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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit. Bans will be handed out. Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. | ||
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DR.Ham
Netherlands621 Posts
On February 14 2012 12:54 Jibba wrote: A year or two means absolutely nothing, we've seen this all before. They're not in debt, but they're running a deficit. You keep saying that they are losing money, but where do you get this information? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26044 Posts
On February 14 2012 12:58 feanor1 wrote: You think MLG is honestly turning a profit? They have been burning through venture capital for years. Also the PPV model has been proven to work, see MMA and Boxing. They have limited audiences, so companies need more per person to support the industry, hence the larger fee. Exactly, the niche sports tend to all be on PPV these days, to be honest I'd rather pay for a single event than a big TV subscription when I barely watch TV. I feel the Gold members of MLG should get this event free though, seems a bit off to just alter your pricing like that. I can take arguments that the price is too much or whatever, fair enough! However there are a load of posts from people here against the idea of paying for anything, fucking entitled bastards - See SOPA thread for more of that. Fair enough, but if the bottom falls out of the burgeoning E-sports scene don't come on here crying. | ||
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SupLilSon
Malaysia4123 Posts
On February 14 2012 12:18 wollhandkrabbe wrote: Whats the deal with the referral thingy? Minimizing bad press and a free hypemachine by giving all of the public esports personas the ability to earn some money? Regarding the 20$ worth or not discussion: All the content may be worth 20$. Or it may be not. The thing is I don't want all the content. I want to tune in if I have the time, and I want to see the games. I do not want to listen to media people 'creating storylines' on five channels, citing useless statistics or doing the same boring interview again and again with different players. So I will probably not ever support this kind of business model. I was just about to post a similar comment. Generally I'll have the MLG stream open for near it's entirety but the reality is I am not actively watching the whole time. I'll be playing SC2 or dota and alt tabbing to check on games and match scores. I only watch select games of players I want to see and the final rounds. MLG to me is sort of like the Olympics. You usually have it running on the TV but you only really tune in to the few athletes you root for. Maybe MLG could offer a tier of prices with varying degrees of content? I'd gladly throw 5 dollars to see the semi finals and finals but I know I won't watch enough to warrant 20$. However it is nice that they are offering a free preview, that might sway my mind as well as others. | ||
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nakedsurfer
Canada500 Posts
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feanor1
United States1899 Posts
On February 14 2012 13:01 DR.Ham wrote: You keep saying that they are losing money, but where do you get this information? @MLGSundance I personally (and MLG) have invested more money into the scene than we have earned. By choice. You have a choice as well. Have a good night. Well I believe him. And last year they had tiny prize pools. I don't think MLG was burning a ton of money last year, but they defiantly lost money. | ||
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Charger
United States2405 Posts
On February 14 2012 13:00 ReVox wrote: I don't think it's a charity, I'm saying there wont be an MLG to tune into, and sorry but if you think 20 bucks for the best players from korea/eu/na isnt good enough than you're just being delusional with what a good tournament is and deserves. It's worth it for 2 MONTHS of the very best content and players (the GSL). For a weekend tournament, no I don't think $20 is worth it. We can't really argue this, some will see it as content worth their money, some won't. It's up to the consumer. My point was that just because YOU see it as worth it, a lot of people don't - especially compared to other league's PPV models. | ||
Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On February 14 2012 13:00 ReVox wrote: I don't think this is really fair. We can disagree on the model, but I don't think it's fair to chastise people on how they prefer to spend their money or how they perceive value unless they're being utterly irresponsible. For some people, $20 is an acceptable amount given their own personal budget, and obviously for others it isn't acceptable. If you live in DC, that's like a couple days of transportation. If you live elsewhere, it's eating for a week.I don't think it's a charity, I'm saying there wont be an MLG to tune into, and sorry but if you think 20 bucks for the best players from korea/eu/na isnt good enough than you're just being delusional with what a good tournament is and deserves. | ||
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puzzl
United States263 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26044 Posts
