|
Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 08:46 Shantastic wrote:
Ravens and Ghosts are still really good vs late game zerg. You're looking at it wrong.
Each race has two casters.
Zerg has the Overseer, which is useless in engagements (as it should be) and good for scouting/just being annoying, and the Infestor, which is this really good, cost-effective unit with two incredibly powerful, versatile abilities that, for a large price, increase the cost-efficiency of your army composition.
Protoss has Templar, which are really great vs any composition involving bio, and solidly increase Protoss deathball efficiency. Protoss also has Sentries, which are great against heavy bio compositions, as well as vs heavy roach/ling compositions, the likes of which you see early-to-midgame. However, more than 2-3 sentries just aren't that good in late game, simply because of the range of EMP making FFs useless and the fact that in the late game, Zerg tends towards higher ranged, higher punch units, leaving Roaches as the "throwaway" late-game unit that costs only 25 gas and is designed to soak up the hurt, so to speak.
Terran has both Ravens and Ghosts. Ravens have PDD, which is always effective vs late-game protoss, and Hunter Seeker Missile, which places constraints on the way Zerg controls and makes units, heavily punishing any kind of clumping. The dynamic of casters should work such that Ghosts and Ravens are individually less effective than Infestors and Templar late-game, but, since they cost more supply combined, are more effective than either of them when you combine them together, which I think is true, simply due to the lack of redundancy between the ways Ghosts and Ravens contribute. Ravens contribute towards forcing Zerg to look at mobility and positioning, while Ghosts are all-around good vs any lategame composition, with EMP, nuke (which is mostly great for map control, but also nifty for engagements if you're MouzThorzain =D), and snipes.
hi i'm a high templar, i can deal 80 damage over 4 seconds to an entire area for 75 energy.
hi i'm an infestor, i can deal 30-40 damage and trap units in place for 4 seconds over an entire area for 75 energy
hi i'm a ghost, i'm more expensive than infestor and high templar, i can deal 75 damage over 1 second to a single biological unit for 75 energy. but at least in TvP i am actually useful!
:F
obviously blizzard want to see what effect this change has on high level TvZ. personally i think it will be massive overkill and also make terran more linear and dull to play... but lets wait and see.
|
On February 11 2012 08:50 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:06 Bagi wrote:
The reason I dislike this snipe change is because its probably the first time they are REMOVING the role an unit has in the army. To this date most balance changes have been small so that a certain unit would be a little more viable or a little weaker in its designated rule. With this change Blizzard is basically saying "you can only use the ghost against casters", which in my opinion is way too radical of a change and wrecks the entire metagame of this match-up.
I also have a problem with making snipe an anti-caster ability. The ghost already has EMP, that's about as anti-caster as you can get. Its completely redundant.
I think there are some fixed they could do to snipe that would be much more reasonable. Simply making the ability NOT ignore armor would be a decent nerf and help units like the ultralisk. Are there even zergs out there that are really struggling lategame ZvT? I'll be honest, I have never ever seen a terran lose in TvZ if there are 30 ghosts on the map in any ladder game or tournament game. snipe not ignore armor? oh my, so it deals, what? 39 damage instead of 45? an ultra dies of 13 snipes instead of 12? yay. big change.
It could be a flat damage nerf to 40 and then make armor apply to it as well. I didn't really even think of how big of a nerf the armor thing would be, it was just an example of a balance change that would make more sense from a design point of view.
Alternatively if you really wanna nerf ghosts to the ground, some tweaks to the raven might be good compensation, something to keep terrans afloat in the lategame TvZ. Just don't change PDD as it might overpower 1-1-1 again.
|
On February 11 2012 08:52 NEXUS6 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:47 Ewic wrote:
I like this patch EXCEPT for the fact that Snipe never needed nerfing, and that TvP lategame is still unaddressed.
