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On April 13 2012 09:13 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 09:23 xShade wrote:
When I play I ladder, but it's pretty casually. The game is pretty boring if you play it everyday for hours. Not to mention 50% of the time when I lose I just get BM'd either near the end of the game or after the game. They'll often send me a message and tell me how bad I am. I guess it gives them some sort of satisfaction, not really sure. Guess trolling is just too much fun for some people. How do you know if you haven't done it? I'm pretty sure most pro-gamers and other people who play that much would disagree.
Because I did do it, sometime around season 2 or season 3. Played a couple hundred games during one of those seasons. It eventually got terribly boring. Obviously there's people that enjoy playing that often, but I'm not one of them.
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On April 13 2012 12:53 HypernovA wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 11:12 JJH777 wrote:
It's because Blizzard destroyed battle.net. The reason I played WarCraft III for 8 years pretty much without ever taking a significant break was because of the community and custom games. I laddered a lot as well but if you remove those other two (which SC2 basically did) then people including myself just lose the will to play. While this may be true, WC3 has survived for so long as well because of Dota (I know its a custom game but it did spawn an entire new genre of games)
Disagree, I stuck with Brood War for years because of the custom games and the chat channels, including WC3. I love SC but SC2 is showing no real awesomeness that the majority of blizzard games back then did. I will tell you I used to sit and play diablo 2 for hours and hours, and I wouldnt stop playing until I was like a 90 on all the characters or higher.
I just feel that I am losing satisfaction of playing in sc2 because of the leagues. If there was no leagues or the leagues were not like they are and more like just measuring your win/lose like in WC3 this game would be amazing. It is just I am sick of everytime I say something and I am not a high masters / Grandmasters I am shutdown, made fun of my play, called a scrub, etc. In broodwar's community, Yes I am only D in ICCUP, but my opinion matters and I am listened to even though I suck at the game.
All that to say, the community is the real problem in SC2, you ask for help in Broodwar you are generally greeted kindly and shown or you can talk with people who will coach you for free. This game is just boring, to say the least, and generally the community is a bunch of pricks who think they are better than someone IRL because of a rank in their profile. (At least that is the attitude I am getting from a majority of the people in SC2, while there are some who are "cool" and nice I would say probably at least 70% of the community acts like this).
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On April 13 2012 13:02 xUnSeEnx wrote:
I just feel that I am losing satisfaction of playing in sc2 because of the leagues. If there was no leagues or the leagues were not like they are and more like just measuring your win/lose like in WC3 this game would be amazing. It is just I am sick of everytime I say something and I am not a high masters / Grandmasters I am shutdown, made fun of my play, called a scrub, etc. In broodwar's community, Yes I am only D in ICCUP, but my opinion matters and I am listened to even though I suck at the game.
Nope. You have some sort of cognitive bias going on. Just as a gold player has no place discussing SC2 balance, a D ranked player didn't and still doesn't had/has no place discussing BW balance, and was treated the same way.
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Honestly? Cheese. No, not because of balance or anything like that. I'm too far below a level for that to be any relevant. I know I'm supposed to "lose until you figure out how to win against it" but honestly I just don't find it fun anymore. Not to mention almost 1/2 of my games are PvP (yay diamond protoss) and that by default is a terrible experience.
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I love the game, but when I get on a massive losing streak, I tend to quit for a few days to cool down. Getting much better, though. Going to place for S7 and begin laddering again tomorrow. Hopefully it goes well.
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On April 12 2012 07:55 Zeroxk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2012 07:43 Witten wrote:On April 12 2012 07:29 ishyishy wrote:On April 12 2012 07:26 ziggurat wrote:On April 12 2012 07:05 Xirroh wrote:
Bliz should create casual BNet tournaments for weekends just like online poker websites run.
This would be a lot of fun, and give you something to work for without needing more then a 4-5 hour commitment whenever you have a free weekend day.
Basically you sign up into a 32 or 64 man bracket and it puts you in to BO1 or BO3 through the bracket. No-shows become walkovers. No cost to enter. Everything is automated with a group chat channel created for the tournament players. They definitely should do this. In fact it seems incredibly obvious. This would be so much fun. It would be way better than just laddering. This is already happening: its called beyond gaming and playhem lol. (also z33k.com) I think he means tournaments where you actually have a chance, not tournaments full of high masters and grandmasters who will crush you in round 1 or 2 of a gigantic tournament bracket. A gold league tournament, or a silver league tournament or a completely random tournament of normal players, not full of pros and semi-pros, would be very enjoyable for most players under the level or masters. As it is there's no reason to join a playhem so a random mid-masters player can crush my platinum heart. How come you've missed Playhem's daily lower league tourneys? Just look at this: http://playhem.com/#!/tourney/18973. If you're complaining about the prize pool that's just silly.
