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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 08:11 Bagi wrote:
Also people need to remember that none of the changes are final. The neural parasite change (doesn't work on massive) was equally retarded and got toned down.
I wouldn't be surprised if the same happened with snipe.
Tbh just that Blizzard is thinking snipe is bad is a huge red flag to me. Just don't make maps like Shakuras where terran can get up to double bases of the zerg. I really don't agree there is an issue with snipe, it's the issue of some maps where terran can very easily just camp at one spot and wait for the zerg to try to break the terran while the zerg is on fewer bases. Mass ghost is very punishable on most maps(antiga is another map that comes to mind and to lesser extend metal esp after mule nerf).
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On February 11 2012 08:17 OwNaGeForce wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:13 MrTng wrote:On February 11 2012 08:07 NNTP wrote:
Ghost was good because it offers a very good unit vs T3 Zerg. Reason for which is that Zerg can force mass viking with broodlords then remax with ultras and since he would have 3/3 melee armour for zerglings and banelings anyway the ultras will have 3/4 or 3/5 if carapace was researched. then the vikings are pointless then.
If you survive the blords you can recycle your ghosts on ultras which makes the ghosts cost effective (they cost a lot in time and resources).
Now terrans have to mix it up and figure out when that remax will happen and wether it is a remax under flyer or armored ground form.
Perhaps there will be more mech play late game? I don't know!! i am okay with reducing damage vs armored units like ultras which realistically makes sense. A sniper round is not supposed to be a RPG blast lol but a sniper round that cant 1 shot kill someone is pointless. Before ghosts could 1 shot kill marines without combat shields and stimmed marines. Now it is rendered pointless to snipe T1 units. You could also drop stimmed marines and 1-2 ghosts to snipe scv and drones now adding that ghost in is kind of pointless... or maybe still drop it in to emp the orbital command then cloak/hide pick up marines and nuke when army redeploys somewhere else?? "Figure out when remax will happen"? Uhm... maybe just after you sniped all the broodlords? Really, that's just common sense. Also, using snipe on T1 units is kind of silly since T1 can be massed so easily. ya, but what does terran remax on? what if the battle goes 50/50 so you don't have that many vikings left, and instead of zerg remaxing on ultras, he just maxes out again on Bl/corrupter? It becomes too much of a guessing game for terrans and will likely result in many scenarios where the terrans just auto lose because they weren't able to divine what the zerg were gonna go =/
with current metagame, terran remaxes army with marines and late game supplements with vikings, ghosts or tanks not all 3 because of gas restrictions
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On February 11 2012 08:15 SpeCtor wrote:
to be fair, when a zergs infestors all get emped and then marine stim underneath broodlords. Its game anyway. Maybe broodlords won't melt so quickly. This is coming from a Terran/Toss player.
When zerg gets all infestors emp'ed, they pretty much deserve to lose.
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While I believe that Snipe was (in the past) a very powerful spell, very much limitting the zerg's abilities for T3 units to deal a lot of damage, I believe that Snipe is an integral part of "rush strategies" and innovation into the game. Therefore, I believe that reducing the damage of snipe to 25 against normal units is not a viable option. I believe it should deal the same 45 damage towards all units; but against massive units, it should deal 25 damage. This will allow for the same early aggression strategies with ghosts, and also allow Zerg T3 to be a viable and strong option.
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What an awesome patch. Well done blizzard!
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Phoenix change will hardly effect the pvz match up, fleet beacon 300/200 to purchase, then the upgrade, when do you even go fleet beacon on 2-3 base LOL.
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On February 11 2012 07:59 Gijian wrote:
When snipe can't even kill a zergling, the ghost should go back to the academy. Any early build with ghost just went out the window. Ghost counteract the ability of zerg late game fast transition between 2 widely different units. Without them, these transition just became dangerous. The nerf made it so that it's impossible to kill those high tier unit with Snipe. The amount of snipe needed to kill just ridiculous. This changes pretty much a way of blizzard saying. Delete snipe without actually deleting it.
