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On February 19 2012 09:49 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 04:50 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 04:34 Falconblade wrote:On February 19 2012 04:19 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 03:54 ohampatu wrote:On February 19 2012 03:43 Forikorder wrote:On February 19 2012 03:26 ohampatu wrote:On February 19 2012 03:10 Forikorder wrote:On February 19 2012 02:18 ohampatu wrote:On February 19 2012 01:39 BushidoSnipr wrote:Grubby, the only guy who cares about the fans  GLHF.... But hasn't feast posted more results than Grubby himself? I'm not doubting Grubby's skill, but I'm pretty sure Feast is already pretty damn good Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him. no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100% And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching' well i was never into WC3 at all  Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high. And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics? That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill. That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene. I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile. My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well. And why do you think that because they win Special Olympics, they are not as good as the person who win normal Olympics? Don't you think that if they had the same condition and stuff like normal people, they were gonna be great too? Or the person who win normal Olympic, if they had handicaps, would they still be great? The point is, human always reach their best with the tools that they have available. Just because you're good at sword, that doesn't mean you can win against other best spear fighters, or bow fighters once you switch. Just because no one can beat you in barehand combat, doesn't mean no one can beat you in a sword match, cane match,.v.v.v. Switching from BW to SC2 is like switching from medieval to katana, most of the transition is pretty easy, although there're bumps here and there. But switching from BW to WC3 and vice versa, is like switching from using sword and spear/bow, they are just so different in a lot of way, more than just micro and macro. Sometimes the only thing matters is their own discipline. - Build orders and timing attacks are not relevant in WC3 (some of the popular timing attacks you can usually see are 2nd hero getting level 3, or scroll of healing timing attack, but it also depends greatly how you got harassed and how you are positioned, there's no stim timing attack, no weapon +1 attack (kind of)) - You get punished for having good economy (no upkeep, low upkeep, high upkeep), you have to choose to get bigger army or better economy, since your money is not only being invested in army, but in hero items too. - You don't scout to read build order and tech tree, you scout to read troop movement, hero level and items. You can always tp back when your base is being attacked, but if you get ambushed or creepjacked while your heroes are on low health without town portal scroll, you're pretty much screwed. - Sure, you can see no difference in micro between WC3 and BW players, some BW players even have better micro. Hell, even in WC3, you can't really see the difference in micro between some of top players. But the difference between WC3 micro and SC micro is, SC micro happens in a flash while WC3 micro is all about consistency. An engagement in WC3 may last for 3,4 minutes, and the longer it gets the more exhausted it is to micro. That is why players like Moon is praised to have such good micro because even if he has a bad engagement, after 5 minutes he suddenly wins the battle. The micro is more in depth too. They have to literally turn off autocasting spell to maximize the potential. You don't need your sorceress to autocast slow spell to priests because well, they will spend all the time in battle to heal stuff anyway, they're not gonna run anywhere, or your talon to autocast -5armor spells on units that you don't focus fire. Because the battle lasts very long, it's all about how you conserve your units' mana to do stuffs. The point is, arguing about SC and WC3 is silly, why don't we just enjoy the games as a whole? I used to play and follow WC3 and I enjoyed it, now I'm enjoying SC2, that's all that matters. Again about Grubby and Feast, Grubby clearly doesn't mean he's gonna coach Feast. How do you say this, Grubby is not trying to teach Feast how to get stronger, but to show Feast the way of life, like how to deal with everything, teams, sponsors, organization, travels, the mentality. Calling it mentoring is kind of weird, I guess it's like Grubby will act like a big brother to give advice and everything to Feast.
I thumbs up this post many times over.
Calling out BW vs. WC3 and how things are comparable is asinine. Hell, even calling BW better than WC3 is bullshit. These are games people, and if people think one is harder than the other, they're sorely underestimating the complexity of the other.
And to put it frankly, Grubby dominated. And dominated, and then dominated some more in his field of gaming. He wasn't dethroned by some upstart BW pro. Squeegy suggests some sort of intellectual snobbery by the BW pros thinking, "Hey, WC3 is easy, but BW is the true test of skill, so lets not do the prudent thing and switch making tons of money". Bullshit. BW and WC3 are vastly different, and even if BW pros had switched, there is no guarantee they would have done well. Just because someone is a brilliant Neurosurgeon, it doesn't mean that he'd make a good internal medicine doctor. Neurosurgery is one of the most difficult, but if he were to "downgrade" as you lot derisively imply in regards to WC3, he might be terrible with diagnosis.
