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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 11 2012 09:05 XiGua wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:58 Bommes wrote:On February 11 2012 08:50 Roblin wrote:On February 11 2012 08:06 Bagi wrote:
The reason I dislike this snipe change is because its probably the first time they are REMOVING the role an unit has in the army. To this date most balance changes have been small so that a certain unit would be a little more viable or a little weaker in its designated rule. With this change Blizzard is basically saying "you can only use the ghost against casters", which in my opinion is way too radical of a change and wrecks the entire metagame of this match-up.
I also have a problem with making snipe an anti-caster ability. The ghost already has EMP, that's about as anti-caster as you can get. Its completely redundant.
I think there are some fixed they could do to snipe that would be much more reasonable. Simply making the ability NOT ignore armor would be a decent nerf and help units like the ultralisk. Are there even zergs out there that are really struggling lategame ZvT? lets say 50 larvae of zerglings attacks! (100 zerglings) ghosts have instant attacks (no overkill) ghosts 2-shot zerglings (10+10light damage= 20 damage/shot, 20*2 = 40 > 35) which means 15 zerglings will die every volley. after 7 volleys all zerglings are dead. note, if 7 volleys are launched, we wait for 6 cooldowns. 6 * (cooldown = 1.5) = 9 30 ghosts kill 100 zerglings in literaly 9 ingame seconds. I don't want to argue about how strong ghosts are but I really don't see your point there. 30 Ghosts costs are 6000 minerals and 2000 gas. 100 zerglings costs are 2500 minerals. Ghosts have bonus damage against zerglings. What do you expect? What is your point with this? His point is to mindlessly whine about how his race is so much weaker than the others. 44% snipe nerf hurts the Terran heart... I won't use ghosts TvZ anymore. 
It's a 67%/73% nerf against bl/ultra(though ultra might be a little less since stuff is most of the time helping the snipes unlike against BLs)
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I think it was obvious that ghost snipe needed to be nerfed, but i think this is a bit too harsh.
Would have perferred if they just reduced the range of snipe (i know that sorta destroys thepoint of snipe but ya..) the fact that the ghosts had the same range as brood lords made the main point of brood lords (to beable to force terran siege tanks out of position) almost pointless as ghosts could snipe safely under siege tanks.
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I would say that protoss has way more "casters" than any race. They all have abilities. I would count blink, charge, storm, force field/guardian shield, and even the vortex.
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As a Terran, I'm not too happy about the snipe change, but he, time to find a new counter to late game zerg. 
Happy for the APM change though, wont miss the zero apm in the first 3 minutes.
One simple question, wouldnt it make much more sense to make snipe only less effective against massive? I mean, BL and Ultras would be save. Additionally with that change they kill all the possibilities for early game ghosts in TvT and snipe against banes. YES i used snipe against banes sometimes.
Nonetheless, definitely pumped for the changes.
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On February 11 2012 09:05 aksfjh wrote:
Except they're much more expensive and fragile than any other form of detection. Sure, if you keep them around your ground units, they won't die to stupid sniping by blink stalkers or phoenixes, but they get 1 shotted by HTs. That's not very effective. For Zerg, you don't ever see hydras and muta threat isn't from attack damage, but instead from attacking where you're not. What a Raven ends up being in the long run isn't an investment at all, but rather a gamble, regardless of the non-mirror matchup.
Well, considering that you're only using them for detection, just keep putting down auto-turrets for no reason, and Feedback will become useless.
DTs and burrowed banelings either kill tons of stuff or force a good Terran to cut marine production rate by scanning. Getting a single Raven keeps your army safe from all cloak/burrowed play and lets you Rine up in the long run.
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On February 11 2012 09:05 Elp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:00 Shiori wrote:
Not sure how Terran is supposed to deal with BL/Infestor now. Mass Viking/Thor? Lol... I think we'll finally see the Raven-HSM / Viking combination where you fire HSM's on your own vikings and suicide them into the Broodlord / Corruptor ball. That'll fix the HSM range problem. It's gonna be epic!
omg this is actually hilarious and I want to see someone do this
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On February 11 2012 09:05 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:58 shizna wrote:On February 11 2012 08:46 Shantastic wrote:
Ravens and Ghosts are still really good vs late game zerg. You're looking at it wrong.
Each race has two casters.
Zerg has the Overseer, which is useless in engagements (as it should be) and good for scouting/just being annoying, and the Infestor, which is this really good, cost-effective unit with two incredibly powerful, versatile abilities that, for a large price, increase the cost-efficiency of your army composition.
Protoss has Templar, which are really great vs any composition involving bio, and solidly increase Protoss deathball efficiency. Protoss also has Sentries, which are great against heavy bio compositions, as well as vs heavy roach/ling compositions, the likes of which you see early-to-midgame. However, more than 2-3 sentries just aren't that good in late game, simply because of the range of EMP making FFs useless and the fact that in the late game, Zerg tends towards higher ranged, higher punch units, leaving Roaches as the "throwaway" late-game unit that costs only 25 gas and is designed to soak up the hurt, so to speak.