Lategame TvZ is insanely hard to pull off already. EMP radius only ever hits 3 Infestors MAX, and you're lucky if you can even get to them if they fungal you. Before this patch, Terrans could deal with Broodlords in 1 of 2 ways: Ghosts or Vikings. Also, to deal with Ultralisks, you could go Ghost or Marauder. With this patch, Ghosts are almost TWICE as bad against these units... So if you somehow manage to make 30+ Vikings to deal with the mass BL (even though mass Viking doesn't actually counter BL + Infestor + Corruptor), congratulations, you will now die to a remax of 8+ Ultralisks.
No. Snipe absolutely had to be addressed. Ghosts dominated way to hard in the TvZ late game.
No they didn't. 6 casts (150 energy) and 11 casts (275 energy) is hardly 'domination'. And if you a move your broodlords/ultras without support, then you deserve to get dominated.
The change makes no sense at all. Since when was TvZ imbalanced at all? There are countless examples of late game TvZ with alot of ghosts that the Z handled perfectly fine. Leenock vs ForGG Ro32 G1?
|
On February 11 2012 08:54 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:41 enigamI wrote:
Terran here, you can guess what I"m going to say... Most of the changes sound resonable, particularly nerfing mules on gold bases, and the buff to pheonix range... But the ghost snipe debuff hurts a lot. I've always found TvP to be a very frustrating matchup in the lategame, due to how reliant we are on scouting and perfecting our army composition based upon the protoss composition... I feel TvZ could become even worse in this sense. At least vs protoss, it is relatively easy to keep track of the protoss army composition. With Zerg's macro/larva mechanics, it's more difficult to rapidly scout BL/Ultra comp switches... I wish they would have at least nerfed the ghosts a bit more gently... Well, as far as TvP goes, ghosts have been buffed  They now 3-shot zealots, and snipe does additional hull-damage to Templar. Not too substantial, but it's not like Ghosts are super-weak in TvP, but every little bit helps, no? If it's more difficult to scout a tech switch, the solution is to facilitate scouting the tech switch (that includes scouting through engagement), not to simply make the tech switch absolutely useless, which is what ghosts do right now. Ghosts should be good enough that you lose the engagement without losing the game, if scouting the tech switch is too hard, but they absolutely should not be good enough to win the engagement no matter what Zerg does, which is what Ghosts are right now, which I think Blizz has done a good job of addressing.
3-shot zealots!? Dude they now 7 shot zealots, check your facts....
I can understand why Blizzard don't want ghosts to counter all Zerg T3 units. But why can templars then counter all Terran T3 units with Feedback? (BC's and Thors)
|
Not sure how Terran is supposed to deal with BL/Infestor now. Mass Viking/Thor? Lol...
|
On February 11 2012 08:41 enigamI wrote:
Terran here, you can guess what I"m going to say... Most of the changes sound resonable, particularly nerfing mules on gold bases, and the buff to pheonix range... But the ghost snipe debuff hurts a lot. I've always found TvP to be a very frustrating matchup in the lategame, due to how reliant we are on scouting and perfecting our army composition based upon the protoss composition... I feel TvZ could become even worse in this sense. At least vs protoss, it is relatively easy to keep track of the protoss army composition. With Zerg's macro/larva mechanics, it's more difficult to rapidly scout BL/Ultra comp switches... I wish they would have at least nerfed the ghosts a bit more gently...
You said snipe debuff hurts alot and u say TvP was ur main prob. How much snipe do you really use against toss?
do u really snipe every single Zealots? if you are talking about sniping HTs it just got +5 dmg buff.
|
On February 11 2012 08:51 SnipedSoul wrote:
I just realized, why make it so snipe is only good against casters when ghosts already have emp? Why does ghost need 2 anti-caster abilities? Snipe should just be removed and replaced with something else.
Rocket launcher!!! or that skill in the single-player that does super damage or the mind control one lol seriously ghosts are now the infitrate your base emp snipe your queens and nuke your base units now, no combat uses anymore
|
On February 11 2012 08:47 Goku___ wrote:
I think maybe making snipe not affect ultras would be good but this is taking it too far
if snipe didn't affect ultras, then ultras could have a spot in TvZ
I would love that tooltip:
frenzied:
Immune to snare, stun, slow, mindcontrol, snipe, destroys forcefields, cannot be lifted by graviton beam, storm tickles, HSM stings, unaffected by feedbacked, EMP and PDD.
alternative:
frenzied:
immune to all spells except transfuse, yamato cannon, vortex and 255mm cannon, though the cannon doesn't stun.
|
Vatican City State733 Posts
On February 11 2012 08:54 miken wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:40 shizna wrote:On February 11 2012 08:34 c0ldfusion wrote:
Oh man, the comments on the BNET forum over this are hilarious.... So many tears everywhere...