On February 14 2012 13:04 Jibba wrote: I don't think this is really fair. We can disagree on the model, but I don't think it's fair to chastise people on how they prefer to spend their money or how they perceive value. For some people, $20 is an acceptable amount given their own personal budget, and obviously for others it isn't acceptable. Of course, posts like 'oh I want to support the scene but 20 dollars is too much for this event' make perfect sense to me, even though I'll be tuning in. It compares amazingly well to a cinema ticket for example, at least over here. Posts like 'omg how dare they make us pay anything' are ridiculous. | ||
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DirtyCash
Canada189 Posts
I wont be paying for it though. The competition is far inferior to GSL and I couldnt care less about the "show" part. (read : I KEEL ESPORTS) On another note, I find it funny now how community people (LO3, the vVv podcast guy and many others) were mocking the fighting game community when they said they wanted to keep tournaments community-based and didnt believe in "eSports money". Now that its publicly acknowledged that almost nobody makes any money in the scene and big name tourneys are not profitable, why were we laughing again? | ||
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hoby2000
United States918 Posts
The Winter Arena is purely for the players and the hardcore fans that want their favorite players (in my case, the one and only Bruce Leenock) do the best. Those hardcore fans will shell out the money, just like hardcore fans of NHL or NBA shell out as much money as possible to see every game from their favorite players. The best part about all of this is that anyone who isn't a hardcore fan will see the price tag, and will skip over it because all they care about is what the seeds in general will be for the championship. I know at first I was pointing fingers, and telling people to get real, and all this shit, and I was wrong to do that. I think the idea is still good though because people like me who crave to watch their favorite players play in anything will shell out the money. I don't give two shits if Sundance is going to take all of this money, and wipe it with his ass for toilet paper. i mean, I do care, and that's kind of messesd up, but I think he's going to do some good things with the money, but either way... I just want to watch Leenock lay down his iron tentacles, and that's it. Winter Arena PPV can be likened to the sports packages you pay for to watch your favorite sports teams in popular sports - Not every fan is going to buy it, but those who want every detail of how they got there will. Those who are upset by the pricing will not pay for it, and I'm actually completely fine with that. I personally will buy it just so I can watch Leenock play, and have an understanding of where he's at in terms of skill so when Colombus rolls around, I know how much he's improved, or what his previous problems were. Like I said, Winter Arena to me seems to be for the hardcore fans, and if you don't (or can't) spend the money to watch, then that's that. People can't spend money on things they want, but that doesn't mean that you won't be able to watch your favorite players still compete in the championship. I also don't think anymore that if you don't want to pay for Arena, that you're some how less of a fan, because there are a lot of reasons why you can't or won't, whether it's financial or philosphical. | ||
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PhoenixDark
United States286 Posts
If this was how the traditional MLG events were being handled I could see reason for concern/disagreement. But this is basically a weekend event with heavy BarCraft emphasis, with a crap ton of content. I think HOTS will obviously be big, but as the dotas get bigger and SC2 competition gets fiercer, I expect many pro gamers to switch to other games and fans to move to something else. Expect more small scale tournaments, and people complaining about a lack of Koreans ha. Way to go guys | ||
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yoshi245
United States2971 Posts
On February 14 2012 12:58 feanor1 wrote: You think MLG is honestly turning a profit? They have been burning through venture capital for years. Also the PPV model has been proven to work, see MMA and Boxing. They have limited audiences, so companies need more per person to support the industry, hence the larger fee. Limited audiences yes, but still in scale comparison of size to e-sports, Boxing and MMA's audience and fan-bases much much larger. MMA (or UFC) in particular took several years even after the dark ages of the UFC before they really got a working PPV model and turned a profit. If it wasn't the billionaire Zuffa brothers and the rather outspoken Dana White, UFC and MMA in general would be a secondary sideshow of combat sports never to really hit the main stream - though they have one major platform MLG does not: actual TV, they started with TV in SpikeTV, and PPV's, then eventually got on to FOX. The PPV model here for an MLG event at $20 is asking a bit much for most viewers who want to watch, let alone the casuals. The only event I ever coughed up any dough for to watch was HSC3, it was worth it since it was a very unique event (I didn't pay for HSC4, though the free stream was fine). Point is, MLG should have started with a lower number like $5 or 10, it can attract even frugal minded viewers. $20 is too much and is basically a breaking point for many, if anything this will just help Assembly - which obviously is not good for MLG. | ||
