SC2. How is it a fact that you need more dedication time or training to be the best in sc2 compared to lol?
You and you're team (for LoL) become coordinated with each other at some point of training...after that...the only thing that really changes is item builds / lane & team compositions / a few other minuscule things. However, picking your items / lane & team compositions...is something that requires 0 skill(and some knowledge)....because you're not executing anything...once you have decided, you're done. There is no altering your team composition/items on the fly(for the most part, since selling results in a loss of gold). So basically then all you're comparing is the actions within the game. So decision making is pretty much all there is to it...and because you are given the items/composition of the other team almost 100% of the time...there are far fewer factors to manage, with respect to SC2, and its requires much less mechanical skill to accomplish basically anything in LoL then in SC2.
I am not a pro in either, but i follow both competitive scenes closely and I've (at some point in time) been in the top 1%~ of both games. Multiple LoL professionals have said they think SC2 is harder than LoL, but the only SC2 player to say otherwise is Destiny(and he is TERRIBLE at LoL).
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On March 06 2012 01:46 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 01:44 Hakanfrog wrote:
Why is everyone hating on LoL?
I love Starcraft, but I can´t play it to relax. When I play Starcraft, I have to be 100% focused, when I play LoL I can relax and have fun. Maybe that´s the reason for the hate, but people do get lonely from just practicing 8 hours a day, it gets stressful with all the pressure to succeed. People can't take a game you can play so casualy as a serious e-sport game. That's why. If you didn't already know, we are ( as the starcraft community ) the most masochist gamers on the internet. A Pro game should not be fun and casual, it should be hard and extremely challenging.
I like both games, but for different reasons. Who cares if the game is so easy, sure it doesn´t have any mechancical difficulty, but if people like watching it, why shouldn´t it be an esport?
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D: FruitDealer, ... I was still hoping 
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On March 06 2012 02:05 Hakanfrog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 01:46 Noocta wrote:On March 06 2012 01:44 Hakanfrog wrote:
Why is everyone hating on LoL?
I love Starcraft, but I can´t play it to relax. When I play Starcraft, I have to be 100% focused, when I play LoL I can relax and have fun. Maybe that´s the reason for the hate, but people do get lonely from just practicing 8 hours a day, it gets stressful with all the pressure to succeed. People can't take a game you can play so casualy as a serious e-sport game. That's why. If you didn't already know, we are ( as the starcraft community ) the most masochist gamers on the internet. A Pro game should not be fun and casual, it should be hard and extremely challenging. I like both games, but for different reasons. Who cares if the game is so easy, sure it doesn´t have any mechancical difficulty, but if people like watching it, why shouldn´t it be an esport?
I said it's what most people think of LoL.
I don't personnaly care. In my opinion LoL will probably die because of the amateurism of proplayers, the fact that mainly Riot is paying for the tournaments and because Valve are too awsome for not winning in the end. But that's my personnal opinion here.
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On March 06 2012 02:04 LITTLEHEAD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2012 01:31 Odal wrote:On March 06 2012 01:28 Xalorian wrote:On March 06 2012 01:02 Odal wrote:On March 05 2012 23:00 Naniwa wrote:On March 05 2012 22:45 Odal wrote:On March 05 2012 22:37 noD wrote:On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote:
Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever. They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition ...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL User was warned for this post Huh? Please explain to me how your practice 8 hours a day is any different from lol pros playing 8 hours a day? Simply put : Don't be completly retarded, think for a second and play 8 hours a day and you will become good quickly, even if you never played another MOBA or RTS before. And by quickly I mean... a month or less? And that is, without never watching tutorial, being coached by someone else or even watching any games or replay at all. Now, start SC2 from scratch, no RTS background and without ... even by playing 8 hours a day, you will not become good. It will be looooong. Actually, you will probably not be able to figure out everything by yourself and you will need to search for tips, for vods, for tutorial or even coach... you will have to analyse our own replay and etc... or it will pretty much take you a year or more to even get into master league. And master league is not even close to be really good yet. SC2 just take more dedication, time, training... etc. It's a fact. That does not mean that LoL is a worst game or anything... but be serious for a second... SC2 is way harder... the same way that BW is harder than SC2. How is it a fact that you need more dedication time or training to be the best in sc2 compared to lol? I am not a pro in either, but i follow both competitive scenes closely and I've (at some point in time) been in the top 1%~ of both games. Multiple LoL professionals have said they think SC2 is harder than LoL, but the only SC2 player to say otherwise is Destiny(and he is TERRIBLE at LoL).
So...no chance of seeing Destiny become EG's LoL coach?
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On March 06 2012 02:10 Sub40APM wrote:
So...no chance of seeing Destiny become EG's LoL coach?
