EPTMLG Winter Arena to be PPV - Page 126
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Criticism is allowed. Undue flaming is not. Take a second to think your post through before you submit. Bans will be handed out. Should go without saying, but don't link restreams here either. | ||
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EzPz
Scotland64 Posts
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:16 Liquid`NonY wrote: No one ought to speak for you. As for myself, the GSL is a complete waste of money because it's at an atrocious hour. And if we're considering VOD's, well then MLG's are free and GSL's are not. Furthermore, I find the MLG Arena lineup of players more entertaining, as well as the (expected) commentators. I also like events that occur completely within one weekend, although I do prefer protracted events as a general rule. But the important fact here is that I strongly prefer having both on the scene rather than just one or the other. I also expect the Arena to have better content in the sense that I'll get to know the players better than I do with GSL. One thing that has been shown in the past year is that MLG produces more exciting and entertaining series than GSL does. GSL has a higher overall skill level and that's the only thing going for it. But in the opinion of just about everyone, MLG's skill level is high enough that it doesn't matter. And finally, I'm willing to spend some money on an interest that I deeply enjoy without having guarantees that it'll work out perfectly. If you are unwilling to try something until people with more passion and more money than you have invested in it and proven that it'll work, then that's simply one of your faults and shouldn't reflect poorly on anything or anyone but yourself. I think you'll find most people agree with his train of thought, though, and that's ultimately what counts. On February 15 2012 01:15 Prochainezo wrote: Just wow, that isn't how bussiness works at all. It is a shame that I have to explain this to you all, but I feel it is my duty seeing as how uninformed you all are. You can't go to a sponsor and say we have 20,000 free stream viewers. The first question they will ask is how much money you have made. If you say $0, then they dont care. The whole reason we need to monetise it is because it is only the money that informs bussiness decision. If you cant get people to pay for $1/hour high quality content that cost you thousands of dollars to set up, then why the hell would a sponsor think anyone would be willing to spend money on their products? This is a point that has been made so many times by numerous people within the industry. It is not just my opinion. It is how it works. I wonder if you realise the harm uninformed opinions like yours do on these kind of sites. Even if you aren't buying, you should be encouraging others to do so if they can afford it. Otherwise you are helping no-one, and perhaps even doing harm. Grow up. Really depends what you're trying to market. Quite obviously it doesn't apply for free to air TV - just because it doesn't directly make a cent in some countries doesn't mean that Mcdonalds is not gonna advertise on it because people are not going to afford Mcdonalds. In the same vein, if you're trying to market a $100 razer mouse to El Cheapo me, then I wish you the best of luck in your endeavour; you'll need it. However, Pepsi adverts would be quite reasonable. | ||
Chill
Calgary25991 Posts
On February 15 2012 00:52 Prochainezo wrote: Wow so many people here don't realise they are shooting themselves in the foot. Finally after a year of hoping that Starcraft would explode as an esport, an opportunity comes along where we can prove that it can be monetised and can be a sustainable bussiness that will have real profits (and not just free stream viewers) to show to bigger sponsors and secure larger investment... and you guys can't justify $1/hour of content. Don't you see that if you buy something because you want to support it (likely temporarily) instead of because you feel you got value from it, it will create a bubble of false value? As soon as people get tired of supporting it they will stop paying and the bubble pops. Bubble pop! | ||
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Casablancas
Denmark145 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:16 Liquid`NonY wrote: No one ought to speak for you. As for myself, the GSL is a complete waste of money because it's at an atrocious hour. And if we're considering VOD's, well then MLG's are free and GSL's are not. Furthermore, I find the MLG Arena lineup of players more entertaining, as well as the (expected) commentators. I also like events that occur completely within one weekend, although I do prefer protracted events as a general rule. But the important fact here is that I strongly prefer having both on the scene rather than just one or the other. I also expect the Arena to have better content in the sense that I'll get to know the players better than I do with GSL. One thing that has been shown in the past year is that MLG produces more exciting and entertaining series than GSL does. GSL has a higher overall skill level and that's the only thing going for it. But in the opinion of just about everyone, MLG's skill level is high enough that it doesn't matter. And finally, I'm willing to spend some money on an interest that I deeply enjoy without having guarantees that it'll work out perfectly. If you are unwilling to try something until people with more passion and more money than you have invested in it and proven that it'll work, then that's simply one of your faults and shouldn't reflect poorly on anything or anyone but yourself. Well, for non Americans the hours for MLG is not worth paying for. I dont see why they dont have a limited lowQ stream for free or a small price. Speaking of bang for buck I think DH, HS or GSL is way better than MLG after this announcement. | ||
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Underkoffer
Netherlands53 Posts
Edit: My opnion of this 'growing of esports' is: TV shows do not get paid either through consumers paying them directly. It mostly gets paid by the advertisements. E-sports can be thesame. | ||
