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On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either.
Zerg here
That's exactly the problem i have when I play protoss. I'm not the highest rated player ever (around 1.1k last season) but no matter what i do vs Protoss no matter what i do, no matter what they scout, they try to kill me with zealot voidray or immortal sentry 9/10 times and it's so hard to hold these pushes compared to executing them.
It seems like protoss players arent even aware when they should attack you with what build. Weither i go fast 3th or no 3th at all the same pushs come yet i'm still unable to hold them in certain situations (which might explain why they do them) but please it cant be right that a race can play like that
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On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either.
Hallelujah.
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Only semi-relevant, but does it seem like zergs are by far the most BM/whiney on the ladder?
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On February 19 2012 18:49 Drowsy wrote:
Only semi-relevant, but does it seem like zergs are by far the most BM/whiney on the ladder?
we are still used to the times were you lost 33% of your matches alone to close spawns and had a tough fight against players because weither they 4 gated or went for expo + colossus play you were always on the back foot trying to learn how to hold off stuff.
Now adays it's still pretty much the same. Zerg sits back looks what is coming his way trys to stop it and wins 60% of the games like that
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I think that day9 could save the day by making a daily to explain to noobs that challenge is fun and how to see your progress and whatever. Some people just want you to tell them what to do. Apply to RL too sadly.
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I dont ladder because I consider TvP late game to be imbalanced.
That's just my personal opinion obviously.
So I just play custom 1vs1.
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I don't play anymore because whenever I do my first 10 games look like this:
Games 1 through 6: ZvZ
Game 7: Terran proxy 2raxed me
Games 8-10: ZvZ
And then I stop playing for 2 months.
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Probably because dealing with 'cheese'/all ins (especially when some come with BM) in 8/10 games isn't fun for most people, even if it's 'free wins' (unless they turn into ridiculous fun games, which is pretty rare). Having ~20% chance to have a nice fun macro game imo isn't worth the headache.
I'd personally play more 2v2 (where 8/10 games are 'cheese'/all ins as well) with a friend, because hey, everything is more fun with a friend, but the 2v2 maps have never changed in the whole 6 seasons and are very stale. Aside from the occasional monobattle out of boredom, I'd rather watch tournaments or Axslav and Vibe defend 'cheese'/all ins with commentary than personally defend them and hoping for that rare one fun game that goes passed the mid game. 
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On February 19 2012 19:07 DoomsVille wrote:
I don't play anymore because whenever I do my first 10 games look like this:
Games 1 through 6: ZvZ
Game 7: Terran proxy 2raxed me
Games 8-10: ZvZ
And then I stop playing for 2 months.
We are extinct on the ladder~~ :3 Nowadays whenever I get a tvt i honestly just jump for joy and cry tears of happiness
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On February 19 2012 18:36 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 17:51 ZiegFeld wrote:
I don't get why you people stop playing below top Masters level though. Cheeses are equivalent to free wins, which allows you to play better players that don't cheese.
Unless your skill level doesn't permit you to block cheeses, in which case you would probably lose every single game against skilled macro players. There are lots of builds that take close to 0 skill to execute but will give you free wins vs a lot of normal openings. It's stupid. Protoss allins are the worst (literally does not take any skill what so ever to execute mass gateway builds, just warpin and force field the bunkers and wait for terran to die/win depending on what build the terran picked), but terran and zerg allins aren't exactly brimming with skill requirement either. Jinro. *bow*
Understandable though. A 4 gate can crush 1 rax expand, a Void Ray all in is instant win against Reaper expand. I can't imagine how frustrating that is in Korean servers where it's executed to perfection.
But for most Joes out there in the Western servers, solid mentality and game play will get you to top Masters. Nothing really preventing you from a good time except perhaps a good playlist and turning on the mute option. In other words, you're not Jinro, you're not Idra, your not playing to eat. Watch those replays and figure out the subtle signals of cheap builds, and you'll suddenly find yourself smiling. (Being a ex GM, nothing compared to your experience but I can say I know the fundamentals)
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The poll should have an option:
"I still play Starcraft 2, but only 1vs1 custom."
