I've been wanting to make a difference in a player's life. Guide his career, help him from experience, tutor a younger, promising person. Someone who is talented, hard-working, friendly and deserving. Perhaps, in the end, I will not make a difference, yet maybe I willy contribute in some small way to the success in their career. Whether this would be through advice in the game itself, or by the eSports management around it. No matter what, the player will have his own fate in his own hands; should be free to make his own decisions; and will always be the main proponent of his own success. The player needs to be motivated, self-sufficient, and to be serious. I just want to help him along a little.
It's important to realize why I am sharing this news with you guys, because some people might think, "what of it?". I do not fault those people for their reactions. I'm ready to devote some time to mentor someone, and I've chosen Feast from Team Millenium. He's pretty young, and could benefit from my experience. From my part, I expect I'll feel satisfaction when I see him do well, though I have no goal or benefit in mind. Incidentally, Feast had helped me when I was new to the SC2 scene when I was not even a decent player yet. He took time to teach me new build orders, walk me through them, analyzed my replays and basically coached me some in the game.
Jeremy "Feast" Vansnick is 18 years old, is finishing up his school in Belgium and is planning to get more time off for his pro-gaming career. He has shown some promise on the international scene, is a well mannered and pretty mature player, and is just a really nice guy.
A small fact sheet.
1. I am not taking Feast away from his team. I have spoken to Millenium and they are happy with the arrangement. 2. There is no financial payment from me to Feast, or from Feast to me. 3. Feast is not in my team. I would like to act as his mentor. 4. Whatever role I will have, it should prove a negligible effect compared to his own performances in all regards. As you can see at some IEM's, he has already displayed a high level of play, for example by Top 8 @ Sao Paolo IEM and beating HerO in IEM Kiev. 5. The reason I'm telling you is to avoid rumors of poaching Feast. I just want to help. 6. You might think of me as Feast's mentor or adviser. Feast is to be my apprentice or 'padawan'.
Also, Follow his Twitch stream to find out when he'll be streaming (he doesn't do this very frequently yet, but may increase the frequency): Feast on Twitch.tv
About me, and about being a solo player: As you may know, I am Manuel "Grubby" Schenkhuizen from the Netherlands. In April 2011, my wife and I have gone independent. Since that time, we have been wondering how we can make a difference in eSports. Throughout my career, countless people have contributed to me reaching the point where I am today. Think about fans, who are at the core of our eSports industry. Think of my opponents, who have unwittingly sharpened my steel by grinding me on the whetstone of defeat. Think of all the people who have helped me, for no other reason than their passion for the game, or their fandom of me. Helping me with opportunities, coaching, game advice, and anything under the sun - often without having a clear benefit from it. I am and have been incredibly grateful for such people. I want to do my part in helping someone in his career, someone who deserves it.
We have hinted at the possibility of hiring players in a traditional team - player sense. It is true that we have considered the acquisition of players, but it was never meant to be in the traditional sense. I've been thinking about the exact how and why, but by now that's besides the point, because we do not have the means, nor the wish, really. Hiring players requires time, money (sponsorships) and experience. Whatever the reasons, I will not be hiring any players in 2012, possibly never. I realize this may come as a bit of a disappointment to some. It may be of no particular significance to others. There might also be a % of people who are surprised, because they thought that was the direction we were headed to. To make it clear, it is challenging enough to engage in an independent career without having the responsibility over other players. A responsibility which I take incredibly seriously. After all, the players I'd want to hire would deserve proper and honest treatment, and good conditions. While I will not be hiring any players into our team, I hope that in this way, I can help Feast in his career as a professional gamer.
i always thought feast reminded me of you grubby :p! this is really awesome, and you're a really nice guy to do this... i hope feast comes out of it with even better skills to display at tournaments
this is a great news... i love ur stream and from watching it and how u interact with everyone, without a doubt u will be a great mentor especially with the amount of experience you had... as for Feast, i love his aggressive playstyle which looks really promising...
would be awaiting anxiously to see how the growth it!
About me, and about being a solo player: As you may know, I am Manuel "Grubby" Schenkhuizen from the Netherlands. In April 2011, my wife and I have gone independent.
Just curious, does this mean that you have enough money to live the rest of your life without working or?
On a side note though, why don't you have plans on actually joining a team? Or is it just because you feel you can cope financially and management wise without one at the moment?
Grubby. You're awesome. I just wanted to say that.
I feel this is a great opportunity for Feast. Even though he is on a team, it will be huge to have an experienced friend to turn to when it comes to contracts and the business side of Esports!
In Sao Polo Feast has stepped up and against the zerg he played he's shown good things like very good multitasks and micro, the use of the warpprism for reinforement in contact of the battle rather than using it as a cute tactic with forcefields, and also avoiding commiting too much in his fights.
But against Real he seemed paralyzed by fear and unable to stick to his plan. That's were you can help him the most, on the mental side of the game. Obviously he'll gain experience from games like this one and the one against MMA, but with an "emotional coach" like you Grubby I'm sure he'll go really far.
btw since Feast is Belgian, do you speak in Dutch together or in English ?
@followgrubby & @MillFeast will merge, just a matter of time until these 2 amazing brotoss will morph into an archon of awesomeness. GL HF!
On February 18 2012 01:17 chuky500 wrote: In Sao Polo Feast has stepped up and against the zerg he played he's shown good things like very good multitasks and micro, the use of the warpprism for reinforement in contact of the battle rather than using it as a cute tactic with forcefields, and also avoiding commiting too much in his fights.
But against Real he seemed paralyzed by fear and unable to stick to his plan. That's were you can help him the most, on the mental side of the game. Obviously he'll gain experience from games like this one and the one against MMA, but with an "emotional coach" like you Grubby I'm sure he'll go really far.
btw since Feast is Belgian, do you speak in Dutch together or in English ?
I think Feast lives in the French-speaking part, at least they spoke English on stream before.
About me, and about being a solo player: As you may know, I am Manuel "Grubby" Schenkhuizen from the Netherlands. In April 2011, my wife and I have gone independent.
Just curious, does this mean that you have enough money to live the rest of your life without working or?
Slightly confused but very curious :D.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Grubby has a loft in New York and billions of dollars on his multidigit number of bank accounts.
I think independant means that he doesn't have a contract with an esports team at the moment.
If anyone wants to know what "transparancy" means, you should probably point them to this post. Still, I expect that there will be a lot of people in Grubby's streamchat going "lol is Feast joining Team Grubby?" -_-
Even if it is not advices regarding the "skill" of Feast, he will definitly need advices for his career. How to deal with the media, how to promote himself, how to get his own sponsors maybe and how to deal with the pressure in general. I don't see anyone more qualified than Grubby for the job !
Awesome news. It'll be good fun to follow an up and coming protoss like Feast. I hope you both benefit from the arrangement and I look forward to seeing his progress.
This is cool but I wish you took a complete noname instead and helped him go pro, woudla been awesome! Feast is already relatively accomplished and has a lot of support from Millenium. Now seeing someone from gold get mentored by grubby and starting to tear shit up woudla been like a cinderalla story.
Grubby you just keep getting cooler and cooler. Very very VERY excited to see how this works out! This is going to be great for Feast, especially with such an experienced person like Grubby, good life choices gogo!
On February 18 2012 02:53 iokke wrote: This is cool but I wish you took a complete noname instead and helped him go pro, woudla been awesome! Feast is already relatively accomplished and has a lot of support from Millenium. Now seeing someone from gold get mentored by grubby and starting to tear shit up woudla been like a cinderalla story.
I completly disagree with this. Someone with the status of Grubby should not go and tutor a gold leaguer as that will be a waste of time, especially in the beginning.
The current deal with Feast seems to be quite brilliant: it helps Feast but at the same time also gives Grubby a great practice partner (or rather said: brainstorm partner) to make builds with and so on; something that you could quite lack when you are living on your own and not on a team.
Good on ya Grubby. Hopefully this works out for both of you.
I know I would be thrilled to be Feast, to have someone who has been around the scene for so long now to help him. Should really benefit him, not just in the game. Id say probably more out of game. Good luck guys!
On February 18 2012 02:53 iokke wrote: This is cool but I wish you took a complete noname instead and helped him go pro, woudla been awesome! Feast is already relatively accomplished and has a lot of support from Millenium. Now seeing someone from gold get mentored by grubby and starting to tear shit up woudla been like a cinderalla story.
I completly disagree with this. Someone with the status of Grubby should not go and tutor a gold leaguer as that will be a waste of time, especially in the beginning.
The current deal with Feast seems to be quite brilliant: it helps Feast but at the same time also gives Grubby a great practice partner (or rather said: brainstorm partner) to make builds with and so on; something that you could quite lack when you are living on your own and not on a team.
yeh it's more of a challenge but thats what makes it more interesting to me. Doesnt have to be gold, can take diamond or masters etc, but a noname (gold = more of a newbie, more of a challenge). You are right in the sense that it would be hard to spot someone who has the passion for the game and will be persistent in his training etc (not quit when he gets bored). But if you do that and get good results, would be much more fun to follow than mentoring an already existing pro.
and someone with Grubby's status doing this is exactly what makes it a beautiful thing
On February 18 2012 02:53 iokke wrote: This is cool but I wish you took a complete noname instead and helped him go pro, woudla been awesome! Feast is already relatively accomplished and has a lot of support from Millenium. Now seeing someone from gold get mentored by grubby and starting to tear shit up woudla been like a cinderalla story.
I completly disagree with this. Someone with the status of Grubby should not go and tutor a gold leaguer as that will be a waste of time, especially in the beginning.
The current deal with Feast seems to be quite brilliant: it helps Feast but at the same time also gives Grubby a great practice partner (or rather said: brainstorm partner) to make builds with and so on; something that you could quite lack when you are living on your own and not on a team.
yeh it's more of a challenge but thats what makes it more interesting to me. Doesnt have to be gold, can take diamond or masters etc, but a noname (gold = more of a newbie, more of a challenge). You are right in the sense that it would be hard to spot someone who has the passion for the game and will be persistent in his training etc (not quit when he gets bored). But if you do that and get good results, would be much more fun to follow than mentoring an already existing pro.
and someone with Grubby's status doing this is exactly what makes it a beautiful thing
No one needs tutoring to go from Gold to Diamond/Low Masters. I think self learning is more than enough, Grubby is really making something incredible here.
This explains the rumours of Feast joining Team Grubby :D Pretty interesting news. I've always had a lot of respect for Grubby, and he was very friendly and nice when I met him at Copenhagen Games.
On February 18 2012 02:53 iokke wrote: This is cool but I wish you took a complete noname instead and helped him go pro, woudla been awesome! Feast is already relatively accomplished and has a lot of support from Millenium. Now seeing someone from gold get mentored by grubby and starting to tear shit up woudla been like a cinderalla story.
I completly disagree with this. Someone with the status of Grubby should not go and tutor a gold leaguer as that will be a waste of time, especially in the beginning.
The current deal with Feast seems to be quite brilliant: it helps Feast but at the same time also gives Grubby a great practice partner (or rather said: brainstorm partner) to make builds with and so on; something that you could quite lack when you are living on your own and not on a team.
yeh it's more of a challenge but thats what makes it more interesting to me. Doesnt have to be gold, can take diamond or masters etc, but a noname (gold = more of a newbie, more of a challenge). You are right in the sense that it would be hard to spot someone who has the passion for the game and will be persistent in his training etc (not quit when he gets bored). But if you do that and get good results, would be much more fun to follow than mentoring an already existing pro.
and someone with Grubby's status doing this is exactly what makes it a beautiful thing
No one needs tutoring to go from Gold to Diamond/Low Masters. I think self learning is more than enough, Grubby is really making something incredible here.
huh? Im sayin take him to be pro, not masters lol. Well anywho mentoring Feast is still nice of grubby, though not extraordinary imo. GL to them anyway, and I still have a ton of respect for Grubby (in case someone got the wrong impression).
On February 18 2012 02:14 zul wrote: I wonder if Grubby will be Obi Wan or the Imperator to his young padawan. Time will tell. " dum dum du du du ...."
Feast (the beast) shows great promise; if not for nerves, I think he'd have beat MMA. And him losing to Real was just .... If you can coach him to get the right mentality, I think he'll be a force to be reckoned with.
On February 18 2012 02:14 zul wrote: I wonder if Grubby will be Obi Wan or the Imperator to his young padawan. Time will tell. " dum dum du du du ...."
On February 18 2012 02:53 iokke wrote: This is cool but I wish you took a complete noname instead and helped him go pro, woudla been awesome! Feast is already relatively accomplished and has a lot of support from Millenium. Now seeing someone from gold get mentored by grubby and starting to tear shit up woudla been like a cinderalla story.
I completly disagree with this. Someone with the status of Grubby should not go and tutor a gold leaguer as that will be a waste of time, especially in the beginning.
The current deal with Feast seems to be quite brilliant: it helps Feast but at the same time also gives Grubby a great practice partner (or rather said: brainstorm partner) to make builds with and so on; something that you could quite lack when you are living on your own and not on a team.
yeh it's more of a challenge but thats what makes it more interesting to me. Doesnt have to be gold, can take diamond or masters etc, but a noname (gold = more of a newbie, more of a challenge). You are right in the sense that it would be hard to spot someone who has the passion for the game and will be persistent in his training etc (not quit when he gets bored). But if you do that and get good results, would be much more fun to follow than mentoring an already existing pro.
and someone with Grubby's status doing this is exactly what makes it a beautiful thing
No one needs tutoring to go from Gold to Diamond/Low Masters. I think self learning is more than enough, Grubby is really making something incredible here.
huh? Im sayin take him to be pro, not masters lol. Well anywho mentoring Feast is still nice of grubby, though not extraordinary imo. GL to them anyway, and I still have a ton of respect for Grubby (in case someone got the wrong impression).
I think you underestimate what it takes to be a progamer. Most of the guys you see atm have been known in other RTS before they made the switch and theres a good reason for that, you have to invest time and dedication before to get the mechanics, there's no reason to coach someone if he is just bad mechanically and it just takes time for him to practice, there's nothing Grubby can help him with that goes beyond "pay attention to whats going on, don't get supply blocked, realize how big an army is when you see it and know if you can beat it or not" etc.
And pretty much everyone is bad mechanically, even in GM league there are many ppl who are just not good enough to be really competitive in tournaments (yet), even if their game knowledge and understanding is great.
I also see this more as a collaboration than strict mentoring/coaching. I think Grubby can help Feast most with his astonishing offline experience and his outside the box thinking. Everything else will benefit them both as players, so its nice that they will work together I think their work together will focus a lot on offline events and Grubby helping him to manage that, having the right mindset, preparing cool builds & brainstorming about the game in general. Can only help Protoss, I don't like that ^^
Feast the beast from the east, being mentored by Grubby.. amazing. That's numerous years of experience that will be taught to him in terms of being a pro-gamer.
this is so heart warming thinking about how unsocial our society has become. its a nice change to read something like this. i wish you both the very very best and maybe one day the apprentice can teach his mentor and pay back his debt
This is great! Feast has shown some real potential and under the guidance of a player as successful as Grubby the potentials are outstanding! I wish both Grubby and Feast the best of luck and hope to see both do very well in the future.
Awesome, Feast is a very very very lucky guy to have someone as experienced, mature, and professional to be his mentor in the RTS scene. Good luck to Grubby and Feast! <3
Grubby is THE man. And it's probably one of the best possible things that could've happened to Feast in his SC2 career. Looking forward to see his improvement and post good results (which he will surely do). Also hope for Grubby to do something big in this year 2012.
Best of luck to both of you guys from a devoted fan.
Really good choice since Feast is pretty good atm! And probably can get better at the game if he puts the effort in it. good luck grubby helping him growing as a player!
Oh my flashback to the days of WC3 with him taking in Rotterdam, sooo awesome.. Feast will do really well, he already kinda reminds me of a young 2004 Grubby. I'm sure this will be a great learning experience for Feast and even for Grubby aswell.
Nice Grubby you are awesome. :-) Atm Incontrol and demuslim make fun of you about being a mentor of feast on the stream (Incontrol). ^.- Demsulim: "It is bullshit" lol...
This is awesome news, with a tons of Grubby experience, Feast can get better in a really quick time. I just wonder how will this affect Grubby's carrier, does it mean he will be focusing less on himself? Anyway, gl hf to both!
oh wow just now demuslim threw so much mud grubby's way for opening this, calling it "complete bullshit" and saying feast told him directly "they just play 2v2 together not much else, and if anything feast is a mentor cuz he helped grubby in the begining"
Until Feast comes up and says "Yar, he be my teacher mon" I'm going to withhold praise for this act. If it's as Demuslim says, then Grubby's trying to puff up his status and that's not cool imo.
This is in no way surprising for me. Through all the years I've followed you there always was something special about you. I don't know entirely what it is but several parts are you having an amazing personality and being an absolutely honest and humble guy, therefore a role model from my point of view. Additionally I always admired you for being such a smart and helpful guy, always open to suggestions and with all the love for your fans. Those are just a few reasons why you are so beloved in the scene. All this comes together in this amazing brand called "Grubby", which is so very well known in the eSports world for a long time.