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Witten
United States2094 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:15 Prochainezo wrote: Just wow, that isn't how bussiness works at all. What business works by charging more money for a product that an opponent is charging much less for? (Btw, sorry for only quoting one line, I just really needed to say this point. | ||
tofucake
Hyrule19190 Posts
1. There is something you want 2. You want it for free 3. It's free! 4. They should be better! Scenario B - What think it is now 1. There is something you want 2. You want it for free 3. It's not free! 4. Won't pay for it because it's not good enough to be worth money 5. Who cares there's other stuff comparable that I'll pay for! 6. Thing goes away completely, never to be seen again 7. Everyone is sad because they are marketing and accounting gurus who said "if only they'd not charged and just ran ads it would have been fine!" 8. People now start bitching that alternatives from (5) aren't as good as Thing was 9. Alternatives from (5) drop rates to keep people happy -> production value goes down 10. People complain more about alternatives 11. Alternatives return to original prices, everyone freaks out, stops paying 12. Alternatives shut down due to lack of funding 13. Pro scene is extinct 14. TL no longer has a purpose, shuts down forever Scenario C - What it would be if people would stop bitching 1. There is something you want 2. You want it for free 3. It's not free! 4. Pay for it, even though you think it's not really quite so good 5. Thing gets better because now it has more money to work with 6. Thing is now worth more than what you're paying for 7. Everyone is happy | ||
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Zennith
United States795 Posts
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Xcobidoo
Sweden1871 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:15 Prochainezo wrote: Just wow, that isn't how bussiness works at all. It is a shame that I have to explain this to you all, but I feel it is my duty seeing as how uninformed you all are. You can't go to a sponsor and say we have 20,000 free stream viewers. The first question they will ask is how much money you have made. If you say $0, then they dont care. The whole reason we need to monetise it is because it is only the money that informs bussiness decision. If you cant get people to pay for $1/hour high quality content that cost you thousands of dollars to set up, then why the hell would a sponsor think anyone would be willing to spend money on their products? This is a point that has been made so many times by numerous people within the industry. It is not just my opinion. It is how it works. I wonder if you realise the harm uninformed opinions like yours do on these kind of sites. Even if you aren't buying, you should be encouraging others to do so if they can afford it. Otherwise you are helping no-one, and perhaps even doing harm. Grow up. WHAT?! Have you heard of television and how channels that are free/comes with a low fee make their money? That's right, by commercials and sponsors. Companies don't look at said channel and say "hey, these guys have got a ton of viewers, but I guess since no one is paying for it, they won't buy our products". This is proven again and again. I don't know who your sources are for these things but the more people that watch from the demographic that you want to reach the better. If you go to the cinema there will be commercials for all the things that you as a "typical moviegoer" would buy. It's because they want to reach as many people as possible, they don't advertise there because you have paid for a ticket and is apparently ready to spend your money. Let's take this to a kids level: advertising on the street. Do the people who choose to advertise at a particular place care if they are shopping or just passing through? No. They care about how many people that can see their advertisement and what kind of people are likely to see it. | ||
nimdil
Poland3752 Posts
Plus 20$ may be a trip to the movies for you in US. It is a bit more outside America (unless you mean family ticket? - no idea) yet the MLG ticket is the same. | ||
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Artrey
Germany270 Posts
Transitioning from 10$ for 3 months (MLG silver, mostly worked to watch ~2 tournaments with one silver pass IIRC) to 20$ for one weekend is obviously going to feel like a total ripoff for every fan. So effectively I would have to pay 4 times as much for basically the same service. | ||
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PraetorianX
Sweden780 Posts
Won't watch. Simple as that. | ||
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Billd
Canada210 Posts
However, the fact that the poll is swayed so heavily toward No really worries me. To me, a weekend of fun costs more than 20$. Whether it be drinks, movie tickets and popcorn, a nice dinner, a concert, etc. All of these very common events are typically ONE night of fun and would actually cost more than 20$. Shouldn't we be okay with paying 20 bucks? Hell I used to rent a couple games and buy a few bags of chips from Blockbuster for 20 bucks to have a weekend of fun. I'll be paying. | ||
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Titorelli
2492 Posts
On February 14 2012 08:11 krisss wrote: JP, HOW ABOUT DISCUSSING THIS MLG format once in ur show? You critizise EVERY other major event. You ALWAYS find sth. How about u start once with MLG? I'm just sick that everyone that is involved with any coverage of big SC2 event is so freaking biased. JP, djwheat, artosis,.. They NEVER talk badly about anything that MLG produces (except extended series..). MLG put the date of the Arena exactly on the date where Assably takes place. No critzism from anyone (just some pathetic JP "well, we cant change it; it is how it is.. blabla") You randomly invite 139 players to the qualifiers, instead of making it an open q. Now you even charge 20 dollars for just being able to see this tournament. Sorry, now im just glad your date collided with ASUS ROG. gg no re. I just started to read around this thread and this really needs to be quoted even though its an relatively old post. It really has been bothering me since a long time... All that bias, that is. Thank you for that post! | ||
