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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit.
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Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. |
On February 15 2012 06:36 Naughty wrote:
While MLG produces quality games, and has decent casting, There product is not worth the $20s unless production and downtime is reduced greatly. Im paying $20 to watch hot pocket ad's and a crowed of people sitting in chairs.
To be fair, in the second half of 2011 MLG did address the downtime issue very effectively. Scheduling of the matches was improved drastically, and they at least got rid of that Bing commercial...
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To me 20$ also ca. 15€ are far to much.
I like to support eSport because its fun to watch evenso i don't really play any more. Thats why i bought MLG silver ticket for 2 month to watch 3 MLG's, I bought the last two HSC tickets and I bought something for the ESL. But every time the price for the ticket was between 4 and 7€ for a 3-4 day's event, while only MLG silver membership costed a little bit more.
But now with 15€ for 20 hours (thats 0,75€ for a hour SC2) i think the ratio is not really customer friendly.
For example here in germany I can borrow a DvD for 1€ if i return it the same day. Thats 1€ for 1,5 hours of entertainment. If I would watch the MLG I would pay 1,125€ for 1,5 hours.
As you see I would pay just the same for a movie and SC2. Which is insane if u ask me...
TL;DR I would pay 4-7€ for a 3-4 day event, just like I pay for every other event. MLG isn't that special that I would pay that much. Because as I remember MLG often had long breaks, a bad schedule for europeans and many delays.
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On February 15 2012 06:36 Naughty wrote:
While MLG produces quality games, and has decent casting, There product is not worth the $20s unless production and downtime is reduced greatly. Im paying $20 to watch hot pocket ad's and a crowed of people sitting in chairs.
Hey, at least they have chairs.
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On February 15 2012 06:27 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 06:22 iky43210 wrote:On February 15 2012 06:13 wklbishop wrote:On February 15 2012 05:51 legaton wrote:
So, i checked all the SEC fillings and this is the money invested in MLG
2011-11-23 - debt + option -2 500 000 dollars
2011-08-12 - debt + option - 3 083 328
2010-12-30 - equity - 3 333 353 dollars
2009-08-31 - equity - 3 499 995 dollars
2008-12-31 - equity + option - 7 500 000 dollars
2007-06-18 - equity - 1 400 000 dollars
2006-11-20 - equity - 25 000 000 dollars
2006-07-31 - equity - 10 000 000 dollars
As you can see, in 6 years and a half, they have filled for a small fortune. I think this kind of numbers give a better idea on how expensive an operation like MLG is.
I'm not saying you should pay 20 dollars per event, but it is clear to me that have a desperate need to monetize the scene.
My informed point of view is you must be mentally challenged to invest any money on e-sports (except, maybe, for a small community based operation like TL, but without expecting any huge ROI). But well, good luck to MLG. Extremely insightful post right here. I know a lot of people are using the argument of why are tournaments popping up throughout 2011 as an symptom of its success and profitability, but people need to wait 5 years before making any judgement about SC2's ability to profit; because when people begin to invest it's not when the market is already turning a profit, but when people think there's potential to turn a profit. That said, I really think investing in Esports in the first place is an insane gamble. It could potentially pay off, but IMO the risks outweigh much of any potential profits. Lots of other less risky ventures to invest in that have just the same potential profits. but so far in this thread there's not a single credible source that shows competitive sc2 is not profitable. I don't see how people can say for certainty when they have no information outside of speculation What kind of source do you want? MrBitter (IMO, a credible source) has made a statement about it already, if you're curious: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310239¤tpage=7#127Assuming that tournaments are making a profit is a far more absurd assumption than going with the idea that they're all running at a deficit.
Be that as it may but if a company like DH/WCG and other tournaments that have been around for a long time would have had a huge deficit for the entire time then it's a no-brainer that they would have quit by now.