I wish you both a nice time learning with and from each other. I really look forward to see Feast improve and to watch Grubby skyrocketing in 2012.
if sc2 ever reaches to the heights as normal sports with award shows every year. the big american leagues has these award shows where they hand out achievements to the best players in respective fields. In a future like that there should beb a grubby award
On February 18 2012 08:41 Gentso wrote: Grubby mentioned Feast helping him in the start of his SC2 career in the OP. That's sort of irrelevant.
yeah but he called this actual thread "complete bullshit" and said when he asked feast about the "arrangement" directly that feast denies it in described form, saying "they just play 2v2 together not much else"
Woah thats sick, Grubby and Feast are the two most mannered people. Feast has shown nerve problems as seen in the series against MMA, but Grubby will teach Feast his ways. These two together will be legendary.
On February 18 2012 08:18 IMNasty wrote: demuslim just called out grubby
Where did he do that?
Incontrols stream, basically he said he talked to Feast and he didn't know about this thing. Furthermore in the beginning when Grubby did the switch Feast helped Grubby not the other way around
Wait, Incontrol said that Feast said he didn't know about this? Check Feast's twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/MillFeast. He seems to not only know about it, but be quite okay with it. And if you read the OP, Grubby does mention that Feast helped him out when he first switched to Starcraft 2, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.
Best of luck Feast, I'm sure you have a bright e-sports future with Grubby at your side!
Grubby, I like how you're helping everyone out as much as possible, while still practicing and continuing your own e-sports career. You really do what you love, and what you do is amazing =)
About me, and about being a solo player: As you may know, I am Manuel "Grubby" Schenkhuizen from the Netherlands. In April 2011, my wife and I have gone independent.
Just curious, does this mean that you have enough money to live the rest of your life without working or?
Slightly confused but very curious :D.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Grubby has a loft in New York and billions of dollars on his multidigit number of bank accounts.
I think independant means that he doesn't have a contract with an esports team at the moment.
That's not what independent means at all lol, thanks for the douche sarcasm though.
Seeing as he seems to have enough money to get himself to every event around the world I don't think my question was dumb, maybe I just interpreted your sarcasm the wrong way though x).
EDIT: I'm a huge DeMusliM fan, sounds like a really dumb "rant" or whatever from his part though, Grubby mentioned in the OP that Feast had helped him out, Feast tweeted about this thing so he obviously knows about it. Sounds abit like a bitter thing from WC3 (I didn't play WC3 so I don't know about their history, just a guess).
On February 18 2012 08:18 IMNasty wrote: demuslim just called out grubby
Where did he do that?
Incontrols stream, basically he said he talked to Feast and he didn't know about this thing. Furthermore in the beginning when Grubby did the switch Feast helped Grubby not the other way around
Wait, Incontrol said that Feast said he didn't know about this? Check Feast's twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/MillFeast. He seems to not only know about it, but be quite okay with it. And if you read the OP, Grubby does mention that Feast helped him out when he first switched to Starcraft 2, so I'm not sure why you're bringing it up.
I have no idea what DeMuslim meant.
no, incontrol only brought the subject up on his stream, and asked more about it, correcting machine that this thread wasnt written by some fanboy but by grubby himself.
only after that, demuslim called it "complete bullshit" and so on, saying that if anything feast is a mentor to grubby...
About me, and about being a solo player: As you may know, I am Manuel "Grubby" Schenkhuizen from the Netherlands. In April 2011, my wife and I have gone independent.
Just curious, does this mean that you have enough money to live the rest of your life without working or?
Slightly confused but very curious :D.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Grubby has a loft in New York and billions of dollars on his multidigit number of bank accounts.
I think independant means that he doesn't have a contract with an esports team at the moment.
That's not what independent means at all lol, thanks for the douche sarcasm though.
Seeing as he seems to have enough money to get himself to every event around the world I don't think my question was dumb, maybe I just interpreted your sarcasm the wrong way though x).
Someone sponsors him personally which is why he's in "Team Grubby"
On February 18 2012 08:41 Gentso wrote: Grubby mentioned Feast helping him in the start of his SC2 career in the OP. That's sort of irrelevant.
yeah but he called this actual thread "complete bullshit" and said when he asked feast about the "arrangement" directly that feast denies it in described form, saying "they just play 2v2 together not much else"
etc.
Check Feast's twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/MillFeast. It doesn't sound like he's objecting to this post. Maybe Feast meant that he currently just plays 2v2 with Grubby, and DeMuslim just misunderstood?
EDIT: Why do people keep bringing up that Feast mentored Grubby when Grubby first switched? Grubby isn't denying that -- he mentioned it in the OP. He's just saying that he'd like to use his experience to help Feast instead, now that he can.
About me, and about being a solo player: As you may know, I am Manuel "Grubby" Schenkhuizen from the Netherlands. In April 2011, my wife and I have gone independent.
Just curious, does this mean that you have enough money to live the rest of your life without working or?
Slightly confused but very curious :D.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Grubby has a loft in New York and billions of dollars on his multidigit number of bank accounts.
I think independant means that he doesn't have a contract with an esports team at the moment.
That's not what independent means at all lol, thanks for the douche sarcasm though.
Seeing as he seems to have enough money to get himself to every event around the world I don't think my question was dumb, maybe I just interpreted your sarcasm the wrong way though x).
Someone sponsors him personally which is why he's in "Team Grubby"
I see, any source on this. Also, is there any clear answer to my question about his wording of "independent" haha :D?
On February 18 2012 08:41 Gentso wrote: Grubby mentioned Feast helping him in the start of his SC2 career in the OP. That's sort of irrelevant.
yeah but he called this actual thread "complete bullshit" and said when he asked feast about the "arrangement" directly that feast denies it in described form, saying "they just play 2v2 together not much else"
etc.
EDIT: Why do people keep bringing up that Feast mentored Grubby when Grubby first switched? Grubby isn't denying that -- he mentioned it in the OP. He's just saying that he'd like to use his experience to help Feast instead, now that he can.
because till now it was "feast helped grubby in the beggining", and now it's "if anything feast mentors grubby"
tone of demuslim saying it is what's new and interesting. everybody knew they helped each other out, it's even in the OP
edit: it also shits on the very idea of this partnership, implying grubby is not good enough to mentor feast... i hope you get it now
Just tuned in to InControls stream now to listen to their little smack talk, shit-talking NaNiwa and then going "yeah he's a nice guy though..." and then they smack talk him even more. As I said in my earlier post I'm a huge fan of EG players but they're being pretty damn ridicolous on stream now.
EDIT: Sorry for going off-topic t.t...
GL to Feast and Grubby, nice to see something new!
On February 18 2012 09:02 sereniity wrote: Just tuned in to InControls stream now to listen to their little smack talk, shit-talking NaNiwa like crazy and then going "yeah he's a nice guy though..." and then they smack talk him even more. As I said in my earlier post I'm a huge fan of EG players but they're being pretty damn ridicolous on stream now.
EDIT: Sorry for going off-topic t.t...
GL to Feast and Grubby, nice to see something new!
It might be iNcontroL's stream but there's a lot of people on Skype talking about NaNi that aren't EG people.
Awesome news, hope that this will help Feast reach his full potential as a player. Things like this just reinforce why grubby is one of my favourite players.
On February 18 2012 08:41 Gentso wrote: Grubby mentioned Feast helping him in the start of his SC2 career in the OP. That's sort of irrelevant.
yeah but he called this actual thread "complete bullshit" and said when he asked feast about the "arrangement" directly that feast denies it in described form, saying "they just play 2v2 together not much else"
etc.
EDIT: Why do people keep bringing up that Feast mentored Grubby when Grubby first switched? Grubby isn't denying that -- he mentioned it in the OP. He's just saying that he'd like to use his experience to help Feast instead, now that he can.
because till now it was "feast helped grubby in the beggining", and now it's "if anything feast mentors grubby"
tone of demuslim saying it is what's new and interesting. everybody knew they helped each other out, it's even in the OP
edit: it also shits on the very idea of this partnership, implying grubby is not good enough to mentor feast... i hope you get it now
That seems like a bit of a silly view point But I suppose I consider a coach and a mentor to not neccesarily be the same thing. Perhaps he's not a better player but I think grubby has quite a bit of useful knowledge to share with a young gamer on simply "being a pro".
On February 18 2012 08:41 Gentso wrote: Grubby mentioned Feast helping him in the start of his SC2 career in the OP. That's sort of irrelevant.
yeah but he called this actual thread "complete bullshit" and said when he asked feast about the "arrangement" directly that feast denies it in described form, saying "they just play 2v2 together not much else"
etc.
EDIT: Why do people keep bringing up that Feast mentored Grubby when Grubby first switched? Grubby isn't denying that -- he mentioned it in the OP. He's just saying that he'd like to use his experience to help Feast instead, now that he can.
because till now it was "feast helped grubby in the beggining", and now it's "if anything feast mentors grubby"
tone of demuslim saying it is what's new and interesting. everybody knew they helped each other out, it's even in the OP
edit: it also shits on the very idea of this partnership, implying grubby is not good enough to mentor feast... i hope you get it now
That seems like a bit of a silly view point But I suppose I consider a coach and a mentor to not neccesarily be the same thing. Perhaps he's not a better player but I think grubby has quite a bit of useful knowledge to share with a young gamer on simply "being a pro".
hey, it's not my silly point of view go few pages back, we're talking about demuslim calling this thread "complete bullshit"
On February 18 2012 09:02 sereniity wrote: Just tuned in to InControls stream now to listen to their little smack talk, shit-talking NaNiwa like crazy and then going "yeah he's a nice guy though..." and then they smack talk him even more. As I said in my earlier post I'm a huge fan of EG players but they're being pretty damn ridicolous on stream now.
EDIT: Sorry for going off-topic t.t...
GL to Feast and Grubby, nice to see something new!
It might be iNcontroL's stream but there's a lot of people on Skype talking about NaNi that aren't EG people.
I'm specifically talking about DeMuslim mainly, abit of Catz too which I know isn't related to EG .
Man people care so much bout people spewing couple words my gosh o-o. Anyways, best of luck grubby/feast! gonna make a big impact this year i can feel it :p
WOW, whats funny is that when Feast was playing in Sao Paolo and Kiev my mind went immediately to Grubby. He reminded me of a younger Grubby. Definitely must be one of the reasons Grubby is doing this lol.
On February 18 2012 09:02 sereniity wrote: Just tuned in to InControls stream now to listen to their little smack talk, shit-talking NaNiwa like crazy and then going "yeah he's a nice guy though..." and then they smack talk him even more. As I said in my earlier post I'm a huge fan of EG players but they're being pretty damn ridicolous on stream now.
EDIT: Sorry for going off-topic t.t...
GL to Feast and Grubby, nice to see something new!
On February 18 2012 09:02 sereniity wrote: Just tuned in to InControls stream now to listen to their little smack talk, shit-talking NaNiwa like crazy and then going "yeah he's a nice guy though..." and then they smack talk him even more. As I said in my earlier post I'm a huge fan of EG players but they're being pretty damn ridicolous on stream now.
EDIT: Sorry for going off-topic t.t...
GL to Feast and Grubby, nice to see something new!
On February 18 2012 09:02 sereniity wrote: Just tuned in to InControls stream now to listen to their little smack talk, shit-talking NaNiwa like crazy and then going "yeah he's a nice guy though..." and then they smack talk him even more. As I said in my earlier post I'm a huge fan of EG players but they're being pretty damn ridicolous on stream now.
EDIT: Sorry for going off-topic t.t...
GL to Feast and Grubby, nice to see something new!
go on.
Ya hes exaggerating so hard, I wouldn't even call it shit talking O.o
On February 18 2012 09:02 sereniity wrote: Just tuned in to InControls stream now to listen to their little smack talk, shit-talking NaNiwa like crazy and then going "yeah he's a nice guy though..." and then they smack talk him even more. As I said in my earlier post I'm a huge fan of EG players but they're being pretty damn ridicolous on stream now.
EDIT: Sorry for going off-topic t.t...
GL to Feast and Grubby, nice to see something new!
go on.
Ya hes exaggerating so hard, I wouldn't even call it shit talking O.o
How am I "exaggerating so hard"? It was shit-talking for sure, might've been poor-wording of me to write "shit-talking him like crazy" which I now decided to edit out but it was smack-talking for sure.
EDIT: Naniwa just check out the VOD when it comes up if you want to find out, wouldn't want to spread mis-information x).
But i see why Grubby "chose" him. When i watched him play the these 2 IEMs i cheered for him without even noticing :x Reminded me so much of how i felt in wc3 times when Grubby and 4K owned the shit out of the world's best (beside them :p).
As if Feast wasn't beast enough already... now with Grubby. WOW! :O Listening to Grubby cast NASL makes me respect his knowledge of Protoss a lot, so will be cool to see the effects of this. Look how it went when Boxer the emperor of BW took MMA under his wings. Let's see how it goes when a king of WC3 tutors Feast. :o
On February 18 2012 09:02 sereniity wrote: Just tuned in to InControls stream now to listen to their little smack talk, shit-talking NaNiwa like crazy and then going "yeah he's a nice guy though..." and then they smack talk him even more. As I said in my earlier post I'm a huge fan of EG players but they're being pretty damn ridicolous on stream now.
EDIT: Sorry for going off-topic t.t...
GL to Feast and Grubby, nice to see something new!
go on.
Ya hes exaggerating so hard, I wouldn't even call it shit talking O.o
How am I "exaggerating so hard"? It was shit-talking for sure, might've been poor-wording of me to write "shit-talking him like crazy" which I now decided to edit out but it was smack-talking for sure.
EDIT: Naniwa just check out the VOD when it comes up if you want to find out, wouldn't want to spread mis-information x).
Ya cause thats always cool to fuel drama! lets all fuel drama! yay!
Sounds good, definately a player worth investing in. I would have picked a different player though, someone who is not quite there yet in a big team and at the big stage. Maybe you should have (and could in the near future) consider a serious NL player, I know you're pretty close to some of them, and I seriously believe there are a couple of NL players that would benefit significantly from any sort of project you're going to have with Feast now.
Yes, I am talking about players like Kevin. Feast is only 18 though so it looks like a good shot for the time being, I'd love to see something similar happen with a player like Kevin's calibre/profile, he's young too, and absolutely promising for the upcoming period of time!
things are pretty blown out of proportion - I didn't know a thread was made, it was talked about during the conversation in which i said i spoke to feast and asked if he was grubby's trainee/padawan and described what i meant - and he said it's not what i think, they train together, share strategies and feast helped him out when he first started playing. So how things got to this level, i have no idea. That's pretty much what was said on stream.
Just wanna show my support for Feast. I was quite excited about it when both of them reached this mutual decision last night - Feast needed an eSports manager and Grubby felt he was ready to help guide a younger player along (Grubby's been a progamer for 9 years now, started at a young age just like Feast. He's also grateful to the help he got from people along the way.) Millenium was happy with the arrangement as well, so it was decided that Grubby would be guiding Feast with every aspects of eSports - game, mindset, managing with stress, PR, mentality and more.
Feast being the considerate person he is, told Grubby that if it's taking too much of his time and if he wanna stop at any point in the future, he won't blame Grubby for it. I thought it was a rare quality for such a young guy to be so mature and unassuming. He is a really nice guy who deserves all the help and support he can get to reach his full potential. Feast will be finishing his school soon, and will take at least a year to do professional gaming seriously. Professional gaming is such a hard profession, there's always more than meets the eye - I imagine a young player would need a lot of mental guidance.
Not saying that Feast will definitely succeed or anything, just that now he would always have a more experienced guy to talk to, give him advice, point him to the right direction whenever he needs it. How well he will do will depend on his potential and hardwork.
Last but not least, just hope that everyone would remember that, whatever success or feat Feast has this year or the coming years, it would be due to his own hardwork. Grubby is only there to advise and guide him along - this is a small part to play compared to Feast's own diligence, determination, efforts and perseverance.
Let's show a talented young progamer some love and support! Follow Feast on Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/MillFeast "Like" Feast's Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/MillFeast
On February 18 2012 09:02 sereniity wrote: Just tuned in to InControls stream now to listen to their little smack talk, shit-talking NaNiwa like crazy and then going "yeah he's a nice guy though..." and then they smack talk him even more. As I said in my earlier post I'm a huge fan of EG players but they're being pretty damn ridicolous on stream now.
EDIT: Sorry for going off-topic t.t...
GL to Feast and Grubby, nice to see something new!
go on.
lmao
"lmao" you couldn't write something else?
Anyhow, i think this is just great! And this can only be positive imo.
On February 18 2012 10:48 DeMusliM wrote: things are pretty blown out of proportion - I didn't know a thread was made, it was talked about during the conversation in which i said i spoke to feast and asked if he was grubby's trainee/padawan and described what i meant - and he said it's not what i think, they train together, share strategies and feast helped him out when he first started playing. So how things got to this level, i have no idea. That's pretty much what was said on stream.
Stop ruining the storyline bro.
Grubby Demuslim, WC3, emotional scars, Demuslim Feast, SC2, reliving the nightmare, the Devil cornered, he lashes out
One . man . against the odds. One . chance . for . redemption.
Find out what happens when nerds will have no more.
On February 18 2012 10:48 DeMusliM wrote: things are pretty blown out of proportion - I didn't know a thread was made, it was talked about during the conversation in which i said i spoke to feast and asked if he was grubby's trainee/padawan and described what i meant - and he said it's not what i think, they train together, share strategies and feast helped him out when he first started playing. So how things got to this level, i have no idea. That's pretty much what was said on stream.
Stop ruining the storyline bro.