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Mynona
Belgium15 Posts
And now, you ask for more and my gold membership doesn't even cover the first event of this year ?? Im sorry but its a "no-no" ... i feel like MLG found some ways to make me pay twice for what i should have had from the beginning. I find this new system very unfair for the already gold members (you know, the ones who paid last year in place of using hot pocket vouchers)... and to be honest, it doesn't especially give me the desire to prolong my membership when it comes to an end if nothing changes. /end of rant | ||
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SovSov
United States755 Posts
On February 14 2012 18:48 syllogism wrote: How much profit do you think MLG has made out of sc2 so far? How much do you think they will? More than Halo or Call of Duty has ever provided them. It seems odd that the most successful eSport for MLG to this date is the one they decide to monetize so that they can "save eSports". This is what leads me to believe it is just greed motivating this decision, since we have the biggest community and the kindest community (most willing to pay money for content). If they tried to make something like Halo PPV it would literally get about 6 viewers because no one gives a shit about Halo enough. | ||
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Timerly
Germany511 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:13 Lord_J wrote: Sponsors do care about the demographic that's watching, though. And if 90% of that demographic is people who can't or won't spend $20 for a weekend of entertainment, then they might rightly wonder whether it's worth their money to advertise to that demographic. That's not really that easy either. Numbers count just as much as possible sales to the people watching. They count because the people they're targeting are multipliers and have so called expert properties, meaning other people will ask them for advice on what to buy even if the people themselves might not be spending the money. Because my parents ask me what stuff for computers to buy it might be a good idea to show me free streams with intel ads even if I didn't buy a computer for ages and probably won't for the next two years. So no, sponsors would probably still prefer the considerably bigger numbers if it was exclusive and here's the extra cherry on top: the bigger numbers here are ALWAYS preferrable for the sponsors because whoever would pay for the stream will probably watch it whether there's a LQ free stream or not. Obviously that's leaving out like ten other factors but please stop arguing with economics. If you don't work in that business or study it, it's not your place to judge it. | ||
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Shiori
3815 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:16 Liquid`NonY wrote: No one ought to speak for you. As for myself, the GSL is a complete waste of money because it's at an atrocious hour. And if we're considering VOD's, well then MLG's are free and GSL's are not. Furthermore, I find the MLG Arena lineup of players more entertaining, as well as the (expected) commentators. I also like events that occur completely within one weekend, although I do prefer protracted events as a general rule. But the important fact here is that I strongly prefer having both on the scene rather than just one or the other. I also expect the Arena to have better content in the sense that I'll get to know the players better than I do with GSL. One thing that has been shown in the past year is that MLG produces more exciting and entertaining series than GSL does. GSL has a higher overall skill level and that's the only thing going for it. But in the opinion of just about everyone, MLG's skill level is high enough that it doesn't matter. And finally, I'm willing to spend some money on an interest that I deeply enjoy without having guarantees that it'll work out perfectly. If you are unwilling to try something until people with more passion and more money than you have invested in it and proven that it'll work, then that's simply one of your faults and shouldn't reflect poorly on anything or anyone but yourself. You know, telling people they have personal flaws because they don't want to pay for something that they don't see value in probably isn't going to help your case. I am willing to spend money on MLG, and so are tonnes of people. I've bought pricey tickets to attend MLGs. I actually flew out and paid over 2 grand to attend an MLG with some friends. But I thought it was worth it. Why? I got to experience a completely different country (I'm from Canada and Orlando is really nice :D) and have a really fun 3 days. I think that PPV has potential for MLG, but 20$ for 3days is just obviously too much money. It's not that I don't trust them or something, it's that I really can't conceive of any possible production improvement they could make that would justify a 20$ price tag for a weekend, especially when GSL provides month-long content almost daily for the same price, and with better players. If you think GSL is a complete waste of money, fine. I don't agree, and neither do most of the people here. But nobody here is telling you that you're not supporting eSports, and GOM certainly isn't asking for charity the way MLG is. I think it's patently false that an MLG is anymore "exciting" than a GSL. At best, you could say they're similar. The level of play is certainly higher for GSL, and the prestige that GSL carries with it (and the difficulty of getting into it) pretty much guarantees that the finish will be dramatic. I feel like a big problem here is that some people don't find the actual games exciting and entertaining, but only care about the stories. Perhaps in this regard MLG events are "better" because they're condensed over 3 days and so the storylines are squished into a shorter time frame, giving them a larger dramatic