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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 08:29 Bommes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 07:42 OrangeSoda wrote:
ghosts with + 3 damage do more damage shooting now compared to actually sniping i think. Against Light, yeah... thats just stupid They should just increase energy cost on snipe, maybe something around 35-40. Once they run out of energy they suck against Broodlords and Ultralisks and if its not a oneshot snipe the zerg gets chances to transfuse etc. But I think the best option would be to just reduce the damage of snipe by armor. Maybe even 2 damage per armor so it gets pretty bad against late game ultralisks and is still very good against Broodlords, which would be the ideal compromise imo.
thats true! a good zerg will have creep with him and 4-5 queens with his T3 units and constant transfusing ultras and blords anyway so now what? snipe and emp the transfusing queens and support festors as they are psionic then have no energy and try to have a good trade with those ground and aerial beastly monsters?
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![[image loading]](http://g.images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/14414982.jpg)
/edit lol fixed ;]
User was temp banned for this post.
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Terran here, you can guess what I"m going to say... Most of the changes sound resonable, particularly nerfing mules on gold bases, and the buff to pheonix range... But the ghost snipe debuff hurts a lot. I've always found TvP to be a very frustrating matchup in the lategame, due to how reliant we are on scouting and perfecting our army composition based upon the protoss composition... I feel TvZ could become even worse in this sense. At least vs protoss, it is relatively easy to keep track of the protoss army composition. With Zerg's macro/larva mechanics, it's more difficult to rapidly scout BL/Ultra comp switches... I wish they would have at least nerfed the ghosts a bit more gently...
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On February 11 2012 08:41 jupiter6 wrote:![[image loading]](http://d.images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/14414835.jpg)
Nefs?
Picard.jpg
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On February 11 2012 08:34 SnipedSoul wrote:
Blizzard gave terran the most diverse and cool abilities, but once they start to get used they are taken away. Stop trying to make terran as boring and bland as protoss and zerg!
Yeah, would rather see Zerg and Protoss get more interesting. However, none of these changes are final, yet, and Blizzard has made adjustments to patch notes many, many times before. Snipe change ain't permanent till it goes live, folks.
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On February 11 2012 08:41 enigamI wrote:
Terran here, you can guess what I"m going to say... Most of the changes sound resonable, particularly nerfing mules on gold bases, and the buff to pheonix range... But the ghost snipe debuff hurts a lot. I've always found TvP to be a very frustrating matchup in the lategame, due to how reliant we are on scouting and perfecting our army composition based upon the protoss composition... I feel TvZ could become even worse in this sense. At least vs protoss, it is relatively easy to keep track of the protoss army composition. With Zerg's macro/larva mechanics, it's more difficult to rapidly scout BL/Ultra comp switches... I wish they would have at least nerfed the ghosts a bit more gently...
LOL allow Scans to detect what the larvas are morphing into!!! TROLOLOLOL
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On February 11 2012 08:42 Boiler Bandsman wrote:Nefs? Picard.jpg
LOL. Yeah, what is Nefs?
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On February 11 2012 08:41 enigamI wrote:
Terran here, you can guess what I"m going to say... Most of the changes sound resonable, particularly nerfing mules on gold bases, and the buff to pheonix range... But the ghost snipe debuff hurts a lot. I've always found TvP to be a very frustrating matchup in the lategame, due to how reliant we are on scouting and perfecting our army composition based upon the protoss composition... I feel TvZ could become even worse in this sense. At least vs protoss, it is relatively easy to keep track of the protoss army composition. With Zerg's macro/larva mechanics, it's more difficult to rapidly scout BL/Ultra comp switches... I wish they would have at least nerfed the ghosts a bit more gently...
Couldn't have said it better myself.
This is going to hurt A LOT. 
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On February 11 2012 08:43 NNTP wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:41 enigamI wrote:
Terran here, you can guess what I"m going to say... Most of the changes sound resonable, particularly nerfing mules on gold bases, and the buff to pheonix range... But the ghost snipe debuff hurts a lot. I've always found TvP to be a very frustrating matchup in the lategame, due to how reliant we are on scouting and perfecting our army composition based upon the protoss composition... I feel TvZ could become even worse in this sense. At least vs protoss, it is relatively easy to keep track of the protoss army composition. With Zerg's macro/larva mechanics, it's more difficult to rapidly scout BL/Ultra comp switches... I wish they would have at least nerfed the ghosts a bit more gently... LOL allow Scans to detect what the larvas are morphing into!!! TROLOLOLOL
That is actually not a terrible idea, but it would still give info too late, I think.