Grubby took on the strongest competition, and stayed at the top for a long career, and deserves recognition for that. Hell, even SC2 is considered easier than BW. I see that oGsFin and golden mouse winner July, etc., are doing well in it. No? It's actually a B-teamer in BW in MMA dominating? And Drg? And the rest?
I'm more just incensed about the special olympics comparison. I don't see Phelps beating that armless swimmer from China or wherever in the Olympics should Phelps lose the use of his arms. Vastly different, and honestly, ludicrous and vile argument.
And I'd like to reiterate to DeMu and Grubby should they read this, you're both my two favorite players so I am not against any of you, just really annoyed with this WC3 slamming (despite me having only ever played it once as opposed to BW)
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I never played Warcraft 3 so I cannot judge how great Grubby was. Ofcourse I've read about his results but there's one thing I can tell you from watching his stream from time to time or talking to him. He's a winner. He has got the right mindset and even if he might think about for example imbalances in the game, he tries to think around them, he tries to work on his game and tries to improve.
He has a TON of experience in tournament setups and all around gameplay situations, Feast is very good, but has no where near the experience as Grubby. Grubby can teach him about mindgames, mindset and how to prepare. GL to Feast on his way and Grubby as well, I think its a very good PR for Grubby, but also a good thing to do.
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On February 19 2012 10:17 Falconblade wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:49 canikizu wrote:On February 19 2012 04:50 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 04:34 Falconblade wrote:On February 19 2012 04:19 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 03:54 ohampatu wrote:On February 19 2012 03:43 Forikorder wrote:On February 19 2012 03:26 ohampatu wrote:On February 19 2012 03:10 Forikorder wrote:On February 19 2012 02:18 ohampatu wrote:
[quote]
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him. no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100% And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching' well i was never into WC3 at all Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high. And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics? That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill. That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene. I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile. My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well. And why do you think that because they win Special Olympics, they are not as good as the person who win normal Olympics? Don't you think that if they had the same condition and stuff like normal people, they were gonna be great too? Or the person who win normal Olympic, if they had handicaps, would they still be great? The point is, human always reach their best with the tools that they have available. Just because you're good at sword, that doesn't mean you can win against other best spear fighters, or bow fighters once you switch. Just because no one can beat you in barehand combat, doesn't mean no one can beat you in a sword match, cane match,.v.v.v. Switching from BW to SC2 is like switching from medieval to katana, most of the transition is pretty easy, although there're bumps here and there. But switching from BW to WC3 and vice versa, is like switching from using sword and spear/bow, they are just so different in a lot of way, more than just micro and macro. Sometimes the only thing matters is their own discipline. - Build orders and timing attacks are not relevant in WC3 (some of the popular timing attacks you can usually see are 2nd hero getting level 3, or scroll of healing timing attack, but it also depends greatly how you got harassed and how you are positioned, there's no stim timing attack, no weapon +1 attack (kind of)) - You get punished for having good economy (no upkeep, low upkeep, high upkeep), you have to choose to get bigger army or better economy, since your money is not only being invested in army, but in hero items too. - You don't scout to read build order and tech tree, you scout to read troop movement, hero level and items. You can always tp back when your base is being attacked, but if you get ambushed or creepjacked while your heroes are on low health without town portal scroll, you're pretty much screwed. - Sure, you can see no difference in micro between WC3 and BW players, some BW players even have better micro. Hell, even in WC3, you can't really see the difference in micro between some of top players. But the difference between WC3 micro and SC micro is, SC micro happens in a flash while WC3 micro is all about consistency. An engagement in WC3 may last for 3,4 minutes, and the longer it gets the more exhausted it is to micro. That is why players like Moon is praised to have such good micro because even if he has a bad engagement, after 5 minutes he suddenly wins the battle. The micro is more in depth too. They have to literally turn off autocasting spell to maximize the potential. You don't need your sorceress to autocast