I visit Team Liquid every single day, watch scores of tournaments and consider myself more knowledgeable than the average Sc2 player (probably lower than most people on TL, but TL is a small minority compared to all who have bought Sc2). Despite all of that I had never ever heard of this. If someone like me who consumes Sc2 news and info on an incredibly regular basis doesn't know this tournament, it's highly probable the average Sc2 player hasn't heard about these either.
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I don't play 1v1 because it's just not as fun as the other game modes. The game might be balanced around 1v1, the strategies might be built around 1v1, but for more than half the playerbase that actually means diddly squat because the fundamentals aren't there.
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On April 13 2012 12:59 xShade wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 09:13 ZAiNs wrote:On April 12 2012 09:23 xShade wrote:
When I play I ladder, but it's pretty casually. The game is pretty boring if you play it everyday for hours. Not to mention 50% of the time when I lose I just get BM'd either near the end of the game or after the game. They'll often send me a message and tell me how bad I am. I guess it gives them some sort of satisfaction, not really sure. Guess trolling is just too much fun for some people. How do you know if you haven't done it? I'm pretty sure most pro-gamers and other people who play that much would disagree. Because I did do it, sometime around season 2 or season 3. Played a couple hundred games during one of those seasons. It eventually got terribly boring. Obviously there's people that enjoy playing that often, but I'm not one of them.
ive played for a small team which gave me a small amount of money and some other goodys while playing for them,retired after season 1 since it took toooooo much time playing all day long and my grades went shit, and i just can fail studying because of a game..
when u get something for playing of course it does not get boring in that way it gets boring when u play without getting some kind of salary
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2. gain something from playing ladder games, such as getting points to purchase items like in LoL (encourages casual players to ladder)
I think that is a great idea
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On April 13 2012 16:52 HEROwithNOlegacy wrote:
2. gain something from playing ladder games, such as getting points to purchase items like in LoL (encourages casual players to ladder)
I think that is a great idea
And we'd have more "portrait farmers" and people who cheese 100% games only because they want the items, not because they enjoy the game.
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The sc2ranks site seems horribly broken, it's still showing season 5.
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I think a large portion comes from two factors:
Community and improvement.
I know after I lost at IPL 4, I had no desire for this game. Came home, qued a placement match, and really had no desire to play it, so I instantly left and uninstalled my clients. When I play something, I want to be great. Looking at how big of a skill gap there is between most foreign players and Koreans at IPL made me realize how much time I'd have to dedicate to this game to be great; this is not appealing to me.
In BW, I'd play here or there, but would spend a large portion of my time chat crafting. There was a community aspect to it that kept me involved, and I would que a game here or there as well.
Beyond the chat aspect, lobbies, custom games, etc, if Blizzard implemented a system to allow people to view other's matches(such as DOTA 2 has), I think that would be a huge boost in player base. Sure, most players aren't really anything special to watch... but even 4-5 viewers of the match would be huge incentives for people to play a little more. Similar to when I'm streaming, if I have 20+ viewers, I stay on much longer playing.
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I personally have gotten tired of playing. SC2 feels so much more stale than BW and maybe I just need a race change but I am sick of playing 100 pvzs on ladder all day. BW you could choose your match ups in ICCup and focus on certain maps much easier than SC2. I might start playing again as a new race or wait for HOTS.
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On April 13 2012 13:02 xUnSeEnx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 12:53 HypernovA wrote:On April 13 2012 11:12 JJH777 wrote:
It's because Blizzard destroyed battle.net. The reason I played WarCraft III for 8 years pretty much without ever taking a significant break was because of the community and custom games. I laddered a lot as well but if you remove those other two (which SC2 basically did) then people including myself just lose the will to play. While this may be true, WC3 has survived for so long as well because of Dota (I know its a custom game but it did spawn an entire new genre of games) Disagree, I stuck with Brood War for years because of the custom games and the chat channels, including WC3. I love SC but SC2 is showing no real awesomeness that the majority of blizzard games back then did. I will tell you I used to sit and play diablo 2 for hours and hours, and I wouldnt stop playing until I was like a 90 on all the characters or higher. I just feel that I am losing satisfaction of playing in sc2 because of the leagues. If there was no leagues or the leagues were not like they are and more like just measuring your win/lose like in WC3 this game would be amazing. It is just I am sick of everytime I say something and I am not a high masters / Grandmasters I am shutdown, made fun of my play, called a scrub, etc. In broodwar's community, Yes I am only D in ICCUP, but my opinion matters and I am listened to even though I suck at the game. All that to say, the community is the real problem in SC2, you ask for help in Broodwar you are generally greeted kindly and shown or you can talk with people who will coach you for free. This game is just boring, to say the least, and generally the community is a bunch of pricks who think they are better than someone IRL because of a rank in their profile. (At least that is the attitude I am getting from a majority of the people in SC2, while there are some who are "cool" and nice I would say probably at least 70% of the community acts like this).