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On February 11 2012 08:43 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:34 SnipedSoul wrote:
Blizzard gave terran the most diverse and cool abilities, but once they start to get used they are taken away. Stop trying to make terran as boring and bland as protoss and zerg! Yeah, would rather see Zerg and Protoss get more interesting.
Such as give the phoenix another ability to fight against mutas rather than a snorefest of a +range. A lot more interesting to give the toss a choice of how to use the energy on his phoenix(even if this choice would only really be for PvZ against mutas)..
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On February 11 2012 08:43 NNTP wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:41 enigamI wrote:
Terran here, you can guess what I"m going to say... Most of the changes sound resonable, particularly nerfing mules on gold bases, and the buff to pheonix range... But the ghost snipe debuff hurts a lot. I've always found TvP to be a very frustrating matchup in the lategame, due to how reliant we are on scouting and perfecting our army composition based upon the protoss composition... I feel TvZ could become even worse in this sense. At least vs protoss, it is relatively easy to keep track of the protoss army composition. With Zerg's macro/larva mechanics, it's more difficult to rapidly scout BL/Ultra comp switches... I wish they would have at least nerfed the ghosts a bit more gently... LOL allow Scans to detect what the larvas are morphing into!!! TROLOLOLOL
Scans should x-ray kill the foetuses before they even hatch!
I mean getting scanned CANT be healthy for poor little evolving zergs.
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Ravens and Ghosts are still really good vs late game zerg. You're looking at it wrong.
Each race has two casters.
Zerg has the Overseer, which is useless in engagements (as it should be) and good for scouting/just being annoying, and the Infestor, which is this really good, cost-effective unit with two incredibly powerful, versatile abilities that, for a large price, increase the cost-efficiency of your army composition.
Protoss has Templar, which are really great vs any composition involving bio, and solidly increase Protoss deathball efficiency. Protoss also has Sentries, which are great against heavy bio compositions, as well as vs heavy roach/ling compositions, the likes of which you see early-to-midgame. However, more than 2-3 sentries just aren't that good in late game, simply because of the range of EMP making FFs useless and the fact that in the late game, Zerg tends towards higher ranged, higher punch units, leaving Roaches as the "throwaway" late-game unit that costs only 25 gas and is designed to soak up the hurt, so to speak.
Terran has both Ravens and Ghosts. Ravens have PDD, which is always effective vs late-game protoss, and Hunter Seeker Missile, which places constraints on the way Zerg controls and makes units, heavily punishing any kind of clumping. The dynamic of casters should work such that Ghosts and Ravens are individually less effective than Infestors and Templar late-game, but, since they cost more supply combined, are more effective than either of them when you combine them together, which I think is true, simply due to the lack of redundancy between the ways Ghosts and Ravens contribute. Ravens contribute towards forcing Zerg to look at mobility and positioning, while Ghosts are all-around good vs any lategame composition, with EMP, nuke (which is mostly great for map control, but also nifty for engagements if you're MouzThorzain =D), and snipes.
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On February 11 2012 08:33 Rockztar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 02:08 Shockk wrote:
But the Snipe change is ... debatable, at best. Way to force Terrans into Vikings / Marauders and make them more susceptible to lategame Z tech switches. Couldn't have said it better myself. I think this change is atrocious. The point of spellcasters is the utility they give the army in regards not just to killing off other spell casters, but also the lower susceptibility to tech switches. How the fuck am I gonna fire 19 Snipes on each Ultralisk, while also marine splitting and what not else against an Ultralisk/zergling/ling army, while all the Zerg has to do is pretty much A-move and use Fungals lol. Might as well not get ghosts at all now, and just try sniping infestors with stimmed marauders instead, since I don't have the 500 APM it's gonna require to use up all snipes. Not like EMP is gonna do much. The Zerg can just switch to broodlords then. Well guess us Terrans gotta learn to push right after killing off an Ultra army. I just think this makes us way too susceptible to tech switches. They wouldn't happen to be considering giving the BCs or carriers a much needed tweak? Seriously considering race-switching by now.
I think a few ghosts will still be SLIGHTLY useful, purely for toning down infestors because now they don't do anything else. But it's such a huge investment that I don't even know if it's worth it, ravens are probably a better option with HSM, and that's a pretty bad sign.