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No wonder that more and more people turn away from ladder. Ladder is the source of practice for most people because:
bnet 2.0 don't help you get in contact with other players cuz of poor chat system, no clan support and awful custom game system.
Therefore, you play ladder to practice and improve, but here is the problem:
You can't select matchup or map, so blizzard chooses for you what to practice (the same goes in bnet 2.0 custom games). So you get to play Protoss 7/10 times I swear to god. You wanna play to improve, you get to play people that play for wins and portraits, so you waste your time on people cheesing or all-inning. Win or loss, it's a waste of time for you. And the map pool will probably never change this. Even now when we have almost only good macro maps people cheese or all-inn you even more because it's 2 player maps or cross/close air only so there is no risk to miss your timing because you have to scout where your opponent is.
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It has probably been said over and over again in this thread, but I think it really comes down to B.net 2.0. Back in my WC3 days, the whole system just made it so easy to make friends, which made it a hell of a lot easier to keep playing. When I play SC2, which is normally just ladder, I'm always doing it by myself. In WC3, I was always talking with friends while playing, and then after a game of ladder probably play a random custom game with clan-mates. When Blizzard fixes the shit that is B.net 2.0, I will probably come back to laddering, but at the moment I just do not find the pure laddering as fun as doing it while interacting with friends that I made through the game.
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Let me comment on some of the subjects that people has brought up as to why people leave. Then I'll give my own explanation.
Maphack:
As a developer, who has made private hacks (never distributed) to both Aion, Modern Warfare 2 and Starcraft 2 I can tell you this. Making hacks is fun. It can sometimes be a lot more fun than playing games. Using hacks though will kill every enthusiasm, adrenaline rush and excitment of a game. Once you get to the stage where you're not facing any competition, then you get bored and move on.
I won't lie. In Aion I made a very advanced bot, which I used for around a month. I realised I was paying for a game that my bot was playing, not myself, so I quit.
In Modern Warfare 2 I had a blast. However every now and then my killstreaks would end due to people using aimbot/walhack. I got frustrated and started googling for cheats. I quickly realised that the only reliable cheats were being sold... So I thought to myself, hey I'm a developer, I should be able to make my own. I was lucky enough to find an open source Modern Warfare 2 hack that I started contributing to and modifying for my own use.
The hack has no dependencies to the Modern Warfare 2 process. I didn't inject dlls, I didn't modify existing assemblies. All I did was read offsets from the current Modern Warfare 2 process to find player locations, then rendered the players as boxes on top of my Modern Warfare 2 game... In other words my hack was 100 percent undetectable and I used it obviously hoping I'd get banned, because I couldn't believe how blind Eye Infinity was to all the hacks that were used. After playing around 40-50 games in a row where I'd end each game with a 25 killstreak followed by a nuke, I got fed up and quit.
In Starcraft 2 I never used any hacks. As a developer what thrives me, is creativity, enhancing my skills and testing what I'm capable of. So when I first heard of people complaining about maphacks my first thought was, no way... My second thought was, I need to try that. It took me less than 2 hours (15-20) lines of code to develop a program that would disable FoW.
I had a dilemma though. I knew cheating would kill the game for me. I was also well aware that unlike any other game, people invest time and money, fully dedicate themselves to make a living in SC2, so I felt like I would damage their livelihood by cheating, so I didn't. To test if I could disable FoG war in a ladder match, I joined 3 1vs1 matches, disabled FoW and lost all 3 games on purpose. After that I deleted the source code and the compiled assemblies, but strange enough I didn't get any satisfaction or sense of accomplishment as I did with my bot in Aion or aim/wallhack in MW2... quite the contrary I got this creepy feeling thinking to myself... how many people has actually earned their Grand Master title? I also felt angry thinking, how many cheaters I might have engaged when I was trying to make it to Grand Master?