Also making money and making a profit are two entirely different things really. Real Madrid runs a deficit pretty much every year but they are still making shitloads of money because of loans, fundings etc. The fact that the numbers are red doesn't automatically mean that no one's getting rich, funny how the economy works sometimes huh 
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On February 14 2012 07:52 Dodgin wrote:Guess I am watching assembly. They are really shooting themselves in the foot trying to do this while another major event is going on at the same time. But I guess it is just a test. Poll: Will you pay for this?No (3762) 89% Yes (452) 11% 4214 total votes Your vote: Will you pay for this? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
After reading EGAlex's thread on the subject I am interested in the community response to a slightly different system, please vote in this poll if you did in the last one. Poll: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members?No (1520) 74% Yes (539) 26% 2059 total votes Your vote: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
And this is why esports will not be on mainstream media any time soon.
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On February 15 2012 06:36 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 06:31 ceaRshaf wrote:On February 15 2012 06:27 babylon wrote:On February 15 2012 06:22 iky43210 wrote:On February 15 2012 06:13 wklbishop wrote:On February 15 2012 05:51 legaton wrote:
So, i checked all the SEC fillings and this is the money invested in MLG
2011-11-23 - debt + option -2 500 000 dollars
2011-08-12 - debt + option - 3 083 328
2010-12-30 - equity - 3 333 353 dollars
2009-08-31 - equity - 3 499 995 dollars
2008-12-31 - equity + option - 7 500 000 dollars
2007-06-18 - equity - 1 400 000 dollars
2006-11-20 - equity - 25 000 000 dollars
2006-07-31 - equity - 10 000 000 dollars
As you can see, in 6 years and a half, they have filled for a small fortune. I think this kind of numbers give a better idea on how expensive an operation like MLG is.
I'm not saying you should pay 20 dollars per event, but it is clear to me that have a desperate need to monetize the scene.
My informed point of view is you must be mentally challenged to invest any money on e-sports (except, maybe, for a small community based operation like TL, but without expecting any huge ROI). But well, good luck to MLG. Extremely insightful post right here. I know a lot of people are using the argument of why are tournaments popping up throughout 2011 as an symptom of its success and profitability, but people need to wait 5 years before making any judgement about SC2's ability to profit; because when people begin to invest it's not when the market is already turning a profit, but when people think there's potential to turn a profit. That said, I really think investing in Esports in the first place is an insane gamble. It could potentially pay off, but IMO the risks outweigh much of any potential profits. Lots of other less risky ventures to invest in that have just the same potential profits. but so far in this thread there's not a single credible source that shows competitive sc2 is not profitable. I don't see how people can say for certainty when they have no information outside of speculation What kind of source do you want? MrBitter (IMO, a credible source) has made a statement about it already, if you're curious: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=310239¤tpage=7#127Assuming that tournaments are making a profit is a far more absurd assumption than going with the idea that they're all running at a deficit. I've spoken with many of these sponsors, and I've asked them the very straight question: "How the hell do you make any money in this business?", and the answer is always the same: "We don't."
The big, powerhouse sponsors - the multi-billion dollar corporations that have infinite money to throw around, continue to invest in e-sports, not for profit, but to modernize their image, and to appear "cool" in today's market. True story. This statement from Bitter has a negative tone to it BUT IT'S THE WAY THINGS HAVE TO BE!! It's not something bad. Sponsors invest for their image. It's getting exposure with money. It's not lose-lose situation but lose-win. If Sundance is having bad numbers at the end of the year it's bad, but still it might be his management and decision. Under no way the community can be blamed. Starcraft is blessed with one extremely charitable community and i am really mad that right now people say we are cheap. Yeah, i also don't get it. IEM for isntance is logically sponsored by Intel. Intel is paying that as part of their marketing. As long as Intel (or any other main sponsor) is happy with their return on investment there is no need for a tournament to make a profit, why should there? The problem arises when a sponsor is not feeling like he's getting back enough for it's bucks.. This is more likely to happen if you write deep red numbers, logically . Now when you look at MLG's "numbers" and compare them to others, you might get a clue why MLG is trying to make something happen because the other option would be to resize, which would be like admitting defeat?