I wonder why the number of terran players from master through gold dropped so much since patch 1.3. Just because of the nerfs? Terrans are still doing OK in GM. imo that's because GM terran's aren't dumb I.E. they don't attempt macro games versus zerg and protoss that are even close to them skill-wise. it makes sense.... why take it to lategame when you're far more likely to win with a 1 or 2 base timing attack? Terran's have a 35% win rate against late game zerg? Better nerf Snipe. The recent TvZ metagame has really been lacking in SCV all-ins, thank god we can go back to the Golden days of all those one and two base timings like in GSL open seasons 1-3.....I loved watching those games; Riveting. Win Rates by Race & Length of Game from MLG Providence: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309042http://i.imgur.com/8Wfcc.png
People need to stop quoting that thread. Those statistics have many different variables influencing them and could have many possible explanations. As one example of many possiblities, Terrans could be focusing on two base timings that will win in 10-15 minutes but leave their economy gimped late game. It could very well be more about the fact that you can't kill a Terran who is behind until later game. Simply put, there are too many variables in a game of starcraft for those statistics to have any meaning,
|
United States13143 Posts
On February 11 2012 09:01 phame21 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:41 enigamI wrote:
Terran here, you can guess what I"m going to say... Most of the changes sound resonable, particularly nerfing mules on gold bases, and the buff to pheonix range... But the ghost snipe debuff hurts a lot. I've always found TvP to be a very frustrating matchup in the lategame, due to how reliant we are on scouting and perfecting our army composition based upon the protoss composition... I feel TvZ could become even worse in this sense. At least vs protoss, it is relatively easy to keep track of the protoss army composition. With Zerg's macro/larva mechanics, it's more difficult to rapidly scout BL/Ultra comp switches... I wish they would have at least nerfed the ghosts a bit more gently... You said snipe debuff hurts alot and u say TvP was ur main prob. How much snipe do you really use against toss? do u really snipe every single Zealots? if you are talking about sniping HTs it just got +5 dmg buff.
Against zealot/archon? Yes, actually. The best way to fight zealot/archon imo was to get an absolute ton of ghosts.
|
On February 11 2012 08:58 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:46 Shantastic wrote:
Ravens and Ghosts are still really good vs late game zerg. You're looking at it wrong.
Each race has two casters.
Zerg has the Overseer, which is useless in engagements (as it should be) and good for scouting/just being annoying, and the Infestor, which is this really good, cost-effective unit with two incredibly powerful, versatile abilities that, for a large price, increase the cost-efficiency of your army composition.
Protoss has Templar, which are really great vs any composition involving bio, and solidly increase Protoss deathball efficiency. Protoss also has Sentries, which are great against heavy bio compositions, as well as vs heavy roach/ling compositions, the likes of which you see early-to-midgame. However, more than 2-3 sentries just aren't that good in late game, simply because of the range of EMP making FFs useless and the fact that in the late game, Zerg tends towards higher ranged, higher punch units, leaving Roaches as the "throwaway" late-game unit that costs only 25 gas and is designed to soak up the hurt, so to speak.
