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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
Bans will be handed out.
Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. |
On February 25 2012 22:25 ntssauce wrote:
Basically MLG wanted money from viewers+from sponsors + save money due to not having a huge arena . It's like hometory cup where they don't have to pay the venue but get all the money )
omg this sums it up so well!
i hope they make even more red numbers with this ppv thing!
without the area the "flair" of the last mlgs is missing........
and how many viewers do they actually get when there are 56k currently on tl linked streams?!
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On February 25 2012 23:09 natebreen wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2012 23:06 mockturtle wrote:On February 25 2012 22:39 zezamer wrote:
I don't understand why would anyone support PPV. MLG has just made mistakes that makes their business bad.
I don't understand why anyone would support an advertising model. The second any major company decides that something about a Starcraft tournament is objectionable to them (a top player who is sponsored by a rival company, a conglomerate feud with Activision, whatever), they have the power to put a stop to it by threatening to stop funding it. "We'll support companies that support esports!" -- excellent. That mouse or motherboard you just bought includes their marketing budget in the overhead, so the cost of a PPV is built into the mouse. If advertisers foot the bill for your starcraft tournaments, then the second SteelSeries or Asus or whatever marketing research suggests that Starcraft fans won't buy enough of their stuff to pay the advertising bills, they'll stop funding it. eSports has risen and fallen for years in the west, and a major factor has been the majority of the money coming from hardware advertisers who are hesitant to promote a two year old game with low system requirements since hardcore players of that game have little need for new graphics cards or CPUs. S. Korea on the other hand is so dense and player participation so high that local adverting is varied, fruitful, and not dependent on short term surges in popularity. EG is sponsored by companies like Intel and SteelSeries. oGs is sponsored by "Mom's Touch" -- a Korean chicken restaurant.] If advertisers foot the bill for tournaments, no one gives a shit about people in countries who won't buy their stuff. If Monster Energy drink doesn't sell in Panama, then viewers from Panama don't matter. If a tournament gets an even distribution of users from all around the world, they need to either develop a way to sell regional advertising all over the world or write off large portions of their users as potential advertising revenue. If you foot the bill, Starcraft is around as long as you are interested in it, to the degree you are interested in it, the way you want to see it. Personally, I would prefer if tournaments maintain some free content -- like Day 1/group stage for free in SD, and save the PPV only for later rounds with a couple price points (a standard and deluxe). But regardless, I'm very glad to see people move past an advertising model because the phrase "ROI" is the nail in the coffin for Starcraft. Well said.
Lol you appear after 10 posts contradicting you.
An advertise system is the one that can grow a large fan base. A PPV can't. It just milks money out of an existing one. Starcraft 2 is not at that critical mass where you can go PPV.
The second any major company decides that something about a Starcraft tournament is objectionable to them (a top player who is sponsored by a rival company, a conglomerate feud with Activision, whatever), they have the power to put a stop to it by threatening to stop funding it.
This sounds like a conspiracy theory.
"We'll support companies that support esports!" -- excellent. That mouse or motherboard you just bought includes their marketing budget in the overhead, so the cost of a PPV is built into the mouse.
Don't mind. It's my option to buy that product, I am not forced to. I will feel better that I supported ESPORTs and I actually get a mouse, even though it's pricey. At least I am the one responsible with where my money goes not an organization that may invest my 20$ badly.
If advertisers foot the bill for tournaments, no one gives a shit about people in countries who won't buy their stuff. If Monster Energy drink doesn't sell in Panama, then viewers from Panama don't matter. If a tournament gets an even distribution of users from all around the world, they need to either develop a way to sell regional advertising all over the world or write off large portions of their users as potential advertising revenue.
Twitch TV already has regional adds. And this is not in general a problem like you make it sound.
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On February 25 2012 23:18 ceaRshaf wrote:
An advertise system is the one that can grow a large fan base. A PPV can't. It just milks money out of an existing one.
Starcraft 2 is not at that critical mass where you can go PPV.
Both systems can grow a fan base. One system tells you how many people are real fans and the other gives you a rough estimate of how many people were bored at work. You see stuff on reddit like "I don't even play Starcraft but I love watching it", but if it's true it is few and far between. Most potential MLG fans are people who own Starcraft who have spent money on the game and have plenty of other free content to woo them further into the pro scene if they are interested. They can also find free VODs. They can goto Barcrafts or be guests at a viewing party (since they're likely pulled into the scene by word of mouth anyway). Lastly, I'd imagine that if PPV becomes popular tournaments will start making something like the early rounds in SD free, while you pay for a premium package and to see the championships.
This sounds like a conspiracy theory.