My first impulse was to disagree with you... then I thought about why I never really laddered seriously. The whole "competition" aspect of leagues really is too annoying. Maybe that's not applicable to a lot of people... but being on top is important for me. The continual reminder that I suck and need to get better is actually a turnoff because it'd take a good amount of work to improve, and at the end of the day, this is only a video game. Leagues are great for people who take a game very seriously, but they might not have been the best option to keep casual gamers interested.
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On April 13 2012 19:36 -ForeverAlone- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 13:02 xUnSeEnx wrote:On April 13 2012 12:53 HypernovA wrote:On April 13 2012 11:12 JJH777 wrote:
It's because Blizzard destroyed battle.net. The reason I played WarCraft III for 8 years pretty much without ever taking a significant break was because of the community and custom games. I laddered a lot as well but if you remove those other two (which SC2 basically did) then people including myself just lose the will to play. While this may be true, WC3 has survived for so long as well because of Dota (I know its a custom game but it did spawn an entire new genre of games) Disagree, I stuck with Brood War for years because of the custom games and the chat channels, including WC3. I love SC but SC2 is showing no real awesomeness that the majority of blizzard games back then did. I will tell you I used to sit and play diablo 2 for hours and hours, and I wouldnt stop playing until I was like a 90 on all the characters or higher. I just feel that I am losing satisfaction of playing in sc2 because of the leagues. If there was no leagues or the leagues were not like they are and more like just measuring your win/lose like in WC3 this game would be amazing. It is just I am sick of everytime I say something and I am not a high masters / Grandmasters I am shutdown, made fun of my play, called a scrub, etc. In broodwar's community, Yes I am only D in ICCUP, but my opinion matters and I am listened to even though I suck at the game. All that to say, the community is the real problem in SC2, you ask for help in Broodwar you are generally greeted kindly and shown or you can talk with people who will coach you for free. This game is just boring, to say the least, and generally the community is a bunch of pricks who think they are better than someone IRL because of a rank in their profile. (At least that is the attitude I am getting from a majority of the people in SC2, while there are some who are "cool" and nice I would say probably at least 70% of the community acts like this). My first impulse was to disagree with you... then I thought about why I never really laddered seriously. The whole "competition" aspect of leagues really is too annoying. Maybe that's not applicable to a lot of people... but being on top is important for me. The continual reminder that I suck and need to get better is actually a turnoff because it'd take a good amount of work to improve, and at the end of the day, this is only a video game. Leagues are great for people who take a game very seriously, but they might not have been the best option to keep casual gamers interested.
Reverse that argument. What you are basically saying is that you want to feel good even though you are bad and not actually know or not have a statistic telling you how good you are.
Is that really what you want? Something telling you "you are awesome!" even though you know that you are not?
I think that even casual gamers can enjoy competition, even if they have to admit that they are not as good as others.
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A bit bored with the game personally. I need HoTS to bring me back.
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On April 13 2012 16:52 HEROwithNOlegacy wrote:
2. gain something from playing ladder games, such as getting points to purchase items like in LoL (encourages casual players to ladder)
I think that is a great idea
I think thats a fucking terrible idea.
When i buy a game i want to play the game in full not have to play it for 80 hours to unlock some uber weapon that then unbalances the game for everyone else. (Or pay extra to get it early)
That sounds like a shitty game that introduces grind just to make people play it for longer before they come to their senses and realise that yes it is a shitty game.
IE games with grind usually have it in to incentivise play because the game itself is not an incentive to play ....
People forget that the ONLY purpose of the ladder from a game perspective is to match peopel up with fairly even games. The whole lets show everyone their rank thing was a terrible afterthought. Is the game starcraft 2 or is the game getting yourself higher up a ladder? They ARE 2 very different games.
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On April 13 2012 20:15 MrTortoise wrote:
I think thats a fucking terrible idea.
When i buy a game i want to play the game in full not have to play it for 80 hours to unlock some uber weapon that then unbalances the game for everyone else. (Or pay extra to get it early)
That sounds like a shitty game that introduces grind just to make people play it for longer before they come to their senses and realise that yes it is a shitty game.