Terran has both Ravens and Ghosts. Ravens have PDD, which is always effective vs late-game protoss, and Hunter Seeker Missile, which places constraints on the way Zerg controls and makes units, heavily punishing any kind of clumping. The dynamic of casters should work such that Ghosts and Ravens are individually less effective than Infestors and Templar late-game, but, since they cost more supply combined, are more effective than either of them when you combine them together, which I think is true, simply due to the lack of redundancy between the ways Ghosts and Ravens contribute. Ravens contribute towards forcing Zerg to look at mobility and positioning, while Ghosts are all-around good vs any lategame composition, with EMP, nuke (which is mostly great for map control, but also nifty for engagements if you're MouzThorzain =D), and snipes. hi i'm a high templar, i can deal 80 damage over 4 seconds to an entire area for 75 energy. hi i'm an infestor, i can deal 30-40 damage and trap units in place over an entire area for 75 energy hi i'm a ghost, i'm more expensive than infestor and high templar, i can deal 75 damage over 1 second to a single biological unit for 75 energy. but at least in TvP i am actually useful! :F
Hiiiiiii, I'm a ghost used correctly, I can go invisible for length amounts of time and snipe overseers before they can see me, then proceed to do incredible damage to the rest of the zerg army by firing nuclear missiles.
:F
|
For once, I don't like any of the patch changes.
|
On February 11 2012 09:01 phame21 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:41 enigamI wrote:
Terran here, you can guess what I"m going to say... Most of the changes sound resonable, particularly nerfing mules on gold bases, and the buff to pheonix range... But the ghost snipe debuff hurts a lot. I've always found TvP to be a very frustrating matchup in the lategame, due to how reliant we are on scouting and perfecting our army composition based upon the protoss composition... I feel TvZ could become even worse in this sense. At least vs protoss, it is relatively easy to keep track of the protoss army composition. With Zerg's macro/larva mechanics, it's more difficult to rapidly scout BL/Ultra comp switches... I wish they would have at least nerfed the ghosts a bit more gently... You said snipe debuff hurts alot and u say TvP was ur main prob. How much snipe do you really use against toss? do u really snipe every single Zealots? if you are talking about sniping HTs it just got +5 dmg buff.
I snipe against zealots all the time, especially the reinforcement waves after I have won a battle. If I have leftover energy, why not utilize it? As my units are probably already low HP, it can make a huge difference in their survival.
The +5 damage buff does absolutely nothing against templar as you needed 2 snipes to kill a templar before and nothing has changed about that.
|
Yay balance. These things have been on my shitlist for the better part of a year now.
..
I'm almost pissy it took so long for them to admit to it and it isn't like the changes are deep revelations that no one suggested before.
But I'm just happy they'll be here. ..
and i'll actually want to play a late game ZvT for a change.
|
On February 11 2012 08:57 MrCash wrote:
I don't think you understand the patch.
Snipe now will 6 shot zealots (nerf). It will only to 50 damage to psionic. Basically HTs and Infestors (also Queens, but meh). 2 shot before, 2 shot now. Only thing it helps tiny vs infestors if they regen.
Also their regular attack will do more damage with upgrades than snipe to anything light.
I misunderstood the meaning of psionic. Accidentally associated it with toss units rather than with casters.
Don't underestimate the effectiveness of sniping Queens. That makes Brood Lords a billion times as vulnerable to sustained amounts of damage, increasing the effectiveness of stim marines, Vikings, AND this nerfed snipe.
The error being made, I feel, is calling snipe an attack that's "supposed" to be better than your regular attack against anything it can hit. So what if snipe does less damage against lings or mutas with ups? You don't need it against mutas or against lings if you're hitting those A and S buttons with any discipline and positioning your midgame comp properly. Snipe is primarily used in the late game vs BL and Ultras, and it was too powerful in that situation. As it is, it will no longer be viable vs Mutas and Zerglings, which to me is simply Blizzard eliminating redundancies.
|
On February 11 2012 08:58 Bommes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:50 Roblin wrote:On February 11 2012 08:06 Bagi wrote:
The reason I dislike this snipe change is because its probably the first time they are REMOVING the role an unit has in the army. To this date most balance changes have been small so that a certain unit would be a little more viable or a little weaker in its designated rule. With this change Blizzard is basically saying "you can only use the ghost against casters", which in my opinion is way too radical of a change and wrecks the entire metagame of this match-up.
I also have a problem with making snipe an anti-caster ability. The ghost already has EMP, that's about as anti-caster as you can get. Its completely redundant.
