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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 08:57 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:51 Elyvilon wrote:
So even ignoring the rest, what are you using PDD against vs late-game protoss? Their 10 stalkers? it doesn't do anything against chargelots, archons, colossi, or templar That's a great point, actually. PDDs are great for blink stalker heavy comps, but I guess you don't really see that anymore. I see TvP Ravens when Terrans are smart enough to realize that they get so much more marine production if they can build and protect a single Raven. Suddenly, that's so much energy you don't have to spend scanning for DTs or baneling bombs, depending on your matchup.
Except they're much more expensive and fragile than any other form of detection. Sure, if you keep them around your ground units, they won't die to stupid sniping by blink stalkers or phoenixes, but they get 1 shotted by HTs. That's not very effective. For Zerg, you don't ever see hydras and muta threat isn't from attack damage, but instead from attacking where you're not. What a Raven ends up being in the long run isn't an investment at all, but rather a gamble, regardless of the non-mirror matchup.
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Hmm dont agree with the snipe reduction.. i feel that will make late game tvz pretty hard.
Wouldve loved to seen some sort of fix for the late game tvp issues.. especially chargelot archon HT colossi ball.. seems impossible to beat without good micro and macro. not all of us are professional standards so making the late game play a little less dependent on micro alone would be awesome.
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Do you think that the Snipe change will actually make it to the release version of the patch in its current form after Blizz sees the feedback and mulls some stuff over?
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I don't know how to feel about this patch change. Don't know if the range upgrade will do much to counter mutas since the phoenixes won't come out fast enough if you try to build them re-actively. Guess will have to wait and see how the changes play out.
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As a terran who plays leisurely and not competitively, the ghost nerf is going to make my late game against z near impossible to win as I am forced to get maruders and viking, in which if the zerg tech swtches between ultra and bl, its going to be impossible to stop
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On February 11 2012 09:03 kKagari wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:58 shizna wrote:On February 11 2012 08:46 Shantastic wrote:
Ravens and Ghosts are still really good vs late game zerg. You're looking at it wrong.
Each race has two casters.
Zerg has the Overseer, which is useless in engagements (as it should be) and good for scouting/just being annoying, and the Infestor, which is this really good, cost-effective unit with two incredibly powerful, versatile abilities that, for a large price, increase the cost-efficiency of your army composition.
Protoss has Templar, which are really great vs any composition involving bio, and solidly increase Protoss deathball efficiency. Protoss also has Sentries, which are great against heavy bio compositions, as well as vs heavy roach/ling compositions, the likes of which you see early-to-midgame. However, more than 2-3 sentries just aren't that good in late game, simply because of the range of EMP making FFs useless and the fact that in the late game, Zerg tends towards higher ranged, higher punch units, leaving Roaches as the "throwaway" late-game unit that costs only 25 gas and is designed to soak up the hurt, so to speak.
Terran has both Ravens and Ghosts. Ravens have PDD, which is always effective vs late-game protoss, and Hunter Seeker Missile, which places constraints on the way Zerg controls and makes units, heavily punishing any kind of clumping. The dynamic of casters should work such that Ghosts and Ravens are individually less effective than Infestors and Templar late-game, but, since they cost more supply combined, are more effective than either of them when you combine them together, which I think is true, simply due to the lack of redundancy between the ways Ghosts and Ravens contribute. Ravens contribute towards forcing Zerg to look at mobility and positioning, while Ghosts are all-around good vs any lategame composition, with EMP, nuke (which is mostly great for map control, but also nifty for engagements if you're MouzThorzain =D), and snipes. hi i'm a high templar, i can deal 80 damage over 4 seconds to an entire area for 75 energy. hi i'm an infestor, i can deal 30-40 damage and trap units in place over an entire area for 75 energy hi i'm a ghost, i'm more expensive than infestor and high templar, i can deal 75 damage over 1 second to a single biological unit for 75 energy. but at least in TvP i am actually useful! :F Hiiiiiii, I'm a ghost used correctly, I can go invisible for length amounts of time and snipe overseers before they can see me, then proceed to do incredible damage to the rest of the zerg army by firing nuclear missiles. :F
Since snipe won't do as much dmg, the anti-overseer strat might not work 
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On February 11 2012 09:05 Elp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:00 Shiori wrote:
Not sure how Terran is supposed to deal with BL/Infestor now. Mass Viking/Thor? Lol... I think we'll finally see the Raven-HSM / Viking combination where you fire HSM's on your own vikings and suicide them into the Broodlord / Corruptor ball. That'll fix the HSM range problem. It's gonna be epic!