slow spell to priests because well, they will spend all the time in battle to heal stuff anyway, they're not gonna run anywhere, or your talon to autocast -5armor spells on units that you don't focus fire. Because the battle lasts very long, it's all about how you conserve your units' mana to do stuffs. The point is, arguing about SC and WC3 is silly, why don't we just enjoy the games as a whole? I used to play and follow WC3 and I enjoyed it, now I'm enjoying SC2, that's all that matters. Again about Grubby and Feast, Grubby clearly doesn't mean he's gonna coach Feast. How do you say this, Grubby is not trying to teach Feast how to get stronger, but to show Feast the way of life, like how to deal with everything, teams, sponsors, organization, travels, the mentality. Calling it mentoring is kind of weird, I guess it's like Grubby will act like a big brother to give advice and everything to Feast. I thumbs up this post many times over. Calling out BW vs. WC3 and how things are comparable is asinine. Hell, even calling BW better than WC3 is bullshit. These are games people, and if people think one is harder than the other, they're sorely underestimating the complexity of the other. And to put it frankly, Grubby dominated. And dominated, and then dominated some more in his field of gaming. He wasn't dethroned by some upstart BW pro. Squeegy suggests some sort of intellectual snobbery by the BW pros thinking, "Hey, WC3 is easy, but BW is the true test of skill, so lets not do the prudent thing and switch making tons of money". Bullshit. BW and WC3 are vastly different, and even if BW pros had switched, there is no guarantee they would have done well. Just because someone is a brilliant Neurosurgeon, it doesn't mean that he'd make a good internal medicine doctor. Neurosurgery is one of the most difficult, but if he were to "downgrade" as you lot derisively imply in regards to WC3, he might be terrible with diagnosis. Grubby took on the strongest competition, and stayed at the top for a long career, and deserves recognition for that. Hell, even SC2 is considered easier than BW. I see that oGsFin and golden mouse winner July, etc., are doing well in it. No? It's actually a B-teamer in BW in MMA dominating? And Drg? And the rest? I'm more just incensed about the special olympics comparison. I don't see Phelps beating that armless swimmer from China or wherever in the Olympics should Phelps lose the use of his arms. Vastly different, and honestly, ludicrous and vile argument. And I'd like to reiterate to DeMu and Grubby should they read this, you're both my two favorite players so I am not against any of you, just really annoyed with this WC3 slamming (despite me having only ever played it once as opposed to BW)
Games tend to be only as hard as the competition allows. And that is of course the point I have to repeat to people like you over and over again. Special Olympics are not comparable to Olympics because the competition isn't as fierce. Getting to study Law at Harvard is harder than getting to study a vocation in a random vocational school because the competition is more fierce. Succeeding in BW is harder than succeeding in WC3 because the competition is more fierce. When it comes to the question which game is harder to be good at, I will vote BW anyday over WC3. But I don't really care to argue about that.
He took on the strongest competition in WC3 and was very succesful. I recognise that and think what he did was of course great. But it's just not that impressive to me when I know the scene wasn't on par with BW. The fact that people seem to make it as big a thing as, say, July's Golden Mouse seems disrespectful to July. To further illustrate my point, yet again via exaggeration (which I repeat is intentional), consider Federer and Grubby. Let us assume for the sake of the argument that they both were the best in their games. I think I am right in saying that most people would find it absurd if you talked of them as equals. Both were the best in their own scenes but as the scenes are not equal, neither are their achievements. That is not to say that Grubby was not great and that his achievements are not worthy of praise. The part about ForGG and July compared to MMA and DRG, well, you can go to the Elephant thread if you wish to discuss that. That point has been explained numerous times already.
I'll explain again. It is the competition in Olympic swimming that is more fierce than competition in Special Olympic swimming. I guarantee you Phelps, given that he had no arms, would do better in Special Olympics than the armless swimmer, given that he had arms, would do in Olympics. Perhaps instead of thinking whether an argument is vile or not you should think about their validity.
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This mentoring thing is just really, really cool. I think it reflects so well on the mindset of this community and its virtues.
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I don't know about this. IMO Feast is at the same level as Grubby, if not above him? Although Grubby is getting better pretty fast lately.
The thread is kinda gay tho. I don't think you need to whore for attention like this.
Edit: Do people really think SCBW had a more competetive/harder scene than wc3?