Your logic is that by removing the early game viability of Snipe in order to defeat the insane late game imbalance it brings, it has been effectively deleted? Ghosts are insanely good vs biological units (can anyone tell me what percentage of Zerg unit compositions are biological?). They're amazing vs Ultralisks, Brood Lords, Infestors, Mutalisks, and Hydralisks--oh, hey, I just named every Zerg unit used predominantly in the mid-to-late game. Reducing Snipe's effect on bio makes Ghosts still incredibly good vs all of those units, but forces Terran to get more of them, making it less impossible for Zerg to win late game engagements without absolutely pitch perfect control and positioning while Terran just mouse-scrolls through every Brood Lord, by virtue of a new macro advantage in which Terran is having to sacrifice supply to a higher Ghost count. In theory, it sounds like a great solution.
Snipe should not be so good and so early-game accessible at the same time. You have to build a tech lab on your barracks (which any bio or marine play does anyway) and a ghost academy. Early infestors require a hasty lair and a pit, and fast templar require super fast council (which cannot be used for blink if you're going fast templar, and will instead have to be used for delayed charge) and a crazy fast archives/storm research. Snipe requires no research, cloak is optional based on the build (while storm and pathogen glands are much more important upgrades at the Protoss/Zerg tech structures). I'm not saying there should be a 1:1 correlation, but I don't think I'm wrong in saying that casters should be so accessible and so good so early.
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On February 11 2012 08:15 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:03 hunts wrote:On February 11 2012 07:51 Kiri wrote:
Wow!!!! Terrans are fcked late game TvZ imo.... Terrans were still beating Zs late game before they found out about mass snipe. that was before the fungal patch and broodlord/infestor compositions.
Nope after the fungal buff and Zs learned of infestor/BL Ts were still beating them before they learned of mass ghost snipe.
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This is dumb. How is terran supposed to win in late game? We can't keep up with zerg/toss macro. Basically we either have to all-in, or get lucky harass and ruin their economy.
I feel they're doing this because of terran's tournament success, well, that's the PLAYERS, not the race. I hope mvp or mma switches race and starts dominating.
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On February 11 2012 08:14 Louis8k8 wrote:
MULE gold mineral nerf: I totally support this. It really balances out the game as they said. The risk and the reward is now the same for all 3 races.
Snipe Damage Increase but split over two conditions: I think 2 snipe > infestor will break the game again. The ease to kill an infestor while having a lesser gas cost is too game breaking. The 11->21 shot to kill an ultralisk also seems to much. 30+15 imo. What unit exactly is Blizz wanting to kill in less snipes with the 5 extra damage? Is it really only infestor? Infestors aren't even that threatening any more with their past nerfs.
Phoenix +1 range upgrade: YES! I love the idea of having upgrades over plain stats. There's many pre-researched spells and certain traits that I wish were re searchable and not given for free. Because Protoss crumble to mass muta and not fast mutas, this research at the beacon (T3 tech) is fair appropriate. However, I wonder if even +1 range on phoenix will help against mass muta. While a zerg can easily replenish its army with completely mutalisks, a protoss cannot. And a high pheonix army is very frail and terrible against something like mass zerglings that follows up from mutalisk tech. I don't know if this upgrade is enough...
To be honest, I don't want +1 range. I want OVERLOAD back.
It's 200/100 for a ghost, 100/150 for infestor. If you want ghosts to cost more gas, then you should lower the mineral cost
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On February 11 2012 08:20 Mikey wrote:
Phoenix change will hardly effect the pvz match up, fleet beacon 300/200 to purchase, then the upgrade, when do you even go fleet beacon on 2-3 base LOL.
Replace your fleet beacon over templar and its around the same cost. You can still go blink.
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On February 11 2012 08:11 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:
SNIPE TEH INFESEWRS
Actually, I'm thinking of trying out Terran. Infestors are a pain in the ass for me, I'll love this patch.
Snipe already killed infestors with 2 snipes, same with high templar? Such a lame nerf
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On February 11 2012 08:14 poor newb wrote:
ghosts wipes out 200/200 late game zerg army in 2 seconds with snipe
david kim: nah, that's just "slightly" too strong
6 phoenix dies to 20 mutas because the toss cant micro
david kim: omfg nerf nerf nerf, give phoenix +100 range
User was temp banned for this post.
Rofl so sick of people commenting with absolutely 0 experience in a MU. You want to wipe out a 200/200 Z army with just gosts you'll need 20+ all with full energy and cloak. In fact the zerg army would die much quicker to 20 full energy high templar lol, especially if it was mass brood lord like is so often the case. And you are right pheonix already crush muta with good micro, but as is the trend any sort of hard mechanic gets taken out of the game.