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bovineblitz
United States314 Posts
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dsousa
United States1363 Posts
On February 14 2012 12:54 Jibba wrote: A year or two means absolutely nothing, we've seen this all before. They're not in debt, but they're running a deficit. You know this? Shoutcraft has a surplus and no tournament that I know of has published financial data... other than Shoutcraft. Since you know so much, how much of MLG's revenue last year went to SC2 players? Do you know that figure? If they are paying 35%+ of revenue to the players, then I could consider my fee to them a good investment in esports... but by my estimates I would say they are giving under 10% to the players. Which is minscule compared to other competative events, where "pro" players can actually sustain themselves. Why should MLG have a real world successful business, based on the poverty of its "pro" player base? We should reward the players, they are what make SC2 great.... and I'm not convinced MLG is giving the players a fair amount. | ||
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gladsheim
Australia676 Posts
On February 14 2012 13:02 Wombat_NI wrote: Exactly, the niche sports tend to all be on PPV these days, to be honest I'd rather pay for a single event than a big TV subscription when I barely watch TV. I feel the Gold members of MLG should get this event free though, seems a bit off to just alter your pricing like that. I can take arguments that the price is too much or whatever, fair enough! However there are a load of posts from people here against the idea of paying for anything, fucking entitled bastards - See SOPA thread for more of that. Fair enough, but if the bottom falls out of the burgeoning E-sports scene don't come on here crying. Right?, It seems like everyone here thinks they deserve to be able to watch an event like this for free, i can't imagine the costs that MLG has to fork out to make events like this possible, even with sponsors and adds they get no revenue from viewers at all. They also basically doubled the prize money for events this yea. People who are saying "How much of this is going to the gamers???" don't seem to understand that MLG is offering more money now. God MLG has been amazing ever since the introduction of the GSL exchange program / Korean seeds. The things they've done for Starcraft 2... would there even be Barcrafts if it weren't for MLG weekends? | ||
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
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domane
Canada1606 Posts
... if well-received, will allow us to dramatically increase the amount of meaningful live competition we broadcast each season. I personally think that the current frequency of MLG events is just right. Increasing the "amount of meaningful live competition" might actually make them as a whole, less meaningful. | ||
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divito
Canada1213 Posts
On February 14 2012 13:08 gladsheim wrote: seems like everyone here thinks they deserve to be able to watch an event like this for free, i can't imagine the costs that MLG has to fork out to make events like this possible, even with sponsors and adds they get no revenue from viewers at all. Actually, charging for their streams in the past, and having attendees at their events is getting revenue. Plus, this event was closed off to the public, ignoring a source of income through the gate. I don't think many people would accept a larger fee because they chose to ignore potential customers at an event. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26044 Posts
On February 14 2012 13:08 gladsheim wrote: Right?, It seems like everyone here thinks they deserve to be able to watch an event like this for free, i can't imagine the costs that MLG has to fork out to make events like this possible, even with sponsors and adds they get no revenue from viewers at all. They also basically doubled the prize money for events this yea. People who are saying "How much of this is going to the gamers???" don't seem to understand that MLG is offering more money now. God MLG has been amazing ever since the introduction of the GSL exchange program / Korean seeds. The things they've done for Starcraft 2... would there even be Barcrafts if it weren't for MLG weekends? Every player going there is getting their flights paid, including the Koreans. Yeah that won't be an expensive initial outlay, plus general running costs are probably pretty high given the improvements in production we've seen. I think this will be one of the best tournaments yet in SC history, the lineup is stacked and was picked in a meritocratic way, lots of great players going unseen at each other so less silly snipey builds, looking forward to it myself! | ||
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