EPTPatch 1.4.3 - Preview Blog - Page 95
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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay. Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. | ||
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
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Boiler Bandsman
United States391 Posts
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Elyvilon
United States13143 Posts
On February 11 2012 08:46 Shantastic wrote: Terran has both Ravens and Ghosts. Ravens have PDD, which is always effective vs late-game protoss, and Hunter Seeker Missile, which places constraints on the way Zerg controls and makes units, heavily punishing any kind of clumping. The dynamic of casters should work such that Ghosts and Ravens are individually less effective than Infestors and Templar late-game, but, since they cost more supply combined, are more effective than either of them when you combine them together, which I think is true, simply due to the lack of redundancy between the ways Ghosts and Ravens contribute. Ravens contribute towards forcing Zerg to look at mobility and positioning, while Ghosts are all-around good vs any lategame composition, with EMP, nuke (which is mostly great for map control, but also nifty for engagements if you're MouzThorzain =D), and snipes. So even ignoring the rest, what are you using PDD against vs late-game protoss? Their 10 stalkers? it doesn't do anything against chargelots, archons, colossi, or templar | ||
Sackings
Canada457 Posts
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NEXUS6
United States413 Posts
On February 11 2012 08:47 Ewic wrote: I like this patch EXCEPT for the fact that Snipe never needed nerfing, and that TvP lategame is still unaddressed. Lategame TvZ is insanely hard to pull off already. EMP radius only ever hits 3 Infestors MAX, and you're lucky if you can even get to them if they fungal you. Before this patch, Terrans could deal with Broodlords in 1 of 2 ways: Ghosts or Vikings. Also, to deal with Ultralisks, you could go Ghost or Marauder. With this patch, Ghosts are almost TWICE as bad against these units... So if you somehow manage to make 30+ Vikings to deal with the mass BL (even though mass Viking doesn't actually counter BL + Infestor + Corruptor), congratulations, you will now die to a remax of 8+ Ultralisks. No. Snipe absolutely had to be addressed. Ghosts dominated way to hard in the TvZ late game. | ||
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
On February 11 2012 08:51 Sackings wrote: so many problems with the infestor / broodlord deathball could be solved by making fungal slow instead of root, even most zerg players would agree it would be a good change. Its ridiculous that you can lose thousands of resources worth of units in seconds because they got caught in a chain fungal. I agree, chain fungal on vikings is the main reason why infestor/BL is so good. A slow would at least let you attempt to get away if you get caught of position for 0.01s. | ||
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TheHova
United Kingdom2612 Posts
On February 11 2012 08:51 Boiler Bandsman wrote: Honest question...do we see more HS missiles vs Brood Lords given their clumping tendencies, or are vikings still the better option? I think you'll see more Terrans try to consciously split their vikings up more. Ravens have to get really close to cast HS no? And are a lot more expensive/difficult to mass. | ||
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Shantastic
United States435 Posts
On February 11 2012 08:41 enigamI wrote: Terran here, you can guess what I"m going to say... Most of the changes sound resonable, particularly nerfing mules on gold bases, and the buff to pheonix range... But the ghost snipe debuff hurts a lot. I've always found TvP to be a very frustrating matchup in the lategame, due to how reliant we are on scouting and perfecting our army composition based upon the protoss composition... I feel TvZ could become even worse in this sense. At least vs protoss, it is relatively easy to keep track of the protoss army composition. With Zerg's macro/larva mechanics, it's more difficult to rapidly scout BL/Ultra comp switches... I wish they would have at least nerfed the ghosts a bit more gently... Well, as far as TvP goes, ghosts have been buffed  They now 3-shot zealots, and snipe does additional hull-damage to Templar. Not too substantial, but it's not like Ghosts are super-weak in TvP, but every little bit helps, no?If it's more difficult to scout a tech switch, the solution is to facilitate scouting the tech switch (that includes scouting through engagement), not to simply make the tech switch absolutely useless, which is what ghosts do right now. Ghosts should be good enough that you lose the engagement without losing the game, if scouting the tech switch is too hard, but they absolutely should not be good enough to win the engagement no matter what Zerg does, which is what Ghosts are right now, which I think Blizz has done a good job of addressing. | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