I think there are some fixed they could do to snipe that would be much more reasonable. Simply making the ability NOT ignore armor would be a decent nerf and help units like the ultralisk. Are there even zergs out there that are really struggling lategame ZvT? lets say 50 larvae of zerglings attacks! (100 zerglings) ghosts have instant attacks (no overkill) ghosts 2-shot zerglings (10+10light damage= 20 damage/shot, 20*2 = 40 > 35) which means 15 zerglings will die every volley. after 7 volleys all zerglings are dead. note, if 7 volleys are launched, we wait for 6 cooldowns. 6 * (cooldown = 1.5) = 9 30 ghosts kill 100 zerglings in literaly 9 ingame seconds. I don't want to argue about how strong ghosts are but I really don't see your point there. 30 Ghosts costs are 6000 minerals and 2000 gas. 100 zerglings costs are 2500 minerals. Ghosts have bonus damage against zerglings. What do you expect? What is your point with this?
His point is to mindlessly whine about how his race is so much weaker than the others.
44% snipe nerf hurts the Terran heart... I won't use ghosts TvZ anymore.
|
Ghosts do more dps than both a stimmed marine and marauder even without snipe right? I'm sure i saw that somewhere. I remember DeMusliM talking about how their basic attack is actually pretty good even without snipe.
|
On February 11 2012 08:58 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:46 Shantastic wrote:
Ravens and Ghosts are still really good vs late game zerg. You're looking at it wrong.
Each race has two casters.
Zerg has the Overseer, which is useless in engagements (as it should be) and good for scouting/just being annoying, and the Infestor, which is this really good, cost-effective unit with two incredibly powerful, versatile abilities that, for a large price, increase the cost-efficiency of your army composition.
Protoss has Templar, which are really great vs any composition involving bio, and solidly increase Protoss deathball efficiency. Protoss also has Sentries, which are great against heavy bio compositions, as well as vs heavy roach/ling compositions, the likes of which you see early-to-midgame. However, more than 2-3 sentries just aren't that good in late game, simply because of the range of EMP making FFs useless and the fact that in the late game, Zerg tends towards higher ranged, higher punch units, leaving Roaches as the "throwaway" late-game unit that costs only 25 gas and is designed to soak up the hurt, so to speak.
Terran has both Ravens and Ghosts. Ravens have PDD, which is always effective vs late-game protoss, and Hunter Seeker Missile, which places constraints on the way Zerg controls and makes units, heavily punishing any kind of clumping. The dynamic of casters should work such that Ghosts and Ravens are individually less effective than Infestors and Templar late-game, but, since they cost more supply combined, are more effective than either of them when you combine them together, which I think is true, simply due to the lack of redundancy between the ways Ghosts and Ravens contribute. Ravens contribute towards forcing Zerg to look at mobility and positioning, while Ghosts are all-around good vs any lategame composition, with EMP, nuke (which is mostly great for map control, but also nifty for engagements if you're MouzThorzain =D), and snipes. hi i'm a high templar, i can deal 80 damage over 4 seconds to an entire area for 75 energy. hi i'm an infestor, i can deal 30-40 damage and trap units in place for 4 seconds over an entire area for 75 energy hi i'm a ghost, i'm more expensive than infestor and high templar, i can deal 75 damage over 1 second to a single biological unit for 75 energy. but at least in TvP i am actually useful! :F
Yes, retarded comparisons are always the way to go in a balance thread. Especially comparing units across tech tiers - do the mothership, broodlord and scv comparison next please!
|
On February 11 2012 09:00 Shiori wrote:
Not sure how Terran is supposed to deal with BL/Infestor now. Mass Viking/Thor? Lol...
seriously next patch im going double-11 rax pressure into FE and fake bio into Mech army with the occasional drops (not sure if i will still have 2 reactored rax with the sole purpose of dropping marines or dropping BFH) into zerg bases.
|
On February 11 2012 09:00 Shiori wrote:
Not sure how Terran is supposed to deal with BL/Infestor now. Mass Viking/Thor? Lol...
I think we'll finally see the Raven-HSM / Viking combination where you fire HSM's on your own vikings and suicide them into the Broodlord / Corruptor ball. That'll fix the HSM range problem. It's gonna be epic!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