You never know O.o
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im not naniwa fan... but I agree with him... you can play 8 hours a day 1month any game and you become a very good player... you can play 8 hours a day sc2 1month 2months ... and even so you need to watch replays, learn some strats etc.
And... FruitDealer, I start playing sc2 thanks to him back in blizzcon 2010 showmatch vs BoxeR. There is no zerg with similar style . I hope he comes back to sc2 =(
and sorry my english is not perfect 
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Although it's really sad to see him go since he was the reason I stuck to playing Zerg since his run in GSL Open Season 1, but good luck to Fruitdealer and his team
He always has been my Zerg hope and his GSL win will still live on though! Pretty sad to see him go...
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I'll put this out and then no more on this topic
Dyrus (lol pro) streaming at this very moment: 21 716 viewers
All streams which includes non sc2 streams combined (119 streams!) on TL from the top bar (no events going on according to sidebar): 22 334 viewers
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Vancouver14381 Posts
Since I don't really have another thread to post this idea, I'll just throw it in here.
The main difference between the growth of SC2 and LoL/Dota2 is in the casual fanbase. Some casual players may eventually get serious about the game and try to go pro and become a new talent - larger playerbase = potential for larger profession scene. This is one of the main reasons a lot of people thought SC2 would kill off BW in the first place since a lot of the amateur players would switch over to SC2 and leave the BW scene stagnant.
As to why I think the growth of SC2 isn't as high as it could be - casual players like to play SC2 because they can control big armies. But often times they're cut short because of all-ins and risky early game strats so that's why we get a lot of forum posts complaining about them. In LoL/Dota2, you usually control 1 unit for most of the time (some heroes can get up to ~20) so there is never a complaint of not being able to get to the 'end game'. Balance can be an issue for both types of games but I find people place their blame on different things. In LoL/Dota2, a hero/champion might be a really strong carry late game but the blame falls on your team because you messed up on the ban/pick phase - you could have banned that hero/champ or picked a lineup that punishes their early game so the other team has no chance to come back. In SC2, the blame goes to the opponents and Blizzard - 'oh, how could you abuse that really strong strat' or 'Blizzard can't balance for shit in XvX'.
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You and you're team (for LoL) become coordinated with each other at some point of training...after that...the only thing that really changes is item builds / lane & team compositions / a few other minuscule things. However, picking your items / lane & team compositions...is something that requires 0 skill(and some knowledge)....because you're not executing anything...once you have decided, you're done. There is no altering your team composition/items on the fly(for the most part, since selling results in a loss of gold). So basically then all you're comparing is the actions within the game. So decision making is pretty much all there is to it...and because you are given the items/composition of the other team almost 100% of the time...there are far fewer factors to manage, with respect to SC2, and its requires much less mechanical skill to accomplish basically anything in LoL then in SC2.
I am not a pro in either, but i follow both competitive scenes closely and I've (at some point in time) been in the top 1%~ of both games. Multiple LoL professionals have said they think SC2 is harder than LoL, but the only SC2 player to say otherwise is Destiny(and he is TERRIBLE at LoL).
A few of these statements are just flat wrong.
A match starts with bans so that you won't be able to play your best champ if the other team knows you at all. You then have to counter pick each lane and jungler when a match starts. That means being better than proficient at multiple champions (typically why pro's play as AP carry, jungler, etc. - not as one specific champion).
Once the game starts, yes, there is one simple mechanic of last hitting (I will agree this is a simple macro mechanic, which makes LoL easier to pick up, but at pro levels macro is a non issue in RTS). The rest is entirely strategic. Your team has to win dragon which usually means a team fight, and the execution of each ability in these team fights can drastically change who will win the game. You also have to maintain your own objective blue and red buffs, which can be stolen so you need constant/good map awareness. Once everyone has leveled enough, Baron becomes the next most important objective to control and take, and can make or break a game.
Objectives aside, you have to be fairly amateurish to think there is no dynamic aspect of item builds. There are five people on the other team trying to counter your team. That means you have to pick the right items in combo with the right champs on your team, and quite often this leads to a high degree of variability in the items each player gets in each match. That doesn't mean there aren't core items (usually three on carry's, but high variance on tank/support/jungler), so a lot of the items are never the "get this every match", they are responsive to the enemy team comp/item build and your champions specific strengths. And while it isn't common to sell items right now, its becoming a lot more common late game when the gold is available and teams need a different edge on one another.
So decision making is pretty much all there is to it
Isn't this the point of every RTS? and if yes, why bother comparing when they all boil down to this?
Every pro who commentates any RTS are constantly analyzing their decisions (and those of their teammates), not mechanics (unless something is going very wrong), and those decisions are the only interesting part of these games (at least to me).
I'm not trying to say LoL is harder than SC2 or that it is better, I'm saying least refrain from comparing because they rely on different sets of decisions making, and yes, are entirely different games.