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On February 19 2012 12:41 Champloo wrote:
Edit: Do people really think SCBW had a more competetive/harder scene than wc3?
Yes, and it still DOES not did.
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On February 19 2012 12:41 Champloo wrote:
I don't know about this. IMO Feast is at the same level as Grubby, if not above him? Although Grubby is getting better pretty fast lately.
The thread is kinda gay tho. I don't think you need to whore for attention like this.
Edit: Do people really think SCBW had a more competetive/harder scene than wc3?
Grubby is not coaching him, Grubby is helping him out with his career aspirations and such things.
And Grubby can post this if he wants, I don't see how it's being an attention whore. He explained his reasoning already and wishes it to be public. And no this thread is not gay because it has nothing to do with being homosexual.
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You're easily one of the top 3 coolest German people alive :D
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
On February 19 2012 17:05 metalshoes wrote:
You're easily one of the top 3 coolest German people alive :D
What on earth has happened to this thread?
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On February 19 2012 17:10 tree.hugger wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 17:05 metalshoes wrote:
You're easily one of the top 3 coolest German people alive :D What on earth has happened to this thread?
LOL everything got lost in translation. I think people have forgotten what they're even talking about
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On February 19 2012 17:05 metalshoes wrote:
You're easily one of the top 3 coolest German people alive :D
I thought grubby was dutch?
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Some people here may want to learn the definition of mentorship.
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Wait, this thread has same text as Ret one :D
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On February 19 2012 19:16 -Archangel- wrote:
Wait, this thread has same text as Ret one :D
yea, Ret just copy pasted the the whole Text and changed it to DeMusliM xD
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This is pretty cool, but dunno if it's really newsworthy :p
At the people saying that Feast is as good as grubby, there are more aspects to it.
Imagine a experienced football/soccer player teaching a 18-20y old talent to become better.
Does he have to teach him how to run/pass? No off course not, but he can learn him how to handle pressure and teach him the tricks that will make him better then the rest.
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On February 19 2012 10:46 Squeegy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:17 Falconblade wrote:On February 19 2012 09:49 canikizu wrote:On February 19 2012 04:50 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 04:34 Falconblade wrote:On February 19 2012 04:19 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 03:54 ohampatu wrote:On February 19 2012 03:43 Forikorder wrote:On February 19 2012 03:26 ohampatu wrote:On February 19 2012 03:10 Forikorder wrote:
[quote]
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100% And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching' well i was never into WC3 at all Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high. And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics? That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill. That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene. I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile. My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well. And why do you think that because they win Special Olympics, they are not as good as the person who win normal Olympics? Don't you think that if they had the same condition and stuff like normal people, they were gonna be great too? Or the person who win normal Olympic, if they had handicaps, would they still be great? The point is, human always reach their best with the tools that they have available. Just because you're good at sword, that doesn't mean you can win against other best spear fighters, or bow fighters once you switch. Just because no one can beat you in barehand combat, doesn't mean no one can beat you in a sword match, cane match,.v.v.v. Switching from BW to SC2 is like switching from medieval to katana, most of the transition is pretty easy, although there're bumps here and there. But switching from BW to WC3 and vice versa, is like switching from using sword and spear/bow, they are just so different in a lot of way, more than just micro and macro. Sometimes the only thing matters is their own discipline. - Build orders and timing attacks are not relevant in WC3 (some of the popular timing attacks you can usually see are 2nd hero getting level 3, or scroll of healing timing attack, but it also depends greatly how you got harassed and how you are positioned, there's no stim timing attack, no weapon +1 attack (kind of)) - You get punished for having good economy (no upkeep, low upkeep, high upkeep), you have to choose to get bigger army or better economy, since your money is not only being invested in army, but in hero items too. - You don't scout to read build order and tech tree, you scout to read troop movement, hero level and items. You can always tp back when your base is being attacked, but if you get ambushed or creepjacked while your heroes are