On February 11 2012 08:51 Boiler Bandsman wrote: Honest question...do we see more HS missiles vs Brood Lords given their clumping tendencies, or are vikings still the better option? Because ravens so slowly and need to get in so close to use HSM they will usually be fungaled and die. The thing with HSM is that you're paying 100 minerals and 200 gas and the research not to do magic damage and come out ahead with efficiency, but when you use a HSM the raven "will" die. You are paying that money everytime to deal 100 damage. HSM is just not nearly effficient or easy enough to use to really use it when fungal is so damn good with such a long range. | ||
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miken
Canada9 Posts
On February 11 2012 08:40 shizna wrote: imo that's because GM terran's aren't dumb I.E. they don't attempt macro games versus zerg and protoss that are even close to them skill-wise. it makes sense.... why take it to lategame when you're far more likely to win with a 1 or 2 base timing attack? Terran's have a 35% win rate against late game zerg? Better nerf Snipe. The recent TvZ metagame has really been lacking in SCV all-ins, thank god we can go back to the Golden days of all those one and two base timings like in GSL open seasons 1-3.....I loved watching those games; Riveting. Win Rates by Race & Length of Game from MLG Providence: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=309042 http://i.imgur.com/8Wfcc.png | ||
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NNTP
Canada47 Posts
On February 11 2012 08:50 Roblin wrote: I'll be honest, I have never ever seen a terran lose in TvZ if there are 30 ghosts on the map in any ladder game or tournament game. snipe not ignore armor? oh my, so it deals, what? 39 damage instead of 45? an ultra dies of 13 snipes instead of 12? yay. big change. I for one am happy about all the changes, it adresses 1 of my 3 annoying issues with SC2, which are: 1. the only unit in the game to have its dps reduced from BW to SC2 is the zergling, this bothers me but I know the zergling doesn't need a buff, but still, it bothers me. 2. there is no zerg counter to ghost. (fixed, zergling and ) 3. there is no zerg counter to archon (broodlord is a soft counter) 2 and 3 can be summed up as: there are units in the game that do bonus damage to ALL ZERG UNITS but dont take bonus damage from any zerg unit themselves. and to everyone claiming "just techswitch to zerglings!", heres some facts: lets ignore for now the existence of tanks, lets say every single one of them died, the only thing you have in your army is 30 ghosts, nothing more. lets say 50 larvae of zerglings attacks! (100 zerglings) ghosts have instant attacks (no overkill) ghosts 2-shot zerglings (10+10light damage= 20 damage/shot, 20*2 = 40 > 35) which means 15 zerglings will die every volley. after 7 volleys all zerglings are dead. note, if 7 volleys are launched, we wait for 6 cooldowns. 6 * (cooldown = 1.5) = 9 30 ghosts kill 100 zerglings in literaly 9 ingame seconds. then the question is: how many ghosts can you kill in 9 seconds? not many assuming proper ghost claking and sniping possible overseers. zerglings may be viable, but not in such small numbers as 100. who lets terrans get 30 ghosts? assuming you have 10 rax with tech labs (which is unthinkable since most rax will have reactor cores that means 3 waves of reinforcing ghosts which means reduced numbers of marines which means once you kill the first 1-2 batch of ghosts there s no backbone to that terran army. i think 10-15 ghosts is more realistic, 30 ghosts the terran probably has more bases than the zerg and outplayed his the whole game with multiprongued attacks | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
On February 11 2012 08:50 Roblin wrote: I'll be honest, I have never ever seen a terran lose in TvZ if there are 30 ghosts on the map in any ladder game or tournament game. snipe not ignore armor? oh my, so it deals, what? 39 damage instead of 45? an ultra dies of 13 snipes instead of 12? yay. big change. I for one am happy about all the changes, it adresses 1 of my 3 annoying issues with SC2, which are: 1. the only unit in the game to have its dps reduced from BW to SC2 is the zergling, this bothers me but I know the zergling doesn't need a buff, but still, it bothers me. 2. there is no zerg counter to ghost. (fixed, zergling and ) 3. there is no zerg counter to archon (broodlord is a soft counter) 2 and 3 can be summed up as: there are units in the game that do bonus damage to ALL ZERG UNITS but dont take bonus damage from any zerg unit themselves. and to everyone claiming "just techswitch to zerglings!", heres some facts: lets ignore for now the existence of tanks, lets say every single one of them died, the only thing you have in your army is 30 ghosts, nothing more. lets say 50 larvae of zerglings attacks! (100 zerglings) ghosts have instant attacks (no overkill) ghosts 2-shot zerglings (10+10light damage= 20 damage/shot, 20*2 = 40 > 35) which means 15 zerglings will die every volley. after 7 volleys all zerglings are dead. note, if 7 volleys are launched, we wait for 6 cooldowns. 6 * (cooldown = 1.5) = 9 30 ghosts kill 100 zerglings in literaly 9 ingame seconds. then the question is: how many ghosts can you kill in 9 seconds? not many assuming proper ghost claking and sniping possible overseers. zerglings may be viable, but not in such small numbers as 100. And a bc wins a zergling! 30 ghosts is 6000/3000. 100 zerglings is 2500/0. Morph those 100 zlings into blings(5000/2500) and you've got yourself a ton of dead ghosts and like 50 blings leftover | ||