Grubby Demuslim, WC3, emotional scars, Demuslim Feast, SC2, reliving the nightmare, the Devil cornered, he lashes out
One . man . against the odds. One . chance . for . redemption.
Find out what happens when nerds will have no more.
Coming this February to your world wide interwebz
A has left the game! production
GrubFeast vs Demuslim
SC2, WC3, Worms 3D
Hell,
'bout time
I don't think I'd be the only one willing to shell out $40 for that.
On February 18 2012 10:48 DeMusliM wrote: things are pretty blown out of proportion - I didn't know a thread was made, it was talked about during the conversation in which i said i spoke to feast and asked if he was grubby's trainee/padawan and described what i meant - and he said it's not what i think, they train together, share strategies and feast helped him out when he first started playing. So how things got to this level, i have no idea. That's pretty much what was said on stream.
Stop ruining the storyline bro.
Grubby Demuslim, WC3, emotional scars, Demuslim Feast, SC2, reliving the nightmare, the Devil cornered, he lashes out
One . man . against the odds. One . chance . for . redemption.
Find out what happens when nerds will have no more.
Coming this February to your world wide interwebz
A has left the game! production
GrubFeast vs Demuslim
SC2, WC3, Worms 3D
Hell,
'bout time
I don't think I'd be the only one willing to shell out $40 for that.
Sorry man, didn't you know TL is too poor to afford a $20 ppv weekend? lulz...
Jokes aside i feel like this is a good thing, for Feast as well as for Grubby. Feast has already shown some great performance, as Grubby mentioned, and with Grubby as mentor he can achieve great thinks I think. So gl to Feast
@ all the people who are saying Feast might be the better player, Nowhere does grubby claim in his thread to start teaching SC2 to feast, where do you people get this idea?!? Grubby clearly states he's going to help Feast out mainly with all the things around playing SC2 professionaly...
On February 18 2012 13:15 NachiMe wrote: Just a quick question: why are you Feast's mentor when a significant number of people consider Feast better than you?
You obviously didnt read it. Then you are not allowed to ask questions
As someone who got had his own mentor back when I played badminton competetively I can only applaud what Grubby is doing. My mentor was incredibly helpful and I have several tournament wins to thank him for. Being good at a game is only a part of the recipe to do well, the mental aspect and all the fuzz surrounding a major tournament is a place where it can really make a difference to have someone show you the way. And Grubby is without a doubt one of the most experience ones out there! GL to Feast!
On February 18 2012 13:15 NachiMe wrote: Just a quick question: why are you Feast's mentor when a significant number of people consider Feast better than you?
why is guardiola the trainer when messi plays so much better?
On February 18 2012 13:15 NachiMe wrote: Just a quick question: why are you Feast's mentor when a significant number of people consider Feast better than you?
why is guardiola the trainer when messi plays so much better?
Why is Boxer SlayerS Head Coach, when MMA is so much better at SC2 than him?
So, filtering all "BIG" words out of Grubby post I must say, it's very bad PR move for Millenium. Yea Grubby seams to be good person, willing to help others. He must have tons of experience from his WC3 carer.
But is that mean that Millenium cant promote/help/manage their players good enough? We all know that players play with other, train with other teams. They are talking with other players, about game, about their eSport future, but no one post statements like that.
What is next step? Feast leaving Millenium because his Team have different opinion that Grubby?
On February 18 2012 23:14 frozenrb wrote: So, filtering all "BIG" words out of Grubby post I must say, it's very bad PR move for Millenium. Yea Grubby seams to be good person, willing to help others. He must have tons of experience from his WC3 carer.
But is that mean that Millenium cant promote/help/manage their players good enough? We all know that players play with each other, train with other teams. They are talking with other players, about game, about their eSport future, but no one post statements like that.
What is next step? Feast leaving Millenium because his Team have different opinion that Grubby?
On February 18 2012 23:14 frozenrb wrote: So, filtering all "BIG" words out of Grubby post I must say, it's very bad PR move for Millenium. Yea Grubby seams to be good person, willing to help others. He must have tons of experience from his WC3 carer.
But is that mean that Millenium cant promote/help/manage their players good enough? We all know that players play with each other, train with other teams. They are talking with other players, about game, about their eSport future, but no one post statements like that.
What is next step? Feast leaving Millenium because his Team have different opinion that Grubby?
You are delusional.
I know that Grubby make clear statement: Feast will make his own decisions "No matter what, the player will have his own fate in his own hands"... So why posting such kind of statements when it's just some advices?
On February 19 2012 00:11 Kompicek wrote: I dont really understand those things, ret ,grubby???
Grubby want to help Feast like a mentor. I welcome this. Ret shows in its thread "a partnership" somehow that to have a mentor is silly. I dont know although ret was trying to be a troll or serious man. It doesnt matter, what role ret did, he shows negative characteristics anyway.
On February 19 2012 00:27 Leroyx2 wrote: I kind of looks like Grubby took Ret's post and pasted his name in the spots that Ret was in and Feast in the spots that DeMusliM was in .
LOL are u serious xD go fast, think before posting then delete your post.
On February 18 2012 13:15 NachiMe wrote: Just a quick question: why are you Feast's mentor when a significant number of people consider Feast better than you?
why is guardiola the trainer when messi plays so much better?
Why is Boxer SlayerS Head Coach, when MMA is so much better at SC2 than him?
On February 18 2012 13:15 NachiMe wrote: Just a quick question: why are you Feast's mentor when a significant number of people consider Feast better than you?
why is guardiola the trainer when messi plays so much better?
Why is Boxer SlayerS Head Coach, when MMA is so much better at SC2 than him?
MMA doesn't want to coach maybe? :D
It's still Boxers team. Grubby isn't part of Millenium
On February 18 2012 13:15 NachiMe wrote: Just a quick question: why are you Feast's mentor when a significant number of people consider Feast better than you?
why is guardiola the trainer when messi plays so much better?
Why is Boxer SlayerS Head Coach, when MMA is so much better at SC2 than him?
MMA doesn't want to coach maybe? :D
...it's common sense that when you coach you don't get much practice. There is no team currently with a coach that's better than their ace....
On February 18 2012 13:15 NachiMe wrote: Just a quick question: why are you Feast's mentor when a significant number of people consider Feast better than you?
why is guardiola the trainer when messi plays so much better?
Why is Boxer SlayerS Head Coach, when MMA is so much better at SC2 than him?
MMA doesn't want to coach maybe? :D
...it's common sense that when you coach you don't get much practice. There is no team currently with a coach that's better than their ace....
Who says that Feast wouldn't get much further without Grubby, as he already made it further than Grubby by himself?
On February 18 2012 13:15 NachiMe wrote: Just a quick question: why are you Feast's mentor when a significant number of people consider Feast better than you?
why is guardiola the trainer when messi plays so much better?
Why is Boxer SlayerS Head Coach, when MMA is so much better at SC2 than him?
MMA doesn't want to coach maybe? :D
...it's common sense that when you coach you don't get much practice. There is no team currently with a coach that's better than their ace....
Who says that Feast wouldn't get much further without Grubby, as he already made it further than Grubby by himself?
That's irrelevant. You can say the same about boxer and any of the slayers players. There's still much to be learned about the mental game and many other aspects of being a pro from a veteran such as grubby.
Im bumping your thread Grubby. Why? Because you are an awesome Iconic Figure of Esports and we wouldn't be where we were without people like you. Im sorry Ret made a troll post about you (idk the context or relationship between you 2 so it could be all fun) but wanted to let you know that WE ALL LOVE YOU THE BEST. You are the best streamer (esp for protoss), you do more for your fans than any other stream ive watched, and your sense of humor and good manner is just great.
You and White-Ra should be on a Team together, since your both pretty much 'solo' sorta
On February 19 2012 01:39 BushidoSnipr wrote: Grubby, the only guy who cares about the fans GLHF....
But hasn't feast posted more results than Grubby himself? I'm not doubting Grubby's skill, but I'm pretty sure Feast is already pretty damn good
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
About me, and about being a solo player: As you may know, I am Manuel "Grubby" Schenkhuizen from the Netherlands. In April 2011, my wife and I have gone independent.
Just curious, does this mean that you have enough money to live the rest of your life without working or?
On February 19 2012 00:27 Leroyx2 wrote: I kind of looks like Grubby took Ret's post and pasted his name in the spots that Ret was in and Feast in the spots that DeMusliM was in .
LOL are u serious xD go fast, think before posting then delete your post.
how about grubby win some games before he starts mentoring? this post is awkward. It's a declaration of subordinating a guy that helped him be where he's at (which i dont even know where he's at due to his lack of presence in the sc2 scene)
it'd make sense if he was mentoring some dude for wc3, but sc2? whats going on?
It's important to realize why I am sharing this news with you guys, because some people might think, "what of it?".
Can someone find grubby's answer to this... The stuff after this was kind of wishy washy. I don't know what he meant? Why is he sharing this again?
Here is a post i made on ret's thread (the parody/troll one).
"Grubby streams alot. And seems to stream more and more everyday. Him posting what he would be doing with Feast before starting it essentially stops any future shitstorms when people watch his stream and go 'omg feast leaving millenium'. Letting us know is a good thing, that way there's no confusing. Having everything in context is always good. Grubby doesn't need exposure or to say 'admire me' at all. He has more followers than most progamers put together. Why do you think he is 1 of like 2 people who are directly sponsored and dont have to be part of a full team? Exposure is the least of his worries, people go to him so he can expose them lol"
On February 19 2012 02:41 Lokian wrote: how about grubby win some games before he starts mentoring? this post is awkward. It's a declaration of subordinating a guy that helped him be where he's at (which i dont even know where he's at due to his lack of presence in the sc2 scene)
it'd make sense if he was mentoring some dude for wc3, but sc2? whats going on?
I think the focus of mentoring is the life of a profesional gamer in total.
"lack of presence in the sc2 scene" ??????????? I think you've missed something: P
On February 19 2012 02:41 Lokian wrote: how about grubby win some games before he starts mentoring? this post is awkward. It's a declaration of subordinating a guy that helped him be where he's at (which i dont even know where he's at due to his lack of presence in the sc2 scene)
it'd make sense if he was mentoring some dude for wc3, but sc2? whats going on?
I think the focus of mentoring is the life of a profesional gamer in total.
"lack of presence in the sc2 scene" ??????????? I think you've missed something: P
To Re-Iterate on this. This is not grubby coaching a player, he is mentoring him on all things esports wise from what I gathered. Being a pro gamer is a profession, and theres more to it than just winning matches. Grubbys experience and mentorship will help him enormously. Its like the people who practice with Boxer, even if they are better, they are still getting knowledge/experience that few people can give them. This can only have positive side effects.
On February 19 2012 01:39 BushidoSnipr wrote: Grubby, the only guy who cares about the fans GLHF....
But hasn't feast posted more results than Grubby himself? I'm not doubting Grubby's skill, but I'm pretty sure Feast is already pretty damn good
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
People need to stop thinking that Grubby is only a coach for Feast to increase his skills. I think the main point here is, that Grubby can keep Feast with marketing, how to act in public and stuff like this. These are areas Grubby excels in and they are the main reason Grubby is loved in the SC2 community (atleast I like to believe so). They are also the reasons why he gets invited most of the time and he is just trying to teach theses things to a young player who doesn't know this kind of stuff.
I think ret is just trolling, as the grubbster is a well known certified troll himself.
Tho this is a swift move to prevent any questions concerning Manuel trying to get Feast out of Millenium whilst making some noise around himself, a very good strategic move, helped by Ret's trolling.
I really want to know if Ret did this purposedly and if all of the trolling was planned from the get go...
On February 19 2012 01:39 BushidoSnipr wrote: Grubby, the only guy who cares about the fans GLHF....
But hasn't feast posted more results than Grubby himself? I'm not doubting Grubby's skill, but I'm pretty sure Feast is already pretty damn good
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
On February 19 2012 01:39 BushidoSnipr wrote: Grubby, the only guy who cares about the fans GLHF....
But hasn't feast posted more results than Grubby himself? I'm not doubting Grubby's skill, but I'm pretty sure Feast is already pretty damn good
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
On February 19 2012 01:39 BushidoSnipr wrote: Grubby, the only guy who cares about the fans GLHF....
But hasn't feast posted more results than Grubby himself? I'm not doubting Grubby's skill, but I'm pretty sure Feast is already pretty damn good
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
On February 19 2012 01:39 BushidoSnipr wrote: Grubby, the only guy who cares about the fans GLHF....
But hasn't feast posted more results than Grubby himself? I'm not doubting Grubby's skill, but I'm pretty sure Feast is already pretty damn good
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
On February 19 2012 01:39 BushidoSnipr wrote: Grubby, the only guy who cares about the fans GLHF....
But hasn't feast posted more results than Grubby himself? I'm not doubting Grubby's skill, but I'm pretty sure Feast is already pretty damn good
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
On February 19 2012 01:39 BushidoSnipr wrote: Grubby, the only guy who cares about the fans GLHF....
But hasn't feast posted more results than Grubby himself? I'm not doubting Grubby's skill, but I'm pretty sure Feast is already pretty damn good
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
On February 19 2012 01:39 BushidoSnipr wrote: Grubby, the only guy who cares about the fans GLHF....
But hasn't feast posted more results than Grubby himself? I'm not doubting Grubby's skill, but I'm pretty sure Feast is already pretty damn good
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
How are you to say that Idra and Ret would have done well in WC3? There was no inclination that they would.
Look at it this way, if Idra and Ret, who were mediocre in BW would have done well in WC3, how about all those other B-teamers that were better than Idra and Ret? Why wouldn't they just switch to WC3, and romp their way through, unseat Grubby and sit on his Frozen Throne? BW at a B-team level isn't really that worth it to many.
Mobile phone tossing vs. Football is far too exaggerated.
On February 19 2012 01:39 BushidoSnipr wrote: Grubby, the only guy who cares about the fans GLHF....
But hasn't feast posted more results than Grubby himself? I'm not doubting Grubby's skill, but I'm pretty sure Feast is already pretty damn good
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
Your right. Winning X doesn't equal Winning Y. Your trying to say winning in SC1 is better than winning in WC3, which is true, and you should've just said that off the bat. Again though, your one of those people who seem to think this is a 'coaching' thing. Mentoring doesn't neccesarilly mean coaching. I dont care if you dont appreciate or give Grubby the respect he deserves, but the only person in the world who can teach some of the things Grubby can is Moon. The star BW players always played on homefield, and always against people they knew, dealt with, etc. I keep mentioning International Success because International Success is a big deal. Grubby has had so much of that that he has knowledge few have and can really help players, even if his skill level is equal or lower for the actual game. Grubby has been traveling to different countries, playing under terrible conditions, playing against people he has never met, etc, etc.
I disagree with you on your talk about micro. Grubby has done some blink micro just as well as MC imo, esp at the last HSC4. Go read the LR reports, people were praising him like god on some of his pvz matches. But this is neither here nor now. Just a thread where a iconic esports figure is going to help get a newer rts player some exposure/tips/hints/etc that dont neccesarily rely on Build Orders and shit like that. Being a progamer is about more than just winning your BOx series
For people criticizing whether or not Grubby is worthy of being a mentor to another player in SC2:
The guy was a god in WC3, he's a damn good SC2 player, has his own personal sponsors, and overall seems like a pretty awesome guy. No matter who I am, whether it be NesTea, Feast, or some random scrub, Grubby is a guy that I would be thrilled to have in my corner. As for the post itself, I'm not going to comment. I don't mind him making this post but it is a little bit odd and clearly some people (Ret *cough cough*) seem to have a problem with it.
This whole mentor thing concerns me a little bit because I feel like it might be hinting at somewhat soon retirement from Grubby, which for me would be sad. It just feels like he is trying to leave eSports by doing something he can be proud of, much like many professional athletes retire after winning a championship or something. If he feels like he isn't in the position to win a big championship sometime soon, then making a difference in a young player's life and helping them achieve their dream of being a successful pro player is probably something that he would be proud of, and rightfully so.
On February 19 2012 01:39 BushidoSnipr wrote: Grubby, the only guy who cares about the fans GLHF....
But hasn't feast posted more results than Grubby himself? I'm not doubting Grubby's skill, but I'm pretty sure Feast is already pretty damn good
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
How are you to say that Idra and Ret would have done well in WC3? There was no inclination that they would.
Look at it this way, if Idra and Ret, who were mediocre in BW would have done well in WC3, how about all those other B-teamers that were better than Idra and Ret? Why wouldn't they just switch to WC3, and romp their way through, unseat Grubby and sit on his Frozen Throne? BW at a B-team level isn't really that worth it to many.
Mobile phone tossing vs. Football is far too exaggerated.
Well, the fact that they were at top of foreign BW and it looks to me like foreign BW is about comparable to top WC3.
It's because they see WC3 as the lesser game. They were not interested in it. NHL players could choose to go and play World Cups to get easy money but they don't because it does not mean much to them. The world is full of examples like that. I didn't choose my courses based on what would lead to easy grades either. WC3 wasn't very popular in Korea. Being at B-team level was worth a lot to many. BW is very big in Korea.
It is exaggerated to get the point across. Scenes are not equal. Just because BW is an esport and WC3 is an esport does not mean they are equal.
On February 19 2012 01:39 BushidoSnipr wrote: Grubby, the only guy who cares about the fans GLHF....