on low health without town portal scroll, you're pretty much screwed. - Sure, you can see no difference in micro between WC3 and BW players, some BW players even have better micro. Hell, even in WC3, you can't really see the difference in micro between some of top players. But the difference between WC3 micro and SC micro is, SC micro happens in a flash while WC3 micro is all about consistency. An engagement in WC3 may last for 3,4 minutes, and the longer it gets the more exhausted it is to micro. That is why players like Moon is praised to have such good micro because even if he has a bad engagement, after 5 minutes he suddenly wins the battle. The micro is more in depth too. They have to literally turn off autocasting spell to maximize the potential. You don't need your sorceress to autocast slow spell to priests because well, they will spend all the time in battle to heal stuff anyway, they're not gonna run anywhere, or your talon to autocast -5armor spells on units that you don't focus fire. Because the battle lasts very long, it's all about how you conserve your units' mana to do stuffs. The point is, arguing about SC and WC3 is silly, why don't we just enjoy the games as a whole? I used to play and follow WC3 and I enjoyed it, now I'm enjoying SC2, that's all that matters. Again about Grubby and Feast, Grubby clearly doesn't mean he's gonna coach Feast. How do you say this, Grubby is not trying to teach Feast how to get stronger, but to show Feast the way of life, like how to deal with everything, teams, sponsors, organization, travels, the mentality. Calling it mentoring is kind of weird, I guess it's like Grubby will act like a big brother to give advice and everything to Feast. I thumbs up this post many times over. Calling out BW vs. WC3 and how things are comparable is asinine. Hell, even calling BW better than WC3 is bullshit. These are games people, and if people think one is harder than the other, they're sorely underestimating the complexity of the other. And to put it frankly, Grubby dominated. And dominated, and then dominated some more in his field of gaming. He wasn't dethroned by some upstart BW pro. Squeegy suggests some sort of intellectual snobbery by the BW pros thinking, "Hey, WC3 is easy, but BW is the true test of skill, so lets not do the prudent thing and switch making tons of money". Bullshit. BW and WC3 are vastly different, and even if BW pros had switched, there is no guarantee they would have done well. Just because someone is a brilliant Neurosurgeon, it doesn't mean that he'd make a good internal medicine doctor. Neurosurgery is one of the most difficult, but if he were to "downgrade" as you lot derisively imply in regards to WC3, he might be terrible with diagnosis. Grubby took on the strongest competition, and stayed at the top for a long career, and deserves recognition for that. Hell, even SC2 is considered easier than BW. I see that oGsFin and golden mouse winner July, etc., are doing well in it. No? It's actually a B-teamer in BW in MMA dominating? And Drg? And the rest? I'm more just incensed about the special olympics comparison. I don't see Phelps beating that armless swimmer from China or wherever in the Olympics should Phelps lose the use of his arms. Vastly different, and honestly, ludicrous and vile argument. And I'd like to reiterate to DeMu and Grubby should they read this, you're both my two favorite players so I am not against any of you, just really annoyed with this WC3 slamming (despite me having only ever played it once as opposed to BW) Games tend to be only as hard as the competition allows. And that is of course the point I have to repeat to people like you over and over again. Special Olympics are not comparable to Olympics because the competition isn't as fierce. Getting to study Law at Harvard is harder than getting to study a vocation in a random vocational school because the competition is more fierce. Succeeding in BW is harder than succeeding in WC3 because the competition is more fierce. When it comes to the question which game is harder to be good at, I will vote BW anyday over WC3. But I don't really care to argue about that. He took on the strongest competition in WC3 and was very succesful. I recognise that and think what he did was of course great. But it's just not that impressive to me when I know the scene wasn't on par with BW. The fact that people seem to make it as big a thing as, say, July's Golden Mouse seems disrespectful to July. To further illustrate my point, yet again via exaggeration (which I repeat is intentional), consider Federer and Grubby. Let us assume for the sake of the argument that they both were the best in their games. I think I am right in saying that most people would find it absurd if you talked of them as equals. Both were the best in their own scenes but as the scenes are not equal, neither are their achievements. That is not to say that Grubby was not great and that his achievements are not worthy of praise. The part about ForGG and July compared to MMA and DRG, well, you can go to the Elephant thread if you wish to discuss that. That point has been explained numerous times already. I'll explain again. It is the competition in Olympic swimming that is more fierce than competition in Special Olympic swimming. I guarantee you Phelps, given that he had no arms, would do better in Special Olympics than the armless swimmer, given that he had arms, would do in Olympics. Perhaps instead of thinking whether an argument is vile or not you should think about their validity.