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Fruitdealer took his money and ran.
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So BW fans bash SC2, now SC2 fans bash LoL.
What a vicious cycle of beatings for the "new kids on the block".
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On March 06 2012 05:56 Zdrastochye wrote:
So BW fans bash SC2, now SC2 fans bash LoL.
What a vicious cycle of beatings for the "new kids on the block".
I'm kinda afraid at the idea of a game which LoL fans will bash on.
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This is kind of sad. Would have been awesome to see him dedicate himself completely to Starcraft 2 and maybe make a comeback.
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he was good when noone else was good, now he can't compete with the top so he switched to the easier game, makes sense.
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Fruitdealer is/was a nonfactor in SC2, idk why u give him somuch attention
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On March 06 2012 05:51 Ferric wrote:Show nested quote +
You and you're team (for LoL) become coordinated with each other at some point of training...after that...the only thing that really changes is item builds / lane & team compositions / a few other minuscule things. However, picking your items / lane & team compositions...is something that requires 0 skill(and some knowledge)....because you're not executing anything...once you have decided, you're done. There is no altering your team composition/items on the fly(for the most part, since selling results in a loss of gold). So basically then all you're comparing is the actions within the game. So decision making is pretty much all there is to it...and because you are given the items/composition of the other team almost 100% of the time...there are far fewer factors to manage, with respect to SC2, and its requires much less mechanical skill to accomplish basically anything in LoL then in SC2.
I am not a pro in either, but i follow both competitive scenes closely and I've (at some point in time) been in the top 1%~ of both games. Multiple LoL professionals have said they think SC2 is harder than LoL, but the only SC2 player to say otherwise is Destiny(and he is TERRIBLE at LoL).
A few of these statements are just flat wrong. A match starts with bans so that you won't be able to play your best champ if the other team knows you at all. You then have to counter pick each lane and jungler when a match starts. That means being better than proficient at multiple champions (typically why pro's play as AP carry, jungler, etc. - not as one specific champion). Once the game starts, yes, there is one simple mechanic of last hitting (I will agree this is a simple macro mechanic, which makes LoL easier to pick up, but at pro levels macro is a non issue in RTS). The rest is entirely strategic. Your team has to win dragon which usually means a team fight, and the execution of each ability in these team fights can drastically change who will win the game. You also have to maintain your own objective blue and red buffs, which can be stolen so you need constant/good map awareness. Once everyone has leveled enough, Baron becomes the next most important objective to control and take, and can make or break a game. Objectives aside, you have to be fairly amateurish to think there is no dynamic aspect of item builds. There are five people on the other team trying to counter your team. That means you have to pick the right items in combo with the right champs on your team, and quite often this leads to a high degree of variability in the items each player gets in each match. That doesn't mean there aren't core items (usually three on carry's, but high variance on tank/support/jungler), so a lot of the items are never the "get this every match", they are responsive to the enemy team comp/item build and your champions specific strengths. And while it isn't common to sell items right now, its becoming a lot more common late game when the gold is available and teams need a different edge on one another. Isn't this the point of every RTS? and if yes, why bother comparing when they all boil down to this? Every pro who commentates any RTS are constantly analyzing their decisions (and those of their teammates), not mechanics (unless something is going very wrong), and those decisions are the only interesting part of these games (at least to me). I'm not trying to say LoL is harder than SC2 or that it is better, I'm saying least refrain from comparing because they rely on different sets of decisions making, and yes, are entirely different games.
Riot essentially marketed LoL as an easier version of DOTA. The same way SC2 took BW gameplay and simplified it, LoL took DOTA and simplified it. I won't argue which game is better or worse, that's all based on opinion and preference, but it's pretty concrete which games are harder between DOTA, SC2, LoL. LoL was aimed to be a more casual friendly MOBA, and it's had massive success because of that. They don't try to hide the fact that it's easier, that's their main selling point.
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On March 06 2012 01:02 Odal wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 23:00 Naniwa wrote:On March 05 2012 22:45 Odal wrote:On March 05 2012 22:37 noD wrote:On March 05 2012 13:49 IMoperator wrote:
Let's say I wanted to be a pro at some PC game. Would LoL be a better choice than SC2? Kinda off topic but whatever. They even hold 1kk prizes, so yes it would... also less competition ...Huh? Being a LoL pro is equally as hard as being an sc2 pro. You need to practice with a whole team for many hours a day to stay consistent, and most tournaments have prize pools comparable to or less than sc2, except you're splitting it between 5 guys. LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL User was warned for this post Huh? Please explain to me how your practice 8 hours a day is any different from lol pros playing 8 hours a day?
Naniwa lives in a house with a LoL team, I'm sure he knows a lot about how hard they practice.
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EPT