But hasn't feast posted more results than Grubby himself? I'm not doubting Grubby's skill, but I'm pretty sure Feast is already pretty damn good
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
Your right. Winning X doesn't equal Winning Y. Your trying to say winning in SC1 is better than winning in WC3, which is true, and you should've just said that off the bat. Again though, your one of those people who seem to think this is a 'coaching' thing. Mentoring doesn't neccesarilly mean coaching. I dont care if you dont appreciate or give Grubby the respect he deserves, but the only person in the world who can teach some of the things Grubby can is Moon. The star BW players always played on homefield, and always against people they knew, dealt with, etc. I keep mentioning International Success because International Success is a big deal. Grubby has had so much of that that he has knowledge few have and can really help players, even if his skill level is equal or lower for the actual game. Grubby has been traveling to different countries, playing under terrible conditions, playing against people he has never met, etc, etc.
I disagree with you on your talk about micro. Grubby has done some blink micro just as well as MC imo, esp at the last HSC4. Go read the LR reports, people were praising him like god on some of his pvz matches. But this is neither here nor now. Just a thread where a iconic esports figure is going to help get a newer rts player some exposure/tips/hints/etc that dont neccesarily rely on Build Orders and shit like that. Being a progamer is about more than just winning your BOx series
I don't think it is a coaching thing and I'm not sure why you would think I think that.
But Grubby knew his opponents, I dare say, just as well as BW pros know theirs. Grubby can probably offer more insight in to adapting to different situations and cultures in that he travelled a lot, I agree. But it doesn't take Grubby to teach that. I am not really sure what kind of knowledge he has in that regard that others don't. You say it is not about the skill but then you say only Grubby and Moon can give that kind of knowledge. What do they have that others in WC3 don't? Results. Do you think their results came from them adapting better to the changing environment perhaps? I would like to think it is because they were better than their opponents. In either case, I am really not sure what he has to teach that others don't (given the info you gave earlier). Care to give a few examples?
But people praise many things like god. I don't take people very seriously when it comes to praising other people. Grubby might have done "some blink micro" that was on par with MC. But that doesn't mean he can do all micro on par with MC. In fact, MC's micro certainly seems better overall. I'm sure the majority would agree with me on this, if you wish to go that road.
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
Your right. Winning X doesn't equal Winning Y. Your trying to say winning in SC1 is better than winning in WC3, which is true, and you should've just said that off the bat. Again though, your one of those people who seem to think this is a 'coaching' thing. Mentoring doesn't neccesarilly mean coaching. I dont care if you dont appreciate or give Grubby the respect he deserves, but the only person in the world who can teach some of the things Grubby can is Moon. The star BW players always played on homefield, and always against people they knew, dealt with, etc. I keep mentioning International Success because International Success is a big deal. Grubby has had so much of that that he has knowledge few have and can really help players, even if his skill level is equal or lower for the actual game. Grubby has been traveling to different countries, playing under terrible conditions, playing against people he has never met, etc, etc.
I disagree with you on your talk about micro. Grubby has done some blink micro just as well as MC imo, esp at the last HSC4. Go read the LR reports, people were praising him like god on some of his pvz matches. But this is neither here nor now. Just a thread where a iconic esports figure is going to help get a newer rts player some exposure/tips/hints/etc that dont neccesarily rely on Build Orders and shit like that. Being a progamer is about more than just winning your BOx series
I don't think it is a coaching thing and I'm not sure why you would think I think that.
But Grubby knew his opponents, I dare say, just as well as BW pros know theirs. Grubby can probably offer more insight in to adapting to different situations and cultures in that he travelled a lot, I agree. But it doesn't take Grubby to teach that. I am not really sure what kind of knowledge he has in that regard that others don't. You say it is not about the skill but then you say only Grubby and Moon can give that kind of knowledge. What do they have that others in WC3 don't? Results. Do you think their results came from them adapting better to the changing environment perhaps? I would like to think it is because they were better than their opponents. In either case, I am really not sure what he has to teach that others don't (given the info you gave earlier). Care to give a few examples?
But people praise many things like god. I don't take people very seriously when it comes to praising other people. Grubby might have done "some blink micro" that was on par with MC. But that doesn't mean he can do all micro on par with MC. In fact, MC's micro certainly seems better overall. I'm sure the majority would agree with me on this, if you wish to go that road.
I would never say Grubby could micro as good as MC, im saying that there are people who have shown at times they have the capability to do it, just possibly not consistently, etc.
On the topic of him being a mentor. Yes, others could do it, and just as well if not better. But the point is that it takes more than just raw talent to do what Grubby did for the WC3 scene. If any of his knowledge gets imparted onto other players, its only a good thing. He could very well learn through experience or through another player etc. But i'll put it this way: There are only 1 of 2 people who are currently self sufficient in SC2: Grubby and White-Ra (mebe not completely self sufficient, but they dont rely on a team at all). That means Grubby is defintely doing something right if he can play independently. As I said in the past who knows how much this will help Feast or what, but there's no denying that Grubby has done pretty good on his career and if he can somehow help out another player then more props to him. Things that come to my mind he could help with: Preplanning for tournies, Traveling Planning, Practice Techniques, Studying Opponents, Adapting to new environments, getting him in touch with higherup people in esports to secure a career, etc. I honestly dont know all and sorry I can't give great examples, but Grubby is doing something right with his life, and if he can help Feast follow in his footsteps all the more power to him
On February 19 2012 03:10 Forikorder wrote: [quote] no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
Your right. Winning X doesn't equal Winning Y. Your trying to say winning in SC1 is better than winning in WC3, which is true, and you should've just said that off the bat. Again though, your one of those people who seem to think this is a 'coaching' thing. Mentoring doesn't neccesarilly mean coaching. I dont care if you dont appreciate or give Grubby the respect he deserves, but the only person in the world who can teach some of the things Grubby can is Moon. The star BW players always played on homefield, and always against people they knew, dealt with, etc. I keep mentioning International Success because International Success is a big deal. Grubby has had so much of that that he has knowledge few have and can really help players, even if his skill level is equal or lower for the actual game. Grubby has been traveling to different countries, playing under terrible conditions, playing against people he has never met, etc, etc.
I disagree with you on your talk about micro. Grubby has done some blink micro just as well as MC imo, esp at the last HSC4. Go read the LR reports, people were praising him like god on some of his pvz matches. But this is neither here nor now. Just a thread where a iconic esports figure is going to help get a newer rts player some exposure/tips/hints/etc that dont neccesarily rely on Build Orders and shit like that. Being a progamer is about more than just winning your BOx series
I don't think it is a coaching thing and I'm not sure why you would think I think that.
But Grubby knew his opponents, I dare say, just as well as BW pros know theirs. Grubby can probably offer more insight in to adapting to different situations and cultures in that he travelled a lot, I agree. But it doesn't take Grubby to teach that. I am not really sure what kind of knowledge he has in that regard that others don't. You say it is not about the skill but then you say only Grubby and Moon can give that kind of knowledge. What do they have that others in WC3 don't? Results. Do you think their results came from them adapting better to the changing environment perhaps? I would like to think it is because they were better than their opponents. In either case, I am really not sure what he has to teach that others don't (given the info you gave earlier). Care to give a few examples?
But people praise many things like god. I don't take people very seriously when it comes to praising other people. Grubby might have done "some blink micro" that was on par with MC. But that doesn't mean he can do all micro on par with MC. In fact, MC's micro certainly seems better overall. I'm sure the majority would agree with me on this, if you wish to go that road.
I would never say Grubby could micro as good as MC, im saying that there are people who have shown at times they have the capability to do it, just possibly not consistently, etc.
On the topic of him being a mentor. Yes, others could do it, and just as well if not better. But the point is that it takes more than just raw talent to do what Grubby did for the WC3 scene. If any of his knowledge gets imparted onto other players, its only a good thing. He could very well learn through experience or through another player etc. But i'll put it this way: There are only 1 of 2 people who are currently self sufficient in SC2: Grubby and White-Ra (mebe not completely self sufficient, but they dont rely on a team at all). That means Grubby is defintely doing something right if he can play independently. As I said in the past who knows how much this will help Feast or what, but there's no denying that Grubby has done pretty good on his career and if he can somehow help out another player then more props to him. Things that come to my mind he could help with: Preplanning for tournies, Traveling Planning, Practice Techniques, Studying Opponents, Adapting to new environments, getting him in touch with higherup people in esports to secure a career, etc. I honestly dont know all and sorry I can't give great examples, but Grubby is doing something right with his life, and if he can help Feast follow in his footsteps all the more power to him
I am not sure why bring it up then.
Of course it takes more than just raw talent. But you specifically said him winning internationally is important (as opposed to BW players who won nationally).
I don't think Grubby has any sponsors, so what he is doing right, I think, is that he won money in the past. If he can find a way to stay relevant, then I would say he is still doing something right. My best guess is that this announcement is an attempt at that, as he seems not to be doing that well as a player so he is adapting to the situation. And I'm sure he can help people with his knowledge. And it is good that he is. But I am not sure given the above criteria what he has to offer that others don't. I am not saying his advice is not useful even if others can offer it too though.
On February 19 2012 01:39 BushidoSnipr wrote: Grubby, the only guy who cares about the fans GLHF....
But hasn't feast posted more results than Grubby himself? I'm not doubting Grubby's skill, but I'm pretty sure Feast is already pretty damn good
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
And why do you think that because they win Special Olympics, they are not as good as the person who win normal Olympics? Don't you think that if they had the same condition and stuff like normal people, they were gonna be great too? Or the person who win normal Olympic, if they had handicaps, would they still be great?
The point is, human always reach their best with the tools that they have available. Just because you're good at sword, that doesn't mean you can win against other best spear fighters, or bow fighters once you switch. Just because no one can beat you in barehand combat, doesn't mean no one can beat you in a sword match, cane match,.v.v.v. Switching from BW to SC2 is like switching from medieval to katana, most of the transition is pretty easy, although there're bumps here and there. But switching from BW to WC3 and vice versa, is like switching from using sword and spear/bow, they are just so different in a lot of way, more than just micro and macro. Sometimes the only thing matters is their own discipline. - Build orders and timing attacks are not relevant in WC3 (some of the popular timing attacks you can usually see are 2nd hero getting level 3, or scroll of healing timing attack, but it also depends greatly how you got harassed and how you are positioned, there's no stim timing attack, no weapon +1 attack (kind of)) - You get punished for having good economy (no upkeep, low upkeep, high upkeep), you have to choose to get bigger army or better economy, since your money is not only being invested in army, but in hero items too. - You don't scout to read build order and tech tree, you scout to read troop movement, hero level and items. You can always tp back when your base is being attacked, but if you get ambushed or creepjacked while your heroes are on low health without town portal scroll, you're pretty much screwed. - Sure, you can see no difference in micro between WC3 and BW players, some BW players even have better micro. Hell, even in WC3, you can't really see the difference in micro between some of top players. But the difference between WC3 micro and SC micro is, SC micro happens in a flash while WC3 micro is all about consistency. An engagement in WC3 may last for 3,4 minutes, and the longer it gets the more exhausted it is to micro. That is why players like Moon is praised to have such good micro because even if he has a bad engagement, after 5 minutes he suddenly wins the battle. The micro is more in depth too. They have to literally turn off autocasting spell to maximize the potential. You don't need your sorceress to autocast slow spell to priests because well, they will spend all the time in battle to heal stuff anyway, they're not gonna run anywhere, or your talon to autocast -5armor spells on units that you don't focus fire. Because the battle lasts very long, it's all about how you conserve your units' mana to do stuffs.
The point is, arguing about SC and WC3 is silly, why don't we just enjoy the games as a whole? I used to play and follow WC3 and I enjoyed it, now I'm enjoying SC2, that's all that matters.
Again about Grubby and Feast, Grubby clearly doesn't mean he's gonna coach Feast. How do you say this, Grubby is not trying to teach Feast how to get stronger, but to show Feast the way of life, like how to deal with everything, teams, sponsors, organization, travels, the mentality. Calling it mentoring is kind of weird, I guess it's like Grubby will act like a big brother to give advice and everything to Feast.
On February 19 2012 01:39 BushidoSnipr wrote: Grubby, the only guy who cares about the fans GLHF....
But hasn't feast posted more results than Grubby himself? I'm not doubting Grubby's skill, but I'm pretty sure Feast is already pretty damn good
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
And why do you think that because they win Special Olympics, they are not as good as the person who win normal Olympics? Don't you think that if they had the same condition and stuff like normal people, they were gonna be great too? Or the person who win normal Olympic, if they had handicaps, would they still be great?
The point is, human always reach their best with the tools that they have available. Just because you're good at sword, that doesn't mean you can win against other best spear fighters, or bow fighters once you switch. Just because no one can beat you in barehand combat, doesn't mean no one can beat you in a sword match, cane match,.v.v.v. Switching from BW to SC2 is like switching from medieval to katana, most of the transition is pretty easy, although there're bumps here and there. But switching from BW to WC3 and vice versa, is like switching from using sword and spear/bow, they are just so different in a lot of way, more than just micro and macro. Sometimes the only thing matters is their own discipline. - Build orders and timing attacks are not relevant in WC3 (some of the popular timing attacks you can usually see are 2nd hero getting level 3, or scroll of healing timing attack, but it also depends greatly how you got harassed and how you are positioned, there's no stim timing attack, no weapon +1 attack (kind of)) - You get punished for having good economy (no upkeep, low upkeep, high upkeep), you have to choose to get bigger army or better economy, since your money is not only being invested in army, but in hero items too. - You don't scout to read build order and tech tree, you scout to read troop movement, hero level and items. You can always tp back when your base is being attacked, but if you get ambushed or creepjacked while your heroes are on low health without town portal scroll, you're pretty much screwed. - Sure, you can see no difference in micro between WC3 and BW players, some BW players even have better micro. Hell, even in WC3, you can't really see the difference in micro between some of top players. But the difference between WC3 micro and SC micro is, SC micro happens in a flash while WC3 micro is all about consistency. An engagement in WC3 may last for 3,4 minutes, and the longer it gets the more exhausted it is to micro. That is why players like Moon is praised to have such good micro because even if he has a bad engagement, after 5 minutes he suddenly wins the battle. The micro is more in depth too. They have to literally turn off autocasting spell to maximize the potential. You don't need your sorceress to autocast slow spell to priests because well, they will spend all the time in battle to heal stuff anyway, they're not gonna run anywhere, or your talon to autocast -5armor spells on units that you don't focus fire. Because the battle lasts very long, it's all about how you conserve your units' mana to do stuffs.
The point is, arguing about SC and WC3 is silly, why don't we just enjoy the games as a whole? I used to play and follow WC3 and I enjoyed it, now I'm enjoying SC2, that's all that matters.
Again about Grubby and Feast, Grubby clearly doesn't mean he's gonna coach Feast. How do you say this, Grubby is not trying to teach Feast how to get stronger, but to show Feast the way of life, like how to deal with everything, teams, sponsors, organization, travels, the mentality. Calling it mentoring is kind of weird, I guess it's like Grubby will act like a big brother to give advice and everything to Feast.
I thumbs up this post many times over.
Calling out BW vs. WC3 and how things are comparable is asinine. Hell, even calling BW better than WC3 is bullshit. These are games people, and if people think one is harder than the other, they're sorely underestimating the complexity of the other.
And to put it frankly, Grubby dominated. And dominated, and then dominated some more in his field of gaming. He wasn't dethroned by some upstart BW pro. Squeegy suggests some sort of intellectual snobbery by the BW pros thinking, "Hey, WC3 is easy, but BW is the true test of skill, so lets not do the prudent thing and switch making tons of money". Bullshit. BW and WC3 are vastly different, and even if BW pros had switched, there is no guarantee they would have done well. Just because someone is a brilliant Neurosurgeon, it doesn't mean that he'd make a good internal medicine doctor. Neurosurgery is one of the most difficult, but if he were to "downgrade" as you lot derisively imply in regards to WC3, he might be terrible with diagnosis.
Grubby took on the strongest competition, and stayed at the top for a long career, and deserves recognition for that. Hell, even SC2 is considered easier than BW. I see that oGsFin and golden mouse winner July, etc., are doing well in it. No? It's actually a B-teamer in BW in MMA dominating? And Drg? And the rest?
I'm more just incensed about the special olympics comparison. I don't see Phelps beating that armless swimmer from China or wherever in the Olympics should Phelps lose the use of his arms. Vastly different, and honestly, ludicrous and vile argument.
And I'd like to reiterate to DeMu and Grubby should they read this, you're both my two favorite players so I am not against any of you, just really annoyed with this WC3 slamming (despite me having only ever played it once as opposed to BW)
I never played Warcraft 3 so I cannot judge how great Grubby was. Ofcourse I've read about his results but there's one thing I can tell you from watching his stream from time to time or talking to him. He's a winner. He has got the right mindset and even if he might think about for example imbalances in the game, he tries to think around them, he tries to work on his game and tries to improve.
He has a TON of experience in tournament setups and all around gameplay situations, Feast is very good, but has no where near the experience as Grubby. Grubby can teach him about mindgames, mindset and how to prepare. GL to Feast on his way and Grubby as well, I think its a very good PR for Grubby, but also a good thing to do.