@squeegy, i understand you very good, but this isnt good. Nadal and Federer are one of the kings of tennis, Phelps is one of the king of swimmer, klitschko is one of the king of box, karabatic is one of the king of handball (player), Bolt in 100m run, the one is the best in y, the in other in x, ...etc.
If you say, football is more difficult than handball or tennis or basketball. Than by your logic, Messi deserve more recognition than Dwane Wade or LeBron James?! This should be not fair/correct! Even in other way. The same amount is the right way.
Compare with 2 very different sports IS always bad like wc3 und sc1. wc3 is a micro-centered, sc1 a macro-centered game.
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WOW! Very altruistic thing to do, Grubby! I can't wait to see how this is approached. Will you be streaming mentoring sessions?
Best of luck!
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I really think 500 euros is too much, but perhaps it's good for esports after all. Good luck with the house.
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On February 19 2012 21:29 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:46 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 10:17 Falconblade wrote:On February 19 2012 09:49 canikizu wrote:On February 19 2012 04:50 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 04:34 Falconblade wrote:On February 19 2012 04:19 Squeegy wrote:On February 19 2012 03:54 ohampatu wrote:On February 19 2012 03:43 Forikorder wrote:On February 19 2012 03:26 ohampatu wrote:
[quote]
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching' well i was never into WC3 at all Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high. And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics? That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill. That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene. I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile. My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well. And why do you think that because they win Special Olympics, they are not as good as the person who win normal Olympics? Don't you think that if they had the same condition and stuff like normal people, they were gonna be great too? Or the person who win normal Olympic, if they had handicaps, would they still be great? The point is, human always reach their best with the tools that they have available. Just because you're good at sword, that doesn't mean you can win against other best spear fighters, or bow fighters once you switch. Just because no one can beat you in barehand combat, doesn't mean no one can beat you in a sword match, cane match,.v.v.v. Switching from BW to SC2 is like switching from medieval to katana, most of the transition is pretty easy, although there're bumps here and there. But switching from BW to WC3 and vice versa, is like switching from using sword and spear/bow, they are just so different in a lot of way, more than just micro and macro. Sometimes the only thing matters is their own discipline. - Build orders and timing attacks are not relevant in WC3 (some of the popular timing attacks you can usually see are 2nd hero getting level 3, or scroll of healing timing attack, but it also depends greatly how you got harassed and how you are positioned, there's no stim timing attack, no weapon +1 attack (kind of)) - You get punished for having good economy (no upkeep, low upkeep, high upkeep), you have to choose to get bigger army or better economy, since your money is not only being invested in army, but in hero items too. - You don't scout to read build order and tech tree, you scout to read troop movement, hero level and items. You can always tp back when your base is being attacked, but if you get ambushed or creepjacked while your heroes are on low health without town portal scroll, you're pretty much screwed. - Sure, you can see no difference in micro between WC3 and BW players, some BW players even have better micro. Hell, even in WC3, you can't really see the difference in micro between some of top players. But the difference between WC3 micro and SC micro is, SC micro happens in a flash while WC3 micro is all about consistency. An engagement in WC3 may last for 3,4 minutes, and the longer it gets the more exhausted it is to micro. That is why players like Moon is praised to have such good micro because even if he has a bad engagement, after 5 minutes he suddenly wins the battle. The micro is more in depth too. They have to literally turn off autocasting spell to maximize the potential. You don't need your sorceress to autocast slow spell to priests because well, they will spend all the time in battle to heal stuff anyway, they're not gonna run anywhere, or your talon to autocast -5armor spells on units that you don't focus fire. Because the battle lasts very long, it's all about how you conserve your units' mana to do stuffs. The point is, arguing about SC and WC3 is silly, why don't we just enjoy the games as a whole? I used to play and follow WC3 and I enjoyed it, now I'm enjoying SC2, that's all that matters. Again about Grubby and Feast, Grubby clearly doesn't mean he's gonna coach Feast. How do you say this, Grubby is not trying to teach Feast how to get stronger, but to show Feast the way of life, like how to deal with everything, teams, sponsors, organization, travels, the mentality. Calling it mentoring is kind