What I don't understand is who is Dkim asking for feedback? Its pretty obvious to me on the NA ladder Z don't have problem with T in the lategame, more like the contrary. Why don't they just let GSL focus on the GSL, (like when they removed gold from their maps) and not make changes just for the GSL but that affect everybody.
O yeah, and My massive Pet Peeve I forgot to talk about earlier is Ultras. Nearly everyone thinks ultras are garbage because they watch the GSL. Yes stalkers do easily kill ultras. But as a T you can't just warp in Maraduers. At best unless you scouted it far in advance you will only have reactors and a few techlabs. When the ultras hit if you have only marines, with 1-2 fungals you will get massacred, even with a decent split.
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I don't think phoenixes needed a range buff, especially with Code S GSL zergs AND tosses saying zvp is too hard, but let's see how it plays out.
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On February 11 2012 08:19 NNTP wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:17 OwNaGeForce wrote:On February 11 2012 08:13 MrTng wrote:On February 11 2012 08:07 NNTP wrote:
Ghost was good because it offers a very good unit vs T3 Zerg. Reason for which is that Zerg can force mass viking with broodlords then remax with ultras and since he would have 3/3 melee armour for zerglings and banelings anyway the ultras will have 3/4 or 3/5 if carapace was researched. then the vikings are pointless then.
If you survive the blords you can recycle your ghosts on ultras which makes the ghosts cost effective (they cost a lot in time and resources).
Now terrans have to mix it up and figure out when that remax will happen and wether it is a remax under flyer or armored ground form.
Perhaps there will be more mech play late game? I don't know!! i am okay with reducing damage vs armored units like ultras which realistically makes sense. A sniper round is not supposed to be a RPG blast lol but a sniper round that cant 1 shot kill someone is pointless. Before ghosts could 1 shot kill marines without combat shields and stimmed marines. Now it is rendered pointless to snipe T1 units. You could also drop stimmed marines and 1-2 ghosts to snipe scv and drones now adding that ghost in is kind of pointless... or maybe still drop it in to emp the orbital command then cloak/hide pick up marines and nuke when army redeploys somewhere else?? "Figure out when remax will happen"? Uhm... maybe just after you sniped all the broodlords? Really, that's just common sense. Also, using snipe on T1 units is kind of silly since T1 can be massed so easily. ya, but what does terran remax on? what if the battle goes 50/50 so you don't have that many vikings left, and instead of zerg remaxing on ultras, he just maxes out again on Bl/corrupter? It becomes too much of a guessing game for terrans and will likely result in many scenarios where the terrans just auto lose because they weren't able to divine what the zerg were gonna go =/ with current metagame, terran remaxes army with marines and late game supplements with vikings, ghosts or tanks not all 3 because of gas restrictions
right, that's what I'm saying. If the patch goes threw like it is, then the composition you just described will die to an ultra based army. After a big battle, terran will need to either guess or get lucky with scans to see what zerg are going, but if zerg have both an ultralisk cavern and a greater spire up, you basically have to wait until ultras are popping or tons of corrupters are flying around to know if you should be investing in vikings or marauders. Terran can't remax that fast. They'll have to guess after each battle what units to make to counter a perceived zerg tech switch, which seems kind of ridiculous to me
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To my fellow terran's. The ghost nerf will make it so that instead of the entire ultra/brood army dying in 2-4 seconds, only half of then do. Unless of course you match them 1 ghost per ultra/broodlord. Then the Zerg army will still die as fast anyway.
What made snipe good was its low cooldown, not its 45 damage.
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Good thing about the MULE, but i think that the snipe nerf is kinda harsh.
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Hmmmmm. Well, this seems like a pretty big change. Will terrans still want to go ghosts late game tvz? Obviously ghosts are still great against infestors, but will they be worthwhile against broodlords/ultras with the snipe nerf or will Vikings still be the answer? If not, it definitely makes EMP and snipe a bit redundant.
Over all though, a pretty solid change. I still think gold bases should just go, but I guess blizzard doesn't want to remove a mechanic they put in, even if it has failed
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Is it wrong if my favourite change is the APM change?
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I haven't played a TvP in my life, although I have watched a fair few.
Would it be a viable strategy with this new buff to use phoenix to snipe medivacs (or even vikings considering the speed difference) before a main engagement?
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EPT