This happens all the time in advertising. Whether it's moral, ethical, petty, business, whatever. Technology is a small field and it's not at all unlikely that there might be a business conflict involving an advertiser -- the most reasonable one I'd guess is one company who sponsors an entire event getting upset when a player sponsored by their competitor wins. "CocaCola's MLG Anaheim is won by PepsiEG-Grubby". Starbucks might refuse to co-sponsor an event with Monster Energy. Non-business reasons could be involved as well.
Don't mind. It's my option to buy that product, I am not forced to. I will feel better that I supported ESPORTs and I actually get a mouse, even though it's pricey. At least I am the one responsible with where my money goes not an organization that may invest may 20$ badly."
I don't understand how this is preferable to just giving the $20 to MLG directly. SteelSeries may invest your $20 badly. They may pocket it and then cancel a sponsorship with your favorite player the week later. You have a choice whether or not to buy the MLG PPV instead of waiting to watch the free vods, watching ROG, KSL, or dozens of live streams. But you can be sure that while the $20 is probably partially going to buy Sundance ramen or new toilet paper for the MLG office, it's also going directly into the hands of people putting on events.
I do agree that it's in MLG's best interest to
-try and make extra money from people who are true hardcore fans and want to give it (t-shirts, deluxe memberships, etc)
-have a bargain basement standard price (for example id be interested in all the streams, but I never watch starcraft above 480p)
-have stuff for fans who can't or won't pay anything, such as free early rounds or free vods released later
Twitch TV already has regional adds. And this is not in general a problem like you make it sound.
Everything involved in running a small business with a wide, distributed global fan base is a gigantic problem. TwitchTV is a fortunate ally for the esports industry because one company with one pool of staff can serve the industry wide purpose of soliciting advertising across the world. Even then, reading any industry-related posts like TotalBiscuit or FXOBoss gives a grim impression of what the present and future may hold based on Twitch's advertising. On the PPV angle, simply being able to accept money from people all over the world is a giant headache. If you really are from Romania, I'm sure this doesn't surprise you.
edit: I forgot to mention -- I'm not at all defending any other criticisms, like the event costs too much money, they didn't need to spend the money to fly 32 players in, there should be a live audience, whatever. I just eagerly support the rise of a PPV model over an advertising model for premier tournaments. I also don't disagree with anyone who doesn't want to shell out the cash for the tournament because they don't think it's going to be worth it or they think it's too much money (this is partially MLG's fault -- they should have released more free content to demonstrate exactly what it's worth rather than asking people to trust them and fueling the nerd rage). The beauty of PPV is that it moves Starcraft into a sustainable model where we can get an accurate idea of how much money can be spent putting on and paying out events rather than relying on constant surges of income each time a new advertising contract is secured. Pay for what you want. Don't pay if you don't.
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On February 25 2012 20:04 Krymming wrote:
EDIT: I think people are overexaggerating. A cinema ticket goes for like what? 11$? That's 11$ for ~2 hours of entertainment.
If you can afford to go to the cinema like once a month, you could skip it the for the sake of MLG.
This is such a misread from people who think SC2 is the only thing viewers of SC2 are watching. I already pay basically around 60 dollars a month for other PPV events, if that wasn't the case then yeah $20 for a SC2 event would be fine but i watch more then SC2 and im not a die hard SC2 fan so if i can watch for example the NBA All-Star weekend for 7 bucks the choice is not difficult for me to choose what to watch.
And people like me you need to attract to grow esports, die hard fans already watch it and will pay almost anything you ask but it wont helping you to grow the sport. MLG winter arena is great for die hard fans but it has nothing to do with growing esports.
So i will never buy a expensive pass like that but i did watch some matches last night i wanted to see, thanks to bad coding it wasn't hard to trick around their paywall to see it for free and that's the most disappointing thing i maybe have ever seen. Running almost the most expensive PPV pro-sports event ever and then failing so hard in securing the content you sell.....
I talked to people who paid and had mayor issues with the streams (getting bumped/kicked) from streams and had to login and out over and over but my ridiculous easy trick around the paywall without logging in worked better for them. That's just stupid and a pretty big fail. Oh and MLG, throw away that peace of crap player you made. It look nice but it's crap.
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About the "product" its not even working, paying customers are being forced to log in every few seconds while ppl with certain addblocks can watch for free and without being harassed.
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Any idea how many watching the MLG stream? now or average
asking out of curiousity
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On February 26 2012 00:15 Tigerlily wrote:
Any idea how many watching the MLG stream? now or average
asking out of curiousity
I'm not 100% clear on how the Twitch interface works, but it looks like a few thousand?
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On February 26 2012 00:17 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2012 00:15 Tigerlily wrote:
Any idea how many watching the MLG stream? now or average
asking out of curiousity I'm not 100% clear on how the Twitch interface works, but it looks like a few thousand?
They need >8000 to be on green I think.
About the "product" its not even working, paying customers are being forced to log in every few seconds while ppl with certain addblocks can watch for free and without being harassed.