Ok that was offtopic... I got carried away. What I really want to say is the vast majority of players who cheat in SC2 doesn't get any advantages and they kill their own fun. The better player will be able to scout/adapt while having the advantage of better micro and macro, which will make it an auto win. Now the small number of good players who use map hack, they are the ones close to impossible to beat, BUT how much fun is it to win 50 games in a row without ever being close to losing? Part of the reason why a WIN in a SC2 ladder match is so much fun, is due to all the anxiety before you hit that play button. It's so rewarding getting a win, when you know you have beaten your opponent, set traps for him/her and been able to adapt and counter all their moves... When you use cheat though, you are playing a chess game where you already know all your opponents moves...
Again offtopic. Let me finish this in one sentence so I can move on. I think, I'm pretty sure that... no, I know for a fact that 99 percent of cheaters only exist temporary. They either get banned or they quit. And my impression of the SC2 community is that cheating is something that happens very rarely, so I don't think maphack can explain a drop of 1.5 million players.
All ins:
I don't see what this is an issue? During one time I used to 6 pool against every Protoss player I met and it worked in 4/5 games. This was in Master league. During one time I started doing marine all in as well. I've had a lot of success with my all ins and rushing strategies. After a lot of games, I realised I was a "Master Rusher" as stupid and cheesy as it might sound. I felt like I was missing out, because the game has so much to offer... I wanted to use other units than roaches and lings/blings. I wanted Brood lords, Ultralisks, 5 bases, huge battles... but my macro wasn't up to pair with Master players, and I had rushed for so long that I had forgotten the time windows of taking expansions, pushing, etc. etc. I went all the way to Bronze (regret it so much, I should have gone to platinum) won a lot of games, then started losing a few in platinum and a lot in diamond before I managed to get back to Master league.
I ended feeling like although winning 10 all in fights feel rewarding, losing 5 and winning 5 macro games feel even more rewarding.
Whenever I play I always scout all-ins and write something in the line of "You have no idea what you're getting into", lean back and have a laugh as I nullify every single cheese they try to pull up from their sleeve. I play passively and deny them to expand afterwards, and push their morales to new low points making them quit in frustrated. Sorry, I have a sick sense of fun.
So in other words, stopping all ins is easy. You only need to know how. Once you know how, it's a matter of early scouting or losing to cheese. So no, I don't believe 1.5 million people quit because they kept losing to all-ins... it's the easiest thing to counter. And I don't think 1.5 million people cheesed and chose to stop either, due to being countered...
League Progression:
A lot of players want to reach a certain goal. Once they reach that goal, they quit. I wanted to reach Master level, once I reached it I quit. Then Grand Master was introduced, and I was only matched against 1 Grand Master back when I was cheesing. He slapped me around hard 
Unless 1.5 million people had the goal of reaching goal/platinum level, then "league progression - achieving your goal" doesn't explain why 1.5 million people suddenly stopped playing from one season to the next. Because only top 20 percent is in Diamond or above.
My Theory:
First of all, I'm sorry for having been so longwinded... I've wasted enough of your time, so I'll make this very short.
The numbers/data collecting is either bugged or has always been bugged. There is simply no solid/reasonable explanation of how a gaming population can decrease over 90 percent from one season to the other. Either SC2 has always had only around 300k-400k players, which would deem the statistics from season 1, 2, 3, 4 wrong or the statistics from season 5 is either based on another source or simply, wrong/flawed.
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On February 19 2012 19:32 dehdar wrote:
So in other words, stopping all ins is easy. You only need to know how. Once you know how, it's a matter of early scouting or losing to cheese. So no, I don't believe 1.5 million people quit because they kept losing to all-ins... it's the easiest thing to counter. And I don't think 1.5 million people cheesed and chose to stop either, due to being countered...
Only hacks I've encountered are the drop hack, and only twice, so I can't really dabble in that. But the all ins thing is kinda off balance. It's not stopping them (at least imo), it's a matter of 8/10 games being some sort of all in/'cheese' (from my experience and a few friend's as well), and dealing with the same stuff over and over again is simply not fun. Even if you win, even if it's easy to stop, it doesn't make it fun. Just my 2 cents, though, take of it what you will.