Having Grubby as a mentor is like having Boxer or White-Ra as a mentor. The person (feast in this case) may have an overall skill level above yours, or better restults, etc. But there are things that you can still be taught, and not many people have Grubby's experience in this manner. If i had the money, i would pay Grubby twice as much as Idra charges to get coached by him.
no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
And why do you think that because they win Special Olympics, they are not as good as the person who win normal Olympics? Don't you think that if they had the same condition and stuff like normal people, they were gonna be great too? Or the person who win normal Olympic, if they had handicaps, would they still be great?
The point is, human always reach their best with the tools that they have available. Just because you're good at sword, that doesn't mean you can win against other best spear fighters, or bow fighters once you switch. Just because no one can beat you in barehand combat, doesn't mean no one can beat you in a sword match, cane match,.v.v.v. Switching from BW to SC2 is like switching from medieval to katana, most of the transition is pretty easy, although there're bumps here and there. But switching from BW to WC3 and vice versa, is like switching from using sword and spear/bow, they are just so different in a lot of way, more than just micro and macro. Sometimes the only thing matters is their own discipline. - Build orders and timing attacks are not relevant in WC3 (some of the popular timing attacks you can usually see are 2nd hero getting level 3, or scroll of healing timing attack, but it also depends greatly how you got harassed and how you are positioned, there's no stim timing attack, no weapon +1 attack (kind of)) - You get punished for having good economy (no upkeep, low upkeep, high upkeep), you have to choose to get bigger army or better economy, since your money is not only being invested in army, but in hero items too. - You don't scout to read build order and tech tree, you scout to read troop movement, hero level and items. You can always tp back when your base is being attacked, but if you get ambushed or creepjacked while your heroes are on low health without town portal scroll, you're pretty much screwed. - Sure, you can see no difference in micro between WC3 and BW players, some BW players even have better micro. Hell, even in WC3, you can't really see the difference in micro between some of top players. But the difference between WC3 micro and SC micro is, SC micro happens in a flash while WC3 micro is all about consistency. An engagement in WC3 may last for 3,4 minutes, and the longer it gets the more exhausted it is to micro. That is why players like Moon is praised to have such good micro because even if he has a bad engagement, after 5 minutes he suddenly wins the battle. The micro is more in depth too. They have to literally turn off autocasting spell to maximize the potential. You don't need your sorceress to autocast slow spell to priests because well, they will spend all the time in battle to heal stuff anyway, they're not gonna run anywhere, or your talon to autocast -5armor spells on units that you don't focus fire. Because the battle lasts very long, it's all about how you conserve your units' mana to do stuffs.
The point is, arguing about SC and WC3 is silly, why don't we just enjoy the games as a whole? I used to play and follow WC3 and I enjoyed it, now I'm enjoying SC2, that's all that matters.
Again about Grubby and Feast, Grubby clearly doesn't mean he's gonna coach Feast. How do you say this, Grubby is not trying to teach Feast how to get stronger, but to show Feast the way of life, like how to deal with everything, teams, sponsors, organization, travels, the mentality. Calling it mentoring is kind of weird, I guess it's like Grubby will act like a big brother to give advice and everything to Feast.
I thumbs up this post many times over.
Calling out BW vs. WC3 and how things are comparable is asinine. Hell, even calling BW better than WC3 is bullshit. These are games people, and if people think one is harder than the other, they're sorely underestimating the complexity of the other.
And to put it frankly, Grubby dominated. And dominated, and then dominated some more in his field of gaming. He wasn't dethroned by some upstart BW pro. Squeegy suggests some sort of intellectual snobbery by the BW pros thinking, "Hey, WC3 is easy, but BW is the true test of skill, so lets not do the prudent thing and switch making tons of money". Bullshit. BW and WC3 are vastly different, and even if BW pros had switched, there is no guarantee they would have done well. Just because someone is a brilliant Neurosurgeon, it doesn't mean that he'd make a good internal medicine doctor. Neurosurgery is one of the most difficult, but if he were to "downgrade" as you lot derisively imply in regards to WC3, he might be terrible with diagnosis.
Grubby took on the strongest competition, and stayed at the top for a long career, and deserves recognition for that. Hell, even SC2 is considered easier than BW. I see that oGsFin and golden mouse winner July, etc., are doing well in it. No? It's actually a B-teamer in BW in MMA dominating? And Drg? And the rest?
I'm more just incensed about the special olympics comparison. I don't see Phelps beating that armless swimmer from China or wherever in the Olympics should Phelps lose the use of his arms. Vastly different, and honestly, ludicrous and vile argument.
And I'd like to reiterate to DeMu and Grubby should they read this, you're both my two favorite players so I am not against any of you, just really annoyed with this WC3 slamming (despite me having only ever played it once as opposed to BW)
Games tend to be only as hard as the competition allows. And that is of course the point I have to repeat to people like you over and over again. Special Olympics are not comparable to Olympics because the competition isn't as fierce. Getting to study Law at Harvard is harder than getting to study a vocation in a random vocational school because the competition is more fierce. Succeeding in BW is harder than succeeding in WC3 because the competition is more fierce. When it comes to the question which game is harder to be good at, I will vote BW anyday over WC3. But I don't really care to argue about that.
He took on the strongest competition in WC3 and was very succesful. I recognise that and think what he did was of course great. But it's just not that impressive to me when I know the scene wasn't on par with BW. The fact that people seem to make it as big a thing as, say, July's Golden Mouse seems disrespectful to July. To further illustrate my point, yet again via exaggeration (which I repeat is intentional), consider Federer and Grubby. Let us assume for the sake of the argument that they both were the best in their games. I think I am right in saying that most people would find it absurd if you talked of them as equals. Both were the best in their own scenes but as the scenes are not equal, neither are their achievements. That is not to say that Grubby was not great and that his achievements are not worthy of praise. The part about ForGG and July compared to MMA and DRG, well, you can go to the Elephant thread if you wish to discuss that. That point has been explained numerous times already.
I'll explain again. It is the competition in Olympic swimming that is more fierce than competition in Special Olympic swimming. I guarantee you Phelps, given that he had no arms, would do better in Special Olympics than the armless swimmer, given that he had arms, would do in Olympics. Perhaps instead of thinking whether an argument is vile or not you should think about their validity.
On February 19 2012 12:41 Champloo wrote: I don't know about this. IMO Feast is at the same level as Grubby, if not above him? Although Grubby is getting better pretty fast lately.
The thread is kinda gay tho. I don't think you need to whore for attention like this.
Edit: Do people really think SCBW had a more competetive/harder scene than wc3?
Grubby is not coaching him, Grubby is helping him out with his career aspirations and such things.
And Grubby can post this if he wants, I don't see how it's being an attention whore. He explained his reasoning already and wishes it to be public. And no this thread is not gay because it has nothing to do with being homosexual.
This is pretty cool, but dunno if it's really newsworthy :p
At the people saying that Feast is as good as grubby, there are more aspects to it.
Imagine a experienced football/soccer player teaching a 18-20y old talent to become better. Does he have to teach him how to run/pass? No off course not, but he can learn him how to handle pressure and teach him the tricks that will make him better then the rest.
On February 19 2012 03:10 Forikorder wrote: [quote] no its not, BoxeR was Bonjwa in SC he had amazing world top skills and is passing those on to the younger generation
BoxeR can menter becuase he has skills higher then the people hes mentering, hes jsut gotten older and cant quite perform at 100%
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
And why do you think that because they win Special Olympics, they are not as good as the person who win normal Olympics? Don't you think that if they had the same condition and stuff like normal people, they were gonna be great too? Or the person who win normal Olympic, if they had handicaps, would they still be great?
The point is, human always reach their best with the tools that they have available. Just because you're good at sword, that doesn't mean you can win against other best spear fighters, or bow fighters once you switch. Just because no one can beat you in barehand combat, doesn't mean no one can beat you in a sword match, cane match,.v.v.v. Switching from BW to SC2 is like switching from medieval to katana, most of the transition is pretty easy, although there're bumps here and there. But switching from BW to WC3 and vice versa, is like switching from using sword and spear/bow, they are just so different in a lot of way, more than just micro and macro. Sometimes the only thing matters is their own discipline. - Build orders and timing attacks are not relevant in WC3 (some of the popular timing attacks you can usually see are 2nd hero getting level 3, or scroll of healing timing attack, but it also depends greatly how you got harassed and how you are positioned, there's no stim timing attack, no weapon +1 attack (kind of)) - You get punished for having good economy (no upkeep, low upkeep, high upkeep), you have to choose to get bigger army or better economy, since your money is not only being invested in army, but in hero items too. - You don't scout to read build order and tech tree, you scout to read troop movement, hero level and items. You can always tp back when your base is being attacked, but if you get ambushed or creepjacked while your heroes are on low health without town portal scroll, you're pretty much screwed. - Sure, you can see no difference in micro between WC3 and BW players, some BW players even have better micro. Hell, even in WC3, you can't really see the difference in micro between some of top players. But the difference between WC3 micro and SC micro is, SC micro happens in a flash while WC3 micro is all about consistency. An engagement in WC3 may last for 3,4 minutes, and the longer it gets the more exhausted it is to micro. That is why players like Moon is praised to have such good micro because even if he has a bad engagement, after 5 minutes he suddenly wins the battle. The micro is more in depth too. They have to literally turn off autocasting spell to maximize the potential. You don't need your sorceress to autocast slow spell to priests because well, they will spend all the time in battle to heal stuff anyway, they're not gonna run anywhere, or your talon to autocast -5armor spells on units that you don't focus fire. Because the battle lasts very long, it's all about how you conserve your units' mana to do stuffs.
The point is, arguing about SC and WC3 is silly, why don't we just enjoy the games as a whole? I used to play and follow WC3 and I enjoyed it, now I'm enjoying SC2, that's all that matters.
Again about Grubby and Feast, Grubby clearly doesn't mean he's gonna coach Feast. How do you say this, Grubby is not trying to teach Feast how to get stronger, but to show Feast the way of life, like how to deal with everything, teams, sponsors, organization, travels, the mentality. Calling it mentoring is kind of weird, I guess it's like Grubby will act like a big brother to give advice and everything to Feast.
I thumbs up this post many times over.
Calling out BW vs. WC3 and how things are comparable is asinine. Hell, even calling BW better than WC3 is bullshit. These are games people, and if people think one is harder than the other, they're sorely underestimating the complexity of the other.
And to put it frankly, Grubby dominated. And dominated, and then dominated some more in his field of gaming. He wasn't dethroned by some upstart BW pro. Squeegy suggests some sort of intellectual snobbery by the BW pros thinking, "Hey, WC3 is easy, but BW is the true test of skill, so lets not do the prudent thing and switch making tons of money". Bullshit. BW and WC3 are vastly different, and even if BW pros had switched, there is no guarantee they would have done well. Just because someone is a brilliant Neurosurgeon, it doesn't mean that he'd make a good internal medicine doctor. Neurosurgery is one of the most difficult, but if he were to "downgrade" as you lot derisively imply in regards to WC3, he might be terrible with diagnosis.
Grubby took on the strongest competition, and stayed at the top for a long career, and deserves recognition for that. Hell, even SC2 is considered easier than BW. I see that oGsFin and golden mouse winner July, etc., are doing well in it. No? It's actually a B-teamer in BW in MMA dominating? And Drg? And the rest?
I'm more just incensed about the special olympics comparison. I don't see Phelps beating that armless swimmer from China or wherever in the Olympics should Phelps lose the use of his arms. Vastly different, and honestly, ludicrous and vile argument.
And I'd like to reiterate to DeMu and Grubby should they read this, you're both my two favorite players so I am not against any of you, just really annoyed with this WC3 slamming (despite me having only ever played it once as opposed to BW)
Games tend to be only as hard as the competition allows. And that is of course the point I have to repeat to people like you over and over again. Special Olympics are not comparable to Olympics because the competition isn't as fierce. Getting to study Law at Harvard is harder than getting to study a vocation in a random vocational school because the competition is more fierce. Succeeding in BW is harder than succeeding in WC3 because the competition is more fierce. When it comes to the question which game is harder to be good at, I will vote BW anyday over WC3. But I don't really care to argue about that.
He took on the strongest competition in WC3 and was very succesful. I recognise that and think what he did was of course great. But it's just not that impressive to me when I know the scene wasn't on par with BW. The fact that people seem to make it as big a thing as, say, July's Golden Mouse seems disrespectful to July. To further illustrate my point, yet again via exaggeration (which I repeat is intentional), consider Federer and Grubby. Let us assume for the sake of the argument that they both were the best in their games. I think I am right in saying that most people would find it absurd if you talked of them as equals. Both were the best in their own scenes but as the scenes are not equal, neither are their achievements. That is not to say that Grubby was not great and that his achievements are not worthy of praise. The part about ForGG and July compared to MMA and DRG, well, you can go to the Elephant thread if you wish to discuss that. That point has been explained numerous times already.
I'll explain again. It is the competition in Olympic swimming that is more fierce than competition in Special Olympic swimming. I guarantee you Phelps, given that he had no arms, would do better in Special Olympics than the armless swimmer, given that he had arms, would do in Olympics. Perhaps instead of thinking whether an argument is vile or not you should think about their validity.
@squeegy, i understand you very good, but this isnt good. Nadal and Federer are one of the kings of tennis, Phelps is one of the king of swimmer, klitschko is one of the king of box, karabatic is one of the king of handball (player), Bolt in 100m run, the one is the best in y, the in other in x, ...etc.
If you say, football is more difficult than handball or tennis or basketball. Than by your logic, Messi deserve more recognition than Dwane Wade or LeBron James?! This should be not fair/correct! Even in other way. The same amount is the right way.
Compare with 2 very different sports IS always bad like wc3 und sc1. wc3 is a micro-centered, sc1 a macro-centered game.
And Grubby was a Bonjwa of WC3, and is only rivaled by Moon in having the most international success of any esport figure (read: international). The wealth of knowledge and experience Grubby can give is immense. You are confusing yourself. Grubby isn't coaching him, he will be mentoring him on numerous different topics. I agree Boxer is prolly a better coach (although in defense he wasn't' the coach of slayers untill just recently). Your blind Boxer fanboyism is making you miss what is actually being said. My point still stands
edit: Just like the dude 2 posts above said 'this isn't coaching'
well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
And why do you think that because they win Special Olympics, they are not as good as the person who win normal Olympics? Don't you think that if they had the same condition and stuff like normal people, they were gonna be great too? Or the person who win normal Olympic, if they had handicaps, would they still be great?
The point is, human always reach their best with the tools that they have available. Just because you're good at sword, that doesn't mean you can win against other best spear fighters, or bow fighters once you switch. Just because no one can beat you in barehand combat, doesn't mean no one can beat you in a sword match, cane match,.v.v.v. Switching from BW to SC2 is like switching from medieval to katana, most of the transition is pretty easy, although there're bumps here and there. But switching from BW to WC3 and vice versa, is like switching from using sword and spear/bow, they are just so different in a lot of way, more than just micro and macro. Sometimes the only thing matters is their own discipline. - Build orders and timing attacks are not relevant in WC3 (some of the popular timing attacks you can usually see are 2nd hero getting level 3, or scroll of healing timing attack, but it also depends greatly how you got harassed and how you are positioned, there's no stim timing attack, no weapon +1 attack (kind of)) - You get punished for having good economy (no upkeep, low upkeep, high upkeep), you have to choose to get bigger army or better economy, since your money is not only being invested in army, but in hero items too. - You don't scout to read build order and tech tree, you scout to read troop movement, hero level and items. You can always tp back when your base is being attacked, but if you get ambushed or creepjacked while your heroes are on low health without town portal scroll, you're pretty much screwed. - Sure, you can see no difference in micro between WC3 and BW players, some BW players even have better micro. Hell, even in WC3, you can't really see the difference in micro between some of top players. But the difference between WC3 micro and SC micro is, SC micro happens in a flash while WC3 micro is all about consistency. An engagement in WC3 may last for 3,4 minutes, and the longer it gets the more exhausted it is to micro. That is why players like Moon is praised to have such good micro because even if he has a bad engagement, after 5 minutes he suddenly wins the battle. The micro is more in depth too. They have to literally turn off autocasting spell to maximize the potential. You don't need your sorceress to autocast slow spell to priests because well, they will spend all the time in battle to heal stuff anyway, they're not gonna run anywhere, or your talon to autocast -5armor spells on units that you don't focus fire. Because the battle lasts very long, it's all about how you conserve your units' mana to do stuffs.
The point is, arguing about SC and WC3 is silly, why don't we just enjoy the games as a whole? I used to play and follow WC3 and I enjoyed it, now I'm enjoying SC2, that's all that matters.
Again about Grubby and Feast, Grubby clearly doesn't mean he's gonna coach Feast. How do you say this, Grubby is not trying to teach Feast how to get stronger, but to show Feast the way of life, like how to deal with everything, teams, sponsors, organization, travels, the mentality. Calling it mentoring is kind of weird, I guess it's like Grubby will act like a big brother to give advice and everything to Feast.
I thumbs up this post many times over.
Calling out BW vs. WC3 and how things are comparable is asinine. Hell, even calling BW better than WC3 is bullshit. These are games people, and if people think one is harder than the other, they're sorely underestimating the complexity of the other.
And to put it frankly, Grubby dominated. And dominated, and then dominated some more in his field of gaming. He wasn't dethroned by some upstart BW pro. Squeegy suggests some sort of intellectual snobbery by the BW pros thinking, "Hey, WC3 is easy, but BW is the true test of skill, so lets not do the prudent thing and switch making tons of money". Bullshit. BW and WC3 are vastly different, and even if BW pros had switched, there is no guarantee they would have done well. Just because someone is a brilliant Neurosurgeon, it doesn't mean that he'd make a good internal medicine doctor. Neurosurgery is one of the most difficult, but if he were to "downgrade" as you lot derisively imply in regards to WC3, he might be terrible with diagnosis.