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I think maybe making snipe not affect ultras would be good but this is taking it too far
if snipe didn't affect ultras, then ultras could have a spot in TvZ
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I like this patch EXCEPT for the fact that Snipe never needed nerfing, and that TvP lategame is still unaddressed.
Lategame TvZ is insanely hard to pull off already. EMP radius only ever hits 3 Infestors MAX, and you're lucky if you can even get to them if they fungal you. Before this patch, Terrans could deal with Broodlords in 1 of 2 ways: Ghosts or Vikings. Also, to deal with Ultralisks, you could go Ghost or Marauder. With this patch, Ghosts are almost TWICE as bad against these units... So if you somehow manage to make 30+ Vikings to deal with the mass BL (even though mass Viking doesn't actually counter BL + Infestor + Corruptor), congratulations, you will now die to a remax of 8+ Ultralisks.
No.
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I have a good feeling about the phoenix change.... cant wait to try it!!! :D
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First time ever that I feel like Blizzard got it right with all the changes.
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Wow, probably the first time Blizzard has actually addressed problems. Maybe HotS won't be a failure after all.
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On February 11 2012 08:46 Bommes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:43 NNTP wrote:On February 11 2012 08:41 enigamI wrote:
Terran here, you can guess what I"m going to say... Most of the changes sound resonable, particularly nerfing mules on gold bases, and the buff to pheonix range... But the ghost snipe debuff hurts a lot. I've always found TvP to be a very frustrating matchup in the lategame, due to how reliant we are on scouting and perfecting our army composition based upon the protoss composition... I feel TvZ could become even worse in this sense. At least vs protoss, it is relatively easy to keep track of the protoss army composition. With Zerg's macro/larva mechanics, it's more difficult to rapidly scout BL/Ultra comp switches... I wish they would have at least nerfed the ghosts a bit more gently... LOL allow Scans to detect what the larvas are morphing into!!! TROLOLOLOL Scans should x-ray kill the foetuses before they even hatch! I mean getting scanned CANT be healthy for poor little evolving zergs.
either that or mutate them even further -_-'
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On February 11 2012 08:06 Bagi wrote:
The reason I dislike this snipe change is because its probably the first time they are REMOVING the role an unit has in the army. To this date most balance changes have been small so that a certain unit would be a little more viable or a little weaker in its designated rule. With this change Blizzard is basically saying "you can only use the ghost against casters", which in my opinion is way too radical of a change and wrecks the entire metagame of this match-up.
I also have a problem with making snipe an anti-caster ability. The ghost already has EMP, that's about as anti-caster as you can get. Its completely redundant.
I think there are some fixed they could do to snipe that would be much more reasonable. Simply making the ability NOT ignore armor would be a decent nerf and help units like the ultralisk. Are there even zergs out there that are really struggling lategame ZvT?
I'll be honest, I have never ever seen a terran lose in TvZ if there are 30 ghosts on the map in any ladder game or tournament game.
snipe not ignore armor? oh my, so it deals, what? 39 damage instead of 45? an ultra dies of 13 snipes instead of 12? yay. big change.
I for one am happy about all the changes, it adresses 1 of my 3 annoying issues with SC2, which are:
1. the only unit in the game to have its dps reduced from BW to SC2 is the zergling, this bothers me but I know the zergling doesn't need a buff, but still, it bothers me.
2. there is no zerg counter to ghost. (fixed, zergling and )
3. there is no zerg counter to archon (broodlord is a soft counter)
2 and 3 can be summed up as: there are units in the game that do bonus damage to ALL ZERG UNITS but dont take bonus damage from any zerg unit themselves.
and to everyone claiming "just techswitch to zerglings!", heres some facts:
lets ignore for now the existence of tanks, lets say every single one of them died, the only thing you have in your army is 30 ghosts, nothing more.
lets say 50 larvae of zerglings attacks! (100 zerglings)
ghosts have instant attacks (no overkill)
ghosts 2-shot zerglings (10+10light damage= 20 damage/shot, 20*2 = 40 > 35)
which means 15 zerglings will die every volley.
after 7 volleys all zerglings are dead.
note, if 7 volleys are launched, we wait for 6 cooldowns.
6 * (cooldown = 1.5) = 9
30 ghosts kill 100 zerglings in literaly 9 ingame seconds.
then the question is: how many ghosts can you kill in 9 seconds?
not many assuming proper ghost claking and sniping possible overseers.
zerglings may be viable, but not in such small numbers as 100.
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EPT