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On February 19 2012 19:40 People Is Tasty wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 19:32 dehdar wrote:
So in other words, stopping all ins is easy. You only need to know how. Once you know how, it's a matter of early scouting or losing to cheese. So no, I don't believe 1.5 million people quit because they kept losing to all-ins... it's the easiest thing to counter. And I don't think 1.5 million people cheesed and chose to stop either, due to being countered... Only hacks I've encountered are the drop hack, and only twice, so I can't really dabble in that. But the all ins thing is kinda off balance. It's not stopping them (at least imo), it's a matter of 8/10 games being some sort of all in/'cheese' (from my experience and a few friend's as well), and dealing with the same stuff over and over again is simply not fun. Even if you win, even if it's easy to stop, it doesn't make it fun. Just my 2 cents, though, take of it what you will.
I've been gone from the game since august (started playing again yesterday night, only had 2 customs so far), so I had no idea it was that bad. I understand your frustration though.
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Losing 9 games in a row one day and 5 in a row the second doesn't feel too good.
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On February 19 2012 19:32 dehdar wrote:
Maphack:
As a developer, who has made private hacks (never distributed) to both Aion, Modern Warfare 2 and Starcraft 2 I can tell you this. Making hacks is fun. It can sometimes be a lot more fun than playing games. Using hacks though will kill every enthusiasm, adrenaline rush and excitment of a game. Once you get to the stage where you're not facing any competition, then you get bored and move on.
I won't lie. In Aion I made a very advanced bot, which I used for around a month. I realised I was paying for a game that my bot was playing, not myself, so I quit.
In Modern Warfare 2 I had a blast. However every now and then my killstreaks would end due to people using aimbot/walhack. I got frustrated and started googling for cheats. I quickly realised that the only reliable cheats were being sold... So I thought to myself, hey I'm a developer, I should be able to make my own. I was lucky enough to find an open source Modern Warfare 2 hack that I started contributing to and modifying for my own use.
The hack has no dependencies to the Modern Warfare 2 process. I didn't inject dlls, I didn't modify existing assemblies. All I did was read offsets from the current Modern Warfare 2 process to find player locations, then rendered the players as boxes on top of my Modern Warfare 2 game... In other words my hack was 100 percent undetectable and I used it obviously hoping I'd get banned, because I couldn't believe how blind Eye Infinity was to all the hacks that were used. After playing around 40-50 games in a row where I'd end each game with a 25 killstreak followed by a nuke, I got fed up and quit.
In Starcraft 2 I never used any hacks. As a developer what thrives me, is creativity, enhancing my skills and testing what I'm capable of. So when I first heard of people complaining about maphacks my first thought was, no way... My second thought was, I need to try that. It took me less than 2 hours (15-20) lines of code to develop a program that would disable FoW.
I had a dilemma though. I knew cheating would kill the game for me. I was also well aware that unlike any other game, people invest time and money, fully dedicate themselves to make a living in SC2, so I felt like I would damage their livelihood by cheating, so I didn't. To test if I could disable FoG war in a ladder match, I joined 3 1vs1 matches, disabled FoW and lost all 3 games on purpose. After that I deleted the source code and the compiled assemblies, but strange enough I didn't get any satisfaction or sense of accomplishment as I did with my bot in Aion or aim/wallhack in MW2... quite the contrary I got this creepy feeling thinking to myself... how many people has actually earned their Grand Master title? I also felt angry thinking, how many cheaters I might have engaged when I was trying to make it to Grand Master?
Interesting... that's actually one of the few things I've never had complaints about. I really rarely get any indication that my opponents are mhing and I don't think its widespread at all. I remember it plagued war3 all the way from release to the middle of tft and made it really hard to take the game seriously as a competitive endeavour. I bet the vast majority of GMs do not hack.
+ I play protoss and even if you see my 2 base push coming I just a move and win and there's nothing you can do about it (according to my zerg opponents anyway).
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Because all my matches are either mass void ray or mass banshee... which gets old xD
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EPT