Grubby took on the strongest competition, and stayed at the top for a long career, and deserves recognition for that. Hell, even SC2 is considered easier than BW. I see that oGsFin and golden mouse winner July, etc., are doing well in it. No? It's actually a B-teamer in BW in MMA dominating? And Drg? And the rest?
I'm more just incensed about the special olympics comparison. I don't see Phelps beating that armless swimmer from China or wherever in the Olympics should Phelps lose the use of his arms. Vastly different, and honestly, ludicrous and vile argument.
And I'd like to reiterate to DeMu and Grubby should they read this, you're both my two favorite players so I am not against any of you, just really annoyed with this WC3 slamming (despite me having only ever played it once as opposed to BW)
Games tend to be only as hard as the competition allows. And that is of course the point I have to repeat to people like you over and over again. Special Olympics are not comparable to Olympics because the competition isn't as fierce. Getting to study Law at Harvard is harder than getting to study a vocation in a random vocational school because the competition is more fierce. Succeeding in BW is harder than succeeding in WC3 because the competition is more fierce. When it comes to the question which game is harder to be good at, I will vote BW anyday over WC3. But I don't really care to argue about that.
He took on the strongest competition in WC3 and was very succesful. I recognise that and think what he did was of course great. But it's just not that impressive to me when I know the scene wasn't on par with BW. The fact that people seem to make it as big a thing as, say, July's Golden Mouse seems disrespectful to July. To further illustrate my point, yet again via exaggeration (which I repeat is intentional), consider Federer and Grubby. Let us assume for the sake of the argument that they both were the best in their games. I think I am right in saying that most people would find it absurd if you talked of them as equals. Both were the best in their own scenes but as the scenes are not equal, neither are their achievements. That is not to say that Grubby was not great and that his achievements are not worthy of praise. The part about ForGG and July compared to MMA and DRG, well, you can go to the Elephant thread if you wish to discuss that. That point has been explained numerous times already.
I'll explain again. It is the competition in Olympic swimming that is more fierce than competition in Special Olympic swimming. I guarantee you Phelps, given that he had no arms, would do better in Special Olympics than the armless swimmer, given that he had arms, would do in Olympics. Perhaps instead of thinking whether an argument is vile or not you should think about their validity.
@squeegy, i understand you very good, but this isnt good. Nadal and Federer are one of the kings of tennis, Phelps is one of the king of swimmer, klitschko is one of the king of box, karabatic is one of the king of handball (player), Bolt in 100m run, the one is the best in y, the in other in x, ...etc.
If you say, football is more difficult than handball or tennis or basketball. Than by your logic, Messi deserve more recognition than Dwane Wade or LeBron James?! This should be not fair/correct! Even in other way. The same amount is the right way.
Compare with 2 very different sports IS always bad like wc3 und sc1. wc3 is a micro-centered, sc1 a macro-centered game.
It gets rather tricky when we get to sports that are global and highly popular. But to an extent, yes, the point stands.
I am the greatest player of Squeegy (it's a sport I just made up). I have played it with my friends and always won. I deserve the same amount of respect as Messi. Does that sound right?
Comparisions can be made even when the games are very different. It just gets harder the larger the scenes are. That is why it is probably impossible to say anything about Messi in comparison to LeBron James. Luckily for us WC3 and BW are rather similar, so the comparison isn't that hard to make. The differences between the games are probably something like between amateur and professional boxing. Or perhaps boxing and kickboxing.
On February 19 2012 03:43 Forikorder wrote: [quote] well i was never into WC3 at all
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
And why do you think that because they win Special Olympics, they are not as good as the person who win normal Olympics? Don't you think that if they had the same condition and stuff like normal people, they were gonna be great too? Or the person who win normal Olympic, if they had handicaps, would they still be great?
The point is, human always reach their best with the tools that they have available. Just because you're good at sword, that doesn't mean you can win against other best spear fighters, or bow fighters once you switch. Just because no one can beat you in barehand combat, doesn't mean no one can beat you in a sword match, cane match,.v.v.v. Switching from BW to SC2 is like switching from medieval to katana, most of the transition is pretty easy, although there're bumps here and there. But switching from BW to WC3 and vice versa, is like switching from using sword and spear/bow, they are just so different in a lot of way, more than just micro and macro. Sometimes the only thing matters is their own discipline. - Build orders and timing attacks are not relevant in WC3 (some of the popular timing attacks you can usually see are 2nd hero getting level 3, or scroll of healing timing attack, but it also depends greatly how you got harassed and how you are positioned, there's no stim timing attack, no weapon +1 attack (kind of)) - You get punished for having good economy (no upkeep, low upkeep, high upkeep), you have to choose to get bigger army or better economy, since your money is not only being invested in army, but in hero items too. - You don't scout to read build order and tech tree, you scout to read troop movement, hero level and items. You can always tp back when your base is being attacked, but if you get ambushed or creepjacked while your heroes are on low health without town portal scroll, you're pretty much screwed. - Sure, you can see no difference in micro between WC3 and BW players, some BW players even have better micro. Hell, even in WC3, you can't really see the difference in micro between some of top players. But the difference between WC3 micro and SC micro is, SC micro happens in a flash while WC3 micro is all about consistency. An engagement in WC3 may last for 3,4 minutes, and the longer it gets the more exhausted it is to micro. That is why players like Moon is praised to have such good micro because even if he has a bad engagement, after 5 minutes he suddenly wins the battle. The micro is more in depth too. They have to literally turn off autocasting spell to maximize the potential. You don't need your sorceress to autocast slow spell to priests because well, they will spend all the time in battle to heal stuff anyway, they're not gonna run anywhere, or your talon to autocast -5armor spells on units that you don't focus fire. Because the battle lasts very long, it's all about how you conserve your units' mana to do stuffs.
The point is, arguing about SC and WC3 is silly, why don't we just enjoy the games as a whole? I used to play and follow WC3 and I enjoyed it, now I'm enjoying SC2, that's all that matters.
Again about Grubby and Feast, Grubby clearly doesn't mean he's gonna coach Feast. How do you say this, Grubby is not trying to teach Feast how to get stronger, but to show Feast the way of life, like how to deal with everything, teams, sponsors, organization, travels, the mentality. Calling it mentoring is kind of weird, I guess it's like Grubby will act like a big brother to give advice and everything to Feast.
I thumbs up this post many times over.
Calling out BW vs. WC3 and how things are comparable is asinine. Hell, even calling BW better than WC3 is bullshit. These are games people, and if people think one is harder than the other, they're sorely underestimating the complexity of the other.
And to put it frankly, Grubby dominated. And dominated, and then dominated some more in his field of gaming. He wasn't dethroned by some upstart BW pro. Squeegy suggests some sort of intellectual snobbery by the BW pros thinking, "Hey, WC3 is easy, but BW is the true test of skill, so lets not do the prudent thing and switch making tons of money". Bullshit. BW and WC3 are vastly different, and even if BW pros had switched, there is no guarantee they would have done well. Just because someone is a brilliant Neurosurgeon, it doesn't mean that he'd make a good internal medicine doctor. Neurosurgery is one of the most difficult, but if he were to "downgrade" as you lot derisively imply in regards to WC3, he might be terrible with diagnosis.
Grubby took on the strongest competition, and stayed at the top for a long career, and deserves recognition for that. Hell, even SC2 is considered easier than BW. I see that oGsFin and golden mouse winner July, etc., are doing well in it. No? It's actually a B-teamer in BW in MMA dominating? And Drg? And the rest?
I'm more just incensed about the special olympics comparison. I don't see Phelps beating that armless swimmer from China or wherever in the Olympics should Phelps lose the use of his arms. Vastly different, and honestly, ludicrous and vile argument.
And I'd like to reiterate to DeMu and Grubby should they read this, you're both my two favorite players so I am not against any of you, just really annoyed with this WC3 slamming (despite me having only ever played it once as opposed to BW)
Games tend to be only as hard as the competition allows. And that is of course the point I have to repeat to people like you over and over again. Special Olympics are not comparable to Olympics because the competition isn't as fierce. Getting to study Law at Harvard is harder than getting to study a vocation in a random vocational school because the competition is more fierce. Succeeding in BW is harder than succeeding in WC3 because the competition is more fierce. When it comes to the question which game is harder to be good at, I will vote BW anyday over WC3. But I don't really care to argue about that.
He took on the strongest competition in WC3 and was very succesful. I recognise that and think what he did was of course great. But it's just not that impressive to me when I know the scene wasn't on par with BW. The fact that people seem to make it as big a thing as, say, July's Golden Mouse seems disrespectful to July. To further illustrate my point, yet again via exaggeration (which I repeat is intentional), consider Federer and Grubby. Let us assume for the sake of the argument that they both were the best in their games. I think I am right in saying that most people would find it absurd if you talked of them as equals. Both were the best in their own scenes but as the scenes are not equal, neither are their achievements. That is not to say that Grubby was not great and that his achievements are not worthy of praise. The part about ForGG and July compared to MMA and DRG, well, you can go to the Elephant thread if you wish to discuss that. That point has been explained numerous times already.
I'll explain again. It is the competition in Olympic swimming that is more fierce than competition in Special Olympic swimming. I guarantee you Phelps, given that he had no arms, would do better in Special Olympics than the armless swimmer, given that he had arms, would do in Olympics. Perhaps instead of thinking whether an argument is vile or not you should think about their validity.
@squeegy, i understand you very good, but this isnt good. Nadal and Federer are one of the kings of tennis, Phelps is one of the king of swimmer, klitschko is one of the king of box, karabatic is one of the king of handball (player), Bolt in 100m run, the one is the best in y, the in other in x, ...etc.
If you say, football is more difficult than handball or tennis or basketball. Than by your logic, Messi deserve more recognition than Dwane Wade or LeBron James?! This should be not fair/correct! Even in other way. The same amount is the right way.
Compare with 2 very different sports IS always bad like wc3 und sc1. wc3 is a micro-centered, sc1 a macro-centered game.
It gets rather tricky when we get to sports that are global and highly popular. But to an extent, yes, the point stands.
I am the greatest player of Squeegy (it's a sport I just made up). I have played it with my friends and always won. I deserve the same amount of respect as Messi. Does that sound right?
Comparisions can be made even when the games are very different. It just gets harder the larger the scenes are. That is why it is probably impossible to say anything about Messi in comparison to LeBron James. Luckily for us WC3 and BW are rather similar, so the comparison isn't that hard to make. The differences between the games are probably something like between amateur and professional boxing. Or perhaps boxing and kickboxing.
I don't think Messi deserve more respect that anybody else in general. He deserve more respect with regards to his discipline (soccer), but not with regard to something else. Like if he would come and talk to me about physics, I wouldn't have any respect for him.
So yeah, Grubby has some things to say when talking about WC3, Messi about soccer and you about Squeegy. Unfortunately, nobody is playing Squeegy so your skills won't be very useful.
I don't really know how you set up the scale for comparing one sport to another. Is it based on number of players, money, prize pool, number of professional, total time played, something else ?
I don't really think it makes much sense to compare two sport in term of one being more difficult than the other. Not all things need to be ordered as A < B.
Oh its all good. I was never a big sc1 fan myself. We just all have to realize that SC2 pros come from alot of backgrounds, and while some of them may not have been a bonjwa or won a golden mouse in SC1, they may have equally been famous in other regards. If my memory serves very few people have won as much money as Grubby has, or has had as much success internationally (this includes all sc1 bonjwas, they were isolated, while Grubby was 'worldwide'). With that said, this can only help Feast understand the finer workings of being a progamer, and being affiliated with Grubby itself will just boost your own popularity. Helps 'get his feet wet' so to speak
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
And why do you think that because they win Special Olympics, they are not as good as the person who win normal Olympics? Don't you think that if they had the same condition and stuff like normal people, they were gonna be great too? Or the person who win normal Olympic, if they had handicaps, would they still be great?
The point is, human always reach their best with the tools that they have available. Just because you're good at sword, that doesn't mean you can win against other best spear fighters, or bow fighters once you switch. Just because no one can beat you in barehand combat, doesn't mean no one can beat you in a sword match, cane match,.v.v.v. Switching from BW to SC2 is like switching from medieval to katana, most of the transition is pretty easy, although there're bumps here and there. But switching from BW to WC3 and vice versa, is like switching from using sword and spear/bow, they are just so different in a lot of way, more than just micro and macro. Sometimes the only thing matters is their own discipline. - Build orders and timing attacks are not relevant in WC3 (some of the popular timing attacks you can usually see are 2nd hero getting level 3, or scroll of healing timing attack, but it also depends greatly how you got harassed and how you are positioned, there's no stim timing attack, no weapon +1 attack (kind of)) - You get punished for having good economy (no upkeep, low upkeep, high upkeep), you have to choose to get bigger army or better economy, since your money is not only being invested in army, but in hero items too. - You don't scout to read build order and tech tree, you scout to read troop movement, hero level and items. You can always tp back when your base is being attacked, but if you get ambushed or creepjacked while your heroes are on low health without town portal scroll, you're pretty much screwed. - Sure, you can see no difference in micro between WC3 and BW players, some BW players even have better micro. Hell, even in WC3, you can't really see the difference in micro between some of top players. But the difference between WC3 micro and SC micro is, SC micro happens in a flash while WC3 micro is all about consistency. An engagement in WC3 may last for 3,4 minutes, and the longer it gets the more exhausted it is to micro. That is why players like Moon is praised to have such good micro because even if he has a bad engagement, after 5 minutes he suddenly wins the battle. The micro is more in depth too. They have to literally turn off autocasting spell to maximize the potential. You don't need your sorceress to autocast slow spell to priests because well, they will spend all the time in battle to heal stuff anyway, they're not gonna run anywhere, or your talon to autocast -5armor spells on units that you don't focus fire. Because the battle lasts very long, it's all about how you conserve your units' mana to do stuffs.
The point is, arguing about SC and WC3 is silly, why don't we just enjoy the games as a whole? I used to play and follow WC3 and I enjoyed it, now I'm enjoying SC2, that's all that matters.
Again about Grubby and Feast, Grubby clearly doesn't mean he's gonna coach Feast. How do you say this, Grubby is not trying to teach Feast how to get stronger, but to show Feast the way of life, like how to deal with everything, teams, sponsors, organization, travels, the mentality. Calling it mentoring is kind of weird, I guess it's like Grubby will act like a big brother to give advice and everything to Feast.
I thumbs up this post many times over.
Calling out BW vs. WC3 and how things are comparable is asinine. Hell, even calling BW better than WC3 is bullshit. These are games people, and if people think one is harder than the other, they're sorely underestimating the complexity of the other.
And to put it frankly, Grubby dominated. And dominated, and then dominated some more in his field of gaming. He wasn't dethroned by some upstart BW pro. Squeegy suggests some sort of intellectual snobbery by the BW pros thinking, "Hey, WC3 is easy, but BW is the true test of skill, so lets not do the prudent thing and switch making tons of money". Bullshit. BW and WC3 are vastly different, and even if BW pros had switched, there is no guarantee they would have done well. Just because someone is a brilliant Neurosurgeon, it doesn't mean that he'd make a good internal medicine doctor. Neurosurgery is one of the most difficult, but if he were to "downgrade" as you lot derisively imply in regards to WC3, he might be terrible with diagnosis.
Grubby took on the strongest competition, and stayed at the top for a long career, and deserves recognition for that. Hell, even SC2 is considered easier than BW. I see that oGsFin and golden mouse winner July, etc., are doing well in it. No? It's actually a B-teamer in BW in MMA dominating? And Drg? And the rest?
I'm more just incensed about the special olympics comparison. I don't see Phelps beating that armless swimmer from China or wherever in the Olympics should Phelps lose the use of his arms. Vastly different, and honestly, ludicrous and vile argument.
And I'd like to reiterate to DeMu and Grubby should they read this, you're both my two favorite players so I am not against any of you, just really annoyed with this WC3 slamming (despite me having only ever played it once as opposed to BW)
Games tend to be only as hard as the competition allows. And that is of course the point I have to repeat to people like you over and over again. Special Olympics are not comparable to Olympics because the competition isn't as fierce. Getting to study Law at Harvard is harder than getting to study a vocation in a random vocational school because the competition is more fierce. Succeeding in BW is harder than succeeding in WC3 because the competition is more fierce. When it comes to the question which game is harder to be good at, I will vote BW anyday over WC3. But I don't really care to argue about that.
He took on the strongest competition in WC3 and was very succesful. I recognise that and think what he did was of course great. But it's just not that impressive to me when I know the scene wasn't on par with BW. The fact that people seem to make it as big a thing as, say, July's Golden Mouse seems disrespectful to July. To further illustrate my point, yet again via exaggeration (which I repeat is intentional), consider Federer and Grubby. Let us assume for the sake of the argument that they both were the best in their games. I think I am right in saying that most people would find it absurd if you talked of them as equals. Both were the best in their own scenes but as the scenes are not equal, neither are their achievements. That is not to say that Grubby was not great and that his achievements are not worthy of praise. The part about ForGG and July compared to MMA and DRG, well, you can go to the Elephant thread if you wish to discuss that. That point has been explained numerous times already.