Terran has both Ravens and Ghosts. Ravens have PDD, which is always effective vs late-game protoss, and Hunter Seeker Missile, which places constraints on the way Zerg controls and makes units, heavily punishing any kind of clumping. The dynamic of casters should work such that Ghosts and Ravens are individually less effective than Infestors and Templar late-game, but, since they cost more supply combined, are more effective than either of them when you combine them together, which I think is true, simply due to the lack of redundancy between the ways Ghosts and Ravens contribute. Ravens contribute towards forcing Zerg to look at mobility and positioning, while Ghosts are all-around good vs any lategame composition, with EMP, nuke (which is mostly great for map control, but also nifty for engagements if you're MouzThorzain =D), and snipes. hi i'm a high templar, i can deal 80 damage over 4 seconds to an entire area for 75 energy. hi i'm an infestor, i can deal 30-40 damage and trap units in place for 4 seconds over an entire area for 75 energy hi i'm a ghost, i'm more expensive than infestor and high templar, i can deal 75 damage over 1 second to a single biological unit for 75 energy. but at least in TvP i am actually useful! :F Yes, retarded comparisons are always the way to go in a balance thread. Especially comparing units across tech tiers - do the mothership, broodlord and scv comparison next please!
There is nothing at all "retarded" with those comparisons. Those casters are commonly regarded as equivalent for each of the races because of similar cost and tech.
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On February 11 2012 09:13 KrazyTrumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:05 Elp wrote:On February 11 2012 09:00 Shiori wrote:
Not sure how Terran is supposed to deal with BL/Infestor now. Mass Viking/Thor? Lol... I think we'll finally see the Raven-HSM / Viking combination where you fire HSM's on your own vikings and suicide them into the Broodlord / Corruptor ball. That'll fix the HSM range problem. It's gonna be epic! omg this is actually hilarious and I want to see someone do this
Or the zerg could neural parasite the viking and fly it back into you. o,o
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I think a lot of players are taking this snipe thing totally out of proportion. The point is that ghosts aren't meant to be a hard counter to tier 3 zerg. infestor broodlord is not an easy composition to battle head on. Watch a late game PvZ, when Z gets infestor broodlord the best strategy toss has is to blink around sniping bases since infestor broodlord is so slow. Besides, range 9 vikings and EMP will still be quite effective.
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On February 11 2012 09:13 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:05 aksfjh wrote:
Except they're much more expensive and fragile than any other form of detection. Sure, if you keep them around your ground units, they won't die to stupid sniping by blink stalkers or phoenixes, but they get 1 shotted by HTs. That's not very effective. For Zerg, you don't ever see hydras and muta threat isn't from attack damage, but instead from attacking where you're not. What a Raven ends up being in the long run isn't an investment at all, but rather a gamble, regardless of the non-mirror matchup. Well, considering that you're only using them for detection, just keep putting down auto-turrets for no reason, and Feedback will become useless. DTs and burrowed banelings either kill tons of stuff or force a good Terran to cut marine production rate by scanning. Getting a single Raven keeps your army safe from all cloak/burrowed play and lets you Rine up in the long run.
That is, until your slow-ass raven gets picked off either the first engagement he gets in or just by stray mutalisks or blink stalkers.
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Maybe higher cooldown and a minor increase in snipe manacost would have been better... it feels sort of ridiculous that the only counter to broodlords will be vikings now? especially since they are so weak to ultras and infestors, on the other hand i support the nerf because it's just absurd that ghost snipe can melt entire zerg armies of broodlords and ultras.
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United States13143 Posts
On February 11 2012 09:13 Shantastic wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:05 aksfjh wrote:
Except they're much more expensive and fragile than any other form of detection. Sure, if you keep them around your ground units, they won't die to stupid sniping by blink stalkers or phoenixes, but they get 1 shotted by HTs. That's not very effective. For Zerg, you don't ever see hydras and muta threat isn't from attack damage, but instead from attacking where you're not. What a Raven ends up being in the long run isn't an investment at all, but rather a gamble, regardless of the non-mirror matchup. Well, considering that you're only using them for detection, just keep putting down auto-turrets for no reason, and Feedback will become useless. DTs and burrowed banelings either kill tons of stuff or force a good Terran to cut marine production rate by scanning. Getting a single Raven keeps your army safe from all cloak/burrowed play and lets you Rine up in the long run.
fantastic, we can get a cloakless observer with a drawback for 100/200 if only we equip a tech lab to a starport.
I mean, I still do it, and I still think it's worth it, but only just barely and I can totally understand why someone better than me wouldn't.
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I wouldn't mind ghosts being really really strong vs Broodlords if they also were not so strong vs Ultras.
I would like to see ultras more often in ZvT. Say if ghosts only countered broodlords (as well as they do now), but ghosts where relatively useless vs ultras. This could bring really nice tech switches and might be interesting to see.
Marauders are still strong vs ultralisks, but with possibly tech switches between broods and ultras terran will need to switch between marauders and ghosts. Could be nice to see?
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On February 11 2012 09:15 nttea wrote:
Maybe higher cooldown and a minor increase in snipe manacost would have been better... it feels sort of ridiculous that the only counter to broodlords will be vikings now? especially since they are so weak to ultras and infestors, on the other hand i support the nerf because it's just absurd that ghost snipe can melt entire zerg armies of broodlords and ultras.