Only before they get Neural Parasited and fly right back to you!
OH SHIT NOW I SAID IT OUT LOUD
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On February 11 2012 09:03 kKagari wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:58 shizna wrote:On February 11 2012 08:46 Shantastic wrote:
Ravens and Ghosts are still really good vs late game zerg. You're looking at it wrong.
Each race has two casters.
Zerg has the Overseer, which is useless in engagements (as it should be) and good for scouting/just being annoying, and the Infestor, which is this really good, cost-effective unit with two incredibly powerful, versatile abilities that, for a large price, increase the cost-efficiency of your army composition.
Protoss has Templar, which are really great vs any composition involving bio, and solidly increase Protoss deathball efficiency. Protoss also has Sentries, which are great against heavy bio compositions, as well as vs heavy roach/ling compositions, the likes of which you see early-to-midgame. However, more than 2-3 sentries just aren't that good in late game, simply because of the range of EMP making FFs useless and the fact that in the late game, Zerg tends towards higher ranged, higher punch units, leaving Roaches as the "throwaway" late-game unit that costs only 25 gas and is designed to soak up the hurt, so to speak.
Terran has both Ravens and Ghosts. Ravens have PDD, which is always effective vs late-game protoss, and Hunter Seeker Missile, which places constraints on the way Zerg controls and makes units, heavily punishing any kind of clumping. The dynamic of casters should work such that Ghosts and Ravens are individually less effective than Infestors and Templar late-game, but, since they cost more supply combined, are more effective than either of them when you combine them together, which I think is true, simply due to the lack of redundancy between the ways Ghosts and Ravens contribute. Ravens contribute towards forcing Zerg to look at mobility and positioning, while Ghosts are all-around good vs any lategame composition, with EMP, nuke (which is mostly great for map control, but also nifty for engagements if you're MouzThorzain =D), and snipes. hi i'm a high templar, i can deal 80 damage over 4 seconds to an entire area for 75 energy. hi i'm an infestor, i can deal 30-40 damage and trap units in place over an entire area for 75 energy hi i'm a ghost, i'm more expensive than infestor and high templar, i can deal 75 damage over 1 second to a single biological unit for 75 energy. but at least in TvP i am actually useful! :F Hiiiiiii, I'm a ghost used correctly, I can go invisible for length amounts of time and snipe overseers before they can see me, then proceed to do incredible damage to the rest of the zerg army by firing nuclear missiles. :F
1. fungal growth > cloak...
2. infestor can move around while burrowed and doesn't spend energy to do so.
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On February 11 2012 09:06 lessQQmorePEWPEW wrote:
Hmm dont agree with the snipe reduction.. i feel that will make late game tvz pretty hard.
Wouldve loved to seen some sort of fix for the late game tvp issues.. especially chargelot archon HT colossi ball.. seems impossible to beat without good micro and macro. not all of us are professional standards so making the late game play a little less dependent on micro alone would be awesome.
A lot of compositions are impossible to beat without good micro and macro. That's the whole point of starcraft, it's difficult. No matter what race you play.
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I think the changes in this patch are going to be really good. I'm mostly excited to see the change in Phoenix play across all matchups. Also very happy to see that T won't be able to Snipe down the whole Z Hive tech, and that Z won't be able to totally DOMINATE against P on most of the maps in our current pool.