I'll explain again. It is the competition in Olympic swimming that is more fierce than competition in Special Olympic swimming. I guarantee you Phelps, given that he had no arms, would do better in Special Olympics than the armless swimmer, given that he had arms, would do in Olympics. Perhaps instead of thinking whether an argument is vile or not you should think about their validity.
@squeegy, i understand you very good, but this isnt good. Nadal and Federer are one of the kings of tennis, Phelps is one of the king of swimmer, klitschko is one of the king of box, karabatic is one of the king of handball (player), Bolt in 100m run, the one is the best in y, the in other in x, ...etc.
If you say, football is more difficult than handball or tennis or basketball. Than by your logic, Messi deserve more recognition than Dwane Wade or LeBron James?! This should be not fair/correct! Even in other way. The same amount is the right way.
Compare with 2 very different sports IS always bad like wc3 und sc1. wc3 is a micro-centered, sc1 a macro-centered game.
It gets rather tricky when we get to sports that are global and highly popular. But to an extent, yes, the point stands.
I am the greatest player of Squeegy (it's a sport I just made up). I have played it with my friends and always won. I deserve the same amount of respect as Messi. Does that sound right?
Comparisions can be made even when the games are very different. It just gets harder the larger the scenes are. That is why it is probably impossible to say anything about Messi in comparison to LeBron James. Luckily for us WC3 and BW are rather similar, so the comparison isn't that hard to make. The differences between the games are probably something like between amateur and professional boxing. Or perhaps boxing and kickboxing.
I don't think Messi deserve more respect that anybody else in general. He deserve more respect with regards to his discipline (soccer), but not with regard to something else. Like if he would come and talk to me about physics, I wouldn't have any respect for him.
So yeah, Grubby has some things to say when talking about WC3, Messi about soccer and you about Squeegy. Unfortunately, nobody is playing Squeegy so your skills won't be very useful.
I don't really know how you set up the scale for comparing one sport to another. Is it based on number of players, money, prize pool, number of professional, total time played, something else ?
I don't really think it makes much sense to compare two sport in term of one being more difficult than the other. Not all things need to be ordered as A < B.
Do you think I was talking about physics or baking here? What about sports in general? We can even narrow it down more. But Imagine this: someone hosts a sport ceremony where all the greatest sports people are invited to but only I and Messi arrive. So the hosts decide to focus all their attention to us, including splitting the million dollar prize. Do you think, I, as the representative of Squeegy deserve it as much as Messi, as the representative of football? How do you think the majority would react? I dare say they would not agree with the decision.
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
And why do you think that because they win Special Olympics, they are not as good as the person who win normal Olympics? Don't you think that if they had the same condition and stuff like normal people, they were gonna be great too? Or the person who win normal Olympic, if they had handicaps, would they still be great?
The point is, human always reach their best with the tools that they have available. Just because you're good at sword, that doesn't mean you can win against other best spear fighters, or bow fighters once you switch. Just because no one can beat you in barehand combat, doesn't mean no one can beat you in a sword match, cane match,.v.v.v. Switching from BW to SC2 is like switching from medieval to katana, most of the transition is pretty easy, although there're bumps here and there. But switching from BW to WC3 and vice versa, is like switching from using sword and spear/bow, they are just so different in a lot of way, more than just micro and macro. Sometimes the only thing matters is their own discipline. - Build orders and timing attacks are not relevant in WC3 (some of the popular timing attacks you can usually see are 2nd hero getting level 3, or scroll of healing timing attack, but it also depends greatly how you got harassed and how you are positioned, there's no stim timing attack, no weapon +1 attack (kind of)) - You get punished for having good economy (no upkeep, low upkeep, high upkeep), you have to choose to get bigger army or better economy, since your money is not only being invested in army, but in hero items too. - You don't scout to read build order and tech tree, you scout to read troop movement, hero level and items. You can always tp back when your base is being attacked, but if you get ambushed or creepjacked while your heroes are on low health without town portal scroll, you're pretty much screwed. - Sure, you can see no difference in micro between WC3 and BW players, some BW players even have better micro. Hell, even in WC3, you can't really see the difference in micro between some of top players. But the difference between WC3 micro and SC micro is, SC micro happens in a flash while WC3 micro is all about consistency. An engagement in WC3 may last for 3,4 minutes, and the longer it gets the more exhausted it is to micro. That is why players like Moon is praised to have such good micro because even if he has a bad engagement, after 5 minutes he suddenly wins the battle. The micro is more in depth too. They have to literally turn off autocasting spell to maximize the potential. You don't need your sorceress to autocast slow spell to priests because well, they will spend all the time in battle to heal stuff anyway, they're not gonna run anywhere, or your talon to autocast -5armor spells on units that you don't focus fire. Because the battle lasts very long, it's all about how you conserve your units' mana to do stuffs.
The point is, arguing about SC and WC3 is silly, why don't we just enjoy the games as a whole? I used to play and follow WC3 and I enjoyed it, now I'm enjoying SC2, that's all that matters.
Again about Grubby and Feast, Grubby clearly doesn't mean he's gonna coach Feast. How do you say this, Grubby is not trying to teach Feast how to get stronger, but to show Feast the way of life, like how to deal with everything, teams, sponsors, organization, travels, the mentality. Calling it mentoring is kind of weird, I guess it's like Grubby will act like a big brother to give advice and everything to Feast.
I thumbs up this post many times over.
Calling out BW vs. WC3 and how things are comparable is asinine. Hell, even calling BW better than WC3 is bullshit. These are games people, and if people think one is harder than the other, they're sorely underestimating the complexity of the other.
And to put it frankly, Grubby dominated. And dominated, and then dominated some more in his field of gaming. He wasn't dethroned by some upstart BW pro. Squeegy suggests some sort of intellectual snobbery by the BW pros thinking, "Hey, WC3 is easy, but BW is the true test of skill, so lets not do the prudent thing and switch making tons of money". Bullshit. BW and WC3 are vastly different, and even if BW pros had switched, there is no guarantee they would have done well. Just because someone is a brilliant Neurosurgeon, it doesn't mean that he'd make a good internal medicine doctor. Neurosurgery is one of the most difficult, but if he were to "downgrade" as you lot derisively imply in regards to WC3, he might be terrible with diagnosis.
Grubby took on the strongest competition, and stayed at the top for a long career, and deserves recognition for that. Hell, even SC2 is considered easier than BW. I see that oGsFin and golden mouse winner July, etc., are doing well in it. No? It's actually a B-teamer in BW in MMA dominating? And Drg? And the rest?
I'm more just incensed about the special olympics comparison. I don't see Phelps beating that armless swimmer from China or wherever in the Olympics should Phelps lose the use of his arms. Vastly different, and honestly, ludicrous and vile argument.
And I'd like to reiterate to DeMu and Grubby should they read this, you're both my two favorite players so I am not against any of you, just really annoyed with this WC3 slamming (despite me having only ever played it once as opposed to BW)
Games tend to be only as hard as the competition allows. And that is of course the point I have to repeat to people like you over and over again. Special Olympics are not comparable to Olympics because the competition isn't as fierce. Getting to study Law at Harvard is harder than getting to study a vocation in a random vocational school because the competition is more fierce. Succeeding in BW is harder than succeeding in WC3 because the competition is more fierce. When it comes to the question which game is harder to be good at, I will vote BW anyday over WC3. But I don't really care to argue about that.
He took on the strongest competition in WC3 and was very succesful. I recognise that and think what he did was of course great. But it's just not that impressive to me when I know the scene wasn't on par with BW. The fact that people seem to make it as big a thing as, say, July's Golden Mouse seems disrespectful to July. To further illustrate my point, yet again via exaggeration (which I repeat is intentional), consider Federer and Grubby. Let us assume for the sake of the argument that they both were the best in their games. I think I am right in saying that most people would find it absurd if you talked of them as equals. Both were the best in their own scenes but as the scenes are not equal, neither are their achievements. That is not to say that Grubby was not great and that his achievements are not worthy of praise. The part about ForGG and July compared to MMA and DRG, well, you can go to the Elephant thread if you wish to discuss that. That point has been explained numerous times already.
I'll explain again. It is the competition in Olympic swimming that is more fierce than competition in Special Olympic swimming. I guarantee you Phelps, given that he had no arms, would do better in Special Olympics than the armless swimmer, given that he had arms, would do in Olympics. Perhaps instead of thinking whether an argument is vile or not you should think about their validity.
@squeegy, i understand you very good, but this isnt good. Nadal and Federer are one of the kings of tennis, Phelps is one of the king of swimmer, klitschko is one of the king of box, karabatic is one of the king of handball (player), Bolt in 100m run, the one is the best in y, the in other in x, ...etc.
If you say, football is more difficult than handball or tennis or basketball. Than by your logic, Messi deserve more recognition than Dwane Wade or LeBron James?! This should be not fair/correct! Even in other way. The same amount is the right way.
Compare with 2 very different sports IS always bad like wc3 und sc1. wc3 is a micro-centered, sc1 a macro-centered game.
It gets rather tricky when we get to sports that are global and highly popular. But to an extent, yes, the point stands.
I am the greatest player of Squeegy (it's a sport I just made up). I have played it with my friends and always won. I deserve the same amount of respect as Messi. Does that sound right?
Comparisions can be made even when the games are very different. It just gets harder the larger the scenes are. That is why it is probably impossible to say anything about Messi in comparison to LeBron James. Luckily for us WC3 and BW are rather similar, so the comparison isn't that hard to make. The differences between the games are probably something like between amateur and professional boxing. Or perhaps boxing and kickboxing.
I don't think Messi deserve more respect that anybody else in general. He deserve more respect with regards to his discipline (soccer), but not with regard to something else. Like if he would come and talk to me about physics, I wouldn't have any respect for him.
So yeah, Grubby has some things to say when talking about WC3, Messi about soccer and you about Squeegy. Unfortunately, nobody is playing Squeegy so your skills won't be very useful.
I don't really know how you set up the scale for comparing one sport to another. Is it based on number of players, money, prize pool, number of professional, total time played, something else ?
I don't really think it makes much sense to compare two sport in term of one being more difficult than the other. Not all things need to be ordered as A < B.
Do you think I was talking about physics or baking here? What about sports in general? We can even narrow it down more. But Imagine this: someone hosts a sport ceremony where all the greatest sports people are invited to but only I and Messi arrive. So the hosts decide to focus all their attention to us, including splitting the million dollar prize. Do you think, I, as the representative of Squeegy deserve it as much as Messi, as the representative of football? How do you think the majority would react? I dare say they would not agree with the decision.
You can't really determine which sport/game is more competitive by the amount of people watching or playing. Especially since the amount of people playing and watching the two games was probably pretty similar. And if that were the case then LoL would be more competitive than both games and I wouldn't dare make that statement on these forums.
On February 19 2012 04:34 Falconblade wrote: [quote]
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
And why do you think that because they win Special Olympics, they are not as good as the person who win normal Olympics? Don't you think that if they had the same condition and stuff like normal people, they were gonna be great too? Or the person who win normal Olympic, if they had handicaps, would they still be great?
The point is, human always reach their best with the tools that they have available. Just because you're good at sword, that doesn't mean you can win against other best spear fighters, or bow fighters once you switch. Just because no one can beat you in barehand combat, doesn't mean no one can beat you in a sword match, cane match,.v.v.v. Switching from BW to SC2 is like switching from medieval to katana, most of the transition is pretty easy, although there're bumps here and there. But switching from BW to WC3 and vice versa, is like switching from using sword and spear/bow, they are just so different in a lot of way, more than just micro and macro. Sometimes the only thing matters is their own discipline. - Build orders and timing attacks are not relevant in WC3 (some of the popular timing attacks you can usually see are 2nd hero getting level 3, or scroll of healing timing attack, but it also depends greatly how you got harassed and how you are positioned, there's no stim timing attack, no weapon +1 attack (kind of)) - You get punished for having good economy (no upkeep, low upkeep, high upkeep), you have to choose to get bigger army or better economy, since your money is not only being invested in army, but in hero items too. - You don't scout to read build order and tech tree, you scout to read troop movement, hero level and items. You can always tp back when your base is being attacked, but if you get ambushed or creepjacked while your heroes are on low health without town portal scroll, you're pretty much screwed. - Sure, you can see no difference in micro between WC3 and BW players, some BW players even have better micro. Hell, even in WC3, you can't really see the difference in micro between some of top players. But the difference between WC3 micro and SC micro is, SC micro happens in a flash while WC3 micro is all about consistency. An engagement in WC3 may last for 3,4 minutes, and the longer it gets the more exhausted it is to micro. That is why players like Moon is praised to have such good micro because even if he has a bad engagement, after 5 minutes he suddenly wins the battle. The micro is more in depth too. They have to literally turn off autocasting spell to maximize the potential. You don't need your sorceress to autocast slow spell to priests because well, they will spend all the time in battle to heal stuff anyway, they're not gonna run anywhere, or your talon to autocast -5armor spells on units that you don't focus fire. Because the battle lasts very long, it's all about how you conserve your units' mana to do stuffs.
The point is, arguing about SC and WC3 is silly, why don't we just enjoy the games as a whole? I used to play and follow WC3 and I enjoyed it, now I'm enjoying SC2, that's all that matters.
Again about Grubby and Feast, Grubby clearly doesn't mean he's gonna coach Feast. How do you say this, Grubby is not trying to teach Feast how to get stronger, but to show Feast the way of life, like how to deal with everything, teams, sponsors, organization, travels, the mentality. Calling it mentoring is kind of weird, I guess it's like Grubby will act like a big brother to give advice and everything to Feast.
I thumbs up this post many times over.
Calling out BW vs. WC3 and how things are comparable is asinine. Hell, even calling BW better than WC3 is bullshit. These are games people, and if people think one is harder than the other, they're sorely underestimating the complexity of the other.
And to put it frankly, Grubby dominated. And dominated, and then dominated some more in his field of gaming. He wasn't dethroned by some upstart BW pro. Squeegy suggests some sort of intellectual snobbery by the BW pros thinking, "Hey, WC3 is easy, but BW is the true test of skill, so lets not do the prudent thing and switch making tons of money". Bullshit. BW and WC3 are vastly different, and even if BW pros had switched, there is no guarantee they would have done well. Just because someone is a brilliant Neurosurgeon, it doesn't mean that he'd make a good internal medicine doctor. Neurosurgery is one of the most difficult, but if he were to "downgrade" as you lot derisively imply in regards to WC3, he might be terrible with diagnosis.
Grubby took on the strongest competition, and stayed at the top for a long career, and deserves recognition for that. Hell, even SC2 is considered easier than BW. I see that oGsFin and golden mouse winner July, etc., are doing well in it. No? It's actually a B-teamer in BW in MMA dominating? And Drg? And the rest?
I'm more just incensed about the special olympics comparison. I don't see Phelps beating that armless swimmer from China or wherever in the Olympics should Phelps lose the use of his arms. Vastly different, and honestly, ludicrous and vile argument.
And I'd like to reiterate to DeMu and Grubby should they read this, you're both my two favorite players so I am not against any of you, just really annoyed with this WC3 slamming (despite me having only ever played it once as opposed to BW)
Games tend to be only as hard as the competition allows. And that is of course the point I have to repeat to people like you over and over again. Special Olympics are not comparable to Olympics because the competition isn't as fierce. Getting to study Law at Harvard is harder than getting to study a vocation in a random vocational school because the competition is more fierce. Succeeding in BW is harder than succeeding in WC3 because the competition is more fierce. When it comes to the question which game is harder to be good at, I will vote BW anyday over WC3. But I don't really care to argue about that.
He took on the strongest competition in WC3 and was very succesful. I recognise that and think what he did was of course great. But it's just not that impressive to me when I know the scene wasn't on par with BW. The fact that people seem to make it as big a thing as, say, July's Golden Mouse seems disrespectful to July. To further illustrate my point, yet again via exaggeration (which I repeat is intentional), consider Federer and Grubby. Let us assume for the sake of the argument that they both were the best in their games. I think I am right in saying that most people would find it absurd if you talked of them as equals. Both were the best in their own scenes but as the scenes are not equal, neither are their achievements. That is not to say that Grubby was not great and that his achievements are not worthy of praise. The part about ForGG and July compared to MMA and DRG, well, you can go to the Elephant thread if you wish to discuss that. That point has been explained numerous times already.
I'll explain again. It is the competition in Olympic swimming that is more fierce than competition in Special Olympic swimming. I guarantee you Phelps, given that he had no arms, would do better in Special Olympics than the armless swimmer, given that he had arms, would do in Olympics. Perhaps instead of thinking whether an argument is vile or not you should think about their validity.
@squeegy, i understand you very good, but this isnt good. Nadal and Federer are one of the kings of tennis, Phelps is one of the king of swimmer, klitschko is one of the king of box, karabatic is one of the king of handball (player), Bolt in 100m run, the one is the best in y, the in other in x, ...etc.
If you say, football is more difficult than handball or tennis or basketball. Than by your logic, Messi deserve more recognition than Dwane Wade or LeBron James?! This should be not fair/correct! Even in other way. The same amount is the right way.
Compare with 2 very different sports IS always bad like wc3 und sc1. wc3 is a micro-centered, sc1 a macro-centered game.
It gets rather tricky when we get to sports that are global and highly popular. But to an extent, yes, the point stands.