Well it is like a slippery slope. If the tournament is not doing well and seeing declining numbers than the investors will see declining returns. As a result the investors will contribute less funding and the tournament quality will go down thus leading to even less profit. You need to make your business look like a worthy investment to any possible investors.
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On February 15 2012 06:11 zul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 06:04 Chill wrote:On February 15 2012 06:01 Quenchiest wrote:On February 15 2012 05:52 Chill wrote:On February 15 2012 05:38 Quenchiest wrote:On February 15 2012 05:34 cz wrote:On February 15 2012 05:33 legaton wrote:On February 15 2012 05:04 iky43210 wrote:On February 15 2012 04:19 legaton wrote:
Well, i guess we are just hearing the bubble pop
Today's business model is just not sustainable. Costs in the e-sports industry and specially in SC2 are extremely high. To run a LAN, you must face a huge investment for the location of the hall (several thousands dollars, if not more, for an MLG sized event). But SC2 LAN are specially expensive because you truly have a globalized game, so someone (either the teams or the event organizers) has to pay a small fortune on plane tickets. You also need a lot of fairly new computers as you could run into graphic lag if you use PC with bad graphic cards, and you need a top of the notch internet connection as you depend on it to play the game.
On the other hand, revenues are scarce. For a long time, the only sources of revenue were the entry fees of viewers (non existent on a closed door event as this one) and the ad revenue. Problem is the ad revenue is way smaller most people believe it is. Most events end up with red numbers, and huge event organizers are losing money. MLG only survives thanks to the gullibility of some venture capitalists that poured millions on a "booming" industry, but you can't ride for free forever. It is fair for them to try to cut their losses.
Sadly, MLG is fucked over. The ppp system works for sports events because they have a total monopoly on some sports. In boxing or in the UFC, you either pay or you don't see anything. In Starcraft, a 1000 euros monthly cup as the MSI/Millenium tournament has a roster as good as MLG. This business model is bound to fail too.
Bye bye SC2, it was nice knowing you. people ought to not use the word bubble when they have no idea what they're talking about. Also you provide alot of speculation with no citation whatsoever. MLG has been running for 10+ years, I doubt their previous ad-based model was constantly putting them in the red. Companies don't operate, even expand, on the basis of being red for so many years. So much for your speculations This isn't a case of "cutting your loses", its about attempting to use a new business model to achieve more profit. Simple as that. Nobody is dumb enough to "cut your loses" by paying tens of thousands of dollars ahead of time to fly everyone around the globe to NY, in addition to hire a huge list of expensive casters. Its an experimentation at the new model I'm going to show you something, it is called a SEC form: http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1371551/000137155111000001/xslFormDX01/primary_doc.xmlYou will see it was filled by MLG and they are selling debt + options on their business. They sold 3,1 millions. They have done this several times on the last years: You just need to search the SEC archives. http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?company=Major League Gaming Inc.&match=&CIK=&filenum=&State=&Country=&SIC=&owner=exclude&Find=Find Companies&action=getcompanyThe MLG costs a lot of money. It's a super expensive operation and they've been fairly successful at securing venture capital, but it seems they are burning money to exist. Everybody here is so delusional about the financial state of the "e-sports" scene. Not all of us. The e-sports audience is one of the most difficult audiences to monetize. It's full of people who are used to pirating / not paying for things and/or don't have credit cards / don't have much money. Really tough. It's not even so much that. It's that when you charge above and beyond what others are charging (or not charging) for similar events you're not going to get a lot of bites. I don't doubt there's some people that don't get it, but I'd say the majority probably realize this is an expensive business to run. That said, you can't just start gouging people because you need money and expect them to pay up. But everyone is losing money. The lesson here is that ESPORTS just isn't profitable. You either give it away undervalued like everyone else, or charge what it costs and get labeled "gouging". Lose/Lose. If 20 bucks for a weekend event is what it's ultimately going to cost then I'm afraid this business just isn't going to last very long unless someone can come up with a sustainable model. With the abundance of tournaments and free viewing it's going to be hard to convince anyone to drop 20 dollars on a weekend event. I agree. As I've said, I believe these companies undercut each other trying to give more and more value until nothing is sustainable anymore. It's become a game of chicken - bleed money until everyone else dies and then start charging what it really costs because you're now the monopoly. tbh I don`t mind if some "players" in the industry die. Demand and supply works for everything and if there is no demand for PPV SC2 tournaments, those who try it will fail. We will see (very soon) if that`s the case. I am 100% sure this industry has to work with sponsors or it wont work at all. Sure, extra cash can come from premium subscribtions or merchandise, but the larger part will always be paid from sponsors. If this limit the growth of eSport, I`m cool with it, but I`m sure this won`t kill it.