Buff BCs.
Problem; SOLVED.
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I wonder if with the ghost nerf, pros will move back to Vikings to counter Broodlords? I'm curious to see how this plays out!
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I really appreciate how David gives an explanation behind each change and not just listing what they're planning the change. Thank's Blizzard
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On February 11 2012 09:05 XiGua wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 08:58 Bommes wrote:On February 11 2012 08:50 Roblin wrote:On February 11 2012 08:06 Bagi wrote:
The reason I dislike this snipe change is because its probably the first time they are REMOVING the role an unit has in the army. To this date most balance changes have been small so that a certain unit would be a little more viable or a little weaker in its designated rule. With this change Blizzard is basically saying "you can only use the ghost against casters", which in my opinion is way too radical of a change and wrecks the entire metagame of this match-up.
I also have a problem with making snipe an anti-caster ability. The ghost already has EMP, that's about as anti-caster as you can get. Its completely redundant.
I think there are some fixed they could do to snipe that would be much more reasonable. Simply making the ability NOT ignore armor would be a decent nerf and help units like the ultralisk. Are there even zergs out there that are really struggling lategame ZvT? lets say 50 larvae of zerglings attacks! (100 zerglings) ghosts have instant attacks (no overkill) ghosts 2-shot zerglings (10+10light damage= 20 damage/shot, 20*2 = 40 > 35) which means 15 zerglings will die every volley. after 7 volleys all zerglings are dead. note, if 7 volleys are launched, we wait for 6 cooldowns. 6 * (cooldown = 1.5) = 9 30 ghosts kill 100 zerglings in literaly 9 ingame seconds. I don't want to argue about how strong ghosts are but I really don't see your point there. 30 Ghosts costs are 6000 minerals and 2000 gas. 100 zerglings costs are 2500 minerals. Ghosts have bonus damage against zerglings. What do you expect? What is your point with this? His point is to mindlessly whine about how his race is so much weaker than the others. 44% snipe nerf hurts the Terran heart... I won't use ghosts TvZ anymore.
my point is that some pages back (like page 80 or something, didn't check) someone claimed that if a terran gets a bunch of ghosts you should get zerglings as a zerg
I believe he said: "fight T3 with T1, as terrans fought everything with marines"
and he claimed that attacking with 100 zerglings would kill ghosts.
my point is that zerglings dont kill ghosts.
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As terran i agree that snipe needed to be nerfed, but this is a bit much.. Why not just nerf it against brood/ultra specifically? or just make it do less damage against armored.. that makes sense, armored things taking more of a punch.
I hope they at least raise the base damage a little bit before making this patch go live. enough to at least 1 shot lings and banes
The rest of the changes are OK. i like them.
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Fucking great. This is was snipe is supposed to be about: Countering HT:s, not slaughtering a maxed zerg army. WD Blizz!
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On February 11 2012 09:18 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2012 09:05 XiGua wrote:On February 11 2012 08:58 Bommes wrote:On February 11 2012 08:50 Roblin wrote:On February 11 2012 08:06 Bagi wrote:
The reason I dislike this snipe change is because its probably the first time they are REMOVING the role an unit has in the army. To this date most balance changes have been small so that a certain unit would be a little more viable or a little weaker in its designated rule. With this change Blizzard is basically saying "you can only use the ghost against casters", which in my opinion is way too radical of a change and wrecks the entire metagame of this match-up.
I also have a problem with making snipe an anti-caster ability. The ghost already has EMP, that's about as anti-caster as you can get. Its completely redundant.
I think there are some fixed they could do to snipe that would be much more reasonable. Simply making the ability NOT ignore armor would be a decent nerf and help units like the ultralisk. Are there even zergs out there that are really struggling lategame ZvT? lets say 50 larvae of zerglings attacks! (100 zerglings) ghosts have instant attacks (no overkill) ghosts 2-shot zerglings (10+10light damage= 20 damage/shot, 20*2 = 40 > 35) which means 15 zerglings will die every volley. after 7 volleys all zerglings are dead. note, if 7 volleys are launched, we wait for 6 cooldowns. 6 * (cooldown = 1.5) = 9 30 ghosts kill 100 zerglings in literaly 9 ingame seconds. I don't want to argue about how strong ghosts are but I really don't see your point there. 30 Ghosts costs are 6000 minerals and 2000 gas. 100 zerglings costs are 2500 minerals. Ghosts have bonus damage against zerglings. What do you expect? What is your point with this? His point is to mindlessly whine about how his race is so much weaker than the others. 44% snipe nerf hurts the Terran heart... I won't use ghosts TvZ anymore. my point is that some pages back (like page 80 or something, didn't check) someone claimed that if a terran gets a bunch of ghosts you should get zerglings as a zerg I believe he said: "fight T3 with T1, as terrans fought everything with marines" and he claimed that attacking with 100 zerglings would kill ghosts. my point is that zerglings dont kill ghosts.
Dude, he said banelings.
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EPT