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kKagari
Australia84 Posts
 i thought blizzard was all about not creating redundancy by having roles that do the same thing. why not just apply the same nerf but for non massive units instead? and queens really ought to be massive >___> creates a way more strategic offensive, defensive use for the queens.if the recent games between genius and nestea are anything to look for, the phoenix buff is unnecessary. and once they get that buff, tempests will become unnecessary... a lot of redundancy going around this patch imo | ||
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Azide
Canada566 Posts
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
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Shantastic
United States435 Posts
On February 11 2012 08:51 Elyvilon wrote: So even ignoring the rest, what are you using PDD against vs late-game protoss? Their 10 stalkers? it doesn't do anything against chargelots, archons, colossi, or templar That's a great point, actually. PDDs are great for blink stalker heavy comps, but I guess you don't really see that anymore. I see TvP Ravens when Terrans are smart enough to realize that they get so much more marine production if they can build and protect a single Raven. Suddenly, that's so much energy you don't have to spend scanning for DTs or baneling bombs, depending on your matchup. | ||
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MrCash
United States1504 Posts
On February 11 2012 08:54 Shantastic wrote: Well, as far as TvP goes, ghosts have been buffed They now 3-shot zealots, and snipe does additional hull-damage to Templar. Not too substantial, but it's not like Ghosts are super-weak in TvP, but every little bit helps, no?If it's more difficult to scout a tech switch, the solution is to facilitate scouting the tech switch (that includes scouting through engagement), not to simply make the tech switch absolutely useless, which is what ghosts do right now. Ghosts should be good enough that you lose the engagement without losing the game, if scouting the tech switch is too hard, but they absolutely should not be good enough to win the engagement no matter what Zerg does, which is what Ghosts are right now, which I think Blizz has done a good job of addressing. I don't think you understand the patch. Snipe now will 6 shot zealots (nerf). It will only to 50 damage to psionic. Basically HTs and Infestors (also Queens, but meh). 2 shot before, 2 shot now. Only thing it helps tiny vs infestors if they regen. Also their regular attack will do more damage with upgrades than snipe to anything light. | ||
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Sackings
Canada457 Posts
On February 11 2012 08:54 Shantastic wrote: Well, as far as TvP goes, ghosts have been buffed They now 3-shot zealots, and snipe does additional hull-damage to Templar. Not too substantial, but it's not like Ghosts are super-weak in TvP, but every little bit helps, no?If it's more difficult to scout a tech switch, the solution is to facilitate scouting the tech switch (that includes scouting through engagement), not to simply make the tech switch absolutely useless, which is what ghosts do right now. Ghosts should be good enough that you lose the engagement without losing the game, if scouting the tech switch is too hard, but they absolutely should not be good enough to win the engagement no matter what Zerg does, which is what Ghosts are right now, which I think Blizz has done a good job of addressing. get your facts straight, zealots are not psionic units... | ||
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Boiler Bandsman
United States391 Posts
On February 11 2012 08:54 Shantastic wrote: Well, as far as TvP goes, ghosts have been buffed They now 3-shot zealots, and snipe does additional hull-damage to Templar. Not too substantial, but it's not like Ghosts are super-weak in TvP, but every little bit helps, no?Zealots are not psionic, which I think is what you're assuming. It takes 6 shots now assuming no other damage or shield regen. Edit: sniped.... | ||
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Bommes
Germany1226 Posts
On February 11 2012 08:50 Roblin wrote: lets say 50 larvae of zerglings attacks! (100 zerglings) ghosts have instant attacks (no overkill) ghosts 2-shot zerglings (10+10light damage= 20 damage/shot, 20*2 = 40 > 35) which means 15 zerglings will die every volley. after 7 volleys all zerglings are dead. note, if 7 volleys are launched, we wait for 6 cooldowns. 6 * (cooldown = 1.5) = 9 30 ghosts kill 100 zerglings in literaly 9 ingame seconds. I don't want to argue about how strong ghosts are but I really don't see your point there. 30 Ghosts costs are 6000 minerals and 2000 gas. 100 zerglings costs are 2500 minerals. Ghosts have bonus damage against zerglings. What do you expect? What is your point with this? | ||
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