of weird, I guess it's like Grubby will act like a big brother to give advice and everything to Feast. I thumbs up this post many times over. Calling out BW vs. WC3 and how things are comparable is asinine. Hell, even calling BW better than WC3 is bullshit. These are games people, and if people think one is harder than the other, they're sorely underestimating the complexity of the other. And to put it frankly, Grubby dominated. And dominated, and then dominated some more in his field of gaming. He wasn't dethroned by some upstart BW pro. Squeegy suggests some sort of intellectual snobbery by the BW pros thinking, "Hey, WC3 is easy, but BW is the true test of skill, so lets not do the prudent thing and switch making tons of money". Bullshit. BW and WC3 are vastly different, and even if BW pros had switched, there is no guarantee they would have done well. Just because someone is a brilliant Neurosurgeon, it doesn't mean that he'd make a good internal medicine doctor. Neurosurgery is one of the most difficult, but if he were to "downgrade" as you lot derisively imply in regards to WC3, he might be terrible with diagnosis. Grubby took on the strongest competition, and stayed at the top for a long career, and deserves recognition for that. Hell, even SC2 is considered easier than BW. I see that oGsFin and golden mouse winner July, etc., are doing well in it. No? It's actually a B-teamer in BW in MMA dominating? And Drg? And the rest? I'm more just incensed about the special olympics comparison. I don't see Phelps beating that armless swimmer from China or wherever in the Olympics should Phelps lose the use of his arms. Vastly different, and honestly, ludicrous and vile argument. And I'd like to reiterate to DeMu and Grubby should they read this, you're both my two favorite players so I am not against any of you, just really annoyed with this WC3 slamming (despite me having only ever played it once as opposed to BW) Games tend to be only as hard as the competition allows. And that is of course the point I have to repeat to people like you over and over again. Special Olympics are not comparable to Olympics because the competition isn't as fierce. Getting to study Law at Harvard is harder than getting to study a vocation in a random vocational school because the competition is more fierce. Succeeding in BW is harder than succeeding in WC3 because the competition is more fierce. When it comes to the question which game is harder to be good at, I will vote BW anyday over WC3. But I don't really care to argue about that. He took on the strongest competition in WC3 and was very succesful. I recognise that and think what he did was of course great. But it's just not that impressive to me when I know the scene wasn't on par with BW. The fact that people seem to make it as big a thing as, say, July's Golden Mouse seems disrespectful to July. To further illustrate my point, yet again via exaggeration (which I repeat is intentional), consider Federer and Grubby. Let us assume for the sake of the argument that they both were the best in their games. I think I am right in saying that most people would find it absurd if you talked of them as equals. Both were the best in their own scenes but as the scenes are not equal, neither are their achievements. That is not to say that Grubby was not great and that his achievements are not worthy of praise. The part about ForGG and July compared to MMA and DRG, well, you can go to the Elephant thread if you wish to discuss that. That point has been explained numerous times already. I'll explain again. It is the competition in Olympic swimming that is more fierce than competition in Special Olympic swimming. I guarantee you Phelps, given that he had no arms, would do better in Special Olympics than the armless swimmer, given that he had arms, would do in Olympics. Perhaps instead of thinking whether an argument is vile or not you should think about their validity. @squeegy, i understand you very good, but this isnt good. Nadal and Federer are one of the kings of tennis, Phelps is one of the king of swimmer, klitschko is one of the king of box, karabatic is one of the king of handball (player), Bolt in 100m run, the one is the best in y, the in other in x, ...etc. If you say, football is more difficult than handball or tennis or basketball. Than by your logic, Messi deserve more recognition than Dwane Wade or LeBron James?! This should be not fair/correct! Even in other way. The same amount is the right way. Compare with 2 very different sports IS always bad like wc3 und sc1. wc3 is a micro-centered, sc1 a macro-centered game.
It gets rather tricky when we get to sports that are global and highly popular. But to an extent, yes, the point stands.
I am the greatest player of Squeegy (it's a sport I just made up). I have played it with my friends and always won. I deserve the same amount of respect as Messi. Does that sound right?
Comparisions can be made even when the games are very different. It just gets harder the larger the scenes are. That is why it is probably impossible to say anything about Messi in comparison to LeBron James. Luckily for us WC3 and BW are rather similar, so the comparison isn't that hard to make. The differences between the games are probably something like between amateur and professional boxing. Or perhaps boxing and kickboxing.
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EPT