If they spent over 3M last year in expense, and only 125k (estimate on sum total of MLG prize pool last year for sc2) of that trickled down to the pro players, then why not find a way to support pro players directly.
That's what we should care about, creating a pro scene where the PLAYERs can have careers and futures. If the players are well taken care of, then the scene will thrive. Because the players are the ones most invested in SC2.... they give more than anyone. MLG is expecting SC2 to support their $3 million dollar per year expenses, with players getting only 3-5% of that.
The system is broken, if you reward it you'll be pushing the dynamics in the wrong direction.
In the NBA and NFL the players unions were just negiotating their revenue deals with those leagues. The revenue share in the NBA ended up being 50/50, whereas before it was 60/40 to the players. In the NFL, the players also receive about 50% of the yearly revenue.
Those league thrive, because their players thrive. Its worth it to try and be the best NFL player, becuase you'll make $22M per year for 8 years. This creates a huge passion in kids to become good at Football, or baseball, or basketball... because they can be "success" by achieving it.
These are estimate, but if MLG spent $3M last year, and lost money... lets say they made 2.8M last year then.
So of that 2.8M in revenue.... they gave 125k to the players
That's 4.4% ......
That means of your $20..... less than $1 will get to the players.
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Im hating on MLG so much right now, cuz it always was awesome to watch, just gimme that low quality stream i don´t care, it´s the atmosphere that counts, but cutting out the whole thang is just bad!
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On February 15 2012 05:51 legaton wrote:
So, i checked all the SEC fillings and this is the money invested in MLG
2011-11-23 - debt + option -2 500 000 dollars
2011-08-12 - debt + option - 3 083 328
2010-12-30 - equity - 3 333 353 dollars
2009-08-31 - equity - 3 499 995 dollars
2008-12-31 - equity + option - 7 500 000 dollars
2007-06-18 - equity - 1 400 000 dollars
2006-11-20 - equity - 25 000 000 dollars
2006-07-31 - equity - 10 000 000 dollars
As you can see, in 6 years and a half, they have filled for a small fortune. I think this kind of numbers give a better idea on how expensive an operation like MLG is.
I'm not saying you should pay 20 dollars per event, but it is clear to me that have a desperate need to monetize the scene.
My informed point of view is you must be mentally challenged to invest any money on e-sports (except, maybe, for a small community based operation like TL, but without expecting any huge ROI). But well, good luck to MLG.
If these numbers are true, than MLG fucked up before SC2 already. They had tons of money invested and 2011 was by far their most successful year (in viewers).
This new business model could be an act of desperation, but it won't work.
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On February 15 2012 06:39 Thorantham wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:52 Dodgin wrote:Guess I am watching assembly. They are really shooting themselves in the foot trying to do this while another major event is going on at the same time. But I guess it is just a test. Poll: Will you pay for this?No (3762) 89% Yes (452) 11% 4214 total votes Your vote: Will you pay for this? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
After reading EGAlex's thread on the subject I am interested in the community response to a slightly different system, please vote in this poll if you did in the last one. Poll: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members?No (1520) 74% Yes (539) 26% 2059 total votes Your vote: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
And this is why esports will not be on mainstream media any time soon.
The poll about gold members is kind of badly constructed since gold members (including myself) thought that gold membership would at least give 480p or something for this but nope, they found out they could rename it and give it a different charge model after they found out that they weren't making anymore money. If that poll would have been before you chose to have a gold membership or not I think that the result of the poll would have been way different.