I am the greatest player of Squeegy (it's a sport I just made up). I have played it with my friends and always won. I deserve the same amount of respect as Messi. Does that sound right?
Comparisions can be made even when the games are very different. It just gets harder the larger the scenes are. That is why it is probably impossible to say anything about Messi in comparison to LeBron James. Luckily for us WC3 and BW are rather similar, so the comparison isn't that hard to make. The differences between the games are probably something like between amateur and professional boxing. Or perhaps boxing and kickboxing.
I don't think Messi deserve more respect that anybody else in general. He deserve more respect with regards to his discipline (soccer), but not with regard to something else. Like if he would come and talk to me about physics, I wouldn't have any respect for him.
So yeah, Grubby has some things to say when talking about WC3, Messi about soccer and you about Squeegy. Unfortunately, nobody is playing Squeegy so your skills won't be very useful.
I don't really know how you set up the scale for comparing one sport to another. Is it based on number of players, money, prize pool, number of professional, total time played, something else ?
I don't really think it makes much sense to compare two sport in term of one being more difficult than the other. Not all things need to be ordered as A < B.
Do you think I was talking about physics or baking here? What about sports in general? We can even narrow it down more. But Imagine this: someone hosts a sport ceremony where all the greatest sports people are invited to but only I and Messi arrive. So the hosts decide to focus all their attention to us, including splitting the million dollar prize. Do you think, I, as the representative of Squeegy deserve it as much as Messi, as the representative of football? How do you think the majority would react? I dare say they would not agree with the decision.
You can't really determine which sport/game is more competitive by the amount of people watching or playing. Especially since the amount of people playing and watching the two games was probably pretty similar. And if that were the case then LoL would be more competitive than both games and I wouldn't dare make that statement on these forums.
That is a nice assertion. But what about the questions I asked. Do you have an answer to them?
Things like this are why i love Grubby. He's such a great spokesperson for eSports and he could write a how-to on how to conduct yourself in a professional manner. Keep up the good work, I'll be rooting for you!
Winning Special Olympics is not as prestigious as winning Olympics. Winning many titles out of many is not more prestigious than winning few titles out of few. Nor is winning internationally more prestigious if the level of competition isn't high.
And because BW was so wondrous and obviously > WC3 it relegates WC3 to Special Olympics?
That's utter bullcrap. I played BW a bit as a kid, and WC3 a grand total of once. Either way, they're different games and doesn't make WC3 easier. Being an average player in BW doesn't mean you'd make a good WC3 player. Imagine Idra or Ret in WC3 with their macro heavy style and far less micro and how they'd do in WC3? Stephano was mediocre in WC3 and one of the better SC2 foreigners. Skill in one does not equate to skill in the other. Aptitude perhaps, but not actual skill.
That's downright disrespectful, to compare something to the Special Olympics. And some of those people are damn amazing, and deserve a bit of respect. Prestige or not, it takes skill to be at the top of a game. Dominating the scene, despite having more games, means more than middling it in a different scene.
I love Demu, Ret and Grubby all, but that logic is downright vile.
My example of special olympics is only to show that winning X does not equal to winning Y. Middling it in professional football is better than winning it in mobile phone tossing. People seem to have this erroneous idea that all scenes are equal and it is simply not true. My opinion of Idra and Ret in WC3 is that they would have done really well. As has been seen in SC2, the micro of WC3 players has not been better than BW players. In fact, I would go as far as to say the best microers in SC2 seem to have come from BW. When it comes to people like Stephano, they seem to be peaking now instead of then. Although I do agree that sometimes the skills dont translate that well.
And why do you think that because they win Special Olympics, they are not as good as the person who win normal Olympics? Don't you think that if they had the same condition and stuff like normal people, they were gonna be great too? Or the person who win normal Olympic, if they had handicaps, would they still be great?
The point is, human always reach their best with the tools that they have available. Just because you're good at sword, that doesn't mean you can win against other best spear fighters, or bow fighters once you switch. Just because no one can beat you in barehand combat, doesn't mean no one can beat you in a sword match, cane match,.v.v.v. Switching from BW to SC2 is like switching from medieval to katana, most of the transition is pretty easy, although there're bumps here and there. But switching from BW to WC3 and vice versa, is like switching from using sword and spear/bow, they are just so different in a lot of way, more than just micro and macro. Sometimes the only thing matters is their own discipline. - Build orders and timing attacks are not relevant in WC3 (some of the popular timing attacks you can usually see are 2nd hero getting level 3, or scroll of healing timing attack, but it also depends greatly how you got harassed and how you are positioned, there's no stim timing attack, no weapon +1 attack (kind of)) - You get punished for having good economy (no upkeep, low upkeep, high upkeep), you have to choose to get bigger army or better economy, since your money is not only being invested in army, but in hero items too. - You don't scout to read build order and tech tree, you scout to read troop movement, hero level and items. You can always tp back when your base is being attacked, but if you get ambushed or creepjacked while your heroes are on low health without town portal scroll, you're pretty much screwed. - Sure, you can see no difference in micro between WC3 and BW players, some BW players even have better micro. Hell, even in WC3, you can't really see the difference in micro between some of top players. But the difference between WC3 micro and SC micro is, SC micro happens in a flash while WC3 micro is all about consistency. An engagement in WC3 may last for 3,4 minutes, and the longer it gets the more exhausted it is to micro. That is why players like Moon is praised to have such good micro because even if he has a bad engagement, after 5 minutes he suddenly wins the battle. The micro is more in depth too. They have to literally turn off autocasting spell to maximize the potential. You don't need your sorceress to autocast slow spell to priests because well, they will spend all the time in battle to heal stuff anyway, they're not gonna run anywhere, or your talon to autocast -5armor spells on units that you don't focus fire. Because the battle lasts very long, it's all about how you conserve your units' mana to do stuffs.
The point is, arguing about SC and WC3 is silly, why don't we just enjoy the games as a whole? I used to play and follow WC3 and I enjoyed it, now I'm enjoying SC2, that's all that matters.
Again about Grubby and Feast, Grubby clearly doesn't mean he's gonna coach Feast. How do you say this, Grubby is not trying to teach Feast how to get stronger, but to show Feast the way of life, like how to deal with everything, teams, sponsors, organization, travels, the mentality. Calling it mentoring is kind of weird, I guess it's like Grubby will act like a big brother to give advice and everything to Feast.
I thumbs up this post many times over.
Calling out BW vs. WC3 and how things are comparable is asinine. Hell, even calling BW better than WC3 is bullshit. These are games people, and if people think one is harder than the other, they're sorely underestimating the complexity of the other.
And to put it frankly, Grubby dominated. And dominated, and then dominated some more in his field of gaming. He wasn't dethroned by some upstart BW pro. Squeegy suggests some sort of intellectual snobbery by the BW pros thinking, "Hey, WC3 is easy, but BW is the true test of skill, so lets not do the prudent thing and switch making tons of money". Bullshit. BW and WC3 are vastly different, and even if BW pros had switched, there is no guarantee they would have done well. Just because someone is a brilliant Neurosurgeon, it doesn't mean that he'd make a good internal medicine doctor. Neurosurgery is one of the most difficult, but if he were to "downgrade" as you lot derisively imply in regards to WC3, he might be terrible with diagnosis.
Grubby took on the strongest competition, and stayed at the top for a long career, and deserves recognition for that. Hell, even SC2 is considered easier than BW. I see that oGsFin and golden mouse winner July, etc., are doing well in it. No? It's actually a B-teamer in BW in MMA dominating? And Drg? And the rest?
I'm more just incensed about the special olympics comparison. I don't see Phelps beating that armless swimmer from China or wherever in the Olympics should Phelps lose the use of his arms. Vastly different, and honestly, ludicrous and vile argument.
And I'd like to reiterate to DeMu and Grubby should they read this, you're both my two favorite players so I am not against any of you, just really annoyed with this WC3 slamming (despite me having only ever played it once as opposed to BW)
Games tend to be only as hard as the competition allows. And that is of course the point I have to repeat to people like you over and over again. Special Olympics are not comparable to Olympics because the competition isn't as fierce. Getting to study Law at Harvard is harder than getting to study a vocation in a random vocational school because the competition is more fierce. Succeeding in BW is harder than succeeding in WC3 because the competition is more fierce. When it comes to the question which game is harder to be good at, I will vote BW anyday over WC3. But I don't really care to argue about that.
He took on the strongest competition in WC3 and was very succesful. I recognise that and think what he did was of course great. But it's just not that impressive to me when I know the scene wasn't on par with BW. The fact that people seem to make it as big a thing as, say, July's Golden Mouse seems disrespectful to July. To further illustrate my point, yet again via exaggeration (which I repeat is intentional), consider Federer and Grubby. Let us assume for the sake of the argument that they both were the best in their games. I think I am right in saying that most people would find it absurd if you talked of them as equals. Both were the best in their own scenes but as the scenes are not equal, neither are their achievements. That is not to say that Grubby was not great and that his achievements are not worthy of praise. The part about ForGG and July compared to MMA and DRG, well, you can go to the Elephant thread if you wish to discuss that. That point has been explained numerous times already.
I'll explain again. It is the competition in Olympic swimming that is more fierce than competition in Special Olympic swimming. I guarantee you Phelps, given that he had no arms, would do better in Special Olympics than the armless swimmer, given that he had arms, would do in Olympics. Perhaps instead of thinking whether an argument is vile or not you should think about their validity.
@squeegy, i understand you very good, but this isnt good. Nadal and Federer are one of the kings of tennis, Phelps is one of the king of swimmer, klitschko is one of the king of box, karabatic is one of the king of handball (player), Bolt in 100m run, the one is the best in y, the in other in x, ...etc.
If you say, football is more difficult than handball or tennis or basketball. Than by your logic, Messi deserve more recognition than Dwane Wade or LeBron James?! This should be not fair/correct! Even in other way. The same amount is the right way.
Compare with 2 very different sports IS always bad like wc3 und sc1. wc3 is a micro-centered, sc1 a macro-centered game.
It gets rather tricky when we get to sports that are global and highly popular. But to an extent, yes, the point stands.
I am the greatest player of Squeegy (it's a sport I just made up). I have played it with my friends and always won. I deserve the same amount of respect as Messi. Does that sound right?
Comparisions can be made even when the games are very different. It just gets harder the larger the scenes are. That is why it is probably impossible to say anything about Messi in comparison to LeBron James. Luckily for us WC3 and BW are rather similar, so the comparison isn't that hard to make. The differences between the games are probably something like between amateur and professional boxing. Or perhaps boxing and kickboxing.
I don't think Messi deserve more respect that anybody else in general. He deserve more respect with regards to his discipline (soccer), but not with regard to something else. Like if he would come and talk to me about physics, I wouldn't have any respect for him.
So yeah, Grubby has some things to say when talking about WC3, Messi about soccer and you about Squeegy. Unfortunately, nobody is playing Squeegy so your skills won't be very useful.
I don't really know how you set up the scale for comparing one sport to another. Is it based on number of players, money, prize pool, number of professional, total time played, something else ?
I don't really think it makes much sense to compare two sport in term of one being more difficult than the other. Not all things need to be ordered as A < B.
Do you think I was talking about physics or baking here? What about sports in general? We can even narrow it down more. But Imagine this: someone hosts a sport ceremony where all the greatest sports people are invited to but only I and Messi arrive. So the hosts decide to focus all their attention to us, including splitting the million dollar prize. Do you think, I, as the representative of Squeegy deserve it as much as Messi, as the representative of football? How do you think the majority would react? I dare say they would not agree with the decision.
Well, it's up to the people who give you one million dollar to decide how they want to spend their money. Maybe they can decide to give more to Messi because he's more well-known, but being well-known doesn't mean his sport is better or more competitive than another one.
The thing is, you need to define how you compare two sports competitiveness. Again, is it the prize pool, the amount of viewers, the amount of players, the amount of training or something else ?
On February 22 2012 11:02 Klogbert wrote: Things like this are why i love Grubby. He's such a great spokesperson for eSports and he could write a how-to on how to conduct yourself in a professional manner. Keep up the good work, I'll be rooting for you!
Minus his BM vs Demuslim in MLG Arena.. I expected better from him... Lighten up dude
On February 22 2012 11:02 Klogbert wrote: Things like this are why i love Grubby. He's such a great spokesperson for eSports and he could write a how-to on how to conduct yourself in a professional manner. Keep up the good work, I'll be rooting for you!
Minus his BM vs Demuslim in MLG Arena.. I expected better from him... Lighten up dude
What for a BM? If you're reffering to the last game on TDA: This was not BM but trying to keep the last 1% winpercentage. Otherwise: What did i miss? o0
On February 22 2012 11:02 Klogbert wrote: Things like this are why i love Grubby. He's such a great spokesperson for eSports and he could write a how-to on how to conduct yourself in a professional manner. Keep up the good work, I'll be rooting for you!
Minus his BM vs Demuslim in MLG Arena.. I expected better from him... Lighten up dude
What for a BM? If you're reffering to the last game on TDA: This was not BM but trying to keep the last 1% winpercentage. Otherwise: What did i miss? o0
Could someone shed some light on this? What happened?
On February 22 2012 11:02 Klogbert wrote: Things like this are why i love Grubby. He's such a great spokesperson for eSports and he could write a how-to on how to conduct yourself in a professional manner. Keep up the good work, I'll be rooting for you!
Minus his BM vs Demuslim in MLG Arena.. I expected better from him... Lighten up dude
What for a BM? If you're reffering to the last game on TDA: This was not BM but trying to keep the last 1% winpercentage. Otherwise: What did i miss? o0
Could someone shed some light on this? What happened?
last game grubby was pretty dead with no army and like 70 supply down and hid pylon and assimlators around when it was 3 stalkers and 3 zealots vs like 30 marines 3 tanks and 2 banshees
What Grubby did in that game was BM. In a base race it is one thing to hide assimilators and pylons if you have a standing army that has a chance to defeat his army/buildings (which is questionable given Demusilm was terran and floating). It is also fine if you have enough money to build production facilities or a nexus and you are trying to stay alive that way. However when you have less then 100 minerals, can only build assimilators, all of your structures are dead, and your supply is literally 7 vs 70 it is BM to then proceed to prolong the game for no other reason then your own pride. No one here can say he was playing to win at that point; when he could only build assimilators.
On February 27 2012 00:27 JBrown08 wrote: What Grubby did in that game was BM. In a base race it is one thing to hide assimilators and pylons if you have a standing army that has a chance to defeat his army/buildings (which is questionable given Demusilm was terran and floating). It is also fine if you have enough money to build production facilities or a nexus and you are trying to stay alive that way. However when you have less then 100 minerals, can only build assimilators, all of your structures are dead, and your supply is literally 7 vs 70 it is BM to then proceed to prolong the game for no other reason then your own pride. No one here can say he was playing to win at that point; when he could only build assimilators.
Wow, just wow. Trying your hardest to win and not giving up when things look bad are what make amazing comebacks, and they are not in fact signs of BM.
On February 27 2012 00:27 JBrown08 wrote: What Grubby did in that game was BM. In a base race it is one thing to hide assimilators and pylons if you have a standing army that has a chance to defeat his army/buildings (which is questionable given Demusilm was terran and floating). It is also fine if you have enough money to build production facilities or a nexus and you are trying to stay alive that way. However when you have less then 100 minerals, can only build assimilators, all of your structures are dead, and your supply is literally 7 vs 70 it is BM to then proceed to prolong the game for no other reason then your own pride. No one here can say he was playing to win at that point; when he could only build assimilators.
Wow, just wow. Trying your hardest to win and not giving up when things look bad are what make amazing comebacks, and they are not in fact signs of BM.
Things weren't looking bad, they were over. Would you feel the same if a Terran had lifted all of his buildings floated them to the corners of the map and waited for protoss to tech all the way back up to starport and did not leave until every last building was killed (with no standing army mind you)?
He had no money, his units couldn't win in a straight up fight, and everyone knew it was over. He was not fighting to the last moment, he was dead and prolonging a game in which he could not build a single thing other than an assimilator. Im sorry to tell you this, but when all you can build is an assimilator you have no chance.
It is only at that exact moment that it becomes BM, not before. Not while he was building useful units, not while he had a chance and not when he wasn't revealed. It was when he was revealed, built and assimilator, waited for it to be found, and built another one across map for no reason.
I feel like I am in the Monty Python sketch about the Parrot; Grubby was infact a dead Parrot and you aren't gonna sell me that he was just pining for the fields.
On February 27 2012 01:54 Kleinmuuhg wrote: grubby and demuslim know each other for years, this is no big deal to them whatsoever, so why should it be to you?
It is no big deal to me, and infact I like Grubby. People were asking why it was considered BM and what happened. I was merely explaining why in this case it was BM (even if Grubby was doing it just to screw with Demuslim in a friendly manner). It is the people saying it is Grubby fighting to the last breath that is annoying; that was not what this was.
On February 27 2012 02:47 Jinsho wrote: To some people everything that's not "i luv you <3 <3" is BM. Are you traumatized from your childhood or something?
Yes. Grubby once told me he was going to be my mentor and then proceeded to touch me where I pee from.
Grubby is one of my favorite players simply based on how awesome of a guy he is and how he will continue to be 100% good mannered and funny at the same time! I think him taking feast as his apprentice is something that could improve both of them greatly! Good stuff Grubby!
EPT
I hope such an arrangement works out well!
^^
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DhtYl.gif)