IE games with grind usually have it in to incentivise play because the game itself is not an incentive to play ....
People forget that the ONLY purpose of the ladder from a game perspective is to match peopel up with fairly even games. The whole lets show everyone their rank thing was a terrible afterthought. Is the game starcraft 2 or is the game getting yourself higher up a ladder? They ARE 2 very different games.
I'm assuming you're taking his post out of context. I don't think he necessarily means get better units. I think he's more referring to something such as new portraits, etc.
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On April 13 2012 20:15 MrTortoise wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 16:52 HEROwithNOlegacy wrote:
2. gain something from playing ladder games, such as getting points to purchase items like in LoL (encourages casual players to ladder)
I think that is a great idea I think thats a fucking terrible idea. When i buy a game i want to play the game in full not have to play it for 80 hours to unlock some uber weapon that then unbalances the game for everyone else. (Or pay extra to get it early) That sounds like a shitty game that introduces grind just to make people play it for longer before they come to their senses and realise that yes it is a shitty game. IE games with grind usually have it in to incentivise play because the game itself is not an incentive to play .... People forget that the ONLY purpose of the ladder from a game perspective is to match peopel up with fairly even games. The whole lets show everyone their rank thing was a terrible afterthought. Is the game starcraft 2 or is the game getting yourself higher up a ladder? They ARE 2 very different games.
Jeez, you took that post way, way out of context and strawmanned it to oblivion. It's not even relevant because unfortunately for you theres already achievements and portraits rewarded for winning. And I love them.
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On April 13 2012 19:48 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 19:36 -ForeverAlone- wrote:On April 13 2012 13:02 xUnSeEnx wrote:On April 13 2012 12:53 HypernovA wrote:On April 13 2012 11:12 JJH777 wrote:
It's because Blizzard destroyed battle.net. The reason I played WarCraft III for 8 years pretty much without ever taking a significant break was because of the community and custom games. I laddered a lot as well but if you remove those other two (which SC2 basically did) then people including myself just lose the will to play. While this may be true, WC3 has survived for so long as well because of Dota (I know its a custom game but it did spawn an entire new genre of games) Disagree, I stuck with Brood War for years because of the custom games and the chat channels, including WC3. I love SC but SC2 is showing no real awesomeness that the majority of blizzard games back then did. I will tell you I used to sit and play diablo 2 for hours and hours, and I wouldnt stop playing until I was like a 90 on all the characters or higher. I just feel that I am losing satisfaction of playing in sc2 because of the leagues. If there was no leagues or the leagues were not like they are and more like just measuring your win/lose like in WC3 this game would be amazing. It is just I am sick of everytime I say something and I am not a high masters / Grandmasters I am shutdown, made fun of my play, called a scrub, etc. In broodwar's community, Yes I am only D in ICCUP, but my opinion matters and I am listened to even though I suck at the game. All that to say, the community is the real problem in SC2, you ask for help in Broodwar you are generally greeted kindly and shown or you can talk with people who will coach you for free. This game is just boring, to say the least, and generally the community is a bunch of pricks who think they are better than someone IRL because of a rank in their profile. (At least that is the attitude I am getting from a majority of the people in SC2, while there are some who are "cool" and nice I would say probably at least 70% of the community acts like this). My first impulse was to disagree with you... then I thought about why I never really laddered seriously. The whole "competition" aspect of leagues really is too annoying. Maybe that's not applicable to a lot of people... but being on top is important for me. The continual reminder that I suck and need to get better is actually a turnoff because it'd take a good amount of work to improve, and at the end of the day, this is only a video game. Leagues are great for people who take a game very seriously, but they might not have been the best option to keep casual gamers interested. Reverse that argument. What you are basically saying is that you want to feel good even though you are bad and not actually know or not have a statistic telling you how good you are. Is that really what you want? Something telling you "you are awesome!" even though you know that you are not? I think that even casual gamers can enjoy competition, even if they have to admit that they are not as good as others.
That's exactly what he's saying.
Most people just don't have the guts to accept the fact that they aren't good at something and need to train and work to get better. They want to see some artificial "You gained a level!" message every 20 minutes.
We already see Blizzard trying to appease these people with the fake Bonus Pool points and splitting things into Divisions... but sadly, some people won't be happy until their interface just displays a big gold star, A+, "YOU DID GREAT!" message at all times.
We'll never make these people happy without compromising the game for players who actually want a challenge and something to work at.
People praise BW and WC3 (both awesome games that I played a ton), but forget how horrible the ladders were on those games. Third parties had to come in and save the games by making a decent league/ladder system.
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EPT