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my Predictions is that more than the 75% of the viewers MLG had last season is goin to watch something else or decide to ride bikes that weekends. Sad to see a great Competition doin this to their loyal viewers. i understand that transmiting this events and bringing players/caster and other things arnt Cheap but u gonna cut the source of your income for what? the viewers and the community are all you look for so dont take that away from urself
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I am just interested in paying for things in esport.
Poll: Would you pay for a HD Stream for less than 10$?Yes (28) 60% No (19) 40% 47 total votes Your vote: Would you pay for a HD Stream for less than 10$? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
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On February 15 2012 06:40 00Visor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2012 05:51 legaton wrote:
So, i checked all the SEC fillings and this is the money invested in MLG
2011-11-23 - debt + option -2 500 000 dollars
2011-08-12 - debt + option - 3 083 328
2010-12-30 - equity - 3 333 353 dollars
2009-08-31 - equity - 3 499 995 dollars
2008-12-31 - equity + option - 7 500 000 dollars
2007-06-18 - equity - 1 400 000 dollars
2006-11-20 - equity - 25 000 000 dollars
2006-07-31 - equity - 10 000 000 dollars
As you can see, in 6 years and a half, they have filled for a small fortune. I think this kind of numbers give a better idea on how expensive an operation like MLG is.
I'm not saying you should pay 20 dollars per event, but it is clear to me that have a desperate need to monetize the scene.
My informed point of view is you must be mentally challenged to invest any money on e-sports (except, maybe, for a small community based operation like TL, but without expecting any huge ROI). But well, good luck to MLG. If these numbers are true, than MLG fucked up before SC2 already. They had tons of money invested and 2011 was by far their most successful year (in viewers). This new business model could be an act of desperation, but it won't work.
If it doestn work then I would think most tournaments are in a lot of trouble. Dreamhack is successful HSC is mildly successful and GSL is succesful and that is about it.
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Personally I don't see how people would say no to less than 10$ tickets, unless they literally can't afford it. I mean, it's not a bad deal in that case. It's not too amazing, but 10$ is at least comparable to a movie ticket or something.
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Keep in mind, the regular Pro Circuit will be just like last year, with the same streaming. The PPV content will be the new stuff, like Arena. This seems like an awesome way to make Barcrafts more popular. And besides, eSports is starting to get some real momentum, it has to be run like a business. The amount of free content they offer is actually surprising as is, in this day and age.
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On February 15 2012 06:39 Thorantham wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 07:52 Dodgin wrote:Guess I am watching assembly. They are really shooting themselves in the foot trying to do this while another major event is going on at the same time. But I guess it is just a test. Poll: Will you pay for this?No (3762) 89% Yes (452) 11% 4214 total votes Your vote: Will you pay for this? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
After reading EGAlex's thread on the subject I am interested in the community response to a slightly different system, please vote in this poll if you did in the last one. Poll: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members?No (1520) 74% Yes (539) 26% 2059 total votes Your vote: Would you pay if it was 10$ and 5$ for MLG Gold Members? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
And this is why esports will not be on mainstream media any time soon.
All other mainstream entertaining became mainstream without PPV but with a popular fan base. I mean : no, you're wrong.
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$4.95 for HD stream per event, agreed to by all major tournament holders. Gogo.
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If it was $10 then people would complain ESL's HD pass is $5, then they don't even do events of their own.
On February 15 2012 06:36 Naughty wrote:
While MLG produces quality games, and has decent casting, There product is not worth the $20s unless production and downtime is reduced greatly. Im paying $20 to watch hot pocket ad's and a crowed of people sitting in chairs.
The product being offered is the Arena event, of which there has been none.
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I think the MLG officials could learn from the ESL. The ESL has existed for a (at least in eSports) considerably long time and while the regular leagues are not that known outside their respective countries, the ESL brings us the IEM tournament series which is in my opinion very comparable to what the MLG tries to deliver.
I don't know the balance sheets of the ESL, but considering that it has successfully and fruitfully developed over the past years it makes me think that they have a pretty good business model.
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EPT