Props to Blizzard for the reasonable changes at a reasonable time. yay for the classic APM count!!! now the Razer headsets make sense again 
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United States550 Posts
How are we Terrans honestly supposed to compete against tier 3 zerg now? I really don't mean to sound whiney... I just don't understand how we're supposed to deal with Broodlord infestor now b/c vikings are not effective at all against a zerg with decent control of his infestors. Thank goodness I at least found out about the scroll wheel snipe trick... will no doubt need it now. If the snipe damage change remains, I'd like a buff for viking air-to-air damage. Ultras would still be good and Broodlord/infestor would still be manageable as terran with two shotting infestors and having the vikings be better against the BLs.
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Well i still feel like 2xStarport Viking Production is still "good" enough to encounter the BL's and for the Ultras well "some" Marauders in the mix between 3/3 Marines should be still fine i guess.. ( 3/3 Upgrades because you talked from the Endgame State )
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On February 11 2012 09:05 TheHova wrote:
Ghosts do more dps than both a stimmed marine and marauder even without snipe right? I'm sure i saw that somewhere. I remember DeMusliM talking about how their basic attack is actually pretty good even without snipe.
It does 6.7/13.3 dps. rauder does 10/20 dps and rine does... well more.
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On February 11 2012 09:05 Elp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:00 Shiori wrote:
Not sure how Terran is supposed to deal with BL/Infestor now. Mass Viking/Thor? Lol... I think we'll finally see the Raven-HSM / Viking combination where you fire HSM's on your own vikings and suicide them into the Broodlord / Corruptor ball. That'll fix the HSM range problem. It's gonna be epic!
LOL Kamikaze units, vikings the new Scourge units of sc2 for the Terran instead of zerg lol do the viking pilots drink sake and wear a bandana with the terran dominion flag on under their helmets just before deployment ?  sounds intresting but i think fungal will stop this tactic lol plus costs too much for suiciding vikings and raven energy charge time
*edit* actually suiciding stimmed rines with HSM following them sounds more cost effective and they are faster than vikings when stimmed... might try it out. Will let you guys know how the Suicide bomber marine tactic works out lol
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XiGua, i am pretty sure overseer is psionic, so ghost will actually do more damage to it
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On February 11 2012 08:58 shizna wrote:
hi i'm a high templar, i can deal 80 damage over 4 seconds to an entire area for 75 energy.
hi i'm an infestor, i can deal 30-40 damage and trap units in place for 4 seconds over an entire area for 75 energy
hi i'm a ghost, i'm more expensive than infestor and high templar, i can deal 75 damage over 1 second to a single biological unit for 75 energy. but at least in TvP i am actually useful!
:F
obviously blizzard want to see what effect this change has on high level TvZ. personally i think it will be massive overkill and also make terran more linear and dull to play... but lets wait and see.
You quoted my post but addressed absolutely nothing having anything to do with the content of it, and in fact, you continued simply to reiterate the point I was responding to...
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On February 11 2012 09:09 moskonia wrote:XiGua, i am pretty sure overseer is psionic, so ghost will actually do more damage to it
Overseers aren't psionic.
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United States13143 Posts
On February 11 2012 09:09 moskonia wrote:XiGua, i am pretty sure overseer is psionic, so ghost will actually do more damage to it
Nope!
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On February 11 2012 09:07 Bommes wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:05 Elp wrote:On February 11 2012 09:00 Shiori wrote:
Not sure how Terran is supposed to deal with BL/Infestor now. Mass Viking/Thor? Lol... I think we'll finally see the Raven-HSM / Viking combination where you fire HSM's on your own vikings and suicide them into the Broodlord / Corruptor ball. That'll fix the HSM range problem. It's gonna be epic! Only before they get Neural Parasited and fly right back to you! OH SHIT NOW I SAID IT OUT LOUD
rofl yeah... the answer is that terran have to evolve into slayers boxer (in his prime)
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looks good to me but i wonder how much they actually tested these changes before making it go live. It's been awhile since they used ptr before using it live, so its only logical that the blizzard balance team is keeping in contact and asking opinions of korean pros.
I wonder how many of the kids posting and complaining here are pros...
For ZvT lategame, once 10+ ghosts enter field, they annihilate zerg T3, and before another wave comes, they regen mana
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EPT