focus. But for anyone who actually finds high level Starcraft exciting, GSL is easily the home of the best matches. That's not to say that MLG doesn't have any, but the GSL has them on a regular basis. You framed most of your post as personal preference, but the notion that MLG produces more exciting "series" is definitely not obvious. One could argue that the existence of the extended series alone tips the scales in favour of GSL. When I pick a tourney, I watch it because it has high level players competing for a coveted prize. Does MLG have this? Yeah, sometimes. But I can't think of a single GSL Code S (or even Code A, really) game that's a walkover. Even MVP loses more Code S seasons than he wins. Compare MLG: I've known at every Pro Circuit which players were going to 0-5 in their groups and which players were going to compete for top. I didn't bother watching the games that were basically a foregone conclusion. Another example: IEM Sao Paolo. Weak player pool. I only watched games with Violet/Supernova because it was obvious that they were the only real contenders (forgetting one or two players, but I'm trying for as much brevity as can be had). Finally, what made Pro Circuit good was the live, crowd experience. A studio event is basically the MLG version of the GSL. And in that regard, it is not suited for a 3day format, is not as good as the GSL, and therefore does not deserve my money. | ||
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GleaM
United States207 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:27 tofucake wrote: Scenario A - How it was 1. There is something you want 2. You want it for free 3. It's free! 4. They should be better! Scenario B - What think it is now 1. There is something you want 2. You want it for free 3. It's not free! 4. Won't pay for it because it's not good enough to be worth money 5. Who cares there's other stuff comparable that I'll pay for! 6. Thing goes away completely, never to be seen again 7. Everyone is sad because they are marketing and accounting gurus who said "if only they'd not charged and just ran ads it would have been fine!" 8. People now start bitching that alternatives from (5) aren't as good as Thing was 9. Alternatives from (5) drop rates to keep people happy -> production value goes down 10. People complain more about alternatives 11. Alternatives return to original prices, everyone freaks out, stops paying 12. Alternatives shut down due to lack of funding 13. Pro scene is extinct 14. TL no longer has a purpose, shuts down forever Scenario C - What it would be if people would stop bitching 1. There is something you want 2. You want it for free 3. It's not free! 4. Pay for it, even though you think it's not really quite so good 5. Thing gets better because now it has more money to work with 6. Thing is now worth more than what you're paying for 7. Everyone is happy Scenario C: I'm still paying to watch starcraft. No. Give me old MLG. I'm a broke college student. And broke college students watch assembly. | ||
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Prochainezo
United Kingdom14 Posts
On February 15 2012 01:10 Xcobidoo wrote: And how do you think the fanbase for sports that have been around forever were built up. By charging insane prices in their infancy? No way josé, they were built brick by brick until it could sustain itself by selling merchandise etc. Each season making their product better when people were ready to pay more. That's the way empires are built. Favoring money over growth is how a bubble is blown and a card house is stacked. There are two kinds of sports to consider here. 1. The ones that already have a huge fanbase (baseball,basketball,football,soccer) because they are games that everyone is familiar with. 2. The ones that are starting from nothing and have to slowly build themselves. I will analyse both so you understand quite how wrong you are. 1. This is the easiest, you already have the fanbase, so you just need to make people aware of your content. Investors should be easy to find seeing as everyone is familiar with your game. Sponsors are happy to associate themselves with something everyone is familiar with. Bussiness may be slow at first, but with so many potential consumers and so much financial backing you can grow until you are big enough sustain yourself. This I beleive is what you mistakenly think starcraft is capable of. This is also the main reason why we cant compare starcraft to other sports, now onto the second case. 2. You are a small promoter looking to build a sports bussiness from scratch. There is a small hardcore fanbase, that you know you will have to rely on to succeed. Eventually you hope to reach a point where you can gain enough interest to obtain big sponsors and hopefully make people more fimiliar with your sport. This is how wrestling/UFC/boxing all began, and to survive they had to milk their fanbase for all it was worth until they could sustain themselves and prove to investors/sponsors they were legit. Certainly for those 3 sports there were times when it was the T-shirt sales that were keeping the promoters afloat. Now consider which catagory starcraft most likely falls into. As with any start-up sport, the money has to be injected from the fanbase, whether you obtain that money by PPV/t-shirt sales/ticket sales doesn't matter. It needs to come from somewhere though. Now consider where MLG makes money. All of the fans are too cheap to buy merchandise. Tickets do not account for the millions spent on the events because of the high tech equipment required to run them. Sponsors see that most people aren't familiar with starcraft, and are currently not paying enough to keep the bussiness afloat. Investors are the only thing keeping MLG in the black, but as Alex Garfield said, relying only on investors is a sure way for your bussiness to crash and burn. Now MLG is doing the right thing, by offering HQ PPV content alongside its regular free stream season, and you are all acting like its completely unreasonable. Frankly, if I were Sundance, I would have given up on this community a long time ago. | ||
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