I was on the edge on buying just to see the games (though it's lame to pay the full price for that since it's not live) but after seeing all the complaints from people that already bought the ticket that can't make the VODs work I turned around.
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Just an fyi, I'm unemployed, in a tight spot where I have to move & get a job so I can get any money (don't have an income) but I still were able to spend 20$ for e-sports & also for nick and dan.
Your excuses? I just invalidated them.
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On February 26 2012 00:24 Ashenshugar wrote:
Just an fyi, I'm unemployed, in a tight spot where I have to move & get a job so I can get any money (don't have an income) but I still were able to spend 20$ for e-sports & also for nick and dan.
Your excuses? I just invalidated them.
Wow, you are such a hero. It's about the principle of a high price on a market that doesn't charge that much for anything.
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On February 26 2012 00:24 Ashenshugar wrote:
Just an fyi, I'm unemployed, in a tight spot where I have to move & get a job so I can get any money (don't have an income) but I still were able to spend 20$ for e-sports & also for nick and dan.
Your excuses? I just invalidated them.
you could also say: I'm unemployed and waste my time watching sc2 instead of searching for a job!!!!
I would hate you if you were from germany, cause all the working people pay for people like you that get money from the country.
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is there anything out if they have success with their strategy? How many viewers are on the stream?
Just an fyi, I'm unemployed, in a tight spot where I have to move & get a job so I can get any money (don't have an income) but I still were able to spend 20$ for e-sports & also for nick and dan.
Your excuses? I just invalidated them.
Lets see what you say when you have to pay every weekend for every turnement
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Anyone who have to argue about the principle just doesn't have a job.. if you actually have a job you won't be arguing about 20$ because you throw that away in a heartbeat on more stupid shit than this..
Or maybe you're on of those uptight people who can't enjoy life.. just spend the 20$ if you want the product they're selling - bitching and moaning about it doesn't hurt anyone but you.
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On February 26 2012 00:24 Ashenshugar wrote:
Just an fyi, I'm unemployed, in a tight spot where I have to move & get a job so I can get any money (don't have an income) but I still were able to spend 20$ for e-sports & also for nick and dan.
Your excuses? I just invalidated them.
So youre a poor guy with wrong priorities.
That does not invalidate anything, it just shows that you should think about your life.
May i ask where the 20 bucks came from? Did you beg? Do you get money from your government? Family?
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On February 26 2012 00:24 Ashenshugar wrote:
Just an fyi, I'm unemployed, in a tight spot where I have to move & get a job so I can get any money (don't have an income) but I still were able to spend 20$ for e-sports & also for nick and dan.
Your excuses? I just invalidated them.
That just sounds like a bad life decision more than anything
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On February 26 2012 00:37 Ashenshugar wrote:
Anyone who have to argue about the principle just doesn't have a job.. if you actually have a job you won't be arguing about 20$ because you throw that away in a heartbeat on more stupid shit than this..
Or maybe you're on of those uptight people who can't enjoy life.. just spend the 20$ if you want the product they're selling - bitching and moaning about it doesn't hurt anyone but you.
Actually I have a job and I care of the principle. You don't have a job and payed the 20$. So your argument is reversed.
And if I have principles it must mean I don't enjoy life...uh, what? I think the way you think makes you unemployed.
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For the people that say if we all go ppv, because if we don't want to rely on sponsors, don't forget SC2 is Blizzard's game and whenever they want they can shut it down. No they won't do it but it is Blizzard's game and they could shut down MLG.
Nothing against that they try ppv, but how in the world does this grow e sports?
I thought growing means to make people take notice of it, not hide it behind a money wall?
Good luck with the Winter Arena, but in the end I think MLG is out to make their money and not really to make money to the players/community we cheer at.
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On February 26 2012 00:37 Ashenshugar wrote:
Anyone who have to argue about the principle just doesn't have a job.. if you actually have a job you won't be arguing about 20$ because you throw that away in a heartbeat on more stupid shit than this..
I never ever throw $20 away in a heartbeat on random stuff, and I don't even know anybody who does. Especially not when I can get the thing I'm paying for for free.
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I thought we were over with all the complaining about PPV. It's very simple, if you can afford it than buy, if not that's fine just stop complaining. I personally had an awesome day yesterday, I had no problem whatsoever with the streams. The layout is awesome and I never miss any action, for me at least, it was worth the $20.
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On February 26 2012 00:51 MLQ10 wrote:
I thought we were over with all the complaining about PPV. It's very simple, if you can afford it than buy, if not that's fine just stop complaining. I personally had an awesome day yesterday, I had no problem whatsoever with the streams. The layout is awesome and I never miss any action, for me at least, it was worth the $20.
Never! It is imperative that everyone knows the circumstances surrounding my willingness to pay or not pay $20 to watch Starcraft 2
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EPT
